Traveller families refusing to move to purpose built houses

byhookorbycrook

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Do you know the 16 families in question?

Toddle off to the nearest police station and let them know if you have information that any of the 16 families in question have mistreated their horses & ponies in these ways.

Ah but you're generalizing about an entire group of people. I know that.

You cannot keep a horse on the side of a road, you cannot keep a horse without some form of shelter. Do this16 families provide these things for their horses? Where do they ride them? Pretty sure that the answers are a) not in livery stables and b) not in arenas or on bridleways. I am also pretty sure they are used for sulky road racing, not for say dressage or showjumping.

I have a horse, I didn't buy one until I could to pay for its care, for making sure it gets proper veterinary attention, visits from the farrier and dentist. I don't go out at weekends, I don't go on foreign holidays, I use that money to pay for my horse's keep. He is chipped and has a passport, as per the law, I'd be interested to see if the horses above are.

LadyFenghuang

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

This made me laugh. Anyone who races their horses on the main roads, abandons wounded /dying horses or lets horses to starve on commonage can't really claim the moral high ground on animal welfare.

They don't have the resources or lifestyle to look after horses to the standard that modern stables and equestrianism now have made the norm. That's the truth.

It's not indicative of the way all travelers treat their animals. However looking after horses requires a lot of money space and knowledge. I don't think it would be possible for them to give the same level of care as a modern working livery yard, even one of the worst.

The ISPCA wants a sulkie racing ban. It would go underground though. They do it on roads ...they race horse and harness with CARS! It's nuts!

In other countries sulky racing is done only on specially constructed tracks only with horses. Here they do it on open roads and race the cars with pony and trap. Many horses have had to be euthanized.

I will read this story fully before I make up my mind. But you obviously cannot have horses in a residential area without proper facilities. But i will not jump to conclusions.

MathDebater

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

I appreciate that. However it is worth considering apart from this story for a moment travelers are a very hard persecuted group.

I think you mean prosecuted. They certainly are not persecuted. Quite the opposite!

irishgeo

pickarooney wrote: »

How many of youse would like to be told "feck off out of your house, Apple needs the space, we've built you a new space with a gym because you all love boxing. By the way, your pets can't come"

even if the pets were allowded they still want money to move.

must have got the notion of disturbance money from the civil serivce staff who demand the same thing.

Little CuChulainn

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Are you suggesting you can just change ethic background?

You can certainly change your ethnic identity in my opinion. Yes.

Well? Why are you not on a campsite yet? Didn't you want to sign-up?

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Do this16 families provide these things for their horses? Where do they ride them?

You tell me. You seem to think you know a lot about them, because you think you have the right to make generalizations about people based on their identity.

I have a horse, I didn't buy one until I could to pay for its care, for making sure it gets proper veterinary attention, visits from the farrier and dentist. I don't go out at weekends, I don't go on foreign holidays, I......

Listen. I... didn't ask for you autobiography.

byhookorbycrook

pickarooney wrote: »

. By the way, your pets can't come"

The "pets" are hardly goldfish. I don't keep my horse in the garden, because, guess what, it's not a place for him. I pay to have him kept in a stables. Nothing to stop these horses doing the same.
Oh and before someone does the culture thing, I am from an area where Vincent O' Brien and Johnjoe O' Neill grew up, home to the first ever steeplechase, the oldest horse fair in Europe etc. So it's my "culture" too but I make proper provision for my horse that I pay for myself.

MathDebater

Cormac... wrote: »

Eh no, it's to ensure that Guards can easily seal the place off if they need to do a raid as there's only 1 entrance/exit point

It costs the state 1273 EUR per day to have Gardai at the housing project site.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/security-at-hollyhill-traveller-project-cost-euro300k-322169.html

LadyFenghuang

MathDebater wrote: »

I think you mean prosecuted. They certainly are not persecuted. Quite the opposite!

I do ! Thank you!

kowloon

Cormac... wrote: »

No mention of the fact it's genuinely walled off like District 9 :pac:

Fooking prawns!

LadyFenghuang

kowloon wrote: »

Fooking prawns!

" I love watching you prawns die. "

Sorry had to! :-D

Nib

Leave the good for nothing parasites where they are and sell the houses to people in need at a reasonable rate, and I don't mean work shy single Mothers, people with families who are on a low wage.

LadyFenghuang

Nib wrote: »

Leave the good for nothing parasites where they are and sell the houses to people in need at a reasonable rate, and I don't mean work shy single Mothers, people with families who are on a low wage.

Can't we share?

Taxburden carrier

"Pets" might insinuate they were actually cared for

eviltwin

On the one hand I can kinda see where the travellers are coming from. I wouldn't be too happy about giving up my home to provide space for a company even if you gave me a nice new home down the road. I like my home. I wonder how much consultation there was with the travellers on this, were they objecting to this from the start or is this just a last minute money grabbing tactic. I wonder how much of that money to pay for the new houses we got from Apple.

Taxburden carrier

Taxburden carrier wrote: »

"Pets" might insinuate they were actually cared for

So if they don't care, why do the families want assurances about facilities for horses?

I mean, this new accommodation looks good to me. If I were living in a rundown caravan site with my kids, I'd love to move in. But some families won't move until their horses are looked after, i.e. putting their horses first.

And some genius concludes that these families don't care for their horses?

AlekSmart

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Do you know the 16 families in question?

Toddle off to the nearest police station and let them know if you have information that any of the 16 families in question have mistreated their horses & ponies in these ways.

Ah but you're generalizing about an entire group of people. I know that.

In fairness the generalization you speak of is rather well supported by many decades of experiences throughout the State in addition to the more recent ability to witness the action via Social Media.

I would also ask if this "Generalization" thing can occasionally work both ways.

Perhaps the biggest scandal here is that 300k security bill, which is presumably aa result of hostility to the new traveller site from non-travellers.

Presumably.....;)

MathDebater

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Do you know the 16 families in question?

Toddle off to the nearest police station and let them know if you have information that any of the 16 families in question have mistreated their horses & ponies in these ways.

Ah but you're generalizing about an entire group of people. I know that.

So did you.

Perhaps the biggest scandal here is that 300k security bill, which is presumably aa result of hostility to the new traveller site from non-travellers.

Are you taking the piss here? I know they are known as the rebels but even people from Cork wouldn't have the balls to mess with a traveller site.

MathDebater

eviltwin wrote: »

On the one hand I can kinda see where the travellers are coming from. I wouldn't be too happy about giving up my home to provide space for a company even if you gave me a nice new home down the road. I like my home. I wonder how much consultation there was with the travellers on this, were they objecting to this from the start or is this just a last minute money grabbing tactic. I wonder how much of that money to pay for the new houses we got from Apple.

The travellers are free to live where they like - once they pay for the house themselves.

endacl

anncoates wrote: »

Don't they cause regular disturbances for free? Why do they want to get paid for it?

Do they pay themselves disturbance money every time they up sticks and move?!?

Cee-Jay-Cee

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

I appreciate that. However it is worth considering apart from this story for a moment travelers are a very hard persecuted group. From Roma to Irish travelers.
.

Why do you think that is? Do you think people just dislike them for absolutely no reason and because they're from a different culture to us? No it's because the biggest majority of them are criminals who steal and rob at every opportunity. They break the law like its a natural entitlement for them. They are some of the richest people in society with huge amounts of unreckonable disposable income.

Now to finish I want to add that I do know travellers who are ordinary decent people who never bother or harm anyone but unfortunately that category of traveller are very few and far between.

LadyFenghuang

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

They don't have the resources or lifestyle to look after horses to the standard that modern stables and equestrianism now have made the norm. That's the truth.

But that's not indicative of cruelty.

In recent years , it has become popular in some quarters to return to a simpler model of horsemanship: suddenly as horse-people we seem to have realised that wintering-out our animals without rugs is nothing to be afraid of; horses have been doing it for millenia.

Personally, I see indoor stabling as an unfortunate necessity, to be avoided where possible. I think there is a great deal to be admired in the natural horsemanship I have personally witnessed amongst travellers, some of whom have a lot more in common with experienced yardowners and the old-fashioned trainers (in terms of their practical approach) than the more recent type of owner, the Celtic-Tiger-era, one-horse owner who keeps their only animal in livery, and is too easily alarmed at minor hazards like frost and rainfall.

MathDebater wrote: »

Are you taking the piss here? I know they are known as the rebels but even people from Cork wouldn't have the balls to mess with a traveller site.

There have been numerous attacks on traveller housing in the past few years; it tends to happen before the travellers move in

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/two-houses-burned-in-attack-on-traveller-complex-1.1314489

I thought it was obvious that the security was intended to protect the property from the settled community. I don't think the travellers are about to burn down the development that many of them are already willing to enter. The remaining travellers don't seem to be opposed to the development, they are simply looking for extra provisions.

LadyFenghuang

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Why do you think that is? Do you think people just dislike them for absolutely no reason and because they're from a different culture to us? No it's because the biggest majority of them are criminals who steal and rob at every opportunity. They break the law like its a natural entitlement for them. They are some of the richest people in society with huge amounts of unreckonable disposable income.

Now to finish I want to add that I do know travellers who are ordinary decent people who never bother or harm anyone but unfortunately that category of traveller are very few and far between.

The innocent should not be made to suffer because of the guilty. No matter what the ratio. And I have no idea of what it really is. We should not punish the good because of the bad otherwise what is the point of punishments? They cease to be punishments then.

Yes there is an element that is criminal. And unfortunately the guards don't seem too pushed about them.

If you punish everyone what to you do to the ACTUAL bad guys?

jackofalltrades

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You can certainly change your ethnic identity in my opinion. Yes.

Well? Why are you not on a campsite yet? Didn't you want to sign-up?

From Exchange House Ireland, who provide services to the traveller community.

Can one become a Traveller?
No, one can not become a Traveller; one has to be born into the community.

So no you can't just become a traveller.
I also remember seeing a documentary, and a traveller said that your grandmother has to be a traveller for you to be considered one.

Amirani

pickarooney wrote: »

How many of youse would like to be told "feck off out of your house, Apple needs the space, we've built you a new space with a gym because you all love boxing. By the way, your pets can't come"

They don't own the house or the land they're currently occupying. Bit of a difference.

cloud493

Whats disturbance money?

LadyFenghuang

cloud493 wrote: »

Whats disturbance money?

I have never heard of that phrase either?

PauloMN

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Surely that's because of settled people who don't want the site located there.

There have been a number of well-publicised instances of attacks on properties intended for traveller accommodation by members of the settled community.

Perhaps the biggest scandal here is that 300k security bill, which is presumably aa result of hostility to the new traveller site from non-travellers.

Well, unless Mr. Stokes, father of 9 and owner of 4 horses is a hostile non-traveller, I think you are mistaken:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/man-threatens-to-destroy-new-euro5m-traveller-facility-330451.html?utm_source=link&utm_medium=click&utm_campaign=recirc

How many concessions need to be made, how much tax-payers money needs to be pumped into this "ethnic minority" before someone in government says enough is enough? €300k on security because some headcase threatens to destroy a €5m development that other travellers are refusing to move into? Finest example of political correctness gone mad right there.

What about the discrimination against those who pumped taxes into the State buying houses privately with hard-earned, heavily taxed incomes? Who had to sit in unfinished estates in houses that were poorly finished, while other groups who contribute nothing to society had houses finished to perfect standards? Those who pay water charges, property tax and every other tax under the sun only to see it pissed away on security for brand new developments like this one? Some pretty bad discrimination right there, but hey, it's ok, because those hard working families don't have a convenient little ethnic minority label to hide behind.

cloud493

cloud493 wrote: »

Whats disturbance money?

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

I have never heard of that phrase either?

I've never heard of it outside the work place. Some people can be compensated if they have to transfer to the likes of a new building in a company. Happened in a place I worked in. About 40 senior members of staff were given a few grand to move to another building 100 yards down the road in the same business park for a few years. It was a joke where I worked and a bigger joke in this situation

Streetwalker

Stereotypes, there must be more to life than stereotypes.

If they gave these homes to homeless people, then how much would that reduce the homeless rate in Cork? People are saying they're purpose-built for travellers - what does this mean exactly? Do travellers have special housing conditions?

c_man

The poor guys, I feel for them. How about instead of "disturbance money", we allow them to claim a decent rebate from their paid income tax from the past few years?

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

If they gave these homes to homeless people, then how much would that reduce the homeless rate in Cork? People are saying they're purpose-built for travellers - what does this mean exactly? Do travellers have special housing conditions?

Traveller specific accommodation is built a different spec than normal social housing, it's built for specific families usually and won't be offered as housing to the settled community

mikeym

I want purpose built boards.ie homes for every member of After Hours!!!!


Dont pay your taxes and claim everything.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Traveller specific accommodation is built a different spec than normal social housing, it's built for specific families usually and won't be offered as housing to the settled community

So if they keep refusing, hand it over to somebody that will actually use it. Problem solved. Easy.

Dick phelan

Why don't they pay for their own fuc kin horses, seriously it astounds me that some people think we should pay for other people's luxuries like owning a horse, Travelers are complete wasters who do nothing for anyone and expect everything to be handed to them. A large section of them are criminals and cause nothing but problems for the decent people in society, i'll probably get labelled a racist by some left wing uber liberal arsehole funny how those who defend these scum are never the ones who are unfortunate enough to live near them, in my entire life i have never once had a positive experience with travellers and that is literally the only minority group in the country i can say that about. It's not racist to point out that someones way of life simply is not acceptable in the world today and it's not up to the hard working people to pay for others "culture"

PauloMN

eviltwin wrote: »

Traveller specific accommodation is built a different spec than normal social housing, it's built for specific families usually and won't be offered as housing to the settled community

Why though? If the State is to provide accommodation for its citizens, why treat one group differently to another group? Travellers want to be accepted by society, but that works both ways.

Standard social housing as provided elsewhere should be provided to travellers - no special treatment. Special treatment for one group discriminates against others. I have absolutely no problem if people want to keep horses etc., but they do that at their own expense and using private facilities like everyone else has to, and within the law like everyone else has to.

Bowlardo

Dick phelan wrote: »

, i'll probably get labelled a racist by some left wing uber liberal arsehole

They are not a race they are an ethnic group.

Axel Lamp

They'll only wreck the houses anyway. Scumbags.

LadyFenghuang

PauloMN wrote: »

Standard social housing as provided elsewhere should be provided to travellers - no special treatment.

It's generally not though. And in fact most of the issues are settled people not wanting them living near them.

Would you consent to these houses being built near where you live?

THAT is a huge problem. Settled people don't want travelers in their neighborhoods. Not ever the decent ones. Market value suffers and the fact that it does should speak for how we look at them.

eviltwin

PauloMN wrote: »

Why though? If the State is to provide accommodation for its citizens, why treat one group differently to another group? Travellers want to be accepted by society, but that works both ways.

Standard social housing as provided elsewhere should be provided to travellers - no special treatment. Special treatment for one group discriminates against others. I have absolutely no problem if people want to keep horses etc., but they do that at their own expense and using private facilities like everyone else has to, and within the law like everyone else has to.

They have special needs apparently :rolleyes:

mikemac1

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

By the way, afaik this is the site the travellers currently live in, in case anyone thinks they've been living in the lap of luxury
http://www.newstalk.com/Irelands-Shantytown

So the laneway to school is overgrown

A slash hook, a strimmer and some weed spray and two men would clear that in a morning.

There are volunteers working away in rural parishes all over Ireland for tidy towns. Are all the residents in the halting bone idle

Doesnt have to be men, there are lads off school for summer. Sometimes you have to help yourselves.

mfceiling

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But that's not indicative of cruelty.

In recent years , it has become popular in some quarters to return to a simpler model of horsemanship: suddenly as horse-people we seem to have realised that wintering-out our animals without rugs is nothing to be afraid of; horses have been doing it for millenia.

Personally, I see indoor stabling as an unfortunate necessity, to be avoided where possible. I think there is a great deal to be admired in the natural horsemanship I have personally witnessed amongst travellers, some of whom have a lot more in common with experienced yardowners and the old-fashioned trainers (in terms of their practical approach) than the more recent type of owner, the Celtic-Tiger-era, one-horse owner who keeps their only animal in livery, and is too easily alarmed at minor hazards like frost and rainfall.

There have been numerous attacks on traveller housing in the past few years; it tends to happen before the travellers move in

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/two-houses-burned-in-attack-on-traveller-complex-1.1314489

I thought it was obvious that the security was intended to protect the property from the settled community. I don't think the travellers are about to burn down the development that many of them are already willing to enter. The remaining travellers don't seem to be opposed to the development, they are simply looking for extra provisions.

They have a history of burning down accommodation that has been provided for them. How do I know? I watched the fire brigade attempt to put out the fire on 3 separate occasions from the last house I lived in. I also went to look at a traveller's house that was burnt. We priced the work for repairing it. The other 7 houses in the estate were boarded up after being trashed. The entire complex had been ruined...you couldn't have done a better job if you'd spent a week at it.

Pumpkinseeds

pickarooney wrote: »

How many of youse would like to be told "feck off out of your house, Apple needs the space, we've built you a new space with a gym because you all love boxing. By the way, your pets can't come"

I don't know how compulsory purchase works here, but in other countries when the council wants your home to build on they pay you what they consider market value and you've no choice but to move out and make your own housing arrangements. They've been given state of the art housing 200 metres from their old accomodation. There's just no helping some people. Frankly, fcuk em all, build trailer parks and force them to pay to live there, just like their kind in America. Ethnic minority my ass.:rolleyes:

Valetta

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If they gave these homes to homeless people, then how much would that reduce the homeless rate in Cork? People are saying they're purpose-built for travellers - what does this mean exactly? Do travellers have special housing conditions?

They have special greenhouses attached where they can grow their culture.

nullzero

More free housing for travellers to move into some to store their huge piles of cash and complain about being marginalized in society and being victims of "racism" while calling every black person the see a n1gger.

bottlebrush

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I don't know how compulsory purchase works here, but in other countries when the council wants your home to build on they pay you what they consider market value and you've no choice but to move out and make your own housing arrangements. They've been given state of the art housing 200 metres from their old accomodation. There's just no helping some people. Frankly, fcuk em all, build trailer parks and force them to pay to live there, just like their kind in America. Ethnic minority my ass.:rolleyes:

"If your house and land is compulsorily purchased, you will be eligible for compensation to restore you as far as possible to the same position as you were in before the land and property was acquired.

You should be paid compensation based on the market value of your property.
You should be left in the same financial position after the CPO as you were before the process.
The compensation should reflect both the actual land acquired and the reduction in value, if any, of the retained area as a result of the CPO".

Was just researching CPO process as you posted. I copied the above from the Citizen's Advice website. I think the members of the travelling community in Cork are being offered a good deal and shouldn't be looking the proverbial gift horse in the mouth.

AlekSmart

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In recent years , it has become popular in some quarters to return to a simpler model of horsemanship: suddenly as horse-people we seem to have realised that wintering-out our animals without rugs is nothing to be afraid of; horses have been doing it for millenia.

Personally, I see indoor stabling as an unfortunate necessity, to be avoided where possible. I think there is a great deal to be admired in the natural horsemanship I have personally witnessed amongst travellers, some of whom have a lot more in common with experienced yardowners and the old-fashioned trainers (in terms of their practical approach) than the more recent type of owner, the Celtic-Tiger-era, one-horse owner who keeps their only animal in livery, and is too easily alarmed at minor hazards like frost and rainfall.

There have been numerous attacks on traveller housing in the past few years; it tends to happen before the travellers move in

I thought it was obvious that the security was intended to protect the property from the settled community. I don't think the travellers are about to burn down the development that many of them are already willing to enter. The remaining travellers don't seem to be opposed to the development, they are simply looking for extra provisions.

I would contend that the "Natural Horsemanship" you have personally witnessed is no more prevalent within the modern Traveller population than it is within the general horseowning one.

I suggest that The Celtic Horseypersons you know of are equally non-indicative of the overriding (:o) abilities of horseowners in general.

The issues surrounding the burning of caravans and houses for a variety of traveller specific reasons are supposedly complex and interwoven in the web of traveller culture going back centuries.

It may well have been acceptable during times when piseóg's ruled the poor,ill-educated downtrodden populaces thoughts,but I'm afraid I cannot even nod in it's direction in the 21st Century.

Sadly however,whenever the issue of Travellers rights et al is raised,it tends to avoid confronting issues such as why there is so much Traveller on Traveller violence,and why some sections of Traveller culture are so insistent on preventing other Travellers from availing of "settled" life benefits....and by association....responsibilities ?

Miall108

All these state of the art facilities and they still wont move in. What more do they want? A trough to eat out of??

JustTheOne

Do they pay for electricity, bins, heat etc?

Unbelievable.

Sheep Lover

Keep giving them it for nothing and they'll keep taking it for nothing. They contribute nothing to society yet take, take, take in more than one sense of the word.