Clery's O'Connell Street is gone

theteal

I read an article earlier about the ambitious new plan and all I could keep thinking was, "yeah sounds good. . .but are they going to clear all the junkies out of the area?"

Any word on increased police focus????

sabat

alastair wrote: »

An Applestore in Dublin wouldn't make Apple tax resident, any more than their factory in Cork has, and it's been here since 1980. It's not the reason they haven't opened one.

There's "Apple" and there's "Apple Ireland."
Apple sells phones and pays royalties to Apple Ireland which does not sell anything physical-it's this distinction that enables the tax wheeze. If they did open a shop in the same tax jurisdiction it would make it a lot harder to argue that the these are two separate entities; for the sake of €13 billion why take the risk?

Walter H Price

theteal wrote: »

I read an article earlier about the ambitious new plan and all I could keep thinking was, "yeah sounds good. . .but are they going to clear all the junkies out of the area?"

Any word on increased police focus????

Same as i love the proposal for clearys but would be p!ssing in the wind in terms of improving O'Conell street untill something is done about the homeless , the junkies and the Roma all over the place, just makes the whole street feel dirty and dangerous.

After that need a clear out of the fast food outlets and arcades , that street could really be something but i needs a major face lift at this stage , the whole D1 area does tbh ... we should look to do something similar to what Liverpool and Birmingham have done with Liverpool 1 and the Bullring redevelopments, change the whole face of the city centers. the Clearys remodel could be a big part of that

BoatMad

Walter H Price wrote: »

Same as i love the proposal for clearys but would be p!ssing in the wind in terms of improving O'Conell street untill something is done about the homeless , the junkies and the Roma all over the place, just makes the whole street feel dirty and dangerous.

After that need a clear out of the fast food outlets and arcades , that street could really be something but i needs a major face lift at this stage , the whole D1 area does tbh ... we should look to do something similar to what Liverpool and Birmingham have done with Liverpool 1 and the Bullring redevelopments, change the whole face of the city centers. the Clearys remodel could be a big part of that

then theres the invasion of Russia to consider, should we do that before of after , herr dictator

L1011

sabat wrote: »

There's "Apple" and there's "Apple Ireland."
Apple sells phones and pays royalties to Apple Ireland which does not sell anything physical-it's this distinction that enables the tax wheeze. If they did open a shop in the same tax jurisdiction it would make it a lot harder to argue that the these are two separate entities; for the sake of €13 billion why take the risk?

Apple in Cork sell phones to people already, and have done since direct sales of devices began after the O2 exclusivity period. They have sold computers, accessories and software directly to people for possibly 30 years.

Tax concerns are not why they don't have a shop here.

Walter H Price

BoatMad wrote: »

then theres the invasion of Russia to consider, should be do that before of after , herr dictator

I'm not sure you cant argue with the fact that the human detritus all over the city centre is taking away from the place , it dosn't really make it feel very welcoming or safe to be honest and the amount of fast food outlets on O'Connell street is something else.

That street has allot of fine old architecture and site's of historic value , its primed to be gentrified and made into something far more then it currently is , but all that would be a waste of effort until something is done about the volume of homeless , junkies and Roma about the place

Lt Dan

Snickers Man wrote: »

Apple has always treated its Irish customers with utter contempt. One of the last countries in Europe to be able to purchase music from iTunes, awful service, expensive prices etc etc

But with geeks as with women, you gotta treat 'em mean to keep 'em keen.

Oh and Steve Jobs DIDN'T change the world.

I really never understood how people, all professed atheists like Stephen Fry , preached, cried and even had Job's portrait up, as if he was the messiah, when he died. All worshiped a piece of plastic that one could, if stuck, do without. He did not even invent or manufacture the products . Just a sales man and a guy who shouted at his project team and had a good sense of what would work.

Surprised that they never formed a cult

Snickers Man

Lt Dan wrote: »

I really never understood how people, all professed atheists like Stephen Fry , preached, cried and even had Job's portrait up, as if he was the messiah, when he died. All worshiped a piece of plastic that one could, if stuck, do without. He did not even invent or manufacture the products . Just a sales man and a guy who shouted at his project team and had a good sense of what would work.

Surprised that they never formed a cult

Saw an old Big Bang Theory episode this evening with one of my all time favourite gags in it. Sheldon (or at least his virtualised remote presence --you have to know the show) meets Apple co-founder Steve Wosniak in a restaurant and tells him he is "my 15th favourite all time tech visionary"
"Only 15th?" says Wosniak, a little hurt
"It's still six higher than Steve Jobs!"

Bazinga, as the great man would say.

OK seriously off topic at this stage.

BoatMad

now folks, bashing ,the Gov, the catholic church , politicians, thats fine, But Steve is a god . lay off

Hollister11

http://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/clerys-redevelopment-will-provide-new-focus-and-heartbeat-to-oconnell-street-an-bord-pleanla-hears-35547451.html

Exactly what O'Connell streets. A big hotel, high class restraunts, bars and offices.

AMKC

I see the Clery`s workers and Natrium the company that bought Clery`s have come to a financial settlement which is only right for the workers that lost there jobs and great to see.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0321/861373-clerys/

Atlantic Dawn

AMKC wrote: »

I see the Clery`s workers and Natrium the company that bought Clery`s have come to a financial settlement which is only right for the workers that lost there jobs and great to see.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0321/861373-clerys/

Todays Independent reporting that the Natrium payment is between €1-2million, that is a measly maximum of €15,384 if true for each of the 130 employees, only a tiny fraction of what they are due.

The new project is worth €150million, the workers were shut up with the crumbs from the table, their union are a bloody disgrace, I'd have protested and blocked the building works every single day until I got what I was due and not let these people get away with how they conducted business :mad:

Sources have suggested the amount to be paid to the 130 workers is between €1m and €2m, and will be based on working patterns and years of service. The settlement also includes an "understanding" around fair working conditions, and communities of the north east inner city will be offered training and employment opportunities when the scheme is developed.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/former-clerys-workers-secure-1m-payout-in-longrunning-row-35554049.html

L1011

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

their union are a bloody disgrace

The union is what managed to get them this in the first place - they were getting nothing but statutory redundancy otherwise.

The amount is not out of kilter with what you'd get on top of statutory from a more reasonable employer, plus if the re-employment stuff actually happens rather than being a hand-wave gesture I'd consider that a win on two fronts.

Manion

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Todays Independent reporting that the Natrium payment is between €1-2million, that is a measly maximum of €15,384 if true for each of the 130 employees, only a tiny fraction of what they are due.

The new project is worth €150million, the workers were shut up with the crumbs from the table, their union are a bloody disgrace, I'd have protested and blocked the building works every single day until I got what I was due and not let these people get away with how they conducted business :mad:



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/former-clerys-workers-secure-1m-payout-in-longrunning-row-35554049.html

Why do you believe that they should get more than the above? On what basis. The business went bust, it seems like a reasonable redundancy package. Do you think they should get a proportion of the new development as if they are investors?

markpb

Manion wrote:

Why do you leave that they should get more than the above? On what basis. The business went bust, it seems like a reasonable redundancy package. Do you think they should get a proportion of the new development as if they are investors?

It all boils down to whether you believe Clearys genuinely went bust or whether the owners believed they could make more money by putting the property to another use and engineered the receivership by charging artificially high rent to their child company. Both are legal but the latter would mean that the employees don't have to be paid redundancy by the company.

Manion

markpb wrote: »

It all boils down to whether you believe Clearys genuinely went bust or whether the owners believed they could make more money by putting the property to another use and engineered the receivership by charging artificially high rent to their child company. Both are legal but the latter would mean that the employees don't have to be paid redundancy by the company.

The question of whether or not it was a deliberate business move to close up shop or simple the market realities and unavoidable seems irrelevant when determining compensation for employees loosing their Job. A company is free to say that we no longer wish to operate in this market. We've seen it countless times. The right thing in this instance is that the people made redundant are compensated. The figures quoted seem very reasonable.

I cannot imagine a situation whereby if the company I work for decided to pivot away from the core business into a new venture which no longer required me, that I would received compensation as a percentage of projected potential earnings of the new venture.

HivemindXX

Manion wrote: »

The question of whether or not it was a deliberate business move to close up shop or simple the market realities and unavoidable seems irrelevant when determining compensation for employees loosing their Job. A company is free to say that we no longer wish to operate in this market. We've seen it countless times. The right thing in this instance is that the people made redundant are compensated. The figures quoted seem very reasonable.

Neither of those two cases seems to be what happened here though. The company that bought Clerys decided they didn't want to run a shop any more and split the company in to two. They had the store company pay the property company high rents until they were completely bankrupt, sold the property company for a handy profit since it had a nice valuable asset and a healthy balance sheet and then told all their debtors for the store company, including the employees who were owed redundancy, that they were bankrupt and there no money to pay anyone.

This isn't to say that the payments currently on offer aren't reasonable. They may well be a reasonable amount and they are a hell of a lot better than nothing since I didn't expect that pack of "we didn't do anything illegal" vermin to pay a cent.

Manion

HivemindXX wrote: »

Neither of those two cases seems to be what happened here though. The company that bought Clerys decided they didn't want to run a shop any more and split the company in to two. They had the store company pay the property company high rents until they were completely bankrupt, sold the property company for a handy profit since it had a nice valuable asset and a healthy balance sheet and then told all their debtors for the store company, including the employees who were owed redundancy, that they were bankrupt and there no money to pay anyone.

This isn't to say that the payments currently on offer aren't reasonable. They may well be a reasonable amount and they are a hell of a lot better than nothing since I didn't expect that pack of "we didn't do anything illegal" vermin to pay a cent.

True enough.

Snickers Man

A letter in the Irish Times this week from somebody who does not appear to be a typical "Trade Union agitator" or "Social Justice Warrior" summarises things quite nicely.

"The closure of Clerys, however, raised fundamental issues of insolvency practice, law and ethics that are still unresolved. Overnight, Clerys sale created a class of big winners, some of whom made double-digit returns on their investment, while at the same time the State was the big loser, forced to foot the bill for €2.5 million of redundancy payments. Others, like concession holders, lost out also.
For all of the workers’ current good cheer, let us not forget that there are serious matters still to be addressed in the public interest.
If not addressed, then Clerys will become a template of sorts that will reappear in time, undermining those who advocate the overriding importance of ethics in business. – Yours, etc,
BRENDAN LENIHAN,
Managing Director,
Navigo Consulting Ltd,"

Quite. As in all matters of life and business "you get the behaviour you tolerate". If it's quite all right for a bunch of vulture investors to acquire a struggling business but with assets holding great potential, arbitrarily divide the company so that all the losses are apportioned to the one failing part, sack everybody and say "Oh but we (the loss making part) have no money" and then expect the state to make up the statutory payments to the destitute workers while the purchasers earn liability-free profits on the very valuable part of the former company, then it :
undermines ethical businesses,
discredits the welfare state,
demoralises honest workers
and lauds the most repugnant, shameless, acquisitive elements in our society.

Sign of the times. Is it any wonder Donald Trump is president of the US?

Snickers Man

And it's been sold for €63m according to the Irish Times.

Nice little earner for that nice Ms Foley and her friends. Bought for €29m three years ago, bill for redundancies passed on to the state and a profit of 117% over three years to the purchasers.

Huge respect to "astute business operators".

How's that Apple Store promise working out for ya?

FreudianSlippers

Snickers Man wrote: »

And it's been sold for €63m according to the Irish Times.

Nice little earner for that nice Ms Foley and her friends. Bought for €29m three years ago, bill for redundancies passed on to the state and a profit of 117% over three years to the purchasers.

Huge respect to "astute business operators".

How's that Apple Store promise working out for ya?

You're right... this is a great development. The long needed redevelopment of the area will be put on the long finger.

Keep OCS a ****hole!

markpb

Snickers Man wrote: »

And it's been sold for €63m according to the Irish Times. Nice little earner for that nice Ms Foley and her friends. Bought for €29m three years ago, bill for redundancies passed on to the state and a profit of 117% over three years to the purchasers. Huge respect to "astute business operators".

I know your sentiment is right but it's easy to ignore the cost of raising the finance they needed to buy the site in the first place as well as the cost of getting approved planning permission for the site (architects costs, engineering consultancy costs, legal costs, DCC & APB costs, etc). And now they'll pay CGT on the profit from selling the building and CT on the profit the company made during the year.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

You're right... this is a great development. The long needed redevelopment of the area will be put on the long finger. Keep OCS a ****hole!

This is true!

L1011

The Nassau Street redevelopment that's starting next month has Apple logos on the flagship store in all their planning docs. It'd be very dodgy to use that logo without consent. If anywhere gets one it'll be there I'd imagine