Next Irish Manager

Mr.H

jamesbere wrote: »

There's your problem right there, we keep trying to see where these players fit in the top 5 or 6 in the PL, we don't have these type's of player's and that's that.

We significantly lack quality in key area's mainly midfield, macarthy and whelan might do a job for there respective teams but obviously don't work together on the international stage, we need someone creative in midfield which we sadly lack.

I think defensively we are pretty solid, I taught wilson played well today and o shea will do a job for you.

The biggest concern for me is the next few campaigns, we have alot of player's pushing on and from I can see nothing coming up.

But we do have players who could do the job. Ireland? (not the same player he could have been but surely has that creativity we miss in the center?

Grealish? tell him he will be starter.................. in fact make him a starter. He isnt exactly being outshone by any of teh current crop

1 point from Scotland.

Ohhhhhhh I need to hear John Delaney speak about his girlfriend to help me get over this.

jamesbere

Mr.H wrote: »

But we do have players who could do the job. Ireland? (not the same player he could have been but surely has that creativity we miss in the center?

Grealish? tell him he will be starter.................. in fact make him a starter. He isnt exactly being outshone by any of teh current crop

Ireland doesn't want to play for us, so there's no point chasing that ghost, he has the creativity we have been lacking but sadly we have lost out on his talent over the years and I think he is now past his peak. Grealish will not play for us, I can't see it happening.

Billy86

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's time we stopped deluding ourselves.

Fergie will not be coming out of reitement to manage us. If he had the itch to get back into management he wouldn't turn towards our team. Even if he did he wouldn't be able to fix our issues which delve right to the heart of how we produce, or rather how we don't produce, players.

Post if the year, and exactly why I was so mystified at people thinking O'Neill/Keane would herald some kind of new dawn in Irish international football, results wise at least.

CSF

Billy86 wrote: »

Post if the year, and exactly why I was so mystified at people thinking O'Neill/Keane would herald some kind of new dawn in Irish international football, results wise at least.

So essentially the logic is, we don't produce players who go onto play at a great level, so we shouldn't care too much if we get bad results regularly against teams who have payers playing at an even lower level.

Solid logic. Hard to argue with. Definite post of the year.

Paully D

Mr.H wrote: »

Trap was an awful manager who got us luckily to a tourny and humiliated us by not even trying. Disgraceful team set ups that man had.

He was a great manager back in teh day but his tactics where outdated the way Jackies would be if he was here now

Jesus wept. :rolleyes:

One of the most ridiculous posts I've seen on here and that's some achievement.

Mr.H

Paully D wrote: »

Jesus wept. :rolleyes:

One of the most ridiculous posts I've seen on here and that's some achievement.

So your proud of what trap did when he qualified??

Dont be ridiculous traps tenure was a joke and we had some of the worst results in our history under his tenure

Mr.H

To put things into perspective how many players do you actually think played top flight football in Jackies era??

we had around 10 playing first division/premiership, 2 playing abroad and 2 up in scotland. We had just as many playing in the second flight as we do now if not more

People look back with rose tinted glasses and see world class when it wasnt actually world class. It was the best we could see and the amount we could see was limited due to lack of televised games (foreign games) and lack of foreign players in our leagues

Do people really believe that Aldridge, McGrath, Keane etc deserve to be anywhere near the lieks of Charlton, Moore, Best, Maradonna?????

We had great players back then and if they where hear today they would be the same level as the likes of Mceady and Mcarthy

LuckyLloyd

Paully D wrote: »

Jesus wept. :rolleyes:

One of the most ridiculous posts I've seen on here and that's some achievement.

It's what 'the man on the street thinks' about the Trapp era and he believes 100% in what he's saying Paully. The Trapp era exposed the paucity of knowledge and realism amongst our fanbase like no previous tenure tbh. And there's no reasoning with them on it.

Mr.H

Talk down all you want but the fact that we lost every single game at that tournament is a joke. We played all out defensive in that group and Trapp showed how passed it he was. Of course denial isnt just a river bla bla bla

LuckyLloyd

Mr.H wrote: »

Talk down all you want but the fact that we lost every single game at that tournament is a joke. We played all out defensive in that group and Trapp showed how passed it he was. Of course denial isnt just a river bla bla bla

Yeah, Spain and Italy were terrible teams.

Paully D

Paully D wrote: »

Jesus wept. :rolleyes:

One of the most ridiculous posts I've seen on here and that's some achievement.

Afair Trap broke records when it came to defeats, heaviest losses, most in one year, most consecutive etc. Hardly ridiculous to remember that.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's what 'the man on the street thinks' about the Trapp era and he believes 100% in what he's saying Paully. The Trapp era exposed the paucity of knowledge and realism amongst our fanbase like no previous tenure tbh. And there's no reasoning with them on it.

Under O Neill, we'd play attacking free flowing football at tournaments don't you know.

We just need to overcome the task of qualifying first...

thebaz

CSF wrote: »

So essentially the logic is, we don't produce players who go onto play at a great level, so we shouldn't care too much if we get bad results regularly against teams who have payers playing at an even lower level.

Solid logic. Hard to argue with. Definite post of the year.

define solid logic - thats all you seam to snipe about

That_Guy

O'Neill and Keane aren't good enough but the problem will always be the lack of proper development for young players coming through.

A handful may make it to big Premier League teams but they're going to be lost in the sea of money and big name signings and will rot away.

The whole structure has to change.

Give the LOI and grassroots level an actual fighting chance to produce players here at home.

That's what Delaney should have pumped the €5 million into. It's all well and good to have a fancy stadium but we need future players from our own back garden to play in it for the future.

Will it happen? Will it fúck?

Lots of managerial appointments won't save us. The international management scene is like a retirement home for once decent managers.

The system is fúcked and will take years to re-structure and that in my opinion, is where we should focus our attention.

But we won't and we'll be stuck inside this vicious cycle for a long long time to come.

CSF

thebaz wrote: »

define solid logic - thats all you seam to snipe about

noun
noun: logic

1. 1.
   reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.
   "experience is a better guide to this than deductive logic"
   synonyms:science of reasoning, science of deduction, science of thought, dialectics, argumentation, ratiocination "the study of logic"
   
   
   
   
   
   • a particular system or codification of the principles of proof and inference.
     "Aristotelian logic"
     
     
   • the systematic use of symbolic and mathematical techniques to determine the forms of valid deductive argument.
     plural noun: logics
     
     
   • the quality of being justifiable by reason.
     "there seemed to be a lack of logic in his remarks"
     synonyms:reason, judgement, logical thought, rationality, cognition, wisdom, sagacity, sound judgement, sense, good sense, common sense, rationale, sanity; Morededuction, inference, syllogistic reasoning;
     coherence, relevance;
     informalhorse sense
     "this case appears to defy all logic"
     
     
     
     
     
     
   • the course of action suggested by or following as a necessary consequence of.
     "the logic of private competition was to replace small firms by larger firms"
     synonyms:reasoning, line of reasoning, chain of reasoning, process of reasoning, argument, argumentation "the economic logic of the argument"
     
     
     
     
     
   
   
   
   
2. 2.
   a system or set of principles underlying the arrangements of elements in a computer or electronic device so as to perform a specified task.
   
   
   • logical operations collectively.
     
     
   
   
   
   

rob316

I want Delaney to come out and say this what we are going to do. Will he though? Will he ****. Time to start earning your outrageous salary John.

That_Guy

rob316 wrote: »

I want Delaney to come out and say this what we are going to do. Will he though? Will he ****. Time to start earning your outrageous salary John.

Much like O'Neill's tactics yesterday, Delaney doesn't know what he's doing either.

There doesn't seem to be a plan.

I know they get a bit of stick but the FA at least try to come up with 5-10 year plans and attempt to put them in place.

We just go for the once big name managers, hope people will be silly enough to pay over inflated ticket prices and keep the cost of running the AVIVA down.

Hannibal

Our problem is every talented kid goes England and a lot are chewed up and spat out. A lot of these players are lost to the game.

We need to invest in domestic football to get it to a decent level and probably look to set up FAI academy's in Dublin and Cork where promising players can go and get access to coaches that should have UEFA Pro and A level badges. It tells a tale when we've only ever got Rovers into the Europa groups.

The FAI need top facilities in academy's to entice promising players into the system and possibly away from GAA.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

rob316 wrote: »

Majority of our players are English not Irish, born and raised in England. The three lions beat in there heart they don't know what is to play for Ireland. The same players that aren't good enough to play for England.

We are the England B Team no doubt. Lost our identity. Getting in a decent manager would help and getting rid of that ego maniac Keane.

Lies. Pure and utter lies.

Five out of the 23 players in the squad for the England and Scotland games are from England.

micks

Oat23 wrote: »

This is what is needed. The league has produced several internationals recently (Long, Coleman, McClean etc.) and that is without any help at all from the FAI. We can be a much better team, but as long as Delaney and those other tools continue letting our young players leave to England before they even have a junior cert and depend on the granny rule to fill the gaps, we are not going to get better. Only worse.

https://twitter.com/seidodge/status/582294567346708480



No county system. Leave that to the gah.

Forget about trying to get Irish people passionate about our league too. It's never going to happen.

I like the idea of the FAI opening several schools around the country to keep our best players here, and then loaning/assigning them to LOI clubs to play in the underage national leagues before moving up to play in the LOI. Play in the LOI for 2-3 seasons and then move across to England if they are good enough. The LOI team then receives a cut of the transfer fee for helping develop the player.

Never going to happen with the current setup of the FAI.

Maybe the LOI clubs should start looking into proper underage structures rather than blaming others for their failings
How many LOI clubs had proper underage structures before it became a licencing requirement?
How many still dont have an underage structure now that it is a requirement?
Maybe when LOI clubs start to cater for kids 7-8 and upwards they will get some player away and improve their conveyor belt

CSF

IMO, the biggest job of the next head of the FAI (assuming we've any chance of getting rid of Der Fuhrer), is getting all the stakeholders of football in this country pulling in the same direction.

For too long now, John Delaney has served as a figure of division in this country. And, this isn't a division of people who like him and dislike him. This is about a division of people who are willing to tolerate him and support the national team anyway, and those people who are turned off football in the country completely.

So many LOI fans are put off the national team by how much the same administrators of the National Team have marginalised the league. People might talk about how does the peoples happiness affect the performances of the national team. Directly, it doesn't make O'Neill a better manager or Whelan into Iniesta, but theres alot to be said for a full Aviva full of people roaring on the Irish team, really caring how the team does in every single game, and not the general apathy that exists in the country right now.

Not only would it make the Aviva a more difficult place for away teams to visit, but you're creating alot more money from gate receipts, and merchandise. And by god does football in this country need money. We need money to be spent on elite youth development centres, money to be spent on making the league a more viable pathway to elite international football. Money is easily one of the biggest problems football in Ireland faces. As long as the FAI is still struggling to pay off Aviva, we're not gonna see the money available to give youth and domestic football the revamp it needs to help create the next generation of Ireland footballers.

The neglect of the national league absolutely has to stop. Belgium is absolutely the country we have to be aiming towards in terms of where they've come from, where they are now, and population (I know theirs is bigger than ours but still not in the same bracket as the really big European countries). Courtois, Mignolet, Kompany, De Bruyne, Defour, Fellaini, Witsel, Benteke, Lukaku, all had an actual career in Belgium as a pathway before going to the bigger leagues to make that next step. We don't really have that. Some of the Ireland squad now have played LOI in the past, which is a step up from previous situations, but realistically, you'd be hard pushed to say that the league gave them much in terms of development towards elite level. The standard is just too low.

We need to increase the player pool of Irish players who've played at a semi-decent Full-Time level, we can't continue to rely on English clubs to provide that. You'll get a few, but very few Premier League clubs are even looking to give chances to many young English players, never mind Irish ones. The money in the Premier League means clubs need players who can perform now. Like Belgium, we should be sending over players to England who are ready to compete for first-team places. We're not doing that enough.

Instead, we're relying on clubs like Kevins and Joeys, whose entire reasons for existence is to provide players tailormade to create players they can send off to England at a profit at the age of 15/16. The creation of the national Under 17 and Under 19 leagues is a start, but again, we need to do more to create that elite pathway.

How will we ever improve if that elite pathway is not there and the people of Ireland commonly harbour feelings of resentment and apathy towards the national team?

CSF

micks wrote: »

Maybe the LOI clubs should start looking into proper underage structures rather than blaming others for their failings
How many LOI clubs had proper underage structures before it became a licencing requirement?
How many still dont have an underage structure now that it is a requirement?
Maybe when LOI clubs start to cater for kids 7-8 and upwards they will get some player away and improve their conveyor belt

With what money? When the prizemoney in the league is so low, there is no means to make good happen even where the will is there to do exactly this.

Where do LOI clubs get the money to put decent underage structures in place? I was an academy coach for a LOI club (who cater for kids as young as 5) for a good few years. All the will is there, but you need to be able to throw money at these things. You can rest assured thats what the good youth systems have done. They didn't get there on good will alone.

LuckyLloyd

The LOI clubs bear a responsibility themselves to divert resource and effort to their own youth setups. Too often they allow their youth teams to languish outside the Premier division in the DDSL and rarely compete in the National Cup. The FAI has given them an out with the new national youth leagues, and if I'm honest it's very difficult to feel sorry for the LOI clubs when they run themselves as they do.

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

With what money? When the prizemoney in the league is so low, there is no means to make good happen even where the will is there to do exactly this.

Where do LOI clubs get the money to put decent underage structures in place? I was an academy coach for a LOI club (who cater for kids as young as 5) for a good few years. All the will is there, but you need to be able to throw money at these things. You can rest assured thats what the good youth systems have done. They didn't get there on good will alone.

Ah here, where do Cherry Orchard and Kevin's get the money. They'd rather sign another player on €800 a week than put that money towards their youth setup, that's the reality.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ah here, where do Cherry Orchard and Kevin's get the money. They'd rather sign another player on €800 a week than put that money towards their youth setup, that's the reality.

Cherry Orchard and Kevins reap the benefits of having the structures in place for a long time, and they're still receiving money in regularly from players they pimped over to England a number of years back.

That money doesn't exist for LOI clubs unfortunately, nor do they already have the youth facilities that Orchard or Kevins posess. We can mope in the past and look at why Shelbourne, Bohs, Pats, Rovers etc didn't have great youth systems in years gone by, but I don't think that serves a purpose.

Also, keeping teams in DDSL Premier is more difficult than you might think as long as the likes of Kevins, Home Farm, Orchard, Joeys exist. Shels have done the best of the 4 Dublin LOI teams but it is difficult I assure you, but if you're not one of the Dublin teams, what do you have then? What elite league do Sligo, Galway, Dundalk or Limerick put their teams into?

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

Cherry Orchard and Kevins reap the benefits of having the structures in place for a long time, and they're still receiving money in regularly from players they pimped over to England a number of years back.

That money doesn't exist for LOI clubs unfortunately, nor do they already have the youth facilities that Orchard or Kevins posess. We can mope in the past and look at why Shelbourne, Bohs, Pats, Rovers etc didn't have great youth systems in years gone by, but I don't think that serves a purpose.

Also, keeping teams in DDSL Premier is more difficult than you might think as long as the likes of Kevins, Home Farm, Orchard, Joeys exist. Shels have done the best of the 4 Dublin LOI teams but it is difficult I assure you, but if you're not one of the Dublin teams, what do you have then? What elite league do Sligo, Galway, Dundalk or Limerick put their teams into?

There certainly are competitive youth leagues in Munster. But yes, the Dublin clubs are the main focus on this issue for obvious reasons.

I am very aware at how tough the DDSL is. One could run the risk of overestimating the facilities that a club like Cherry Orchard has. The lawns or their other pitches down by Cherry Orchard Avenue are very basic really. Their advantage is all about their aggressive recruiting and the fact that people want to play for them because it's seen as the stepping stone to the UK. I think it would be more a matter of will than finances to make the big Dublin LOI clubs dominant at youth level.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There certainly are competitive youth leagues in Munster. But yes, the Dublin clubs are the main focus on this issue for obvious reasons.

I am very aware at how tough the DDSL is. One could run the risk of overestimating the facilities that a club like Cherry Orchard has. The lawns or their other pitches down by Cherry Orchard Avenue are very basic really. Their advantage is all about their aggressive recruiting and the fact that people want to play for them because it's seen as the stepping stone to the UK. I think it would be more a matter of will than finances to make the big Dublin LOI clubs dominant at youth level.

Honestly, I'd love to hear how you would go about doing this. Young lads want to go play for Kevins and Home Farm, because they generally have the best teams to begin with because of their reputation, and then they're able to hoover up the best players from the rest of the teams in the county with promises of how they can get the player their dream move to England and back it up with 20 examples of the lads they did it for in the last 5 years.

If you have a good solid plan, I would love to hear it, because I would absolutely want to implement it, because the will exists.

Ferris_Bueller

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The brutal truth is that we have a pool of players who have big hearts but are limited technically. The ones that play in the Premier League are mostly there to do the donkey work that players from the continent are less well versed in; they're grafters, basically. There are a few exceptions but not more than you can count on one hand; and these will be either getting on in years, or players we've acquired through the granny rule, i.e. not ones we produced domestically.

The country doesn't want to acknowledge the depth of the problems so we either kid ourselves that the manager is to blame, or rather that we are overlooking some saviour who if only they were here would fix all our woes; see Andy Reid, Stephen Ireland, James McCarthy, Seamus Coleman, Wes Hoolahan, Jack Grealish etc., who have all been elevated to this deified status in recent times.

It is more comforting to believe that if only this or that manager were at the helm, or if only this or that player featured, then all would be rosy and well in the garden. But the uncomfortable truth is that the managers we pine for would be working with the same basic resources, and the players that we are longing for are not world class by any stretch. The problems would remain.

We need to tackle the problem at the source: we need to start producing players. Whether Ruud Dokter and others can achieve this we will have to wait and see, but given that the chief executive of the football association believes in throwing money at big name managerial appointments, as well as down his own pocket, doesn't leave me with a great deal of hope. Why not throw money at the best youth coaches in world football? Why not invest hugely in youth?

We need a complete overhaul of things from top to bottom and from bottom to top, but I think we will be more likely to see FIFA become a fair and reputable sporting organisation than we will see the FAI become a forward-thing and innovative domestic organisation.

There are dark days ahead for Irish soccer and you can be sure the circus will continue. Sack this fella, get in this fella, why pick so-and-so, we should have picked your man with the granny from Ennis etc.

We need to wake up but we will keep dreaming because it's easier that way.

I agree with this post, we do need to improve our coaching, youth structures, national league and ultimately develop better players - but I would nearly consider this a separate issue to who will be our next manager. Our managers job will be to get the best results and performances out of his squad, which O'Neill hasn't done. It's not as if we're coming up against world class teams every week that we will need world class players to beat, I believe that with the right manager in charge and tactics employed we could finish ahead of Poland and Scotland in this group.

The standard of player we're producing needs to be improved drastically but that will be a long term project, in order to keep football as popular in this country as it is we need to improve in the short term, which I think will be done by hiring the right manager and selecting the right players. Who would I give the job to though? I don't know. McCarthy seems like the best of the names being thrown around at the minute.

Fudge You

Blue giant wrote: »

I wouldn't mind seeing Mick McCarthy back in the dugout one bit. He's spent his whole career getting the best out of average to above average players. His teams normally play an okay brand of football as well.

I read the same, said about O'Neill before he got the job.

CSF

Fudge You wrote: »

I read the same, said about O'Neill before he got the job.

Yeah but you'll read good and bad things said about almost anyone. For a combination of reasons, variance of opinions, but also where there is an opinion, someone will always feel compelled to have the counter opinion.

I can't remember him being in a job that he did not have a very high wage bill/transfer budget at relative to the stature of the club since Leicester. He has never had to scrounge by and make the best of little.

micks

CSF wrote: »

With what money? When the prizemoney in the league is so low, there is no means to make good happen even where the will is there to do exactly this.

Where do LOI clubs get the money to put decent underage structures in place? I was an academy coach for a LOI club (who cater for kids as young as 5) for a good few years. All the will is there, but you need to be able to throw money at these things. You can rest assured thats what the good youth systems have done. They didn't get there on good will alone.

Agree with Llyods posts also

Its all a matter of priorities for me

What do LOI fans/clubs want ? A proper league that retains players from a proper underage structure or just to blames someone else?

The vast majority of successful schoolboy teams in the country are self sustaining financially and not reliant on players going to the uk to survive - thats the icing for them

LOI fans have a go at the FAI at every opportunity yet are quite happy that the FAI turn a blind eye to Bray / UCD etc over their lack of an underage set up

you brought up the excuse that money is not there to establish a decent underage structure but the new U17/U19 league will cost much more for a club to operate in that entering into their local league or nearest elite league.
Operating teams from u8 upwards will pay for them selves - parachuting in the leftovers of the kevins/orchard etc will cost money they wont pay their way and anyone going to the UK will be gone by u17 so no financial gain

personally if i were (IMO) to fix football in this country i would for a start:
- disband every league and provincial association in the country
- rebuild them without the conflicting structures ie one league per county and one organisation per province all under the FAI
- nothing wrong with the ETP centres of excellence maybe need tweaking etc
- LOI quota for homegrown underage players in squad
- all LOI clubs require their own training facilities
- ground sharing where feasible in municipal stadia eg tallaght


all not agreeable or realistic i know big changes would be required to fix football



For the international team i believe the problem is bigger, Irish players do not get the same amount of contracts in the uk/EPL that they did historically
Is this because of the quality of players going over? Or that UK clubs are taking European/african/south american talent instead?

I heard Kilban and Cunningham on Newstalk saying is was down to lack of facilities and coaching in Ireland, but IMO facilities and coaching are infinitely better now than 20 years ago. I dont think we are doing anything wrong as such just maybe lacking whatever is required. The likes of Kevins and Joes are run as professional clubs/academies so i dont see coaching or facilities as a reason not to produce decent talent.

LuckyLloyd

Yep:

Coaching IS better than it ever was
Facilities ARE better than they ever were
Youth Development / International teams ARE better structured than they ever were

Those points are inarguable.

Part of it is that we have had a run where we haven't hit the Duff / Keane / Given / Keane type lotto. And part of it is that the current scenario without significant structural change is always going to leave the senior team hoping that the stream of solid pro prospects contains one or two supreme talents.