Episode 5x10: 'Mother's Mercy' - READERS thread

MrWalsh

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Anyone else bothered by the Arya face thing. Did she just take a face from the rack and slap it on? Seems a bit too easy. That whole plot line seems unnecessarily riddly and complex.

It was the face of the young girl who she gave death to earlier in the season.

They didnt really explain how she came by the knowledge to do it tbh.

I wasnt fond of the snatching of the many faces off the dead guy, they just disappeared when she took them, but the one she wore was physical.

Mr Freeze

MrWalsh wrote: »

I wasnt fond of the snatching of the many faces off the dead guy, they just disappeared when she took them, but the one she wore was physical.

Oh that was brutal.

It was like something from Mission Impossible or Scooby Doo.

MrWalsh

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Oh that was brutal.

It was like something from Mission Impossible or Scooby Doo.

Im not sure I understood what was going on (or supposed to be going on) in that scene tbh.

PopePalpatine

I think the intention is to make Arya feel alone.

Daith

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I think the intention is to make Arya feel alone.

True.

I tend to judge the show on it's own merits but the books really do it better. No matter how much Arya tries to be "no one" a part of her is still in the Riverlands leading a pack and being a Stark. Not sure if the show will be able to go down this route.

MrWalsh

I did see a funny comment on Reddit.

A man approaches Stannis and says "half the men deserted, they took all the horses".

A couple of minutes later a man approaches Stannis and says "The red woman was seen riding away from camp"

On what? A bicycle?

Lyssa

MrWalsh wrote: »

I did see a funny comment on Reddit.

A man approaches Stannis and says "half the men deserted, they took all the horses".

A couple of minutes later a man approaches Stannis and says "The red woman was seen riding away from camp"

On what? A bicycle?

The night is dark, and full of horses.... :rolleyes:

Taboola

I enjoyed the episode and enjoyed the season as a whole.

I don't get why there's so much negativity about it.

awec

For all the talk of Kit Harrington saying he's definitely not coming back for season 6, I wonder if the Wall story will just be parked next season (like Bran and the Iron Islands this season).

It could end up like the books where specific storylines are focused on.

Sleepy

MrWalsh wrote: »

This is a bit coulda woulda shoulda.

I cant saw Ive seen any "excuses" for anything this season? Im not really sure what you are referring to - are you saying the producers are apologising after the fact for particular episodes - despite this being a hugely successful production?

I dont agree that lots of scenes this season didnt work. A handful over 10 episodes, but more than made up for with the rest IMO.

I loved all the previous seasons but this one has had a notable drop-off in quality: the Teenage Ninja Dornish Sand Snakes (in fact, the entire Dornish sup-plot) and the handling of Stannis in particular.

Why do you think an actress invoking a non nudity clause is about prudishness? Theres lots a reasons an actor or actress doesnt do nudity. I think its important to respect the choice of anyone who doesnt want to do it. I dont have to get my kit off when I go to work and frankly if I did Id be looking for a different job!

Are you an actress playing a character who has to make a naked walk of atonement in season 5 of the series? Nope, didn't think so. What other reason is there to invoke a non-nudity clause than prudery? I agree that no-one should be forced to do nude scenes but at the same time, you shouldn't hire someone to play a role which necessitates it if they want to invoke such a clause.

All that said, it's the decision to do the scene with CGI that annoys me. Either hire an actress prepared to commit to the role or if you truly feel the only person for that role is an actress who won't do it, film her doing the scene in a way that protects her modesty. Don't piss away the budget on unnecessary CGI when there's plenty of other areas you could invest it for a far greater return. Like a competent script writer / second unit for the Dorne scenes or to stretch the season to another episode (granted that would have required far more savings than they could have made from this one scene but you get the point). Even spending the extra few quid on the CGI of Danaerys riding Drogon would have been a better return.

Perhaps if theyd saved money on this scene they would have spent it on another scene that people moan unnecessarily about?

If people dont enjoy the show then, switch it off?

I loved all the previous seasons but this one has had a notable drop-off in quality. It's changing from a show that was on a par with the best television of all time (e.g. The Wire, The Sopranos or Breaking Bad) to one that's about on a par with The Walking Dead or Spartacus and I think that's a disservice to the source material, to previous seasons and to the fans.

The really annoying thing is that it's seemingly being done purely to try and wrap things up in 7 seasons instead of taking the 8/9 seasons it clearly needs (and that HBO want).

awec

To be fair, the later books also slowed down significantly. Parts of the later books were honestly pretty mundane and seemed to contain a few pointless storylines that end up going nowhere.

tipparetops

too rushed, everything this series is too rushed.
I had to watch the last episode twice.
The show goes from brilliant to Xena style carry on.

amos13

Valar Morghulis.

I'm now more convinced than ever that the white walkers will win the eventual battle. Maybe they aren't evil but are the ones saving the realm from people. So we keep hearing all men must die assuming that it's just a phrase people say when someone dies but what if GRRM means that in the end, everyone dies, and he's been telling us all along it would happen and we didn't realise. Coldhands didn't exactly seem evil did he?

To be honest unless they resurrect jon I have nobody living left to root for.

Mr. Incognito

MrWalsh wrote: »

As far as I can tell people complain no matter what they do. Some people should just stop watching the show. If it infuriates you so much that you are complaining every episode - then why watch it? There are many posters in this forum who do nothing but complain.

And that should tell you something- It's the READERS thread.

That's people that have a lot invested in the books and want it to suceed.

The reason that they got to book five and have re-read them in a lot of instances is that the characters are interesting and people are invested in them.

There are a lot of people complaining because they have departed from the books. Everyone knows that you have to cut material for TV, Fine.

But rewriting whole tracts of the character arcs should be done for a reason.

The reasons appear to be laziness and are very very sloppy.

1. Arya being able to wear other faces. Blinded by magic- off on a rampage.

Didn't happen in the books. It's shoddy writing.

2. Brienne of Tarth in the North, sitting under a window looking for a candle, cut to middle of deserted wood with everyone dead bar two raiders who die and lets have an execution

Didn't happen in the books. It's shoddy writing.

3. Jamie and Bronn go visit Zena.

Didn't happen in the books. It's shoddy writing.

4. Sansa Stark in Winterfell

Didn't happen in the books. It's shoddy writing.

5. Jon off to collect the Wildlings, strolls back to leave them through and then gets killed for that

Didn't happen in the books. It's shoddy writing. The actual reason for his death at the hands of the watch- attempting to march on winterfell -made sense. This traitor tombstone did not.

6. Stannis, the iron-willed, survivor of sieges, lifter of the onion knight, murders his daughter?? Then commits tactical suicide.

Didn't happen in the books. It's shoddy writing. Utterly utterly unforgivable to assisinate his character like that in two tripe episodes


One or two, fine. But practically every single character arc has been totally destroyed in this season, in the laziest, stupidest most TV cliche way possible.

Oh look, she's lighting the candle, Noooooooooooooo

Oh look, Benjen Stark is back, Nooooooooooooo

Oh look, Tits in a jail and throw in a bad **** reference Noooooooooooo

When you have amazing amazing amazing source material and sticking to that has made you sucessful to depart from it, well led to a shoddy rushed crap product.

If people, even the majority want to complain, it's because there is A LOT to complain about.

I am so angry they made such a balls of it.

Mickeroo

Dorne was the only part that was inferior to the books for me. Apart from a lot of the stuff last night being too rushed I thought they did a good job overall of adapting two fairly bloated uneventful books, I think the show will improve next year again when if the story starts pushing on with a bit more purpose. Most of the big changes have been welcome, Sansa's storyline in particular is much better.

Daith

Mickeroo wrote: »

Dorne was the only part that was inferior to the books for me. Apart from a lot of the stuff last night being too rushed I thought they did a good job overall of adapting two fairly bloated uneventful books, I think the show will improve next year again when if the story starts pushing on with a bit more purpose. Most of the big changes have been welcome, Sansa's storyline in particular is much better.

I'm not sure about Sansa given it's almost a retread of her Joffrey stuff.

Dorne has been a big let down I'd agree.

The books have been spinning their wheels for a long time now. Getting Tyrion to Dany and Meeren is much better than the books.

Eugene Norman

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

One or two, fine. But practically every single character arc has been totally destroyed in this season, in the laziest, stupidest most TV cliche way possible.

Oh look, she's lighting the candle, Noooooooooooooo



I am so angry they made such a balls of it.

The tv show is clearly way ahead of the books in many cases, and probably the books will catch up. And the quality of writing in the books dropped off in the last few anyway. As a reader of the books ( and I mean before the TV series, most readers came to them after), I am happy enough, since the last two books were ponderous.

Daith

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The tv show is clearly way ahead of the books in many cases. And the quality of writing in the books dropped off in the last few anyway. As a reader of the books ( and I mean before the TV series, most readers came to them after), I am happy enough.

Agreed though maybe that's because I don't give a crap about Lady Stoneheart, the Iron Islands, FAgeon, and others.

Jamie's trip through the Riverlands is something I missed but it still could happen.

amos13

Taboola wrote:

I enjoyed the episode and enjoyed the season as a whole.

Taboola wrote:

I don't get why there's so much negativity about it.

Personally speaking, I found it boring apart from a tiny amount of shocking scenes, which were inserted just to shock rather than to develop the story.

I wouldn't mind the omission of the riverlands arc if dorne had of been interesting, but the riverlands would have been infinitely better than that tripe. We could have just heard on the grapevine that Myrcella had been killed. Nobody would have batted an eyelid.

I'm no prude, but the show runners OBSESSION with raping/ battering/ destroying women and young girls in EVERY episode is shameful. They should take a serious look at themselves, its not in the book, its not necessary for the story, its just their own perverted view of what is good TV.

As others have said, deviations from source are fine and to be expected if they further the plot, condense it for time constraints etc. But to remove vital characters to save screen time for minor characters and rape scenes is just, ugh.

Daith

amos13 wrote: »

I'm no prude, but the show runners OBSESSION with raping/ battering/ destroying women and young girls in EVERY episode is shameful. They should take a serious look at themselves, its not in the book, its not necessary for the story, its just their own perverted view of what is good TV.

Eh, isn't there a part in the books where Ramsey is talking about Fake Arya screwing a dog? Or Theon "helping her". Lady Hornwood eating her own fingers? Blame the source here. The Sansa stuff was pretty tame in the show.

PopePalpatine

I'm just wondering right now - how did the Small Council and the powers that be in King's Landing react to Jon becoming Lord Commander? I know it wasn't covered in the show, but what about the books?

Jon Stark

I vaguely recollect reading a rumour that the Riverlands will be making a return next season alongside the Iron Islands.

Daith

Jon Stark wrote: »

I vaguely recollect reading a rumour that the Riverlands will be making a return next season alongside the Iron Islands.

Having Jamie going through the Riverlands (after the apparent death of his daughter) would be a pretty good idea if they can get the introspective right.

amos13

Yeah I remember those references, but they were just that, references. They weren't graphic and they weren't pervasive through the series. I also recall Jamie/ Cersei, Dany/ Drogo etc having sex and not rape. The changes were unnecessary for the plot.

Daith

amos13 wrote: »

Yeah I remember those references, but they were just that, references. They weren't graphic and they weren't pervasive through the series.

Kinda of a difference between TV and a book though? Women being treated like **** has been a running theme of the books.

amos13 wrote: »

I also recall Jamie/ Cersei, Dany/ Drogo etc having sex and not rape. The changes were unnecessary for the plot.

I don't think there's any real difference between Dany/Drogo (at the start) and Ramsey/Sansa tbh. What happens to Fake Arya in the books is much worse than what happened to Sansa in the show.

awec

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm just wondering right now - how did the Small Council and the powers that be in King's Landing react to Jon becoming Lord Commander? I know it wasn't covered in the show, but what about the books?

As far as I remember there was no (or little) reaction to it in the books.

PopePalpatine

I was reading through the non-readers' thread, and one poster asked what was the point of Myranda threatening Sansa with the bow and arrow. I would imagine that Myranda would probably shoot Sansa in the leg, thus crippling her...and I very much doubt anyone in House Bolton will care as long as she can still produce an heir.

ArmaniJeanss

awec wrote: »

As far as I remember there was no (or little) reaction to it in the books.

Didn't Cersei have some convoluted plot to send Osnftyd Kettleback to kill Jon?

Mr Freeze

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

And that should tell you something- It's the READERS thread.

That's people that have a lot invested in the books and want it to suceed.
.
.
.
If people, even the majority want to complain, it's because there is A LOT to complain about.

I am so angry they made such a balls of it.

Its like you were in my head and managed to say everything I couldn't.:pac:

Could not agree more!

Son0vagun

It just occurred to me, there's no way Brienne would kill Stannis, no way she'd become a King Slayer. She ridiculed Jaime for being just that. I'm going with Stannis is alive.

MrWalsh

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

And that should tell you something- It's the READERS thread.

That's people that have a lot invested in the books and want it to suceed.

.......
.......
.......

I am so angry they made such a balls of it.

But its not like the books are being taken away from you? You can still read the book. What people have invested in the books is irrelevant to the tv show. They are two different animals.

Genuinely, if a tv show is making you angry enough to type ranty posts like that - then you dont have to watch it.

Im delighted to see a story I enjoy being brought to life on tv. I dont care a bit about the CGI or changes to the storyline etc.... The books still exist (Im actually rereading them right now). The tv show is like an extra that we get for free. If you dont like it, dont watch it.

I just find it bizarre how negative people are. Its fine to have criticisms, I thought they wasted Dorne too, but your post above literally just rants about every single aspect of the show. Seriously dude, if it upsets you that much, then switch off the tv.

awec

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Didn't Cersei have some convoluted plot to send Osnftyd Kettleback to kill Jon?

Oh yea! I forgot all about that.

GerB40

Jon Stark wrote: »

I vaguely recollect reading a rumour that the Riverlands will be making a return next season alongside the Iron Islands.

I hope that's true. There's such a disconnect between season 5 and earlier seasons that even a mention of the Blackfish or the bwb would be welcome. Also, now that Arya has been exposed to magic maybe she'll start dreaming of a pack of wild wolves roaming the Riverlands. With Bran back next season it would be nice connection between two Stark kids being able to warg..

GerB40

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Didn't Cersei have some convoluted plot to send Osnftyd Kettleback to kill Jon?

That plot was scuppered when Kettleback testified against Cercei..

Jofspring

Son0vagun wrote: »

It just occurred to me, there's no way Brienne would kill Stannis, no way she'd become a King Slayer. She ridiculed Jaime for being just that. I'm going with Stannis is alive.

She doesn't believe Stannis to be he one true king so to her it's not Kingslaying.

Son0vagun

Jofspring wrote: »

She doesn't believe Stannis to be he one true king so to her it's not Kingslaying.

She knows Thommon is not the one true king!

Liam O

The problem is that it's impossible to do something on this scale with the budget and just 10 episodes. HBO was the right network for the start of the series but as it's gone on I can't help but feel an ad based network like Showtime would have been a better fit for the show.

Budget constraints mean characters have to come together more, things are conveniently forgotten about and characters change every episode. They were killing characters in that last episode purely to save on costs. They reintroduced Shireen and Selyse after cutting them for that payoff.

It's never felt like they had a plan for me in the show. Something like this should have been completely planned out from at the very latest season 2 but every season has rushed character arcs and episodes that feel like you're just checking in on everyone. The sand snake arc was pointless even though I didn't mind the actual content. Purely seemed to be a keep Jaime out of town vehicle. The most interesting Dornish characters cut in Arianne and Darkstar and now a lack of credible threats to a throne weakly guarded by a weak king and it feels like something going nowhere.

Aegon being fake or not is irrelevant. He's there now and a direct threat to the Throne. 3 seasons of just political warfare in KL now while not too much happening away from the wall since Robb's death. Not even the political warfare in the north because they're all cut too.

There's much more I'm not bothering with right now but you get the gist.

artvandelay48

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Cersei's walk was dragged out, a lot. It seemed like they were just trying to flaunt Lena's nudity because they could.

This. I found it too much. As much as I like Lena Headey and as much as I like female nudity, it felt a bit prurient to me.

Liam O

artvandelay48 wrote: »

This. I found it too much. As much as I like Lena Headey and as much as I like female nudity, it felt a bit prurient to me.

It's supposed to be too much. It breaks her by all accounts in the books and she's one of the most stubborn characters. Excess is used as the tool, you're not supposed to enjoy it. I thought it was by far the best scene of the episode and probably 2nd best after Hardhome in the season.

Pumpkinseeds

I'm feeling very underwhelmed by the series. The only episode that I really enjoyed was Hardhome. Usually I'd be glued to the tv for each episode but for this season I found myself checking e-mails and reading during episodes because it was all a bit 'meh'. If the next season doesn't up it's game I'll probably stop watching.

Mormegil

MrWalsh wrote: »

I wasnt fond of the snatching of the many faces off the dead guy, they just disappeared when she took them, but the one she wore was physical.

Illusion just like the Kindly man does in the books, or is the skull with a worm coming out of it's eye socket that he shows Arya meant to be a real face?

MrWalsh

Mormegil wrote: »

Illusion just like the Kindly man does in the books, or is the skull with a worm coming out of it's eye socket that he shows Arya meant to be a real face?

I dont know. I might rewatch this scene at some stage, I feel I may have missed subtle nuances.

CiaranW

I reckon Trystane will be on to the Sand Snakes plot to kill Myrcella and have the antidote to the poison.
He would have grown up with the Sand Snakes always around.

MrWalsh

CiaranW wrote: »

I reckon Trystane will be on to the Sand Snakes plot to kill Myrcella and have the antidote to the poison.
He would have grown up with the Sand Snakes always around.

Well if he doesnt I dont fancy his chances being alone on the ship with Jaime and Bronn!

Daith

MrWalsh wrote: »

Well if he doesnt I dont fancy his chances being alone on the ship with Jaime and Bronn!

Hi Cersei, your daughter died by poisoning while we were in Dorne. Don't know how. Oh this is Trystane. Show him where the small council meet would ya.

Dyr

Daith wrote: »

Hi Cersei, your daughter died by poisoning while we were in Dorne. Don't know how. Oh this is Trystane. Show him where the small council meet would ya.

"like the haircut btw"

Just because it was on and because I was there, I watched the episode again when it came on Sky Atlantic last night. One thing that I slightly overlooked on my original viewing; Stephen Dillane, no matter how you feel about his character Stannis, is a master of his craft. I will definitely be seeking out other shows/movies he has been in. If his GoT days are done, he is another who along with Rory McCann (The Hound) the show will be weaker without IMO.

So if Stannis is dead, what was the point of his story? Pure, concentrated tragedy, every great dramatic story has one. The look on Stannis/Dillane's face as the Bolton cavalry closed on his depleted, downtrodden, doomed army was perfection - The image of a man who knew he took the ultimate gamble in life, lost everything, and now comes the inevitable end - For whatever reason, this is the way it has gone, fúck it anyway, but let's do it.

Stannis gambled the lives of his daughter, wife, army, homelands and people and knew in that moment that he failed every single person and thing that he stood for. In the few seconds afforded to him to visually react to a green-screened, non-existent oncoming cavalry in an episode chock-full of events, Stephen Dillane shone. Although the character deserved to die in the end, I still somehow wish Brienne's sword landed in the tree bark just so Dillane can still be in the show.

The fact that I can still empathise with the character, and even go as far as saying that I have some hope for him just one week after watching him burn his daughter to death, is testament to the skills of Stephen Dillane. I initially thought that Brienne did kill him, that Stannis has absolutely nothing to live for now and his arc has ended with his defeat at Winterfell. But what about Melisandre? Although Stannis' fate was essentially his own doing, he was lead into it by the reassurances of Melisandre and her interpretations of her fiery visions. These reassurances lead to Stannis sacrificing his daughter and by consequence his wife, and then in his darkest hour Melisandre abandoned him without a word or a second thought.

Whatever business Melisandre has at the Wall, I could see Stannis hunting her down once that has concluded and it being a sufficient reason to keep the character alive. However, keeping him alive to send him off on a wacky quest to Dorne with Bronn in search of the Bad Pussy or something? Forget it, I'd rather he died where Brienne found him, and leave me there too.

It can be said that revenge isn't in the character's nature, he is straight-up and seemed accepting of his impending death in those final moments with him admitting that he murdered his brother without looking to pass the blame on or rationalise the action, and then telling Brienne to just do her duty without pleading for his life. I think the character could still maintain these honorable traits were he to survive and seek out the Red Lady. Melisandre and Stannis have been tied since their introduction and it wouldn't be a reach to see them die together in a one final, passionate showdown. Maybe he couldn't leave the world just yet while knowing that Burny McFire was still breathing and spreading her poison, as Stannis would see her preachings by now.

In short - Stannis surviving wouldn't be the worst thing for me were it handled the right way. Him dying and the way it happened and not seeing him again would be just alright too, story-wise. However, the show will suffer without Stephen Dillane. This show has pokey moments, a few more than ever lately, but Dillane reminded us of the show's potential and the reasons why we tuned in in the first place.

I fear those reasons are becoming scarcer now though. If Stannis and Jon are dead, who are left to honestly give a fúck about? Anyway, that's getting away from the main point of this post - Never mind Stannis, Stephen Dillane is the man.

Daith

stankratz wrote: »

So if Stannis is dead, what was the point of his story? Pure, concentrated tragedy, every great dramatic story has one. The look on Stannis/Dillane's face as the Bolton cavalry closed on his depleted, downtrodden, doomed army was perfection - The image of a man who knew he took the ultimate gamble in life, lost everything, and now comes the inevitable end - For whatever reason, this is the way it has gone, fúck it anyway, but let's do it.

"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day" Donal Noye

celica00

I know it's supposed to be different to the books...but that season was really disappointing me. Especially the last episode.

I think it's great for non-readers now, but for a book reader the season just disappointed (me) way too much. I was looking forward to some action but fair enough, they went more into the stories of characters now.


Not happy with this Season at all now, I will start re-reading the books and just stick to that.

2ndcoming

Daith wrote: »

"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day" Donal Noye

That's what I don't like about the show's suggested demise for Stannis, it was done in the name of the one who was "pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day".

Renly was a tosser who thought he could just name himself king for the craic, ignoring all the rules of succession in the book. He was the polar opposite of Stannis who felt he had no choice but to do his duty and take Robert's place as rightful king.

At least we know they can't wheel out Brienne the Legend Killer in the book, she's far away in the Riverlands thank fook.