Episode 5x10: 'Mother's Mercy' - READERS thread

whomitconcerns

In case anyone at all was in any doubt about who Ser Robert Strong was....i know there isnt..but anyway..

from Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson's imdb page

Game of Thrones (TV Series)
Gregor Clegane
- Mother's Mercy (2015) ... Gregor Clegane
- The Mountain and the Viper (2014) ... Gregor Clegane

2ndcoming

2ndcoming wrote: »

That's what I don't like about the show's suggested demise for Stannis, it was done in the name of the one who was "pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day".

Renly was a tosser who thought he could just name himself king for the craic, ignoring all the rules of succession in the book. He was the polar opposite of Stannis who felt he had no choice but to do his duty and take Robert's place as rightful king.

At least we know they can't wheel out Brienne the Legend Killer in the book, she's far away in the Riverlands thank fook.

Better hope GRRM doesn't lurk in the thread here, otherwise kiss goodbye to what's left of your soul. He'd find a way to make it happen, it would be known as The Boardsie Knot.

Liam O

Stannis would make a great Lord Commander. It would make sense somewhat that Brienne didn't want to become a kingslayer and would allow him to take the black. His character is pretty ruined though even despite the fact there are deplorable people in the watch. It would also require him giving up his claim which he would be loath to do surely?

MrWalsh

whomitconcerns wrote: »

In case anyone at all was in any doubt about who Ser Robert Strong was....i know there isnt..but anyway..

A book reader I had lunch with hadnt realised!!!

MrWalsh

Liam O wrote: »

It would make sense somewhat that Brienne didn't want to become a kingslayer....

He wasnt the king.

Hyzepher

The one big con that's transitioned through the books and tv show is that there is no true king, there is no conqueror, there is no value in the Iron throne now that Winter is here.

All the kings across the land can seek out the throne and fight among themselves, but it will not matter in the end.

That is why main characters can die without any real closure in their story arcs - because real life doesn't guarantee anything and even those who we root for can find themselves beaten and forgotten.

The betrayal of Jon Snow is the catalyst that will allow the White Walkers access to the south. it is the only true arc that will be true to its foreboding. The war will shift significantly and shift soon.

Liam O

MrWalsh wrote: »

He wasnt the king.

He is the rightful king and she knows that. A bit disingenuous to say that too. Were Robb, Renly and Balon not either?

MrWalsh

Liam O wrote: »

He is the rightful king and she knows that. A bit disingenuous to say that too. Were Robb, Renly and Balon not either?

No he isnt.

Whoever is sitting on the throne is the King. Tommen is until someone throws him off. Stannis never succeeded in throwing him off.

Stannis had a claim. He never realised that claim and took the throne.

Robb, Renly, Balon, none of them were the King of Westeros.

jooksavage

Pretty disappointed with this season and beginning to wonder about the show in general (I will still watch it through to very end unless it gets way, way, way worse than this. It's still pretty good TV). About half-way through I thought it was going to be really great and would be an improvement over the sometimes meandering books. Four things in particular stood out:

-Stannis' relationship with Jon and Shireen did a great job at humanizing him. I thought the showrunners were finally giving him a break.
-The non-appearance of young Griff was welcome and Tyrion's journey to Mereen is mercifully shorter for it.
-Jaime's trip to Dorne was initially promising. He even brought Bronn along!
-Sansa's story was a huge deviation from the books and had could have made her a great character. Under Littlefinger's tutelage she was becoming more cynical and I thought (especially after Littlefinger's speech about avenging the ones you love) that she was going to hand out some Lady Stoneheart-esque justice to the Boltons with the "smallfolk" of Winterfell behind her ("the North remembers")

So much promise. At least Tyrion's journey was a marked improvement on the books. But everything else...

- The killing of Shireen was a massive disappointment and completely at odds with Stannis' direction up to that point. Maybe that was the point. Maybe it was meant to be more devastating because we were starting to warm to him. It just seemed extremely jarring and weird to me and made for a really bummed-out episode 9.
- It didn't take long for Sansa to revert to helpless victim mode for another season. Great character development there. And Ramsay isn't threatening. He's a ridiculous, one-dimensional cipher. I'm actually more interested to see how Roose Bolton reacts when he gets his own richly-deserved comeuppance.
- Jaime's Dornish excursion was an unfathomable waste of time. Areo Hotah didn't even get to kill someone with that axe. Oh God, what the hell?

That said, Hardhome was a masterpiece and the white walkers stuff was great, especially the resurrection scenes.

I'd be interested to see how Benioff and Weiss have the remaining two seasons planned out. Liam Cunningham told Dave Fanning that there are 20 more episodes and that's it. That might sound like a lot but it seems like we're still only in set-up stages: winter hasn't really come yet, the white walkers are still far north of the wall and I'm presuming we're still nowhere near done with Meereen. They're going to have to go hell for leather to get everything into two seasons . Just think - they'll be starting the LAST season this time next year.

As I said, it's still good TV and I'll continue watching unless it gets a lot worse.

podgemonster

Varys wrote:

Power resides where we believe it resides

The thrones, the titles are mere cloaks. In the Game of Thrones people follows those who can protect them, who they believe in or from whom they can gain the most.

Roose turned to Tywin as he had more to gain.
Brienne followed Renly because she loved him
Stannis men deserted him as they no longer believed in him, he lost.

senordingdong

Didn't find Jons alleged demise all that concerning..seemed to be coming a mile away.

Felt Stannis defeat was the real heartache of the episode.

amos13

stankratz wrote:

Whatever business Melisandre has at the Wall, I could see Stannis hunting her down once that has concluded and it being a sufficient reason to keep the character alive. However, keeping him alive to send him off on a wacky quest to Dorne with Bronn in search of the Bad Pussy or something? Forget it, I'd rather he died where Brienne found him, and leave me there too.

If he survives and its a big if, I can see it working out whereby Brienne agrees to spare him if he helps rescue Sansa. Considering Ned was the one to give Stannis his bloody crown in the first place, he may feel duty bound to help, and then take the black (since he'll still believe he is the rightful king unless he forsakes it) and somehow become the 1000th LC, effectively being the one to lead the NW against the others (since he's the only one apart from JS, R'hollr have mercy on his soul, who cared about those big legions of pillaging ice zombies). I actually think the whole Stannis death is much more of a cliffhanger than JSs, since book readers are all pretty much in agreement that there's a resurrection afoot.

amos13

jooksavage wrote:

That might sound like a lot but it seems like we're still only in set-up stages: winter hasn't really come yet, the white walkers are still far north of the wall and I'm presuming we're still nowhere near done with Meereen.

Yes but the next two books are called the winds of winter and a dream of spring, so I'm pretty sure next season winter will finally arrive to kick the fnuck out of westeros and then the final season, who knows. The aftermath of the great winter battle? The final clean up of westeros? Hardly climactic so its anyone's guess but next season winter will finally come.

Polka_Dot

I haven't read the books but wanted to ask about something that I've heard happens in them. Is it true that in the books,

Catelyn is resurrected by Thoros of Myr?

Does this mean there is hope for Jon Snow? (Not sure about spoiler tag etiquette so spoilered just in case)

bur

Son0vagun wrote: »

It just occurred to me, there's no way Brienne would kill Stannis, no way she'd become a King Slayer. She ridiculed Jaime for being just that. I'm going with Stannis is alive.

I'm surprised there's so much debate over this, he's obviously still alive.

bur

Polka_Dot wrote: »

I haven't read the books but wanted to ask about something that I've heard happens in them. Is it true that in the books,

Catelyn is resurrected by Thoros of Myr?

Does this mean there is hope for Jon Snow? (Not sure about spoiler tag etiquette so spoilered just in case)

Something i've noticed too with a few of my non reader friends, they are googling what happens Jon Snow.

But yes that is correct.

Mormegil

Polka_Dot wrote: »

I haven't read the books but wanted to ask about something that I've heard happens in them. Is it true that in the books,

Catelyn is resurrected by Thoros of Myr?

Does this mean there is hope for Jon Snow? (Not sure about spoiler tag etiquette so spoilered just in case)

No need to spoiler book material in the book thread.

In answer to your question, it's a little more complicated than that as Thoros refuses to do it but yes Catelyn is resurrected.

Polka_Dot

Thanks, it's something a book reader friend told me a while back but wasn't sure if it was right or not

LionelNashe

bur wrote: »

I'm surprised there's so much debate over this, he's obviously still alive.

Wishful thinking - it would make no sense for Brienne to sentence him to death, swing her sword, and then change her mind mid-swing. His story is over I reckon.

sabat

LionelNashe wrote: »

Wishful thinking - it would make no sense for Brienne to sentence him to death, swing her sword, and then change her mind mid-swing. His story is over I reckon.

I think there may be a clue in Stannis's "last words"- was it really 'her duty' or her right to sentence him to death and execute him? He may be able to help her in her actual duty, saving the Stark kids.

MrWalsh

LionelNashe wrote: »

Wishful thinking - it would make no sense for Brienne to sentence him to death, swing her sword, and then change her mind mid-swing. His story is over I reckon.

We didn't see a dead body. So he's still dancing as far as I'm concerned!

Mr.Prodston

All these potential Stannis redemption arcs really intrigue me and must now happen! They're too good not too. If you're changing from the books give us something interesting and cool and try and redeem a character that was butchered.

bur

LionelNashe wrote: »

Wishful thinking - it would make no sense for Brienne to sentence him to death, swing her sword, and then change her mind mid-swing. His story is over I reckon.

Not at all, if she was going to kill him there and then the set-up and final shot would have been done way differently. Otherwise it's just a moment with zero pay off.

Jofspring

We are talking about the same people that had grey worm save barristan at the last minute from having his throat slit. That gave the impression he was not dead as we didn't actually see him get killed or die. Next episode he is dead.

bur

Fair point, thought Selmy was going to survive that tbh, some awful storytelling right there. Selmy was a secondary character though, a significant difference.

did anyone else think of this during the stabbing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc

super_furry

I always thought that Jon's 'death' was a convenient device to get him away from the Wall. He's dead and his watch is over. Don't doubt for a second hell be back, especially with the way they had Melisandre turn up just before.

JJayoo

What are the chances that Qyburn will stitch a hand back on Jamie?

Jon Stark

I don't doubt that Jon Snow will be resurrected, but I hate this theory going around that he'll be reborn as someone completely different, and that a new actor will be needed (and that's why they believe Kit when he says he won't be back).

If Jon Snow returns I want Jon Snow played by Kit Harrington. I don't want to see a new actor/character getting the possible pay offs of decimating the mutineers, battering Ramsay and defeating the WW.

I've invested 5 years in this ffs, they can fcuk off if that is somehow the plan.

/Rant

:pac:

Graham_B18C

Little question, why does everyone refer to Mountain 2.0 as Robert Strong? I don't ever remember reading that name in the books?

A few pages back people were asking about Daenerys' ring, my take on it was it could have been one of the things from Drogo's braid or something he gave her that she didn't want his gang to see. Could be way off but I reckon it's more likely than it being used to show Jorah and Daario where she's been.

MrWalsh

He is called Ser Robert Strong in the books.

Conall Cernach

sabat wrote: »

I think there may be a clue in Stannis's "last words"- was it really 'her duty' or her right to sentence him to death and execute him? He may be able to help her in her actual duty, saving the Stark kids.

She was also going on about Renly being the rightful king when she knows that Stannis was next in line if Cersei's children are not Robert's so maybe she'll realise she should have supported Stannis at the start.

MrWalsh

Conall Cernach wrote: »

She was also going on about Renly being the rightful king when she knows that Stannis was next in line if Cersei's children are not Robert's so maybe she'll realise she should have supported Stannis at the start.

No one in Westeros can ever prove that Cerseis children are not Roberts. Its just rumour and conjecture. They dont have DNA testing. It doesnt matter what you know, it only matters what you can prove. Unless Cersei publicly admits that they are Jaimes children - which she wont.

artvandelay48

JJayoo wrote: »

What are the chances that Qyburn will stitch a hand back on Jamie?

I think that the greyjoys and the Lannisters are going to team up together so I think qyburn will stitch a tentacle on to Jamie.

Yakuza

MrWalsh wrote: »

No one in Westeros can ever prove that Cerseis children are not Roberts. Its just rumour and conjecture. They dont have DNA testing. It doesnt matter what you know, it only matters what you can prove. Unless Cersei publicly admits that they are Jaimes children - which she wont.

"The gold yielding before the coal" is proof enough. It got Jon Arryn killed, and Ned too.

MrWalsh

Yakuza wrote: »

"The gold yielding before the coal" is proof enough. It got Jon Arryn killed, and Ned too.

What got Jon Arryn killed was his wife poisoning him so she could be with Littlefinger, and to prevent her son being sent away from her.

Conall Cernach

MrWalsh wrote: »

No one in Westeros can ever prove that Cerseis children are not Roberts. Its just rumour and conjecture. They dont have DNA testing. It doesnt matter what you know, it only matters what you can prove. Unless Cersei publicly admits that they are Jaimes children - which she wont.

Yes but Brienne knows, or at least believes, that they are not Robert's so she knows that Stannis is the rightful king following Robert in succession.

MrWalsh

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Yes but Brienne knows, or at least believes, that they are not Robert's so she knows that Stannis is the rightful king following Robert in succession.

Then why did she support Renlys claim?

Lyssa

MrWalsh wrote: »

Then why did she support Renlys claim?

Because she was in love with him

MrWalsh

Lyssa wrote: »

Because she was in love with him

Exactly, so it was nothing to do with Robert not having trueborn heirs.

Savage Tyrant

Renly never intended to succeed to the Iron Throne... He claimed it. There is a difference.
Even if he and his supporters (including Brienne) where aware of the illegitimacy of joffrey and his siblings they would have know the the rights of succession put both Stannis and Shireen ahead of him.
He decided, with the backing of Highgarden and being popular amongst many of the lords of the realm, that he would make a better king than Stannis. So he declared himself king... Anyone could declare themselves King, it would just depend on if they have the support to back it up.

MrWalsh

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Even if he and his supporters (including Brienne) where aware of the illegitimacy of joffrey and his siblings they would have know the the rights of succession put both Stannis and Shireen ahead of him.

Yes, I was responding to this:

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Yes but Brienne knows, or at least believes, that they are not Robert's so she knows that Stannis is the rightful king following Robert in succession.

Brienne didnt allow the knowledge that Stannis is the rightful king in terms of succession stop her from supporting Renlys claim, so there is no reason to think why she should suddenly start supporting Stannis now.

PopePalpatine

I've seen plenty of complaints about how Myrcella succumbed to poison so close to shore. I vaguely remember her ship being visible from the dock she departed from, or am I just wrong there?

Peregrine

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I've seen plenty of complaints about how Myrcella succumbed to poison so close to shore. I vaguely remember her ship being visible from the dock she departed from, or am I just wrong there?

It was visible alright but what are the complaints based on, that they could have went back?

There's no way the Sand Snakes would poison her with something that won't kill her quickly.

PopePalpatine

Nim wrote: »

It was visible alright but what are the complaints based on? That they could have went back?

Yep, that and Oberyn's line "we don't hurt little girls in Dorne".

FunLover18

Conall Cernach wrote:

She was also going on about Renly being the rightful king when she knows that Stannis was next in line if Cersei's children are not Robert's so maybe she'll realise she should have supported Stannis at the start.

I think she'll realise that her support of Renley was out of love and not duty. She goes on about honour in knights but she's constantly guided by her emotions, I think Stannis last words might give her a bit of cop on.

Duckworth_Luas

Stannis' last words to Brienne were "Go on, do your duty"

Brienne's first duty was to protect Renly and she failed. Next her duty was to get Jaime Lannister, who she continually referred to as "Kingslayer", to King's Landing in one piece and she failed. Then her duty was to return Arya Stark to safety and she failed.

Her current duty is to get Sansa Stark out of harm's way, so WTF is she doing seeking revenge for Renly's death.

Stannis' words reminded her of what she should be focussed on, saving Starks not becoming a Kingslayer. My hope is that Brienne hacked the tree out of frustration and let Stannis live.

Stannis has betrayed his family, his men and everything he once held dear. He is now left with no wife, no lands, no children, no crown and no glory. However, he can regain his honour as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.


But he's probably dead. :mad:

Duckworth_Luas

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Stannis' last words to Brienne were "Go on, do your duty"

Brienne's first duty was to protect Renly and she failed. Next her duty was to get Jaime Lannister, who she continually referred to as "Kingslayer", to King's Landing in one piece and she failed. Then her duty was to return Arya Stark to safety and she failed.

Her current duty is to get Sansa Stark out of harm's way, so WTF is she doing seeking revenge for Renly's death.

Stannis' words reminded her of what she should be focussed on, saving Starks not becoming a Kingslayer. My hope is that Brienne hacked the tree out of frustration and let Stannis live.

Stannis has betrayed his family, his men and everything he once held dear. He is now left with no wife, no lands, no children, no crown and no glory. However, he can regain his honour as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.


But he's probably dead. :mad:

I don't think that would be a bad move at all for the show. There's obviously a vacancy for the L.C. position which will be filled for now by Thorne. However, Is Alliser Thorne the best man available to lead Westeros' first line of defence against the oncoming Whitewalkers and keep viewers engrossed in events up there? I don't think so myself.

Stannis might not be currently 'available', but I reckon that if he survived his encounter with Brienne then Castle Black is the first place he would go in search of Melisandre.

Wasn't Jon the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Alliser would likely assume the role upon Jon's 'death' and become L.C. number 999. Stannis Baratheon for 1000?

For the show, I do like that idea. Stannis definitely now fits the profile of the perfect candidate to become a member of the Night's Watch - unless he was hacked to death by Brienne of course.

celica00

Graham_B18C wrote: »

A few pages back people were asking about Daenerys' ring, my take on it was it could have been one of the things from Drogo's braid or something he gave her that she didn't want his gang to see. Could be way off but I reckon it's more likely than it being used to show Jorah and Daario where she's been.

I personally thought it was because she didnt want them to know she is "rich" or a queen.

I actually don't know if it was mentioned in the books since I forgot most of it ha so that's my own theory.

Duckworth_Luas

In another change from the books, the events surrounding Daenerys' ring just before encountering the Dothraki are slightly different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmKhGqWcJGY

5starpool

stankratz wrote: »

I don't think that would be a bad move at all for the show. There's obviously a vacancy for the L.C. position which will be filled for now by Thorne. However, Is Alliser Thorne the best man available to lead Westeros' first line of defence against the oncoming Whitewalkers and keep viewers engrossed in events up there? I don't think so myself.

Stannis might not be currently 'available', but I reckon that if he survived his encounter with Brienne then Castle Black is the first place he would go in search of Melisandre.

Wasn't Jon the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Alliser would likely assume the role upon Jon's 'death' and become L.C. number 999. Stannis Baratheon for 1000?

For the show, I do like that idea. Stannis definitely now fits the profile of the perfect candidate to become a member of the Night's Watch - unless he was hacked to death by Brienne of course.

If Jon does actually die then we have no one at the wall who would be the main character except at the minute Davos. Could he be so grief stricken at the death of Stannis (if he is dead) and Shireen that he joins the watch instead? It's not like we have any indication he is off to the Manderley's or wherever he is in the books.