Episode 5x10: 'Mother's Mercy' - READERS thread

Peregrine

When I watched it at first, I was sure Brienne killed Stannis but after watching it again and reading the arguments here, I'm coming around to the idea of her not killing him.

razorblunt

Nim wrote: »

When I watched it at first, I was sure Brienne killed Stannis but after watching it again and reading the arguments here, I'm coming around to the idea of her not killing him.

It doesn't make sense from a viewpoint of every other character either died onscreen or their body was shown later on, the Septa, the North lady to name a couple.
I think the Lord Commander is the ideal scenario.

jebidiah

Tenner bets Briene cut off Stannis's leg. It looked pretty mangled below the calf.

Do your duty. Cold till the end.

I watched a guy called Preston Jacobs post episode video. His most recent one is pretty good and theorizes that Stannis SENT his men away. To trick the boltons. I'd say it's a similar trick to Robb Stark way back when and could be a likely scenario.

PopePalpatine

I was reading through the Game of Thrones subreddit, and one redditor made the point that the North was really lacking this season in that the North really hasn't remembered.

Conall Cernach

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I was reading through the Game of Thrones subreddit, and one redditor made the point that the North was really lacking this season in that the North really hasn't remembered.

Most of the Northern lords are dead or held hostage so there aren't many fighting men around to rescue her.

PopePalpatine

I get what you're saying, but there was at least some resistance to the Boltons in the books (House Manderly, the mountain clans etc.).

LFC CONNAUGHTON

Although I would love for Jon and Stannis to still be alive it would feel like a bit of a cop out to have 2 fake deaths in one episode.

Dyr

jebidiah wrote: »

Tenner bets Briene cut off Stannis's leg. It looked pretty mangled below the calf.

Do your duty. Cold till the end.

I watched a guy called Preston Jacobs post episode video. His most recent one is pretty good and theorizes that Stannis SENT his men away. To trick the boltons. I'd say it's a similar trick to Robb Stark way back when and could be a likely scenario.

I dont think the writers are that subtle, plus Dillanes sterling "oh fook" acting moment would have been wasted

JJayoo

I think Stannis will offer his life and be burnt by the sexy witch in order to save Jon Snow and that Jon will have warged with the wolf after getting stabbed. So she will put his spirit back into his dead body which is how the white walkers were first created and that will lead to all kinds exciting adventures

spiralism

I've felt this for a while but it's quite clear that 10 hours a series is not enough for the sheer amount of depth that is in this story, even by editing the plot strongly. Liked the episode and the second half of the season in general but they struggled to keep plotlines moving throughout i felt.

Dorne a whole lot of nothing happened except they killed Myrcella off making the whole quest a shaggy dog story. It was like the TV equivalent of Brienne's storyline in AFFC. Trystane Martell left there on the boat so the Sand Snakes just sent the heir of Dorne off to be murdered immediately after by Jaime and ****ed into the sea.

Brienne did the square root of **** all for the entire season, bar being useless to Sansa. (Also, "in the name of Renly Baratheon, rightful king of the seven kingdoms"...uhh love, Renly was the younger brother.)

Littlefinger by and large the same, he cropped up from time to time

Olenna Tyrell another who featured little.

Some plots just drifted in and out, you'd see an episode being Kings Landing centric then would hardly see any of the capital for a couple of episodes, then likewise with Winterfell where you'd have an episode or two where it featured briefly, and another couple of episodes where very little of Arya is seen and so on. 5 mins attention to plot here and there made for frustrating plot development, to the point where at the end of the season there's nothing from the Tyrells or Littlefinger since episode 8.

Even 13 episodes a season would have given them a lot more breathing room in all honesty. It's an extremely complex story to say the very least and taking a massive edit hatchet to it has led to some stupid errors. They've stupidly scrimped on some small things that explain a lot, for example explaining that Cersei also armed the Faith to pay off a debt to the crown and that Jon Snow also allowed the wildlings through so able bodied fighters could man the seriously undermanned nights watch and re-open the closed forts. Literally explaining those would have taken two minutes each time. The latter especially is really important as book Jon retained the support of many, he has the wildling recruits on side as well as those who had always backed him. The show essentially cast it as the entire watch mutinying, were Melisandre to bring him back as speculated, it gives the distinct impression that he'd be just murdered again and they'd kill her along with him to make sure of it.

Also, it's off the point im trying to make but after all the talk beforehand about how Sansa would be different this season and how she'd deal with things differently and become more of a player in it all, they just leave her to be once again horrifically abused by a monster and needing to be saved.

Daith

spiralism wrote: »

Also, it's off the point im trying to make but after all the talk beforehand about how Sansa would be different this season and how she'd deal with things differently and become more of a player in it all, they just leave her to be once again horrifically abused by a monster and needing to be saved.

This is a key one. It's a change from the books and something I was looking forward to. There could have been more done with a Stark back at Winterfell.

Of course it could be a case that Sansa is just **** at playing the game though and can't learn. I suppose going toe to toe with Ramsey/Roose might be a bit too far though.

Thargor

God I hate Grey Worm, what a terrible actor and terrible casting, he's supposed to be the leader of the best fighters in the world and we get this young thicko who always says something stupid in his slow slurred speech and has to be corrected by the other characters, once you notice it you see it happens in every scene, its like he's an actual retard when he should be one of the best characters in it.

You can really tell when they drift from GRRMs writing, all the usual sloppy tv cliches start sneaking in, the dialogue in the throne room when Jorah/Darrio/Grey Worm/Tyrion etc were deciding what to do was just awful, same for Bronn and the sand Snake on the dock, "you like a bad cnut"? It didnt even make sense, absolutely zero chemistry between the 2 and why would there be when the writing is so bad.

Loved the walk of shame though, Qyburn is turning into my favourite character still alive aswell. I cannot wait to see Robert Strong at her trial.

MrWalsh

Thargor wrote: »

.... same for Bronn and the sand Snake on the dock, "you like a bad cnut"? It didnt even make sense, absolutely zero chemistry between the 2 and why would there be when the writing is so bad.

Ah come on, if youre going to laugh at the bad dialogue then at least get it right!

"You want a good girl but you need the bad pussy"

Truly odd, they could have at least given us a 10 second scene of the two of them in bed together for a line of dialogue like that to have had some context.

MarkR

Yeah, they didn't really have time to bond. She flashed her tits (no complaints here), had him sing, gave him an antidote, and that's pretty much it.

Liam O

I'd be more annoyed at Davos not getting a proper goodbye to/from Stannis if he is dead. Given how much they telegraph things in the show the lack of that would give me optimism he's not dead.

What did Shireen and Selyse actually add to the show given they went to such pains to reintroduce them after dropping them? A reason to hate Stannis? Selyse is the horrible one in the books and she comes out of it looking rosy. It's things like that that would make me think that there's no real planning going on past 1 or 2 seasons time.

Mr Freeze

I think Stannis is dead.

The show tend to keep actors/characters they like around a lot longer, Bronn for example.

Why would they keep Stannis around another season or two after they have changed/ruined the character so much.

The show writers hate Stannis. They made Stannis the villain and now they killed their baddie off.

Thargor

Oh yeah, the thing I came in here to post and forgot about:

In the books Jon gets stabbed by his brothers because he was going to ride out and attack Ramsay with the Watch after the pink letter, that was a righteous act by the Nights Watch and something that makes GRRMs writing kind of unique compared to other fantasy writers... But why was he killed here? For a few hundred Wildlings settled in The Gift? Didn't the army of the dead at Hardhome change their opinions slightly? Why even open the gate for them if they're so repulsed by it that they'd mutiny and murder a Lord Commander? It doesn't make any sense...

Daith

Mr Freeze wrote: »

The show writers hate Stannis. They made Stannis the villain and now they killed their baddie off.

Using shadow babies to kill your brother hardly makes you a hero. He had no problem burning other people alive too.
Ramsay is the real villain at the minute.

Thargor wrote: »

But why was he killed here? For a few hundred Wildlings settled in The Gift? Didn't the army of the dead at Hardhome change their opinions slightly?

Sure, Jon got a bunch of Nights Watch killed by an undead army in order to save some wildlings. He put Wildlings before his brothers.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Sam: And so after that Ghost appeared. and long story short, cherry is popped.
John: Wait, what happened to Ghost?
Sam: He faded out of existence, like he did when you got captured by the wildlings. Nothing to hint that he existed besides a scrap of paper entitled "CGI Invoice".
John: ... and what do you mean cherry -popped?
Sam: You know. [winks]
John: [laughs] you copped off?
Sam: Well, yeah.
John: I hate to do this Sam, but you broke your vows. Olly, my sword.
[Olly runs up to John with sword, followed by gang who start stabbing John]
John: Why you do this? Guys staph. Does no-one take vows seriously around here? Ah, a friendly face [Olly stands before John] ... Olly.
[Olly stabs John. John falls onto ground and starts bleeding out]
John: Olly... Olly...
Gang: Oi oi oi.
Thorne: And now we are safe from the wildlings.
Sam: Which ones? The 10s of thousands of undead ones at the other side of the wall, or the 5,000 this side who will be pretty hostile to the people who killed their lord commander because of his friendliness to wildlings.
Thorne: Seven hells I forgot I let them through. Thonemond bowl get hype.
Gang: meh.



Myranda: We need you alive so Ramsay can have a son. But he doesn't need all of you for that.
Sansa: Why?
Myranda: Don't be dense, he means to control the north.
Sansa: By having a son?
Myranda: Yes
Sansa: But he married me. If I were to die, he'd get it by default. And he would be wise to kill me.
Myranda: Why?
Sansa: Because I'm here. For revenge.
Myranda: Huh?
Sansa: I am here for revenge. I knew what Ramsay was before coming here: what he was and what he did. I will not stop until I have that candle lit in that tower. You guys have got it coming to you. I will have escaped and Ramsay will kill himself from loneliness.
Myranda: Kill himself?
Sansa: Probably by jumping off of the walls or something. That's certain death. Oh yes... I prepared well before coming here. Even though the candle thing was actually suggested by a woman who is now dead, who in turn was told to do so by a woman in full armour whom I told to piss off and almost got killed by Vale knights. Oh I am a political schemer as good as they come.
Reek: At least you didn't tell your plan to Littlefinger's brothel manager. Now *that* would have been stupid.

Mr Freeze

Daith wrote: »

Using shadow babies to kill your brother hardly makes you a hero. He had no problem burning other people alive too.
Ramsay is the real villain at the minute.

I never called him a hero.

Its Game of Thrones, there are no heroes. :pac:

But I do defend his killing of Renly. Renly had no claim and split the Baratheon supporters and weakened Stannis' support by half. Renly was intent in meeting Stannis in battle, so killing him before any battle and saving losses to both armies was a good move, as a lot of those men joined Stannis. ( but granted they later shat themselves at the Blackwater when they saw the "Ghost of Renly").

MrWalsh

Mr Freeze wrote: »

I never called him a hero.

Its Game of Thrones, there are no heroes. :pac:

But I do defend his killing of Renly. Renly had no claim and split the Baratheon supporters and weakened Stannis' support by half. Renly was intent in meeting Stannis in battle, so killing him before any battle and saving losses to both armies was a good move, as a lot of those men joined Stannis. ( but granted they later shat themselves at the Blackwater when they saw the "Ghost of Renly").

Ah here, killing using magic is a bit sneaky though.

Daith

MrWalsh wrote: »

Ah here, killing using magic is a bit sneaky though.

Exactly. Stannis the "Mannis" sending his Red Priestess to do the dirty work?

Never got the idea that he was anything but someone who was being used by Melisandre because he thought she had power.

Mr Freeze wrote: »

I never called him a hero.

Its Game of Thrones, there are no heroes. :pac:

There's no heroes but there are villains? Interesting.

Mr Freeze

MrWalsh wrote: »

Ah here, killing using magic is a bit sneaky though.

It was brutal and an awful thing to do to his own brother, but Renly had made his position clear, there was going to be a battle, both Baratheon kings could have exited The War of the Five Kings if that battle went ahead.

So from Stannis' point of view it was necessary, Battle was not an option.

Daith

Mr Freeze wrote: »

So from Stannis' point of view it was necessary, Battle was not an option.

Likewise the killing of Shireen then? From his point of view he needed help getting to Winterfell.

Mr Freeze

Daith wrote: »

There's no heroes but there are villains? Interesting.

Stannis the villain is just a term that been thrown around a good bit since he appeared in the show especially on A Forum of Ice and Fire.

Daith wrote: »

Likewise the killing of Shireen then? From his point of view he needed help getting to Winterfell.

No way am I defending anything TV show Stannis does. The writers can do that. I hope he doesn't do that in the books.

I was totally disgusted with the way Stannis was handled in the show, back to my point the show writers do not like Stannis and wrote him more bad than grey so why would they keep him around from another season or two?

It would be great if they did, I think he would be a great Lord Commander, but I think the writers hate the character hence the character assassination this season.

Daith

Mr Freeze wrote: »

No way am I defending anything TV show Stannis does. The writers can do that. I hope he doesn't do that in the books.

I don't see much of a difference between killing your brother on your quest for power and killing your daughter.

Though I suspect Mel in the books will kill Shireen without Stannis knowing tbh.

Mr Freeze wrote: »

I was totally disgusted with the way Stannis was handled in the show, back to my point the show writers do not like Stannis and wrote him more bad than grey so why would they keep him around from another season or two?

How is he "more bad". He's killed his family with sneaky blood magic and seems easily led by Melisandre in both?

What makes him more bad?

Mr Freeze

Daith wrote: »

How is he "more bad". He's killed his family with sneaky blood magic and seems easily led by Melisandre in both?

What makes him more bad?

His brother rose up against him first, one of them was going to die most likely.

Poor Shireen did nothing to Stannis, she didn't rise up against him, she was just a kid unlucky enough to be his daughter and he burnt her, that was f**king evil.

Killing Renly had an obvious and predictable outcome, and I defend this move.

Killing Shireen was a gamble, there was no guarantee that her death would win Stannis anything, it is indefensible in my opinion.

So TV Show Stannis is not someone who I would root for after that killing Shireen.

EDIT, if the book version ends up doing the same thing, the f**k the both of them!

FunLover18

Daith wrote:

I don't see much of a difference between killing your brother on your quest for power and killing your daughter.

How is he "more bad". He's killed his family with sneaky blood magic and seems easily led by Melisandre in both?

There's a massive difference. Renley was far from innocent, not denying g what Stannis did was sneaky but Renly was trying to usurp the throne with no justifiable claim.

Shireen was a complete innocent and Stannis's heir. And the terrible writing in the show meant that Stannis went from being the best dad alive to worst because twenty men burnt some tents.

Daith

Mr Freeze wrote: »

EDIT, if the book version ends up doing the same thing, the f**k the both of them!

So the only thing that makes him "more bad" is killing Shireen? Ok. Be curious to see how if it happens in the books.

FunLover18 wrote: »

Shireen was a complete innocent and Stannis's heir. And the terrible writing in the show meant that Stannis went from being the best dad alive to worst because twenty men burnt some tents.

He's still the same man being led by Mel. It's never been his agenda that he's working towards. He wanted to kill Edric Storm. What was he guilty of?

Jofspring

At the end of the day Shireen was his daughter, a little girl who did nothing to anyone, an intelligent child that he brought people from all over the world to help save when she was younger and on what seemed in the show a whim he burned her alive.

Renly was a grown man, his brother but not one we were ever given an impression he liked. A brother who was trying to jump the queue and go to war with Stannis.

Eric Storm again a kid he didn't really know so not that unplausible to think he would sacrifice him.

spiralism

Good post spiralism, which if you don't mind I'll use to express some of my own views on the problems with the episode/show.

spiralism wrote: »

I've felt this for a while but it's quite clear that 10 hours a series is not enough for the sheer amount of depth that is in this story, even by editing the plot strongly. Liked the episode and the second half of the season in general but they struggled to keep plotlines moving throughout i felt.

I got that impression this season more than the previous ones. Many of the scenes and the length of them gave me the impression that we were just quickly checking in with a character and getting the bullet points, rather than spending enough time with them to feel properly invested in their story.

spiralism wrote: »

Dorne a whole lot of nothing happened except they killed Myrcella off making the whole quest a shaggy dog story. It was like the TV equivalent of Brienne's storyline in AFFC. Trystane Martell left there on the boat so the Sand Snakes just sent the heir of Dorne off to be murdered immediately after by Jaime and ****ed into the sea.

Dorne is just grating on me the more I think about it. I initially thought that I didn't mind the scenes in the finale, but my judgement was clouded at the time by being caught up in Jamie's happy moment with Mycella, before ya know, she bled to death through her nose. But now, on reflection, it was all terrible.

When Jamie, Bronn, Mycella and Trystane took off in the little boat for Westeros, it didn't look very big or to have many private chambers onboard. It looked to be the kind of vessel where if a crew member came into distress while on board, everyone else would know. Why didn't Bronn and Trystane storm the open cabin when they heard Jaime shouting Mycella's name? They would have literally been sitting/standing the far side of the curtain. The only reason I can think of, is because it suited the scene for Jaime to be alone and have Mycella die in his arms for the dramatic effect. I'm sorry, but it's very obvious things like this which bring the show down for me.

Then, why didn't the boat turn around and go back for the harbour to try and seek help for Mycella or at least say "Ok, which one of you cheeky scallywags poisoned my daug...niece?" (Cause that's the shít that dialogue turns into in Dorne). No, sure we'll just keep heading on this way, sure we might catch a good breeze.

Jaime: Mycella! MYCELLA!!!
Bronn (enters): Ah for fúck sake!
Trystane: Mycella, my princess!...Captain, turn the boat around and sail 500 metres back to the harbour, there might be still hope.
Jaime: Are you out of your mind? Your uncle will have us slaughtered before we make it off the boat.
Trystane: My Uncle? Have you been asleep this entire time? My uncle had no part in this. He is a good man, that has been the one decent part of this whole thing. I am the heir to Dorne and their strongest link to the Iron Throne, well until now, do you think my Uncle is going to risk you slitting my throat and throwing me overboard?
Jaime: That's actually a good idea, Bronn, give me a blade...
Bronn: Wait Jaime, Aladdin's right, the guy in the chair was actually a sound c**t, but those chicks seemed a bit unstable, even surreal. I have been reacting to this all season of our time here.
Trystane: Yes, I have no doubt that this was the work of Ellaria. That parting with Mycella, she didn't even fúcking kiss Oberyn like that!
Bronn: C'mon Jaime, even if Mycella is brown bread, we can get this shíte cleared up in about 5 minutes and not drag it on the next season few months.
Jaime: Ok, back to the Harbour we go, call me when we are there.
Bronn: We are literally 2 minutes from the harbour.

Meanwhile back at shore, Ellaria starts dripping blood from the nose, the poison taking effect, as her and her Sand Snakes smugly watch the boat drift for the horizon. Ellaria takes the antidote and wipes her lips, but then the boat turns 180 degrees and heads back to Sunspear. The mouths of Ellaria and her Sand Snakes drop...

Ellaria: You know, I hadn't thought about the likely possibility of them just turning around...
Tyene: We'll be fine, we did what must be done, justice is served for Oberyn.
Ellaria: Wait, what have I done? How did I get here? The last I remember is watching Oberyn perish in King's Landing. I had show viewers crowds of onlookers gutted for me and really empathising with my character loss. Oh Oberyn, my love, you were taken from me but you did volunteer for trial by combat against the Mountain, and only fell because of your own hubris. I am lost, heart-broken, but must go on. So, Sand Snakes, what did I miss during my blackout?
Tyene: Well, you see those drips of blood on the ground at your feet, and that little boat docking at the harbour? Well the drips of blood are the result of you temporarily poisoning yourself in order to contaminate and murder someone on that boat. You were given a severe warning not to murder this person and told to just fúck off. The boat has obviously just turned around to try to save this person.
Ellaria: Well it must have been justified. Who is this man I poisoned? Why have I poisoned him? Who severely warned me not to and why?
Obara: Many moons ago, as the the dawn sky radiated a crimson red, like the blood of...
Ellaria: Quiet you, I'd like to know before Christmas...
Tyene: You didn't poison a man, you poisoned Princess Mycella. You poisoned her to avenge Oberyn. Doran warned you not to do this because, well, it was insane. That docking boat contains no doubt the fresh corpse of Mycella, along with our recently widowed Trystane, Mycella's father - The Kingslayer Jaime Lannister, and his charming but deadly sellsword Bronn; who may or may not be actually just coming back for the bad pussy now that I think about it...
Ellaria: Huh?
Tyene: Never mind. You killed a little girl.
Ellaria: This is a wind-up, yis cheeky brats, we don't murder children in Dorne.

*Boat docks, Ellaria sees a distraught Jaime Lannister carrying the bloodied remains of his only daughter. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes flee, never to be seen or heard from again, or are all taken out in one swing from Areo Hotah and his axe - which as it turns out was only there for decorative purposes.*

So yeah, Dorne was just a big pile of WTF and pointlessness for me, apart from Prince Doran and Bronn's reactions. Only thing is, Bronn's reactions, although priceless, were a little too close to the viewers' reactions, and their ultimate comedic effect on the viewer are in no way complimentary to the show or its intentions. Bronn and his "Ah for fúck sake" at the start of the Water Garden 'fight' earlier this season was priceless, but mostly for the wrong reason. You can hear the actor Jerome Flynn expressing his bemusement with what's happening just as much as you can hear Bronn expressing frustration with having to fight once more.

Likewise in the finale, when Tyene whispered that line in Bronn's ear. There was a look of confusion on Bronn's face rather than sexual curiosity. I can just as easily see the actor having an existential crisis in that moment going by his facial reactions; "Ok, I know we've rehearsed this a few times and everyone else seems happy with it. I know the guys writing this are quite reputable and are getting paid millions to do so. But wtf is wrong with me? I just don't get it! Is there a connection to be made between 'Bad pussy' and a misbehaved cat? I feel like Kanye West in that fishstix episode of South Park. I just don't get it, but everyone else seems happy. Just ask them about it! No, tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open my mouth and remove all doubt. Sod it, I'm just getting old I guess. Oh to just flash back in time to the day me and Robson dropped 'What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted?' and live the last 20 years again. Maybe there was something I could have done differently, something that would make me understand what actually is going on here at the moment"

Well no, it isn't one bit your fault Jerome Flynn. "You want a good girl, but you need the bad pussy" is the worst line written in this show in 5 years, and as another poster sorta said either here or elsewhere, it was the shít cherry on top of the shít cake which was Dorne this season.

spiralism wrote: »

Some plots just drifted in and out, you'd see an episode being Kings Landing centric then would hardly see any of the capital for a couple of episodes, then likewise with Winterfell where you'd have an episode or two where it featured briefly, and another couple of episodes where very little of Arya is seen and so on. 5 mins attention to plot here and there made for frustrating plot development, to the point where at the end of the season there's nothing from the Tyrells or Littlefinger since episode 8.

The structure of the episodes and the season overall was noticeably off. No denying that the producers have a tough job in adapting a massive story with numerous characters spread through-out a fictional world into 10 hours of television, but the structuring requires some refinement going forward. You offered the perfect example of interesting, main(ish) characters like Littlefinger and the Tyrells getting no screen-time in the climatic episodes of the season. Like what even happened to Maergery? Where is Lady Olenna while Maergery is wherever she is? Where is L.F. playing his waiting game and what is he doing while Stannis Baratheon fails at weakening the Boltons? Like L.F. had been banking on him doing.

If they're going to close some stories and characters off by episode 8, and of course they have to considering the limited screen-time available, I'd agrue that Dorne should have been wrapped up by episode 8 in place of another story-line, or even expanding on some of the other scenes and make them not feel like a brief check-in with the characters.

spiralism wrote: »

Even 13 episodes a season would have given them a lot more breathing room in all honesty. It's an extremely complex story to say the very least and taking a massive edit hatchet to it has led to some stupid errors. They've stupidly scrimped on some small things that explain a lot, for example explaining that Cersei also armed the Faith to pay off a debt to the crown...

13 episodes would be so much better, but is apparently a non-runner budget-wise. I feel they could have used the 10 hours available more wisely this season. Like you said, there were a few small details which would have easily explained and/or added more gravity to events that unfolded.

There are so many "Why doesn't the Kingsguard just storm the Sept, save Cersei and slaughter these religious dudes?" type of comments floating around and they are justified. The Lannisters and their soldiers have been built-up as murderous, non shít-taking bastards for 4 seasons. I know they lost Tywin and a lot of their power with him, but still the Faith Militant didn't seem powerful enough to honestly make it believable. Also, things like an actor appearing for more or less every episode early in the season, and then just disappearing "because distraught", as was the case with Tommen, is another negative against the structuring of the season. A late season glimpse of characters like he, Maergery and Loras (even in montage) would have maybe served to bring it all back around, but once again it's a case of the show just forgetting about characters it previously used to get viewers intrigued. Extreme cases of this are Thoros of Myr, Beric Dundarrion, Balon and Yara Greyjoy, the Direwolves.

spiralism wrote: »

...Jon Snow also allowed the wildlings through so able bodied fighters could man the seriously undermanned nights watch and re-open the closed forts. Literally explaining those would have taken two minutes each time. The latter especially is really important as book Jon retained the support of many, he has the wildling recruits on side as well as those who had always backed him. The show essentially cast it as the entire watch mutinying, were Melisandre to bring him back as speculated, it gives the distinct impression that he'd be just murdered again and they'd kill her along with him to make sure of it.

Although I was moved by the 'For The Watch' scene while watching, when you think about it further it's a bit "Huh? Apart from Olly scowling, that sorta came out of nowhere, bit harsh lads, no?" Earlier in the episode when Jon and Sam were bro-ing, Jon conveniently reminded us Sam that he was "the most hated man in the Night's Watch", and that was it in terms of build-up for the episode. We went from over half of the N.W. voting for Jon as L.C. earlier in the season, to them outright gang-murdering him by the end. I don't think that as viewers we were given enough to feel the actions of the mutineers were understandable, and in reflection it takes away from the gravity of the event. With all of the time that was spent at Castle Black this season, they could have built that up more I feel. A bit of 'Show, don't tell' rather than just give us lines like "You're running out of friends Snow" and Olly alone getting the rest of the lines which solely contribute to the build-up. Olly, who has only been there a wet week and primarily wants to avenge his parents. What about the rest of the N.W. and those who actually saw 10,000 of the dead rise a few days prior? It was all just a bit "For The Watch...because the book says so" rather than a thought-out decision by some pissed off Brothers because they genuinely felt their Order was being dragged into the ground.

Anyway, once again I write way too many words. Looking forward to all of this dying down soon and being able to make more productive use of my free-time

alwald

I came across this theory in youtube, it is a strange theory I have to admit, what are your thoughts about it?

Savage Tyrant

alwald wrote: »

I came across this theory in youtube, it is a strange theory I have to admit, what are your thoughts about it?

No. Just no. No no no no no.

Washington Irving

alwald wrote: »

I came across this theory in youtube, it is a strange theory I have to admit, what are your thoughts about it?

Ajor Ahai is a fairly well established theory.

Don't really buy it myself, but it has its merits. Think in that particular show-centric vid he places too much onus on and is way too specific about the red comet, while still allowing extreme vagueness in regards to the salt and smoke.

Definitely don't agree with the 'it has to be either Dany, Jon or Jorah' line in the vid.

alwald

Washington Irving wrote: »

Ajor Ahai is a fairly well established theory.

Don't really buy it myself, but it has its merits. Think in that particular show-centric vid he places too much onus on and is way too specific about the red comet, while still allowing extreme vagueness in regards to the salt and smoke.

Definitely don't agree with the 'it has to be either Dany, Jon or Jorah' line in the vid.

Here is another similar theory in reddit with more details about salt and smoke...I have to say that this theory didn't seem right at the beginning but it's more complex than Jon snow/Danny's theories hence why I love it .

Lemming

just steamed through the entire season this week, and tbh ... I am not impressed. Sure there are some bits that are handled really well, but if like me you are left feeling that the wheels have started to come off the show, it's down to the fact that it's becoming horribly disjointed and diverging to silly degrees from the books, to the point of "why the f*ck bother?" moments of thinking. Was season 5 trying to be a feast for crows? or a dance with dragons? because both are massive books that could contain several seasons in their own right. The books work, and work well because they are what they are, and whilst what is in a book does not necessarily translate well to screen and some license is required to keep an audience interested, it feels like the show has turned into some sort of whimsical "what shall we do this week" affair.

I wasn't bothered to start watching the season when it premiered (or even leaked), and I'm even less bothered with season six now.

edit:

As I think back on it, the one bit of the entire show that I have truly felt uncomfortable watching (or listening to as the case may be here) was Shireen's burning. It's not in the books, not even hinted as a possibility by a long shot, so what was the f*cking point of it in the episode other than for sheer gratutiuous violence? It was absolutely appalling to listen to and served absolutely no purpose from any angle in showing how desperate Stannis was; that much was already established.

Hyzepher

The killing of Shireen had the effect of thawing out the snow etc. The viewer may have thought that this was a benefit to Stannis - but no - It's a benefit to Littlefinger and his army. They can now approach Winterfell without too much hindrance from the weather.

her death will advance the plot but not in the way Stannis expected

Thargor

I dont know if storming a serious fortress like Winterfell will be Littlefingers style but its hard to know whit the show writers, do we have any evidence thats his plan?

podgemonster

Hyzepher wrote: »

The killing of Shireen had the effect of thawing out the snow etc. The viewer may have thought that this was a benefit to Stannis - but no - It's a benefit to Littlefinger and his army. They can now approach Winterfell without too much hindrance from the weather.

her death will advance the plot but not in the way Stannis expected

Not LF, it helps the Wildlings to head south led by The Prince that was promised.

Last time we saw Littlefinger he was pushing Cersei to march North, I don't think Bolton is weakened enough after crushing Stannis to be taken by the Vale. But a Lannister, Tyrell and Frey host could do considerable damage to Bolton and themselves. Littlefinger will never forget the lesson he learned from Brandon Stark, he's not a fighter. He prefers to "fúck" is opponents. He'll happily stir-up trouble from the Vale or Kings Landing to cause Chaos and from that Chaos he will climb, without ever swinging a sword.

Daith

Hyzepher wrote: »

her death will advance the plot but not in the way Stannis expected

Hasn't that been the issue with Stannis all through the books and the use of magic?

Renly's death helps Stannis initially but ultimately leads to a Lannister/Tyrell alliance and Stannis no further to the throne

If Mel did help with other deaths
Robb: Leads to the Lannisters securing the throne and the Boltons rise in power
Joffrey: Nothing changes for Stannis. Lannisters still in control and Tyrells happier with Tommen.
Balon: Doesn't really help Stannis either but allows Euron to rise.

All that happens to Stannis is that he keeps fighting and fighting and losing more and more people.

Mr Freeze

Daith wrote: »

If Mel did help with other deaths
Robb: Leads to the Lannisters securing the throne and the Boltons rise in power
Joffrey: Nothing changes for Stannis. Lannisters still in control and Tyrells happier with Tommen.
Balon: Doesn't really help Stannis either but allows Euron to rise.

Ya I think Mel just saw these events happening in the flames. And then used Kings Blood / Slugs to make it look like she caused their deaths, thus getting Stannis to believe in her a lot more if not completely.

I honestly don't know what to make of Melisandre, sometimes I think she is a complete fraud using potions and powders & stuff to make herself appear magical, but then remember well she did create 2 shadow assassins in the books and can see stuff in the flames even if she seems completely unable to interrupt them correctly sometimes.

Daith

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Ya I think Mel just saw these events happening in the flames. And then used Kings Blood / Slugs to make it look like she caused their deaths, thus getting Stannis to believe in her a lot more if not completely.

I honestly don't know what to make of Melisandre, sometimes I think she is a complete fraud using potions and powders & stuff to make herself appear magical, but then remember well she did create 2 shadow assassins in the books and can see stuff in the flames even if she seems completely unable to interrupt them correctly sometimes.

Yeah I think it's clear that she has power but is let down by the way she interprets her flame visions.

I suppose it's possible that Stannis was needed at the Wall for whatever to happen to Jon to actually work.

LFC CONNAUGHTON

Not sure if this is really the right place to ask but where is the cheapest place to buy the books ATM?

Witcher

LFC CONNAUGHTON wrote: »

Not sure if this is really the right place to ask but where is the cheapest place to buy the books ATM?

Probably Amazon, you sometimes see the whole set for about €30 or so.

Mormegil

Strider wrote: »

Probably Amazon, you sometimes see the whole set for about €30 or so.

Yep, £32.50 at the moment for the 7 paperback volumes or £20 for the Kindle version.