Tesla Powerwall - is this the answer we have been waiting for?

JonathonS

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

$3,500 for the 10kWh version. Will the availability of this product result in a meteoric growth in domestic PV installations?

We've had batteries and cheaper ones too the last 150 years. Those are installer costs not consumer and it doesn't include any of the electronics to run it either.

quentingargan

If (and that is a big if) you could use all 10kwHrs every day for the ten year battery life, then the cost of cycling the batteries would be 9.6c per KwHr (US). That is a lower per-cycle cost than other battery systems, provided the battery is capable of cycling 3650 times. In its favour, the round trip efficiency quoted is higher than lead acid.

It is a high voltage battery so none of the existing inverters on the domestic market will work with it. We will have to see what prices of inverters works out to be, but because of the high voltage, they should be more efficient than the kit we have at present.

It think the brand is going to give the profile of self-consumption quite a boost.

I make it $0.19 per kWh to 80% capacity at 3000 cycles 60% discharge. Based on the Panasonic 18650 cells they've been using at installer prices.

They haven't published any real data themselves.

If I had the dosh I'd go OPzS.

quentingargan

quentingargan wrote: »

In its favour, the round trip efficiency quoted is higher than lead acid.

That depends on your discharge rate. But a firm yes in most cases. Volatile tech. and proprietary.

JonathonS

Thank you for those replies. I have looked at solar a couple of times, but decided to wait until a viable storage option became available. From what you are saying I should not be too optimistic about the Tesla product.

I agree that the general hype about the Tesla brand will help raise the profile of renewables, which is good. Maybe the fact that they have apparently taken $750m in advance orders might spur others to launch?

Don't believe the hype go with price per kWh. Used forklift cells will do you a better deal, penny to a pound.

I'm not taking Tesla seriously until they publish some proper data.

How many of those advance orders are from Solar City?

JonathonS

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

How many of those advance orders are from Solar City?

I'm not working for Tesla - or Solar City. Thanks for your input.

Just finished wiring my freecycled 12.5kWh Lead Acid, AGM set for float service.

Balanced loading 12V parallel.

I'll be rewiring this 48V later when I find more PV. In the meantime all my swanky chargers are 12V.

This is what a real data sheet looks like.

4 years old and those Voc readings are the holding voltage since decommissioning (12.79v is the lowest). :cool:

rolion

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I make it $0.19 per kWh to 80% capacity at 3000 cycles 60% discharge. Based on the Panasonic 18650 cells they've been using at installer prices.

They haven't published any real data themselves.

If I had the dosh I'd go OPzS.

Hi
Found the OPZS battery's here.
Are the same ones that you're talking about ?
Thanks


http://www.shop.solar-wind.co.uk/acatalog/exide_classic_battery_deep_cycle.html

10 Kwh wouldn't be any use to me, I'd need 2 !

My daily average consumption before getting the Nissan Leaf was about 6.5 kwh and now it's 15.5 Kwh.

Based on that my yearly requirement will have one up to around 5,500 Kwh, but not quiet because of holidays and the likes but I Get a lot of free leccy from the fast chargers about 6 Kwh worth daily but roughly I would use about 25-30 Kwh daily without the free fast charging in total including the house.

It's hard to calculate the cost of this because I use the night meter and I have to charge the car sometimes during the day when I'm on Night shift but at full 19C/kwh it would cost me 1000 A year if all that leccy was at day rate, so night rate will knock a few hundred off that.

Say 800 A year for leccy and Car, that's not bad to run the house and drive to work, petrol alone would have set me back at least 2,000-2,500.

Even if it cost me the 1,000 A year it would take many years to pay back Tesla batteries and solar PV installation which in Ireland costs a lot , maybe the cost has dropped ?

Wind turbines are disgracefully expensive to get installed and uneconomical and likely always will be. You're talking about 15,000 For a 3kw turbine.

My partners parents in Germany have 14 kwp Solar on the roof and on a Sunny Summer day can generate 70-80 Kwh. But they get a good feed-in-tariff and all have 3 phase in Germany ! They have storage heating and whatever they export in Summer they buy back at night in winter.

If Ireland had a feed-in-tariff we could use the ESB network and we wouldn't need batteries, the Government don't give grants for installation either making the whole thing uneconomical in Ireland. We're unlikely to have a feed-in-tariff for many years.

The thing with going off grid and solar, you need a mega storage capacity to keep you going through winter. 10 Kwh isn;t going to cut it by a long shot, and in Ireland you'll have to greatly over size your solar array to compensate for the reduced direct sunlight and short day light hours, though in Summer we have long daylight hours with greater need for more storage.

Electric vehicles can be used for storage for the grid.

With the Tesla Power wall you can install a night meter, charge up at night and sell suing the day you won;t have to buy solar or wind turbine. But an Electric vehicle has much more practical uses.

I really wish we'd have a feed-in-tariff in Ireland and a smart grid and grants towards solar PV and wind turbines, we could generate a lot of jobs. it could help us save the Billions we throw away on foreign energy energy.

I'm a believer in using less energy and more insulation. Ev means I don't have to spend 2500 on petrol a year, that 1,900 Euro saving (after leccy costs) is a saving I can directly put towards repaying the car not including the maintenance !

rolion

What if based on a proper PV panel system of let's say 3kw,we can use three storage systems:
-direct feed in to homes circuits except kitchen with cooker,wash machine,iron and maybe hoover.That implies learning and adapt the internal electrical circuits for the supply and load
-battery storage with a minimum capacity of let's say 300-400ah.With 6 x 2V at the Ah should be capable of powering the house while been able to charge quick enough and avoid deep discharges.
-heating a 1.5kw / 3kw heating element in a 300l hot water cylinder.Water can be used in heating of radiators and / or underfloor heating.With a cylinder "losing" thermal capacity in let's say 8 hours you can "jump" to next sunny day with overnight supply.If not,boosted a little with supply from battery as night time is less usage.

So,with a proper design online/offline/by-pass continous monitoring and automation it can be used to work efficient and to return the investment sooner.
But,I guess are others like me,the solar systems (solar tubes or PVs) are there to satisfy my "anger" at the sight of gas and electricity bills.My desired target is to get both at less than a hundred euro per issued bill.At the moment,before fully insulating the house internal and external came at average 450 per bill.

Good luck...

rolion

rolion wrote: »

What if based on a proper PV panel system of let's say 3kw,we can use three storage systems:
-direct feed in to homes circuits except kitchen with cooker,wash machine,iron and maybe hoover.That implies learning and adapt the internal electrical circuits for the supply and load
-battery storage with a minimum capacity of let's say 300-400ah.With 6 x 2V at the Ah should be capable of powering the house while been able to charge quick enough and avoid deep discharges.
-heating a 1.5kw / 3kw heating element in a 300l hot water cylinder.Water can be used in heating of radiators and / or underfloor heating.With a cylinder "losing" thermal capacity in let's say 8 hours you can "jump" to next sunny day with overnight supply.If not,boosted a little with supply from battery as night time is less usage.

So,with a proper design online/offline/by-pass continous monitoring and automation it can be used to work efficient and to return the investment sooner.
But,I guess are others like me,the solar systems (solar tubes or PVs) are there to satisfy my "anger" at the sight of gas and electricity bills.My desired target is to get both at less than a hundred euro per issued bill.At the moment,before fully insulating the house internal and external came at average 450 per bill.

Good luck...

You'll want a pretty large array for winter, massive !

My OH Parents in Germany have a 14 kwp array on the roof and while up to 70-80 kwh can be generated a day in bright sunlight on a dark cloudy day in Summer it can generate as little as 1000 watts continuous,

So 1 Kw over what, 7 hrs in winter sunlight = 7 Kwh, that doesn't account for the brigher spells so you might generate 10 kwh.

Solar PV isn't there yet as far as storing the energy in batteries is concerned, Grid-tie systems are best, storing huge amounts of energy in batteries isn't possible to tie you over winter.

And the Electric grid in Ireland isn't nearly as good as Germany's, German homes all have 3 phase which naturally allows you the option of large PV arrays or wind to the grid, in Ireland the max allowed to the grid is about 5.5 Kw ! useless !

rolion

rolion wrote: »

Hi
Found the OPZS battery's here.
Are the same ones that you're talking about ?

They're a type of tubular plate design of lead acid. Several companies make them. Exide make decent batteries but they're very Spartan on the tech. details on a lot of their products.

“OPzS” is the German abbreviation of “Ortsfest Panzerplatten Standard”

recedite

Wind farmers do a deal with Tesla.
Is this likely to be the same battery technology, but scaled up?

Oh probably...



No idea why they're pictured with a 22kW plug and socket that's probably just attached to the site gene. Looks like a dodgey 32A to 2 x 16A split...tsk, tsk should have a distro for that lads!

Most likely the same tech yes.

Who's going to pay for this ? We already pay huge subsidies to wind energy investors, and shamefully get nothing in return.

I got a better idea, if a lot more people convert to electric cars then these can be the energy storage devices these companies desire.

Most people don't drive within the range of even the current electric cars so why not use some of that energy at peak times ?

Will the grid pay you for the charge cycles taken from your "idle" battery. They have a finite lifespan.

Sir Liamalot

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Will the grid pay you for the charge cycles taken from your "idle" battery. They have a finite lifespan.

That's the idea, but it will require massive upgrades to the electric grid.

In fact you could charge at night and use the cheap electricity during the day to power your house.

This is what the ESB are looking into. But it's a long way away but IMO a really good idea and it would save having to invest in huge storage systems.

The ESB are looking into 2nd hand ev batteries for storage but this will be many years before used batteries become available and the current gen leaf since late 2013 battery is lasting very well, should easily have a 10-15 year life to 70% possibly more. But it's lasting very well, my 2015 leaf with 18,300 Kms has still got 100% capacity!

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

In fact you could charge at night and use the cheap electricity during the day to power your house.

I'm building such a system. Can't say it makes any financial sense tbh.

When I look at the round trip efficiency I'll be saving 50% price per kWh on import then losing 10% on the inverter, 15% on the battery charger and ~15% on battery charge inefficiency. All rated efficiencies not actual.

It'll be a year or two before I have real figures. I'm hanging 1.5kW PV to offset the losses.

Sir Liamalot

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I'm building such a system. Can't say it makes any financial sense tbh.

When I look at the round trip efficiency I'll be saving 50% price per kWh on import then losing 10% on the inverter, 15% on the battery charger and ~15% on battery charge inefficiency. All rated efficiencies not actual.

It'll be a year or two before I have real figures. I'm hanging 1.5kW PV to offset the losses.

Well this is where using EV batteries makes a lot of sense , people think they need 500 miles range but in reality they drive less than the max range of a Nissan Leaf daily so if you drive 40 miles a day max you'll have about 8-10 Kwh sitting in your leaf battery. Unfortunately I have an 84 mile daily commute so would have little energy to spare but it saves me a fortune over Petrol/Diesel/hybrid and I've driven 18,300 Kms since January and If that was all night rate would have cost me about 250 Euro's V 1,100 Euro's in Diesel @55 mpg and 1.18 per litre current rates. But I've charged a lot for free at the public charge points so it;s cost me a lot less.

So you could have a couple of options, you can charge at the cheap rate at night, go to work come home and do your cooking, washing and shower all with the spare Kwh left in your Leaf. Or you could export it. Yes it would mean more cycling of your battery however we're only slightly over 2 years away from 150-200+ mile affordable electric cars and these batteries will be cycled far, far less than a leaf battery so will have the ability to store and export large amounts of Kwh.

The Tesla Model S battery at now 90 Kwh is so big that even with a 30% loss in capacity should still see 180 miles range. It's a huge amount of energy most Irish people would use extremely rarely .

In Japan after the earthquake Nissan introduced such a system but I don't know whether you can export the energy to the grid or whether it's intelligent enough to not pull the energy from the grid and only from the Leaf. I don't know the cost of the system.

But if you already have an EV you already have a storage battery. I will see if I can find more details on the System Nissan sell for the Leaf in Japan.

recedite

Deleted User wrote: »

my 2015 leaf with 18,300 Kms has still got 100% capacity!

Interesting, but I presume that is what is says on the dashboard display. Is that accurate? Lets say your battery was half knackered after a few years, and you fully charged it, would the display read "100%" for charge even though it wasn't the same capacity as a new battery?

recedite

recedite wrote: »

Is that accurate?

quentingargan

recedite wrote: »

Interesting, but I presume that is what is says on the dashboard display. Is that accurate? Lets say your battery was half knackered after a few years, and you fully charged it, would the display read "100%" for charge even though it wasn't the same capacity as a new battery?

Don't know about the Leaf, but my C-zero shows range based on recent driving and battery state. So if I give it welly and only get 40km before the battery is on half-charge, after the next charge it tells me I have 80km to go.

recedite

recedite wrote: »

Interesting, but I presume that is what is says on the dashboard display. Is that accurate? Lets say your battery was half knackered after a few years, and you fully charged it, would the display read "100%" for charge even though it wasn't the same capacity as a new battery?

There are two battery meters one ont he very right is for capacity and one for % the one for % is your actual charge in the battery the one on the right has 12 bars and each one lost is capacity lost. And you are correct, as the battery ages a full charge will always show 100% because that means 100% charge of what's available in the battery based on how worn , or not, it is.

Yes it's pretty accurate because I use a diagnostic tool connected to the OBD II port which is more accurate than the leaf display. The leaf will loose one capacity bar after around 12% has been lost. The Leaf Spy application will tell it to the exact %.

One U.K Taxi has reached over 102,000 miles and lost around 10% but the battery has been fast charge something ridiculously, 1,700 fast charges and about 5,500 Normal charges and I wonder if it wasn't fast charged so much would it have lost less than 10% ? but either way it's extremely good for a battery that's cycled so much.

Capacity varies due to usage sometimes it reports 95% and sometimes 100%. But there is very strong evidence from the U.S to the U.K now that the battery from late 2013 on has be altered for much better durability.

The battery in late 2015 for 2016 will have an extra 6 Kwh, not sure whether this is usable but my guess it will be.

quentingargan

quentingargan wrote: »

Don't know about the Leaf, but my C-zero shows range based on recent driving and battery state. So if I give it welly and only get 40km before the battery is on half-charge, after the next charge it tells me I have 80km to go.

The range indicator in the late 2013+ leaf is much more accurate and has a % remaining rather than the guessed range remaining which is far more useful.

It will base range predictions on previous and current driving but it will still be pretty accurate unless you suddenly put the boot down.

Travelling the Wicklow mountains have actually little impact on range, what you loose going up you gain coming down and also to slow you down you get more energy going back into the battery. But once I come back down the range indicator will have adjusted and I know roughly now that xx % will get me xx Kms. With the Leaf I stick it in B mode which tells the ECU to apply more regen braking force so you don't have to keep your foot on the brake so I then use the accelerator to adjust the regen strength, press the accelerator and I get less regen and I speed up, lift off and I get stronger regen, I slow down etc.

Today I travelled into Baltinglass (had about 12 Kms driven by then) to Hollywood Cross, turned right all the way up Tourlough Hill , down into laragh and into Glendalough Park, back into Laragh, right for Rathdrum and right for Glenmalure, then all the way up Mullacor I think it's called and back down to Glenmalure Lodge, and straight at that cross and all the way up Drungoff into Aghavannagh back into Baltinglass and home 12 Kms from there all 133 Kms with 20% in the battery to spare.

So after all that, Hills don't really have a big impact on range but I wasn't going particularly fast as you can imaging on these roads and you can really use gravity coming down, a big motorway climb may have a greater impact because you'll have less change to regen especially because of the high speeds.

But anyway really fantastic car , will never go back now to petrol or diesel.

murphaph

I'd love to go electric too but we both work 9 to 5 jobs so we'd only be able to charge off the PV at weekends. I wouldn't think twice about it if I was a shift worker doing nights though...

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

I'd love to go electric too but we both work 9 to 5 jobs so we'd only be able to charge off the PV at weekends. I wouldn't think twice about it if I was a shift worker doing nights though...

Why would you wait if you would like an EV ? Depending on how much you drive the Leaf would probably save you a lot more money than the solar array.

How large is your solar array ?

quentingargan

murphaph wrote: »

I'd love to go electric too but we both work 9 to 5 jobs so we'd only be able to charge off the PV at weekends. I wouldn't think twice about it if I was a shift worker doing nights though...

I have a PV array and an electric car, but I wouldn't dream of charging my car during the daytime. It is far better from an environmental point of view to export your solar PV to the grid (I get paid 9c for it) and buy back electricity at night to charge the car (I have a day/night meter so this is also very slightly cheaper).

One of the benefits of electric cars is that they can use up surplus electricity on the grid at night. Often a high percentage of power on the grid at night is coming from wind.

recedite

Deleted User wrote: »

Today I travelled into Baltinglass (had about 12 Kms driven by then) to Hollywood Cross, turned right all the way up Tourlough Hill , down into laragh and into Glendalough Park, back into Laragh, right for Rathdrum and right for Glenmalure, then all the way up Mullacor I think it's called and back down to Glenmalure Lodge, and straight at that cross and all the way up Drungoff into Aghavannagh back into Baltinglass and home 12 Kms from there all 133 Kms with 20% in the battery to spare.

That was pretty severe alright, the "Mullacor" climb you mention is known as the "Shay Eliott" it is used a lot by cyclists for races and training being the nearest thing to an alpine stage in the Tour de France, and the next one at Drumgoff to Aughavannagh is just as bad. If you stop at the bottom there in the summer, there is usually a permanent smell of burning car brake linings in the air. For a basic petrol car without regen braking, the trip was probably equivalent to 2-3 times the 133km in energy consumption.
BTW, did you see the HOLLYWOOD sign they have put up on the hill down there in Hollywood it would have been on your left going down the hill into the town but you'd probably only see it going back the other way.

Can't afford a new car at the moment, but from what you're saying the Leaf might still be a good buy as a used car, and you reckon the second dial on the dash would give a reasonably good indication of the usable battery capacity still left? Not that anyone who actually has one is selling it.

quentingargan

quentingargan wrote: »

I have a PV array and an electric car, but I wouldn't dream of charging my car during the daytime. It is far better from an environmental point of view to export your solar PV to the grid (I get paid 9c for it) and buy back electricity at night to charge the car (I have a day/night meter so this is also very slightly cheaper).

Unfortunately the Feed-In-Tariff is being scrapped next year ? I think this is outrageous for people who have invested in Solar PV. So in your case and those in a similar situation I suppose the Powerwall would be good thing but what would it cost including installation ?

The EV would be the best thing because you already have it but you're probably not there during the day.

What Kwp have you installed ?

quentingargan wrote: »

One of the benefits of electric cars is that they can use up surplus electricity on the grid at night. Often a high percentage of power on the grid at night is coming from wind.

Yeah it would be great if a lot more people were interested in electric cars but most people don't see the savings because they dump up to 80 A week maybe more into the tank and forget it where if they got a bill every month it would shock them a lot more, a lot of people don't like bills because their spending is written down in front of them but when they throw up to 80 Euro's in cash away into the fuel tank it's forgotten about and people are quiet willing to do it which is even more insane.

So far this year 116,333 cars were sold and if they were all electric charging at let's say 6.6 Kw that's 767 MW of power by my calculations and this is a lot of extra power on the grid but can be done.

Our current demand is 4,500 MW and at midnight it was around 3,000 MW. So we would have the capacity if all our cars changed to EV if all of them sold so far were EV however it's not as simple as this because most Nissan Leaf's for instance are sold with the basic 3.3 Kw charger so if all electrics were sold with this 3.3 Kw charger you could charge twice the amount with the same capacity and not all cars will charge for a full 8 hours for a complete charge. And if they were all 6.6 Kw they would charge in half the time freeing up capacity. The benefits of that 6.6 Kw AC charger are tremendous , being able to charge twice as fast from a non fast charger just can't be underestimated.

If you were to change our entire transport to the grid then the amount of electricity required would be tremendous and why wind energy alone won't imo ever meed this demand. I think renewables will play a part but we need to think about Nuclear at this point, unless we get a large amount of turbines off shore I think we'd need turbines on every inch of the land.

We need to think about Solar PV because the last few weeks have seen little wind energy to the grid 5-10% with one or two days where this went to 35%. Solar will work in Ireland and afaik a lot cheaper than wind.

Check out this link, very interesting.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all

So far 380 Nissan Leaf's were sold compared to 179 last year so there's 4 months left.

30 renault Zoe's sold compared to 6 last year.

I haven't calculated any others but it's unfortunately still a drop in the ocean.

murphaph

quentingargan wrote: »

I have a PV array and an electric car, but I wouldn't dream of charging my car during the daytime. It is far better from an environmental point of view to export your solar PV to the grid (I get paid 9c for it) and buy back electricity at night to charge the car (I have a day/night meter so this is also very slightly cheaper).

One of the benefits of electric cars is that they can use up surplus electricity on the grid at night. Often a high percentage of power on the grid at night is coming from wind.

No general night rate available in our region in Germany, only a (slightly) cheaper rate for use exclusively by your heat pump. Current FIT here is 8.5c and falling a little each month. We need to consume as much of our self produced energy as possible, rather than exporting and buying back at almost 30c (electricity has increased in price by 50% since 2006 here)

We haven't built our PV array (or the house it will sit on) yet, but we plan to build a 10kWp poly one, facing SSW on a 45° pitched roof.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

No general night rate available in our region in Germany, only a (slightly) cheaper rate for use exclusively by your heat pump. Current FIT here is 8.5c and falling a little each month. We need to consume as much of our self produced energy as possible, rather than exporting and buying back at almost 30c (electricity has increased in price by 50% since 2006 here)

We haven't built our PV array (or the house it will sit on) yet, but we plan to build a 10kWp poly one, facing SSW on a 45° pitched roof.

In Baden Wuttemberg I think my Partner's Parents get something like 35 C/Kwh . Then they got a grant for installation, nothing like this exists here for solar pv or wind.

They have 14 Kwp and can generate over 70 Kwh on a good sunny day in Summer. They sell all this excess and buy it back for the storage heaters for winter. They also have a cheap night rate, when I say cheap it's probably what we pay during the day !

Electricity costs In Germany are expensive because of the subsidies to pay for the Feed-In-Tariff . I think it's highly unfair to expect the people who can't afford to install solar arrays to pay such high electricity costs.

murphaph

The system here sees a sliding scale of FIT until it will eventually be phased out as equipment becomes commodity level. Around 2011/2012 the balance tipped and anyone who installed since then will need to be consuming as much of the produced energy as possible, rather than selling it to the grid.

This means I want to completely cover my roof with PV and hope that battery tech moves on enough and comes down in price enough to make it viable for us to push our self produced rate up to 80% or so and stop feeding in to the grid. I personally think we'll be at that point within a couple of years, if not already, given how expensive electricity is here.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

The system here sees a sliding scale of FIT until it will eventually be phased out as equipment becomes commodity level. Around 2011/2012 the balance tipped and anyone who installed since then will need to be consuming as much of the produced energy as possible, rather than selling it to the grid.

This means I want to completely cover my roof with PV and hope that battery tech moves on enough and comes down in price enough to make it viable for us to push our self produced rate up to 80% or so and stop feeding in to the grid. I personally think we'll be at that point within a couple of years, if not already, given how expensive electricity is here.

The problem with solar PV is that in order to meet your winter demands you will need a huge battery system to store all this energy you generate in Summer. This is why the grid always makes sense because you don't have to buy a huge battery and the electric grid becomes your battery. It's just not practical to have such a large storage system.

I believe far greater savings can be got form driving an EV, provided you are intending to buy a new car. Compared to diesel @5.1 L/100 Kms or 55 mpg I would have spent over 18,300 Kms 1,100 Euro's V 250 on night rate electricity @ 8 C/Kwh. But since public charging is currently free It's cost me a lot less. All to do 18,300 Kms. Actually I made a mistake in that calculation, I didn't include charger inefficiency , the charger is about 90% efficient so it would have cost 275 Euro's to drive 18,300 Kms on night rate.

My Lease allows 25,000 Kms per year so after 25,000 Kms and if All that was done on night rate then at about 18 Kwh efficiency I will consume 4,500 Kwh of electricity +10% so about 396 Euro's. To put this into perspective, I was paying about 210-240 euro's a month in petrol in the 60 mpg (4.7 L/100 Kms) prius

I don't think it's a good idea to eliminate the feed-in-tariff altogether.

Battery storage is only good in my opinion, in countries near the equator that get almost identical daylight hours Summer and Winter where you can generate almost an identical amount of solar PV daily so you can considerably reduce your storage requirements. These countries also have a more predictable amount of direct sunlight and not like Ireland or Germany with unpredictable amounts of cloud.

If you already have a very large battery especially in the 150-200 mile range electrics due in 2 years then you'll have around 60-70 Kwh of storage which I believe is a waste because most people will only use a fraction of this energy but you can dump all your solar into this but if you generate up to 70 Kwh on a good summers day with 14 kwp then you get the idea of the scale of huge battery size you will need ?

You could install 5-6 Kwp but then you'd not generate much electricity in winter.

recedite

recedite wrote: »

That was pretty severe alright, the "Mullacor" climb you mention is known as the "Shay Eliott" it is used a lot by cyclists for races and training being the nearest thing to an alpine stage in the Tour de France, and the next one at Drumgoff to Aughavannagh is just as bad. If you stop at the bottom there in the summer, there is usually a permanent smell of burning car brake linings in the air. For a basic petrol car without regen braking, the trip was probably equivalent to 2-3 times the 133km in energy consumption.

Yeah it's quiet a steep long climb, I certainly wouldn't want to cycle it not even with my leccy bike !

The Leaf is up to about 80% efficient compared to about 20-35% for an ICE and you get all that regen on the long descent down.

I love the way the Leaf climbs those really steep hills. Come around a bend and floor it it accelerates up those steep hills really hard and effortlessly , an ICE you would hear the strain and the high revs going up but in the Leaf you hear a faint whirr, amazing !

recedite wrote: »

BTW, did you see the HOLLYWOOD sign they have put up on the hill down there in Hollywood it would have been on your left going down the hill into the town but you'd probably only see it going back the other way.

No I was going the opposite direction, I remember seeing it many years ago but thought they took it down ?

recedite wrote: »

Can't afford a new car at the moment, but from what you're saying the Leaf might still be a good buy as a used car, and you reckon the second dial on the dash would give a reasonably good indication of the usable battery capacity still left? Not that anyone who actually has one is selling it.

Yeah a 132+ with the better battery would be a cracking car, it's got the darker interior compared to the 2011-13.



The battery capacity bar would give you a good idea but the Leaf spy app would be more accurate , you need a bluetooth OBD II dongle V1.5 you can get them on adverts.ie or the one recommended from leaf spy.

The first capacity bar lost means about 12% capacity has been lost but you could buy the car and it could be just about to loose that first bar, the leaf spy app would give you a good indication to the actual capacity lost/remaining.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Turbo3.Leaf_Spy_Pro&hl=en

Conor20

Deleted User wrote: »

But anyway really fantastic car , will never go back now to petrol or diesel.

Couldn't agree more. Bought a Leaf in the UK last year and drove it back to Ireland. I'll never go back to an internal combustion engine. The savings in petrol alone have been huge. Then there's the convenience of it charging at home at night rather than ever having to go to a petrol station, the extra power of an electric drive train over an ICE, the on-board electronics, the lack of an engine meaning almost zero maintenance costs, etc.

I also plan on installing Solar PV + Battery array at home. A feed in tariff would be better all round - environmentally and financially - and I'll wait to see what the Government Micro-Generation whitepaper comes out with in early 2016, but regardless, I will go ahead with Solar PV + Battery array (Tesla Powerwall or similar) + an inverter to power the house from the electric car. In the long term, I can calculate exactly what Solar PV per kWh will cost for the next 15 years, where as I have no idea what electricity prices will do. If energy inflation runs at 5%, that would likely bring the kWh cost above Solar in 7 or 8 years. Something like this:

Electricity costs are due to fall something like 20% This year.

I would love to go solar PV but it's not financially viable in Ireland, especially if you got to install the powerwall.

The problem is that you'll struggle to fill a decent sized battery in winter and you'll have far too much excess in Summer. In Ireland the best thing to do is install a hybrid system of wind and solar PV, wind being the best thing for Ireland unless of course you are not in a suitable location such as close proximity to houses. A vertical axes might be good too but not as efficient and the greatest problem of all in Ireland is the cost of wind turbine installations are outrageously expensive.

The grid is the only real sensible way to send excess power in Ireland, battery storage for Solar PV is good in locations that have pretty much the same amount of day light hours Winter and Summer. Meaning you can size the battery perfectly where in Ireland and similar latitudes you'll have too much solar in Summer and not enough in Winter.

There's no way in hell I'd get 27 Kwh daily for the Leaf and house from solar PV (unless it was a huge array), I would struggle to meet the 6.6 Kwh consumption of the house with Solar in winter, but Summer would be no problem never mind the Leaf. The Idea being all that excess going to the grid in Summer I buy back in Winter, simple and very effective and a hell of a lot cheaper.

The current Irish Government won't do anything for Micro generation in Ireland. They cancelled the Metro underground for heavens sake, they're useless Muppets !

hexosan

Deleted User wrote: »

Electricity costs are due to fall something like 20% This year.

I would love to go solar PV but it's not financially viable in Ireland, especially if you got to install the powerwall.

The problem is that you'll struggle to fill a decent sized battery in winter and you'll have far too much excess in Summer. In Ireland the best thing to do is install a hybrid system of wind and solar PV, wind being the best thing for Ireland unless of course you are not in a suitable location such as close proximity to houses. A vertical axes might be good too but not as efficient and the greatest problem of all in Ireland is the cost of wind turbine installations are outrageously expensive.

The grid is the only real sensible way to send excess power in Ireland, battery storage for Solar PV is good in locations that have pretty much the same amount of day light hours Winter and Summer. Meaning you can size the battery perfectly where in Ireland and similar latitudes you'll have too much solar in Summer and not enough in Winter.

There's no way in hell I'd get 27 Kwh daily for the Leaf and house from solar PV (unless it was a huge array), I would struggle to meet the 6.6 Kwh consumption of the house with Solar in winter, but Summer would be no problem never mind the Leaf. The Idea being all that excess going to the grid in Summer I buy back in Winter, simple and very effective and a hell of a lot cheaper.

The current Irish Government won't do anything for Micro generation in Ireland. They cancelled the Metro underground for heavens sake, they're useless Muppets !

What size array do you reckon you'd need mad lad

10 kW should cover 8 months a year I reckon.

Sir Liamalot

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

10 kW should cover 8 months a year I reckon.

You're pretty close indeed, I calculated that I'd need about 7-9 Kwp for the whole year because of the amount you can generate and send to the grid in Summer, you can buy back in winter.

My Partners parents in Germany with 14 Kwp can generate just over 70 Kwh Per day on a good sunny Summers day winter I'm not so sure but it's a lot less and if (when) they get now on the panels then it's 0. So think about a 70 Kwh battery for storage daily ? 70 Kwh per day for 7 days that's 490 Kwh (- your house consumption )that's one mother of a battery, so I think the message is becoming clearer now why batter storage for micro generation won't work ? and only cost you a lot even on a smaller scale.

I found an on line solar calculator which based the average Kwh per hr to expect to generate on average in Ireland , has anyone got a link ? I would have to recalculate based on my actual experience with the leaf.

To Run the Leaf and house per year would be one mother of a big battery, it's just not practical.

In countries that have direct sunlight and pretty good sunlight hours winter and summer then they can size a battery pretty well compared to a country like us that lots of day light hours, a lot of variable cloud and very short winter hours.

To be honest, switching to Ev over 162,000 Kms would cost me 2,500 Euro's, (night rate charging only based on 8Cent per Kwh) almost which is less than it cost me to run the prius at 60 mpg for a whole flipping year !

Diesel at 55 mpg would cost 9,560 at today's price per litre of about 1.15.

Diesel at 50 mpg would cost 10,500 Euro's all based on my efficiency of 17.4 Kwh/100 kms no major servicing, no oil filters, etc biggest service would be coolant change after about 162,000 kms. Rest are just inspections.

Less motor tax savings.

So Switching to EV is saving me way more than Solar PV + I can use the night meter to full advantage also bu using the immersion in Summer at night and washing machine, dryer etc.

Yes I had to buy (lease) the car but the prius was getting on and I needed a change and any other car apart from another ev of course would cost me much more money to run.

I reckoned 9kW would do you most of the year (back of an envelope calc.) then I added 1kW for merit.


Charging batteries from batteries is rarely a good idea. Inefficiencies compounded.

It's a shame our Grid is bad and decades behind the likes of Germany who all have 3 phase, the max the ESB allowed into the grid here anyway was 5 Kw on single phase. Ridiculous.

hexosan

What's the max you can export on a three phase connection.

quentingargan

hexosan wrote: »

What's the max you can export on a three phase connection.

It is 6kw on single phase and 11kw on three phase. 25A and 16A respectively. On three phase you can go above 11kw, but you need to pay €700 for a desktop survey to see if the local grid can use your power, and about the same again for a Mainspro relay.

Why you would do that when you don't get paid for the exports is, of course, a mute question. :rolleyes:

Conor20

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

10 kW should cover 8 months a year I reckon.

You can model this with a few free online tools.

NREL have a useful tool here which will take the location of your house, apply the local sunshine hours, etc. and calculate the estimated output for each month. You can play around with the inverter efficiencies, etc. if you want. This is what I get for a 4kW array:


Helioscope lets you draw out the panel area, then select panel makes, inverters, etc. and will model the energy output, again for the sunshine records for your area:

Says out of 8 Kwp I'd expect about 7,133 Kwh per year. If I go by my 15.2 Kwh average per day that would mean I need about 5,500 Kwh however this is excluding the free Kwh I get from the charger on the way home so I would estimate based on 28 Kwh per day driving and house I could need 7,000 Kwh per year but I could examine this in more detail.

Without feed-in-tariff this makes it all worthless. Battery would have to be enormous and mega expensive.

Again, I fail to see how a power wall would work in out climate, too much Summer and not enough for winter ?

Grid sotrage is perfect but unless we had proper guarantees over xx years forget it.

murphaph

Maybe already mentioned but Daimler has also gotten in on the whole powerwall business: https://schlauerspeichern.de/

Sorry, tis only in German but the data sheets could be translated easily enough if you're so inclined.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

Maybe already mentioned but Daimler has also gotten in on the whole powerwall business: https://schlauerspeichern.de/

Sorry, tis only in German but the data sheets could be translated easily enough if you're so inclined.

up to 10 Kwh storage.

See again I want to point out that while it would make a difference to have storage you'd be generating far too much to store in Summer and not nearly enough in winter and the pay back is far longer.

What do you do with the excess ?

I would wait until the ESB reintroduce a FIT.

On the Plus side of that though when I work nights I could use the solar when I charge the Leaf during the day, would roughly have about 9 Kwh left in the battery and would take 12 kwh to fill usually give or take a few Kwh.

murphaph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

up to 10 Kwh storage.

See again I want to point out that while it would make a difference to have storage you'd be generating far too much to store in Summer and not nearly enough in winter and the pay back is far longer.

What do you do with the excess ?

I would wait until the ESB reintroduce a FIT.

On the Plus side of that though when I work nights I could use the solar when I charge the Leaf during the day, would roughly have about 9 Kwh left in the battery and would take 12 kwh to fill usually give or take a few Kwh.

They are modular. 2.5kWh modules. If they price them like the Teslas they'll sell in Germany due to the shocking price of electricity here. FIT exists here but self consumption is preferred financially for anyone installing nowadays. I guess the viability off such products will always come down to local market forces.