S05 Ep10 - "Mother's Mercy" - HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS

TerrorFirmer

Serious GoT withdrawal at the moment! All the other shows I watch just feel a bit hollow now.

I'd recommend anyone feeling the same and hasn't seen 'Rome' or 'Spartacus', check them out. Rome is very like Game of Thrones, actually HBO's most expensive show ever, cost several million more than GoT per episode and it really shows - it's a beautiful production full of political skullduggery and violence.

The first season of Spartacus isn't great but Season 2 and particularly season 3 are excellent in my opinion. Not as political as Game of Thrones but has it's moments and some of the battle scenes are fantastic. Season 3 was stellar.

Think now that the books have caught up, it's time to read them! My sister has all of them so the epic undertaking begins this weekend.

FobleAsNuck

something is telling me that grr martin is trolling here a little bit and is himself not so sure where to go, fishing for fans ideas

DeadHand

Those are great last words for Stannis: "Do your duty".

Duty was paramount to him. Desire never came into it. He never wanted to be King- he simply was King. It was his duty to claim the throne. He went to insane extremes to fulfil this duty.

So, when he met Brienne in the wood he didn't try to explain or negotiate. He didn't ask for the mercy of death or life. He had no overriding desire for either. In that moment he recognised Breinne as a soldier and told her to do what he always demanded of his own soldiers and himself.

weldoninhio

wp_rathead wrote: »

What makes you think that?

Just a hunch

wp_rathead

weldoninhio wrote: »

Just a hunch

If was Twyin goin "You're no son of mine" it was cause Tyrion's birth resulted in the mother dying and Tywin and Cersei never forgave him for that

mzungu

senordingdong wrote: »

As you said, the whole Nights Watch plot will have no leading man. And we all saw how Melissandre took a special interest in him..and then abandoned Stannis to return to castle black.

Maybe Olly will redeem himself and lead the charge against the White Walkers in season 6 and then take the Iron Throne in season 7 :pac:

I agree though, Jons story arc is nowhere near complete and the Melissandre angle has yet to be explored. Its a bit of a ham fisted way of doing things though. Usually with GOT a lot of shocks or twists you don't see them coming, but I think pretty much everybody is of the view that the Melissandre will somehow bring him back to life. If he really is dead that leaves a hell of a lot of unanswered questions (lineage etc).

DarkoT

So Arya has just lost her vision? She'll be blind to the rest of the show?

Dan_Solo

senordingdong wrote: »

I think it has to be a red herring. As you said, the whole Nights Watch plot will have no leading man. And we all saw how Melissandre took a special interest in him..and then abandoned Stannis to return to castle black.

Not sure will the Watch follow Jon after they already wanted him dead and now he's necromancy powered? I'm still not really convinced the Watch would even let her back into Castle Black, she's obvious bad news.

senordingdong

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Not sure will the Watch follow Jon after they already wanted him dead and now he's necromancy powered? I'm still not really convinced the Watch would even let her back into Castle Black, she's obvious bad news.

But sure she's already there and IIRC, only a half dozen or so are against John.
Maybe they'll fear him once he returns from the dead.

Or maybe he's just gone, and Davos takes command of the watch.

mzungu

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Not sure will the Watch follow Jon after they already wanted him dead and now he's necromancy powered? I'm still not really convinced the Watch would even let her back into Castle Black, she's obvious bad news.

Most of the watch would not be aware of her prior dabblings in magic and such. It's really only Davos (in Castle Black) who knows fully the kind of stuff she gets up to.

Dan_Solo

mzungu wrote: »

Most of the watch would not be aware of her prior dabblings in magic and such. It's really only Davos (in Castle Black) who knows fully the kind of stuff she gets up to.

Ah come on. They must know she's a witch/priestess of some sort. What do they think she's there for otherwise? Davos would have plenty to say about her too.

mzungu

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Ah come on. They must know she's a witch/priestess of some sort. What do they think she's there for otherwise? Davos would have plenty to say about her too.

They had just left a few hundred wildlings in the day before, whats one witch gonna added to it! Plus they may have (correctly) thought she was delivering a message to Jon Snow, or Davos.

She was part of team Stannis too, they are all technically on the same side. With the white walkers on the rampage she is the least of Castle Blacks worries.

Dan_Solo

mzungu wrote: »

They had just left a few hundred wildlings in the day before, whats one witch gonna added to it! Plus they may have (correctly) thought she was delivering a message to Jon Snow, or Davos.

Just because they just let the wildlings through doesn't mean they don't have a clue of anything else happening. Plus if they're all on the same side, then why would they kill Jon for doing what Stannis had agreed to anyway?
And if they knew she was delivering messages to Jon that'd more reason NOT to trust her!

Nody

//MOD

The next user who posts a spoiler relating to interviews of who may or may not be there will receive a month's ban from this forum; the second user will get a permanent ban...

Yes I'm in a grumpy mode over the simple fact that NO SPOILERS SHOULD EVER BE POSTED apparently is to hard to follow for people...

//MOD

DarkoT

The best part for me in this episode was the fact that Theon Greyjoy is back, or not... We will see Omg so many yes or now in the last episode.

wp_rathead

DarkoT wrote: »

The best part for me in this episode was the fact that Theon Greyjoy is back, or not... We will see Omg so many yes or now in the last episode.

Theon is one of my favourite characters in the show
Easy to say he "betrayed" the Starks but gotta remember he was captive and had been taken away from his family as a child.
I know the Starks were good to him, and throughout the show they are seen as the moral compas, but he was still their prisoner
He went home to Pyke with the best intentions to help Robb (get the Ironborn to attack Casterly Rock) AND help his family - he negotiated for his father to be given the title of King of the Iron Islands
His family were bitter towards him so he tried to be someone he wasn't to satisfy them (he even wrote out a letter to Rob warning the Ironborn would attack the North but burnt it as he wanted his families acceptance)
Not justifying what he did at Winterfell but I do have sympathy for him
I mean, look at him, He is known as a Good Lover, A Good Archer (remember he saves Bran's life from the Wildlings in Season 1) and is so proud of his name as Lord Theon.
So what happens to him? Ramsay castrates him (no more banging), flays his fingers (can't use his bow) and renames him Reek

This one my fav scenes of the series, the conversation between Theon and Luwin

rawn

Nody wrote: »

//MOD

The next user who posts a spoiler relating to interviews of who may or may not be there will receive a month's ban from this forum; the second user will get a permanent ban...

Yes I'm in a grumpy mode over the simple fact that NO SPOILERS SHOULD EVER BE POSTED apparently is to hard to follow for people...

//MOD

Whoops, I thought I was in the book-readers thread

DarkoT

wp_rathead wrote: »

Theon is one of my favourite characters in the show
Easy to say he "betrayed" the Starks but gotta remember he was captive and had been taken away from his family as a child.
I know the Starks were good to him, and throughout the show they are seen as the moral compas, but he was still their prisoner
He went home to Pyke with the best intentions to help Robb (get the Ironborn to attack Casterly Rock) AND help his family - he negotiated for his father to be given the title of King of the Iron Islands
His family were bitter towards him so he tried to be someone he wasn't to satisfy them (he even wrote out a letter to Rob warning the Ironborn would attack the North but burnt it as he wanted his families acceptance)
Not justifying what he did at Winterfell but I do have sympathy for him
I mean, look at him, He is known as a Good Lover, A Good Archer (remember he saves Bran's life from the Wildlings in Season 1) and is so proud of his name as Lord Theon.
So what happens to him? Ramsay castrates him (no more banging), flays his fingers (can't use his bow) and renames him Reek

This one my fav scenes of the series, the conversation between Theon and Luwin

I agree with you, I'm just hoping he can return his dignity, and he will not die... But if he die let it be in bravery.

PressRun

I can't stand Theon. I wish Ramsey had just done away with him a couple of season back, tbh. He's irredeemable, imo, and it kinda pisses me off that he's still alive and other really good characters have been killed.

DarkoT

I wish Ramsey to be killed by Theon, but now that Theon is crippled that's impossible in a single battle, but I just hope that there will be some scene when Ramsey will be stabbed in the back multiple times by Theon, and later while he is still alive Theon to remove some vital parts from his body...

PressRun

Sansa should just kill them both.

GerB40

Am I the only one that hopes Ramsey gets Reek back. Fúck him, still don't forgive him for the sack of Winterfell.. Skin the bastard alive, I wanna see a reek shaped coat on a psychotically happy Ramsey...

seligehgit

GerB40 wrote: »

Am I the only one that hopes Ramsey gets Reek back. Fúck him, still don't forgive him for the sack of Winterfell.. Skin the bastard alive, I wanna see a reek shaped coat on a psychotically happy Ramsey...

Wouldn't go that far!:D You're not related to Ramsey Bolton by any chance!;) Only joking but yeah Thion Greyjoy was no angel by any stretch of the imagination.Time does tend to affect peoples recollection of the character of Thion.

catallus

seligehgit wrote: »

Time does tend to affect peoples recollection of the character of Thion.

That and all the stuff that's happened to him, in fairness the guy deserves just a small bit of a break. :pac:

seligehgit

catallus wrote: »

That and all the stuff that's happened to him, in fairness the guy deserves just a small bit of a break. :pac:

Agreed but Ramsey is a proper badass villian who deserves his comeuppance but not too soon.Such a great character,the darker characters are oftentimes so much more interesting.Having said that I was so disappointed at what happened to Jon Snow who really was somebody who was worth shouting for.

catallus

Pugzilla wrote: »

I think she was momentarily taken aback when Stannis said "Do your duty."
He's an injured and broken man. It's out of character for the honourable Brienne to kill him for revenge.


That said, he could well be dead. Only have to wait 10 more months to find out.

Brienne saw the shadow in the shape of Stannis kill Renly.

Maybe she wants to know what the story is there and will keep him alive?

She would see killing Millasandre as being the only way to avenge Renly's death, and we all know what honour means to her!

J. Marston

catallus wrote: »

Brienne saw the shadow in the shape of Stannis kill Renly.

Maybe she wants to know what the story is there and will keep him alive?

She would see killing Millasandre as being the only way to avenge Renly's death, and we all know what honour means to her!

I was convinced Stannis was dead but that's given me some doubt. Maybe Brienne will want to use blood magic to kill the Boltons to save Sansa?

DarkoT

J. Marston wrote: »

I was convinced Stannis was dead but that's given me some doubt. Maybe Brienne will want to use blood magic to kill the Boltons to save Sansa?

Yes, and I think she will swing her sword into the tree, to scare him...

wp_rathead

As much as I want them to be alive it be some BS if both Stannis and Jon aren't dead come next season
If one isn't dead /is resurrected fair enough - but both and it be bit pantomime

Mal-Adjusted

Having seen it a few days after everyone else, a few things struck me as off.
Staniss has been described as the greatest military leader in Westeros. We saw his army as huge enough to instantly subdue the wildlings. How could he be so stupid to lose over half his force in such a relatively short time? Then when he knew his force was so depleted, why keep going towards a hopeless siege? Why were the Boltons even worried about him when they had a massive army themselves? Why even go for the Boltons? Why not get on his ships and head straight for Kings landing?

That all aside, a huge deal was made of the Barathian/Bolton clash all season and when we finally get there, they don't even show the battle FFS! I also wonder if we've seen the last of Staniss, it's very unlike GoT to cut away from someone being killed.

Danearis continues to faff about doing nothing and be boring. She's no closer to invading Westeros than she was two seasons ago. In fact, she seems to be regressing, going from conquering cities to back to Dothraki. They also don't bother showing us how the rest of the Scooby gang got out of the fighting pit from ep.9. Were they not still surrounded by sons of the harpies?

I constantly wait for Sansa to man up and take charge of her own destiny, but lets someone else save her at every opportunity. (also, it looked clear to me that she and Theon jumped into a snow bank, even though the snow was suppose to have thawed)

As others have said, being one of the last Starks out for revenge is what makes Arya interesting. if she really "becomes no-one",then she stops being a compelling character. I know loads of book readers love the House of black and white stuff. Maybe it doesn't translate to screen well but i found it a bit tedious.

Cercei's walk was good, but i just couldn't have any sympathy for her. Partly because she was in a hole of her own making but mostly because she was heading to the safety of the Red Keep. and now that there's someone with balls in there, she'll surely bring swift, savage vengeance down on the faith militant? I'm actually surprised the High Sparrow even let her go. Surely he would have known that?

The Wall. I honestly don't know what to make of this. I liked Jon Snow but wasn't gutted to see him die (not as gutted as he was, in the end). I found him too similar to his brother and father (too much honour, not enough brains) but with him dead and Sam gone to Old Town, we have no POV characters at the wall anymore. (yeah Davos is there but he's hardly going to hang around for long.). So either Jon isn't quite finished yet or they need all the competent people out of the way so the White Walkers can overpower the Watch and breach the wall.

The point of a shock death is that you don't expect it to happen (Ned Stark, Rob Stark). Now it feels almost routine.

bren2001

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Having seen it a few days after everyone else, a few things struck me as off.
Staniss has been described as the greatest military leader in Westeros. We saw his army as huge enough to instantly subdue the wildlings. How could he be so stupid to lose over half his force in such a relatively short time? Then when he knew his force was so depleted, why keep going towards a hopeless siege? Why were the Boltons even worried about him when they had a massive army themselves? Why even go for the Boltons? Why not get on his ships and head straight for Kings landing?

He lost his army overnight because he burned his daughter alive. The sell swords, who have no loyalty apart to coin, left him in the middle of the night. If he was willing to burn his own daughter, what would he do to them when time dictates?

He continued his march towards Winterfell because he was convinced the Lord of Light was on his side. It was his destiny. This blinded him from common sense. He sent Davos away for this reason (and because he was killing his daughter).

The Boltons only gained such a large army when Stannis's was reduced. It is a fair assumption to make, that the sell swords went to Winterfell and joined the Boltons. Hence why the Boltons were worried prior to this.

Why not head to Kings Landing? Well shipping down that many people is difficult and he tried that before but KL had Dragon Fire and absolutely destroyed him. If he could unite the North behind him his army would have been massive. Similar to Robb. He had no real choice other than take Winterfell and rally the North.

RichFTW

DarkoT wrote: »

Yes, and I think she will swing her sword into the tree, to scare him...

At first I thought she killed him but now I think she kept him alive so that he can admit he killed Renly and so clear her name. It's a bit unbelievable that they wouldn't show the death considering most people wanted to see him die after burning his daughter and the show has always shown deaths in a gruesome fashion.

goose2005

wp_rathead wrote: »

Have a feeling Sam gonna be a big part in the overall storyline
GRRM seems like the idea of seemingly "weak" characters having a big say like Bran or Tyrion, while prototype heroes having **** time like Obreyn, Rob Stark, Jamie Lannister etc.

I do hope Sam either grows a pair or something happens Gilly as they rather tedious at the moment I'll agree

sam is a fat nerd, i.e. a self-insert by GRRM, so obviously he gets the girl, kills a white walker and later probably saves the world.

dark crystal

I don't understand the speculation about Stannis being alive. Brienne abandoned Sansa watch to kill him and it had been her mission to do so for a long time.

We don't have to see a character die on screen to know they're dead; e.g, The Hound.

I just can't see any logical reason why Brienne, being the faithful and single minded Knight she is, would have spared him.

T-K-O

dark crystal wrote: »

I don't understand the speculation about Stannis being alive. Brienne abandoned Sansa watch to kill him and it had been her mission to do so for a long time.

We don't have to see a character die on screen to know they're dead; e.g, The Hound.

I just can't see any logical reason why Brienne, being the faithful and single minded Knight she is, would have spared him.

The hound was a complelty different situation, he was left to die. I would imagine it was Purposely shot that way to develop aryas character

DarkoT

How do you know that The Hound is dead?

T-K-O

DarkoT wrote: »

How do you know that The Hound is dead?

Spoiler alert. He was dead all along.

catallus

T-K-O wrote: »

Spoiler alert. He was dead all along.

:eek:

mind blown :pac:

J. Marston

We didn't see Xaro Xhoan Daxos die either. Maybe he escaped the vault and is the person behind the Sons of the Harpy.

Dun dun duuuuun....

DarkoT

T-K-O wrote: »

Spoiler alert. He was dead all along.

Naaah I still think he's alive...

DeadHand

RichFTW wrote: »

At first I thought she killed him but now I think she kept him alive so that he can admit he killed Renly and so clear her name. It's a bit unbelievable that they wouldn't show the death considering most people wanted to see him die after burning his daughter and the show has always shown deaths in a gruesome fashion.

Brienne isn't really interested in clearing her name. It's already widely accepted that she didn't kill Renly. How else would she be allowed to attend Joffrey's wedding? There is no one out to avenge Renly apart from herself and Loras and Loras clearly doesn't hold her responsible since she was welcome at his sister's wedding.

Stannis is clearly dead, I'm afraid.

ben.schlomo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If I need to have read the book to know what's happening then the writers of the TV show have, by definition, failed in their job.

Ya but you dont have to read the book, i think some people just think about things way too much, its not that hard to interpret whats happening in the show. If youre going to over-think every detail then the show would need to be three or four hours long every week.

RichFTW

DeadHand wrote: »

Brienne isn't really interested in clearing her name. It's already widely accepted that she didn't kill Renly. How else would she be allowed to attend Joffrey's wedding? There is no one out to avenge Renly apart from herself and Loras and Loras clearly doesn't hold her responsible since she was welcome at his sister's wedding.

Stannis is clearly dead, I'm afraid.

Good point, forgot she was at the wedding. Still think it's a bit strange that they didn't show the actual death. Just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't show it unless something else was going on.

DeadHand

RichFTW wrote: »

Good point, forgot she was at the wedding. Still think it's a bit strange that they didn't show the actual death. Just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't show it unless something else was going on.

Storywise, there is no reason to keep Stannis on. His race is run. Why devote screen time to him sulking at the wall or being dragged (to where, exactly?) by Brienne around the countryside when so much else needs to be covered next season?

Characterwise, there is no way Brienne would spare him. She vowed to kill him and takes her vows seriously. Stannis is probably the least likely person in the entire story to talk his way out of that situation. He was the polar opposite to Tyrion in many ways.

Al Capwned

Has it been announced, officially or unofficially, how many seasons the writes envisage?

Did I read something lately that one of them said?

DarkoT

Brienne will swing her sword into the tree, that's my opinion. She is not over with Stannis

RichFTW

DeadHand wrote: »

Storywise, there is no reason to keep Stannis on. His race is run. Why devote screen time to him sulking at the wall or being dragged (to where, exactly?) by Brienne around the countryside when so much else needs to be covered next season?

Characterwise, there is no way Brienne would spare him. She vowed to kill him and takes her vows seriously. Stannis is probably the least likely person in the entire story to talk his way out of that situation. He was the polar opposite to Tyrion in many ways.

TV wise, there is no reason to kill him off screen. He is too important a character and too hated a villain after his daughters death to waste his death by not showing it. The Hound being left to die worked as it showed what Arya was now capable of doing, i.e. leaving a man to die in pain. The same ambiguous death doesn't work for Stanis as it accomplishes nothing.

The only thing I can think of is that she wants him to stand trial and then be sentenced to death.

Edit: Possibly stand trial and be sent to the wall as part of the nights watch instead of being killed? Would then solve the problem of not having a main character at the wall. Free up Jon (who I also think will be back) to do something else in the story?

masculinist

I have a feeling Jon Snow will be resurrected and- this is a stab in the dark- that the reason why Stannis failed is because when he sacrified his daughter the magic didn't work or something - which means he is not rightful King and his bloodline wasnt rightful ; all of which leaves Jon Snow's blood to satisfy the witches lust for power. The witch might have been shocked to discover the sacrifice of the blood of daughter of Stannis to have been rejected by whatever evil she worships . I'm struggling to remember last season now. I cant remember if Gendry Baratheon lives or not. If they kill off everyone then they need to develop some of the less known characters more so we feel we know them.

iamanengine

masculinist wrote: »

I have a feeling Jon Snow will be resurrected and- this is a stab in the dark- that the reason why Stannis failed is because when he sacrified his daughter the magic didn't work or something - which means he is not rightful King and his bloodline wasnt rightful ; all of which leaves Jon Snow's blood to satisfy the witches lust for power. The witch might have been shocked to discover the sacrifice of the blood of daughter of Stannis to have been rejected by whatever evil she worships . I'm struggling to remember last season now. I cant remember if Gendry Baratheon lives or not. If they kill off everyone then they need to develop some of the less known characters more so we feel we know them.

But technically it did work because the snow melted, or at least that was what I gathered.

DeadHand

RichFTW wrote: »

TV wise, there is no reason to kill him off screen. He is too important a character and too hated a villain after his daughters death to waste his death by not showing it. The Hound being left to die worked as it showed what Arya was now capable of doing, i.e. leaving a man to die in pain. The same ambiguous death doesn't work for Stanis as it accomplishes nothing.

The only thing I can think of is that she wants him to stand trial and then be sentenced to death.

Edit: Possibly stand trial and be sent to the wall as part of the nights watch instead of being killed? Would then solve the problem of not having a main character at the wall. Free up Jon (who I also think will be back) to do something else in the story?

Brienne sentenced him to death herself, as was her right as the representative of (in her view) the rightful King.

A man cannot be "sentenced" to serve with the Night's Watch. It requires an oath. An oath that would mean for Stannis forsaking his claim to the throne. A claim he has struggled for years against daunting odds, fought personally in three massive battles and murdered his brother and daughter for. A person of this insane determination will hardly forsake what he sees as his solemn duty because someone swung a sword near his head and scolded him. Swearing a false oath is equally unlikely for a man like Stannis.

Stannises death accomplishes plenty as it concludes his part of the tale and frees up a ton of time for the various other unconcluded threads.