Tyson Fury (undisputed world champion!) vs Vladimir SEE MOD WARNING POST#558

Frank Bullitt

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Okay I think we can draw some calm to this all. When you used quick to describe Wlads hands I take that as in Tyson quick or Larry Holmes jab quick. For a guy 6'6" he has great handspeed, for a guy 6'6" that is. My own viewpoint is that Joshua is quicker, a video won't prove that only a proper slow mo analysis to the millisecond which I don't think either of us have the interest in completing.
I don't deny that Wlad has beaten all put before him, but some of them like all boxers records are tin cans. So when I see a video of 53 kos, it tells me what I already know 53 kos. Does it learn either of us anything knew? He has a decent left hook to the head. He has a tremendous straight right, but we all knew that as is logical for a guy 6'6" with long arms, size and ability to throw it with some speed.
However I have doubts about his chin from his three losses and that is not in that video. Same as Kevin Kilbanes all round game would not be in a video of his goals.
I don't believe he would have hung in there with a Lennox Lewis (no need to reference Vitalis fight)
I don't believe he will beat Anthony Joshua if they ever fight.
That does not make me somehow completely not rating Wlad. I think Lennox Lewis is an all time great and I am of a small but growing opinion that Anthony Joshua has all that is needed to be the next heavyweight champion. I can't provide you any evidence that he can be no more than you can provide me evidence he can't beat Wlad.
If Wlad beats Antony Joshua or if Joshua slips up meanwhile against a lesser name I'll be back on here to say that I got it wrong.
If Joshua one day beats Wlad will you be back on here? Will I have fluked that prediction? It's not exactly an earth shattering counter point to believe a powerful fighter like Joshua could take Wlad. I can't base it on any pro wins, all I can look at is my own eyes judgement of his power and ability. If a guy is competitive at Olympic level within 4 years and has outstanding power, size and athleticism it is hardly a shock predicition that I am saying he can be a champion.
My whole point all through this has been that the fighter to beat Wlad has been rare this past 20 years, 6'4" with size and power. Until Joshua has come along I don't have a name for you to match those criteria in 20 years. Clearly they have to be able to box and I believe Joshua can box.
So we might as well leave this debate and stick to the Fury - Wlad debate.
On that topic as I said I'm waiting to see what shape Tyson turns up in. He will need to be in good shape for Wlad as Wlad has never shown any stamina issues whereas Tyson certainly has in fights.

We'll agree to disagree, good discussion though.

I agree that Joshua has potential, but its a very big claim to suggest that he could beat Wlad. I think by the time Joshua is at a stage to make a name outside of the UK, Wlad might have retired, although at the current rate he shows no signs of that. If you were to put them into the ring together now, Joshua would get a hard schooling from Wlad, and I assert that. I would also put Wilder above Joshua as well in terms of the long term potential. Joshua is being incubated right now at his early stage in his pro career, which is a logical and good thing to do. Putting him in a ring with anyone with more about them would or could be a huge blip on the strategy side of things.

Wlad isn't invincible, but he has adapted and perfected a very effective and powerful style for HW, and anyone who has tried to go against him (tin can or not) in the past 10 or so years, has failed. Its also not a given that he would have the abilities he has just from his size. He is good because he is gifted. A true all time great.

As for his fight with Fury, the pre-fight stuff that Fury will do it part of his game, but it simply will not work against Wlad at all. He is far to experienced to get dragged into sideshow tricks, and he dealt with Hayes antics by simply ignoring them and then making a show of him.

Fury, like all before him, has the potential to trouble and make a fight of it with Wlad. But he is the underdog, he has shown good skill in the ring, but his fight with Chisora was painful to watch, Wlad would have taken both of them at the same time that night.

He has size on his side, but Wlad has the experience for this as well. Fury needs to be in shape for this, and the best shape he has ever been at that, to even trouble Wlad properly over 12 rounds (if it goes that long). I am looking forward to seeing it, but I still give it to Wlad based on everything considered.

efb

Can't believe Fury is even at this stage. Doesn't say much for HW division

barney4001

I don't deny that Wlad has beaten all put before him, but some of them like all boxers records are tin cans. So when I see a video of 53 kos, it tells me what I already know 53 kos. Does it learn either of us anything knew? He has a decent left hook to the head. He has a tremendous straight right, but we all knew that as is logical for a guy 6'6" with long arms, size and ability to throw it with some speed.

and i think fury is the biggest tin can of them all,Wlad will get him out of it in 3 rounds

davegrohl48

Tyson genuinely seems to believe his own press. He has recently admitted that it's only the last few fights he has started taking fitness seriously. Quite evident when he togged out visibly overweight for all of his earlier fights. Still not what I would call in a good state of fitness. Pretty rare occurrence someone discovers the drive to be at the peak of fitness after not being bothered in their early 20's.
Tysons strengths are obvious:
- One of the longest left jabs that can prod and push you.
- A decent jaw he has taken some shots
- Waste of time hitting him to the body, you'll break your own wrist before you'll hurt him to the body. He has ribs and tissue cover like a bull.
Tysons flaws are obvious:
- Huge drop off in work rate after six rounds
- Likes to get up close but physically cannot hurt you to the body or with upper cuts. Cannot whip those long arms into effective hooks from close range.
For me finally his biggest flaw. When you pressure Tyson with typcially strong overhand rights he is on his bike like Audley Harrison. Terrified of being hit. That is fine, sensible boxing is to get back out of range. But just like Harrison, Tyson goes completely into reverse mode, straightens up his back and neck and takes a full step n a half back. Of course this puts him completely out of range most of the time. It is the follow up now where he is vulnerable. He is now upright to his full height, his momentum is going backwards and he is flat on his feet. At this point a smart fighter can have faked the initial shot and come in powerful when Tyson has moved to a poor boxing stance.
In later rounds as Tyson loses footspeed and general speed of movement to evade with his head he is sometimes even within range during this pull back.
This is something you don't tend to see with great fighters they never leave themselves in a poor stance upright, feet close together flat on their feet. Tyson with his height and size is forced to bring both legs back stepping rather than on his toes. So he's flatter on his feet than most in reverse mode.
If you are willing to take Tysons jab you can expose plenty about him in later rounds by faking with the left and then coming strongly at him with a high overhand right.
You can forget about the body though. Wear yourself down hitting him there before you'd wear him down.

Frank Bullitt

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Tyson genuinely seems to believe his own press. He has recently admitted that it's only the last few fights he has started taking fitness seriously. Quite evident when he togged out visibly overweight for all of his earlier fights. Still not what I would call in a good state of fitness. Pretty rare occurrence someone discovers the drive to be at the peak of fitness after not being bothered in their early 20's.
Tysons strengths are obvious:
- One of the longest left jabs that can prod and push you.
- A decent jaw he has taken some shots
- Waste of time hitting him to the body, you'll break your own wrist before you'll hurt him to the body. He has ribs and tissue cover like a bull.
Tysons flaws are obvious:
- Huge drop off in work rate after six rounds
- Likes to get up close but physically cannot hurt you to the body or with upper cuts. Cannot whip those long arms into effective hooks from close range.
For me finally his biggest flaw. When you pressure Tyson with typcially strong overhand rights he is on his bike like Audley Harrison. Terrified of being hit. That is fine, sensible boxing is to get back out of range. But just like Harrison, Tyson goes completely into reverse mode, straightens up his back and neck and takes a full step n a half back. Of course this puts him completely out of range most of the time. It is the follow up now where he is vulnerable. He is now upright to his full height, his momentum is going backwards and he is flat on his feet. At this point a smart fighter can have faked the initial shot and come in powerful when Tyson has moved to a poor boxing stance.
In later rounds as Tyson loses footspeed and general speed of movement to evade with his head he is sometimes even within range during this pull back.
This is something you don't tend to see with great fighters they never leave themselves in a poor stance upright, feet close together flat on their feet. Tyson with his height and size is forced to bring both legs back stepping rather than on his toes. So he's flatter on his feet than most in reverse mode.
If you are willing to take Tysons jab you can expose plenty about him in later rounds by faking with the left and then coming strongly at him with a high overhand right.
You can forget about the body though. Wear yourself down hitting him there before you'd wear him down.

You are KIDDING ME HERE!!!!

davegrohl48

I only mean that he's not going to fall in a heap with the first reasonable shot.
Physically you have to reach up to hit him. Guys with thick necks can take a shot is generally not a bad rule. Their head doesn't bobble around as violently after the shot so they don't suffer the same acceleration/deceleration instananeous force as thinner necked guy.

Frank Bullitt

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I only mean that he's not going to fall in a heap with the first reasonable shot.
Physically you have to reach up to hit him. Guys with thick necks can take a shot is generally not a bad rule. Their head doesn't bobble around as violently after the shot so they don't suffer the same acceleration/deceleration instananeous force as thinner necked guy.

Like this? From a cruiserweight none the less.

davegrohl48

Yes, exactly like that. The textbook way to take down Fury when he backs up or is not careful with his guard or distance.
I was aware of that Steve Cunningham knockdown. That shot caught flush would have taken many fighters down. Technically he gets great whip on it and in terms of accuracy and range Fury is right where he shouldn't be ... at probably the fastest point in that particular punches trajectory. It was a great shot, not many would have stayed up. Fury did well to bounce straight up, no jelly leggedness in him immediately afterwards.
But yes, those are the kind of extreme overhand rights circling over the top like a Cricketers bowling motion you have to throw to take down someone of Furys height.

Mantis Toboggan

Gintonious wrote: »

Like this? From a cruiserweight none the less.

People constantly reference back to that knock down and it's kind of annoying, at heavyweight level anyone can go down if taking a shot flush. Remember tyson got up and knocked him out. He didn't wilt like the coward David price. Fury also didn't have his coach in his corner and fought an erratic fight. He's 7 foot tall, top heavy and was off balance. People should instead look to his last few performances were he gave an exhibition in jabbing the head off his opponents.

Mantis Toboggan

Gintonious wrote: »

Like this? From a cruiserweight none the less.

Actually looking again at the clip it's amazing to think that Fury came back and knocked cunningham out. Showed serious heart, probably Fury's biggest attribute, he's a proper warrior.

efb

Proper?

Frank Bullitt

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Yes, exactly like that. The textbook way to take down Fury when he backs up or is not careful with his guard or distance.
I was aware of that Steve Cunningham knockdown. That shot caught flush would have taken many fighters down. Technically he gets great whip on it and in terms of accuracy and range Fury is right where he shouldn't be ... at probably the fastest point in that particular punches trajectory. It was a great shot, not many would have stayed up. Fury did well to bounce straight up, no jelly leggedness in him immediately afterwards.
But yes, those are the kind of extreme overhand rights circling over the top like a Cricketers bowling motion you have to throw to take down someone of Furys height.

It did take him down!

If a fighter like Cunningham can do that to Fury, imagine if Wlad catches him.

People constantly reference back to that knock down and it's kind of annoying, at heavyweight level anyone can go down if taking a shot flush. Remember tyson got up and knocked him out. He didn't wilt like the coward David price. Fury also didn't have his coach in his corner and fought an erratic fight. He's 7 foot tall, top heavy and was off balance. People should instead look to his last few performances were he gave an exhibition in jabbing the head off his opponents.

The kind of thing that Wlad does for fun. His jab is hydraulically powered, and regardless of size, I feel he will utilize it very well in the fight.

My main point about this particular knock down is that Cunningham is a small heavyweight by modern standards, more of a big cruiserweight. Fury made his size and jab count and wore him down in the following 5 rounds before finishing him off. You generally don't get that with Wladimir.

Mantis Toboggan

Gintonious wrote: »

It did take him down!

If a fighter like Cunningham can do that to Fury, imagine if Wlad catches him.




My main point about this particular knock down is that Cunningham is a small heavyweight by modern standards, more of a big cruiserweight.

Cunningham is 6 foot 3 inches. Don't get this obsession with height. Chisora is only 6 foot and Vladimir couldn't get rid of him.

How tall does one need to be a real heavyweight these days?

Frank Bullitt

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Cunningham is 6 foot 3 inches. Don't get this obsession with height. Chisora is only 6 foot and Vladimir couldn't get rid of him.

How tall does one need to be a real heavyweight these days?

Im not just talking about height, weight also. Size etc was brought up more so by another poster implying that Wladimir only does well against smaller opposition etc, whereas he has beaten bigger and heavier opponents. Once fighters from the Eastern block turned up, the average size of a HW went up quite a lot.

A HW can be 4'11 or 7ft, doesn't really matter. But it is used as an excuse if the bigger guy wins.

Also you must be referring to Vitali, cause Wladimir didn't fight Chisora. Vitali also fought the majority of that fight with a torn rotator cuff in his shoulder.

Mantis Toboggan

Gintonious wrote: »

It did take him down!

If a fighter like Cunningham can do that to Fury, imagine if Wlad catches him.





My main point about this particular knock down is that Cunningham is a small heavyweight by modern standards, more of a big cruiserweight. Fury made his size and jab count and wore him down in the following 5 rounds before finishing him off. You generally don't get that with Wladimir.

Was lamon brewster a cruiserweight or heavyweight when he knocked out Vlad out?

Frank Bullitt

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Was lamon brewster a cruiserweight or heavyweight when he knocked out Vlad out?

Brewster was always a heavyweight, even through his amateur career. He also didn't flatten Wlad with one punch either.

Cunningham and Brewster are 2 different fighters in terms of stature, Brewster was around 20-30lbs heavier when he fought in HW.

No excuses when he did the work on Wlad, he won fair and square. Only realized also that that was his last loss, 2004.

davegrohl48

That particular type of punch is the fastest type of punch a human can generate. So when it lands, it lands with tremendous force regardless of the size of the fighter.

Mantis Toboggan

Anyone see the press conference?

cowzerp

davegrohl48 wrote: »

That particular type of punch is the fastest type of punch a human can generate. So when it lands, it lands with tremendous force regardless of the size of the fighter.

How do you make that out?!

I'm pretty sure a good jab is faster than an overhand right, actually a good boxer wont have much difference in speed between any of his punches but a straight line is the quickest route to a target.

FTA69

davegrohl48 wrote: »

That particular type of punch is the fastest type of punch a human can generate. So when it lands, it lands with tremendous force regardless of the size of the fighter.

I'm actually scarlet for your mam the amount of nonsense you're coming out with on this thread.

Frank Bullitt

FTA69 wrote: »

I'm actually scarlet for your mam the amount of nonsense you're coming out with on this thread.

We need our entertainment in any form.

Mantis Toboggan

pac_man wrote: »

Tyson is comedy gold. Press conference here.

Haha priceless, I fully expect fireworks before they ever get into the ring. Tyson is well able to talk the talk but can he walk the walk.

Frank Bullitt

The gulf of class between the 2 of them is immense.

I will admit, Fury is entertaining, but trying to get into the head of Wlad is like breaking into Fort Knox.

Frank Bullitt

Panic E

Personally I think Wlad may have a challenge on his hands.

And I think he knows it. Interesting, should be a good bout.

Frank Bullitt

Panic E wrote: »

Personally I think Wlad may have a challenge on his hands.

And I think he knows it. Interesting, should be a good bout.

I don't think he is underestimating Fury by any stretch. He won't have it all his own way but I still see him beating Fury.

mada82

I think wlad will win this handy enough.
I just don't see any area where fury is better.

If wlad fights aggressive ( like pulev) I think he could have fury out within 6.

Mantis Toboggan

I just hope Fury hires a dietitian or whatever it takes to arrive at peak condition for the fight. He may not get another shot for the title, might as well do himself justice and give himself every possible chance. Think Fury in top condition and fighting a disciplined fight will be hard to beat. I'll be having a nibble on that 4/1

walshb

mada82 wrote: »

I think wlad will win this handy enough.
I just don't see any area where fury is better.

If wlad fights aggressive ( like pulev) I think he could have fury out within 6.

Fury is 3-4 inches taller than Pulev. Wlad won't be all that aggressive, and even if he is he will have a harder time reaching the chin of Fury.

davegrohl48

cowzerp wrote: »

How do you make that out?!

I'm pretty sure a good jab is faster than an overhand right, actually a good boxer wont have much difference in speed between any of his punches but a straight line is the quickest route to a target.

Boxing obeys the laws of physics and human body mechanics are well studied. Straight line is the shortest route. My meaning is the speed at moment of impact is highest on the extremely exagerated overhand punch similar to the one in the knockdown of Fury. However that punch is hard to land flush. Poor use of word quickest on my part however the speed through the air of the boxers glove is at its maximal possible on that punch. However you are talking about needing a taller fighter to land it on in order for the punch to land and transfer most power in a direction that snaps the boxers head backwards to help ko or knockdown. Similar to those arcade machines where punch target is high up. Tiny Danny Dyer using that exact punch outpunched a medium effort from Holyfield a much bigger man with experience who only used a straight right. Highest speed at impact but hard to land directionally flush is the punch I indicated. Sports science indicates Im right.

Frank Bullitt

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Boxing obeys the laws of physics and human body mechanics are well studied. Straight line is the shortest route. My meaning is the speed at moment of impact is highest on the extremely exagerated overhand punch similar to the one in the knockdown of Fury. However that punch is hard to land flush. Poor use of word quickest on my part however the speed through the air of the boxers glove is at its maximal possible on that punch. However you are talking about needing a taller fighter to land it on in order for the punch to land and transfer most power in a direction that snaps the boxers head backwards to help ko or knockdown. Similar to those arcade machines where punch target is high up. Tiny Danny Dyer using that exact punch outpunched a medium effort from Holyfield a much bigger man with experience who only used a straight right. Highest speed at impact but hard to land directionally flush is the punch I indicated. Sports science indicates Im right.

What the hell is going on here?

davegrohl48

The sports science angle to this is studied to the nth degree in terms of throwing a javelin, baseball, cricket ball, etc. All studies show this is how you can generate maximum speed as your arm is moving with circular motion in a high arc using most efficiently the forces starting from legs to accelerate your fist forward with the highest acceleration to the highest possible speed. Its simple physics and most efficient useage of our body mechanics. As this punch is circular motion it is usually more suited to shorter guys hitting taller guys. Like those punch targets in arcades the height can be adjusted and the exact same punch will produce different power outputs, the perfect height being different for each persons mechanics. Quickest time of punch is not being debated here. A jab from 5cm away is a valid jab. Just pure measurement of mph or kph what was the speed of the punch when it landed.

davegrohl48

Gintonious wrote: »

What the hell is going on here?

I know the Danny Dyer angle is a bit out there but it was on a football show Saturday morning few years ago. Dyer was top of the leaderboard on a punch test with one of those high targets. Evander used a normal straight right going only medium. No experience Dyer used lets say the advantage of human mechanics and a runup in fairness to completely obliterate the field. Mainly his punch technique was the reason. Its simple sports science as much as ye will all laugh. And yes there is a correlation between events like baseball, javelin etc and that type of punch. Correlation but not exact same technique but from legs to fist its the same science being applied in different sports.

Frank Bullitt

I'm totally lost as to what that has to do at all with Fury vs Wlad.

FTA69

Who let Buzz Killington in?

kumate_champ07

overhand right is very popular in mma, I wouldnt call it the fastest punch but it can be the most powerful, Roy Nelson uses it alot.

Frank Bullitt

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

overhand right is very popular in mma, I wouldnt call it the fastest punch but it can be the most powerful, Roy Nelson uses it alot.

Is that what he is trying to say? I got lost when he mentioned trajectory, physics, arc and Danny Dyer.

Frank Bullitt

pac_man wrote: »

I'm kinda at a loss as to how this relevant to this fight. Can you try keep on-topic or make it more explicit as to why "sport science" is relevant between these two fighters and this fight.

Well actually, Wlad does have his PhD in sports science, so its KINDA relevant in a roundabout way...I guess?

walshb

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Boxing obeys the laws of physics and human body mechanics are well studied. Straight line is the shortest route. My meaning is the speed at moment of impact is highest on the extremely exagerated overhand punch similar to the one in the knockdown of Fury. However that punch is hard to land flush. Poor use of word quickest on my part however the speed through the air of the boxers glove is at its maximal possible on that punch. However you are talking about needing a taller fighter to land it on in order for the punch to land and transfer most power in a direction that snaps the boxers head backwards to help ko or knockdown. Similar to those arcade machines where punch target is high up. Tiny Danny Dyer using that exact punch outpunched a medium effort from Holyfield a much bigger man with experience who only used a straight right. Highest speed at impact but hard to land directionally flush is the punch I indicated. Sports science indicates Im right.

I like it......

cowzerp

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I know the Danny Dyer angle is a bit out there but it was on a football show Saturday morning few years ago. Dyer was top of the leaderboard on a punch test with one of those high targets. Evander used a normal straight right going only medium. No experience Dyer used lets say the advantage of human mechanics and a runup in fairness to completely obliterate the field. Mainly his punch technique was the reason. Its simple sports science as much as ye will all laugh. And yes there is a correlation between events like baseball, javelin etc and that type of punch. Correlation but not exact same technique but from legs to fist its the same science being applied in different sports.

The trajectory of a javelin that is let go and goes at speed is not the same as transferring that speed while landing on a target with weight, most overhand rights in Boxing are arm punches meaning the weight of the arm and the speed make up the power, of course you can land full power getting full weight in as Oliver McCall did v Lewis but the same could be said for all punches, personally i can generate more power with a left hook than an over hand right

Also Danny Dyer lashed into the Boxing machine and Evander very casually hit it as i am sure beating a bunch of muppets on a punch machine wasn't high on his boxing achievements to do list, I remember watching it.

To make this relevant to the fight! I don't see either lads throwing any overhand rights

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Also Danny Dyer muppets

Some sense on this finally!

Mantis Toboggan

Will this be PPV?

Rough Sleeper

Dennis Reynolds wrote: »

Will this be PPV?

Haye vs. Klitshcko was PPV and I reckon this will be on a similar scale, so I'd very much imagine so.

walshb

This fight is one that is worthy of PPV. More than almost all fights of recent memory.

Mantis Toboggan

walshb wrote: »

This fight is one that is worthy of PPV. More than almost all fights of recent memory.

Yeah that's probably true. A good undercard would be nice. Great that it will be on at a decent hour.

Littlehorny

walshb wrote: »

This fight is one that is worthy of PPV. More than almost all fights of recent memory.

I remember getting excited for the Haye vs Klitchko one too. I thought yes! finally a heavyweight title fight worth watching and then .......damn

Frank Bullitt

Littlehorny wrote: »

I remember getting excited for the Haye vs Klitchko one too. I thought yes! finally a heavyweight title fight worth watching and then .......damn

His poor toe.

Bowlardo

would he have taken anyone...the speed was crazy for a heavyweight

barney4001

Bowlardo wrote: »

would he have taken anyone...the speed was crazy for a heavyweight

yes he did look unbeatable back then

menoscemo

Tyson's funniest interview yet :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcObblCXidA