Iceland is Doing Very Well

AlphaRed

They burned the bond holders
Let the banks fail
No austerity measures
Jailed executives who were responsible

This is only a short clip below but apparently they did not go through the suffering everywhere else had to go through and today their economy is doing better than ever.

diomed

May not be 100% true.

The Diabolical Monocle

They're not int ruddy EU though innit.

jimgoose

Peter Andre is still a flute, though.

LadyFenghuang

They had the people power and the political honesty we lack. Our politicians are not as accountable as theirs. Also the gap between politicians and people is greater here. They think they are untouchable.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Top of their Euro Qualifying group to boot.

Son Of A Vidic

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

They think they are untouchable.

They are.

Cookie_Monster

maybe you should move there if its such a great place then OP...
they even have gay marriage, one of your favorite topics.

LadyFenghuang

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

They are.

di11on

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

They are.

They're not - it's the people that make them accountable. We're just soft and bend over and take it every time.

Honestly, you lot voted Bertie in again. Honestly, what does it take to lose your seat?

LadyFenghuang

di11on wrote: »

They're not - it's the people that make them accountable. We're just soft and bend over and take it every time.

Honestly, you lot voted Bertie in again. Honestly, what does it take to lose your seat?

Who do we have as an alternative currently? I agree with you completely. The conflict of interests between our politicians and regulatory bodies is clear always has been it's what has led to the Denis O' Brien scandals too.

Really the only alternative is independents. And that would make for weak govt.

LadyFenghuang

Iceland is only now starting to lift the crisis controls from 2008 by the way. It's not REALLY doing that great.

di11on

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

Who do we have as an alternative currently? I agree with you completely. The conflict of interests between our politicians and regulatory bodies is clear always has been it's what has led to the Denis O' Brien scandals too.

Really the only alternative is independents. And that would make for weak govt.

The people can be politicians too. What's really needed is a good leader with a good vision that people can buy into. A new vision for Ireland - a modern vision with no civil war identity. And give it a bloody English name!

di11on

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

Iceland is only now starting to lift the crisis controls from 2008 by the way. It's not REALLY doing that great.

At least they got some justice - there's value in that. And at least they're starting afresh. We just took out a 3 generation mortgage from our German uncle to pay our German uncle.

Public_Enema

di11on wrote: »

They're not - it's the people that make them accountable. We're just soft and bend over and take it every time.

They're not untouchable? If you think that and if you think the Irish political system has the integrity to deal with it. You're either naive or deluded.

Ranchu

They have their own currency. The euro is an increasingly unfunny joke.

astrofool

Ranchu wrote: »

They have their own currency. The euro is an increasingly unfunny joke.

It's fairly easy to come back if you half everyone's wealth and collapse the economy overnight.

To do the same here would have required halving all social welfare and pension payments, as well as letting the banks go bang, so the pensioners get a double whammy of half their usual state pensions, plus a private pension worth nothing.

The euro meant we pretty much kept our wealth.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

AlphaRed wrote: »

They burned the bond holders

At least 95% of the general public have no idea what a bond holder actually is.

At least 99% of the section of general public who advocate "burning bondholders" have no idea what a bond holder is.

TallGlass

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

Iceland is only now starting to lift the crisis controls from 2008 by the way. It's not REALLY doing that great.

And have we even lifted ours?

The government of Ireland are untouchable and can do and will do what ever they want.

jimgoose

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly wrote: »

At least 95% of the general public have no idea what a bond holder actually is.

At least 99% of the section of general public who advocate "burning bondholders" have no idea what a bond holder is.

Tuk errr Bonds!

di11on

Public_Enema wrote: »

They're not untouchable? If you think that and if you think the Irish political system has the integrity to deal with it. You're either naive or deluded.

I'm saying you and I need to bring them to account. You can't hang on to excuses like "what choice have I got" forever. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

The water charges protest is the closest we've ever got to exerting influence. It is possible. People just don't get excited enough.

When you say they are untouchable, what aspects of the Irish political system are different which prevent the type of accountability you believe there to be in other systems?

Forest Demon

Iceland took the correct path morally and financially.

denhaagenite

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

maybe you should move there if its such a great place then OP...
they even have gay marriage, one of your favorite topics.

There aren't enough "rolls eyes" in the world for this.

Forest Demon

di11on wrote: »

When you say they are untouchable, what aspects of the Irish political system are different which prevent the type of accountability you believe there to be in other systems?

It goes beyond the political system. The power is with the unelected senior pubic servants, pubic sector unions, bankers and media (including our national broadcaster). Politians are not held accountable because there was never real austerity for any of the above. They are sitting pretty, discussing pay restoration and awaiting their pensions. It Ireland had real austerity then the streets would have run red and the Irish would have revolted. Just look at the teachers unions recently and they are the hightest paid in the world. Think of what would have happened with a 50% pay cut and a new pension deal. Think what would have happened with a 50% cut in social welfare. We are not that tame in Ireland.

For all of Ireland's gloating all they did was borrow more money on the backs of this and future generations. Well done Iceland and even if there is a short term sh1testorm in Greece if they default, In the long run they will be in a better position then Ireland so well done to them too. Fuc being blackmailed into taking on the debts of others! and damn the consequences. A lot of people have nothing to lose as it is.

Deathwish4

"Pub Grub" range must have taken off

Son Of A Vidic

di11on wrote: »

They're not - it's the people that make them accountable. We're just soft and bend over and take it every time.

It has nothing to do with people being soft and everything to do with a corrupt political system. We have basically two versions of gombeens that run this country and cronyism & nepotism is rife. Of course people shouldn't vote for these clowns, but the calibre of candidate entering politics leaves a lot to be desired.

di11on wrote: »

Honestly, you lot voted Bertie in again. Honestly, what does it take to lose your seat?

You lot? Thankfully, I wasn't even living in Ireland when people were voting in Bertie. But when I returned in the noughties, I was nearly beheaded for saying I thought Ireland had lost the run of itself and was a paper tiger not based on a tangible reality. So perhaps an element of I'm alright Jackism lies at the root of our problem in Irish politics. Perhaps people fail to see the bigger picture and don't want to upset the status quo if their own lot is grand.

mariaalice

There are all sorts of social and cultural reason why what they did in Iceland worked for them and would not work for us.

Of the..... its always better somewhere else countries Iceland is a new one to add to the list;)

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

1) Burn the bondholders (because Ive no idea what a bondholder is)
2) Let the banks fail (because that worked so well in the 1930's)
3) ?
4) PROFIT !

RecordStraight

I always get my economic facts and political stories from Putin's Propaganda telly. You know it makes sense.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly wrote: »

Let the banks fail (because that worked so well in the 1930's)

The liquidation of Anglo is one of the current Government's proudest achievements. Banks fail on a regular basis in the USA and Denmark. I think something like 150 banks have failed in Denmark since 2008. And boy, do they burn their investors.

I think you need to acquaint yourself with some of the information you seem to accuse others of lacking.

mynamejeff

its not true

the same political party that screwed the country during their boom years are back in power.

a few were thrown to the wolves which is fair enough and more than we got,

it would be akin to us voting bertie back in

they are nut deep in debt and still spending money like its not costing them

its like they all decided en mass to ignore the problem in the hope that it will all go away

Saipanne

astrofool wrote: »

It's fairly easy to come back if you half everyone's wealth and collapse the economy overnight.

To do the same here would have required halving all social welfare and pension payments, as well as letting the banks go bang, so the pensioners get a double whammy of half their usual state pensions, plus a private pension worth nothing.

The euro meant we pretty much kept our wealth.

Stop spouting facts. You'll disturb the mob.

Amirani

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The liquidation of Anglo is one of the current Government's proudest achievements. Banks fail on a regular basis in the USA and Denmark. I think something like 150 banks have failed in Denmark since 2008. And boy, do they burn their investors.

I think you need to acquaint yourself with some of the information you seem to accuse others of lacking.

Systemically important banks don't fail on a regular basis. I'd like to see the source of your 150 Danish bank failures if you wouldn't mind...

RecordStraight

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think something like 150 banks have failed in Denmark since 2008. And boy, do they burn their investors.

There were only about 100 banks in Denmark in 2012, and at that time 3 of them were under scrutiny from the regulator in case they were insolvent, so that's some going...

mynamejeff

mynamejeff wrote: »

they are nut deep in debt and still spending money like its not costing them

its like they all decided en mass to ignore the problem in the hope that it will all go away

Iceland's government debt:GDP is lower than the Eurozone average, and lower than Ireland's.

It also has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe. It is repaying its IMF and Nordic loans ahead of schedule.

It's possible to assert that Iceland did the right thing without believing that Ireland could have replicated it.

Diego Simeone

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Systemically important banks don't fail on a regular basis. I'd like to see the source of your 150 Danish bank failures if you wouldn't mind...

That should have said "Denmark and the USA", which were the two countries I had earlier mentioned. "Only" a dozen failed in Denmark, and were effectively liquidated. In 2010 alone, about 150 banks failed in the USA with non-depositor investors burned. 

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/068877d0-3a1a-11e2-baac-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F068877d0-3a1a-11e2-baac-00144feabdc0.html%3Fsiteedition%3Dintl&siteedition=intl&_i_referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ie%2F#axzz3d9OL76u5
https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/speeches/archives/2013/spmay1513.html

So in fact the figure is much higher.

We don't need to go back to the 1930s at all.

Latest figures I can see are 103% debt/GDP for Ireland and 96.4% for Iceland. Not a huge difference really. Also Iceland's issue was purely banking related, they have the same underlying economic strengths now as they had before. While letting it all go was likely the right thing for them to do it hasn't exactly been painless.

Graham

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In 2010 alone, about 150 banks failed in the USA with non-depositor investors burned.

It would be interesting to see the scale of those 150 banks. On the surface all you need to open a bank in the US is an empty Taco Bell store and an ATM.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the scale of those 150 banks. On the surface all you need to open a bank in the US is an empty Taco Bell store and an ATM.

Of course. I'm not claiming that Ireland could afford to close all the banks overnight. I'm simply rebutting the notion that you cannot burn bondholders, that you cannot let banks fail. You obviously can do so, even where those banks are of systemic importance, and recover.

Iceland's recovery is quite terrific, is it not? As long as their Government don't do anything foolish at this stage, I would say Iceland has handled it like a boss.

Deleted User wrote: »

Latest figures I can see are 103% debt/GDP for Ireland and 96.4% for Iceland. Not a huge difference really.

That's the 2010 figure.

Government debt:GDP in Iceland is 86%. The figure for the equivalent period in Ireland is 109%, a difference of 23%.

The economy is growing at 2.25%, and their unemployment rate at 4.5% (about half the Irish rate)

SpaceTime

I've been in Iceland. It's doing well until you consider they've lost about 50% of their spending power and had to impose capital controls for years.

Many people also have Euro denominated loans and mortgages which effectively doubled in size as they're playing in ISK.

It's a tiny population, 200,000 more people live in County Cork and emigration has played a big factor. Lots of them left for Norway. The population is so small you'd hardly notice them in Norway even though it's a huge % of them.

In general Iceland took a pretty serious whack in terms of income and standards of living. The cushion is that it was coming from a very high base. That's partially been the cushion in Ireland too,

There are aspects of it actually look poor for the first time in many decades. I was a bit surprised tbh. Plenty of people shopping in Bonus which is a grimmer Icelandic equivalent of Aldi and pretty dramatic changes in how people consume goods.

Also their idea of jail for bankers is better than many 4 star hotels in most countries and they're in on a "trust" system. It's a vague punishment by slight humiliation by being there.

Many Icelandic bankers fled to nice tax havens with better weather.

There were pretty nasty protests up there and quite harsh police responses too. It wasn't all just people banging saucepans and the parliament dissolving.

You're very much presented with this lovely island full of volcanoes, elves and Bjork as an image. There was a lot more to it than that.

There is a lot of nonsense talked about Iceland. Yeah it's recovering but a lot of the stuff you hear needs to be read with a very large pinch of salt.

RecordStraight

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That should have said "Denmark and the USA", which were the two countries I had earlier mentioned. "Only" a dozen failed in Denmark, and were effectively liquidated. In 2010 alone, about 150 banks failed in the USA with non-depositor investors burned. 

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/068877d0-3a1a-11e2-baac-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F068877d0-3a1a-11e2-baac-00144feabdc0.html%3Fsiteedition%3Dintl&siteedition=intl&_i_referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ie%2F#axzz3d9OL76u5
https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/speeches/archives/2013/spmay1513.html

So in fact the figure is much higher.

We don't need to go back to the 1930s at all.

Just to put that in context, after another 4 years of bank failures, there are still nearly 7000 banks in the US. Most 'banks' in Ireland are brass plates in the IFSC, or parts of international bank groups, so proportionately we are probably right up there with the US in terms of bank failures - and probably ahead if you include Irish Permanent which was folded into Anglo before being let go.

calanus

I've been living here for the last 2 1/2 years and I can say that it is most definitely not 100% true and a load of bollocks.

Spacetime covered most of it all already. They have only recently decided to life the capital controls but this may not actually happen for a few months yet.

Graham

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Iceland's recovery is quite terrific, is it not?

Many in Iceland would apparently not agree with your rosey tinted appraisal:

Away from banks' boardrooms and ministers' meeting rooms, distrust of the government remains and a culture of protest has grown. The collapse was so sudden, so shocking and its impact felt so widely that many still feel betrayed.

The suspicion is reflected in the sudden rise of the Pirate Party, now the most popular political force in Iceland espousing roots-level democracy and transparency.

Cafe owner Vilhjalmsson said he had no faith that the authorities would manage Iceland's financial rehabilitation any better than they managed its catastrophic boom.

"I have no trust in those people or the forces behind them. They are demagogues and are, in my opinion, the corrupted."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/02/us-iceland-economy-insight-idUSKBN0MT0WE20150402

RobbingBandit

God and das Germans sent a volcano their way though. Lava be more trouble than being poor.

RecordStraight

calanus wrote: »

I've been living here for the last 2 1/2 years and I can say that it is most definitely not 100% true and a load of bollocks.

Spacetime covered most of it all already. They have only recently decided to life the capital controls but this may not actually happen for a few months yet.

So the story from Putin's propaganda machine is not 100% accurate? I'm shocked.

Riverireland

AlphaRed wrote: »

They burned the bond holders
Let the banks fail
No austerity measures
Jailed executives who were responsible

This is only a short clip below but apparently they did not go through the suffering everywhere else had to go through and today their economy is doing better than ever.

Not surprised at all. What happened here is a catistrofic mistake on every level, except for the very few who were complicit in causing the problems. Greece seem to be sticking to their guns, fair play to them. There are times in life when you have tonay hard ball.

Sh1tbag OToole

Mighty country, I'm only just back from there. Friendly folks, beautiful landscape, nice and sparsely populated, no clampers, no Fine Gael. I'd be tempted to move, Icelandic is a hard language to learn though

dlouth15

SpaceTime wrote: »

I've been in Iceland. It's doing well until you consider they've lost about 50% of their spending power

How so? Their GDP per capita is pretty much what it was a couple of years before the crash. They haven't recovered to the peak in 2008 but that was artificially high due to their bloated banking sector.

Godge

astrofool wrote: »

It's fairly easy to come back if you half everyone's wealth and collapse the economy overnight.

To do the same here would have required halving all social welfare and pension payments, as well as letting the banks go bang, so the pensioners get a double whammy of half their usual state pensions, plus a private pension worth nothing.

The euro meant we pretty much kept our wealth.

You hit the nail on the head. You won't see many Icelandic tourists in Dublin or anywhere else because they can't afford to travel abroad unless they emigrate.

TallGlass wrote: »

And have we even lifted ours?

The government of Ireland are untouchable and can do and will do what ever they want.

Eh, WE never imposed capital controls, so we have nothing to lift.

The level of ignorant praise of Iceland is incredible.

murpho999

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Mighty country, I'm only just back from there. Friendly folks, beautiful landscape, nice and sparsely populated, no clampers, no Fine Gael. I'd be tempted to move, Icelandic is a hard language to learn though

Ah yes, a holiday is always a great way to judge a country as to how it would be to live there whilst having no idea of the culture, society, government etc.

Truth is life in Ireland,is not all that bad and we also have nice scenery and are sparely populated and if you go away you'll miss family and friends

Clamping is also easily avoided by not parking illegally.

keith16

SpaceTime wrote: »

You're very much presented with this lovely island full of volcanoes, elves and Bjork as an image. There was a lot more to it than that.

They have Sigur Rós too. Who are better than the Frames.

Many, many times better.