Top London employers discriminate agains't working class people

Rough Sleeper

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm doomed
Can I order a cocktail instead

Only if you're wearing a cashmere sweater during the Ides of March.

Rough Sleeper

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

Only if you're wearing a cashmere sweater during the IdeS OF March.

How about this?

http://www.thatisnewtome.com/2010/08/whisky-made-from-diabetics-pee.html

On second thoughts ... one glass ceiling pls!

Kermit.de.frog

People judge, that's just the way things are. No news here tbh.

Permabear

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LadyFenghuang

My cousin worked at a top firm in the UK as an accountant. Obviously he is Irish I don't whether they can place accents or not over there. He has a degree in accounting and the CPA and ACCA he was treated well by the firm. He is from Balrothery Tallaght. Quite a working class background. I have no idea if outsider status helped him as he was not easy to stereotype beyond being 'Irish'.

He returned here a couple of years ago. I won't where he works for it's very well known.

He felt he was treated better by the company in the UK than here but I have a feeling that is just the companies involved.

My Dad also came from a very working class background, from Oliver Bond he would say he feels judged on it sometimes perhaps in the past more so. He has a PHD from Trinity. He would say a lot of people judge. But I mean he has done amazingly.

To systematically exclude people like that is just totally wrong. There is prejudice and judgement. Then there i wise judgement and shallow judgement. This is just prejudice.

I'm sure inverse snobbery exists socially too.
I would imagine it's more about certain school ties in the UK.

steddyeddy

Roquentin wrote: »

i think his social polish is being taken out of context. i think hes talking about these little things that one must learn that make the difference. it all adds up to give ones projection to society.

for instance i remember when working in a hotel i was told to keep my head up and my hands out of my pockets. for that kind of job you need certain mannerisms.

I think you and a few others are sort of missing the point of the thread. I completely agree mannerisms are important in a job. I agree the mannerisms are important and each job will have different mannerisms.

That's not up for debate. What people are missing is that the article didn't find that people with bad mannerisms aren't hired. It found that working class people aren't hired.

A few people then posted something along the lines of "ah you see though companies want people who know how to behave, conduct themselves in public or carry themselves".

If you can't see how that statement in itself is indicative of a bigoted attitude to people born in less well off circumstances I give up.

The report says "working class people are discriminated against". The reply here is "certain firms want certain mannerisms." Way to stereotype.

In a similar vein the Nobel Laurette Tim Hunt recently described women as being hopeless in the labs. A similar reply to the ones given in relation to the working class would be "ah well scientists are looking for certain mannerisms e.g not crying in labs ect."

Roquentin

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think you and a few others are sort of missing the point of the thread. I completely agree mannerisms are important in a job. I agree the mannerisms are important and each job will have different mannerisms.

That's not up for debate. What people are missing is that the article didn't find that people with bad mannerisms aren't hired. It found that working class people aren't hired.

A few people then posted something along the lines of "ah you see though companies want people who know how to behave, conduct themselves in public or carry themselves".

If you can't see how that statement in itself is indicative of a bigoted attitude to people born in less well off circumstances I give up.

The report says "working class people are discriminated against". The reply here is "certain firms want certain mannerisms." Way to stereotype.

In a similar vein the Nobel Laurette Tim Hunt recently described women as being hopeless in the labs. A similar reply to the ones given in relation to the working class would be "ah well scientists are looking for certain mannerisms e.g not crying in labs ect."

you are taking it out of context and using it to fuel your own dogma.

steddyeddy

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People judge, that's just the way things are. No news here tbh.

Oh yea people judge but is it acceptable? Tim hunt judged women as inferior in the lab. Watson also judged women as inferior and claimed he would never hire a fat person and blacks are inferior employees. You cannot hire and fire people by some lazy stereotype. It's not news but it's not acceptable.

LadyFenghuang

Sometimes I wonder though if my Dad's feeling about being judged is about FEELING judged. I mean he did amazing for us ! He made our lives ten times better than his. We can never repay him!

steddyeddy

Roquentin wrote: »

you are taking it out of context and using it to fuel your own dogma.

I'm actually not. It's black and white so to speak. Why bring up mannerisms at all? Did the article mention that the applicants weren't displaying the right mannerisms?

LadyFenghuang

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm doomed
Can I order a cocktail instead

No you're golden. Ain't nothing stopping your ambitions!

I'm both in awe and intimidated.

Roquentin

steddyeddy wrote: »

Oh yea people judge but is it acceptable? Tim hunt judged women as inferior in the lab. Watson also judged women as inferior and claimed he would never hire a fat person and blacks are inferior employees. You cannot hire and fire people by some lazy stereotype. It's not news but it's not acceptable.

i agree its not acceptable. i agree its discriminatory. i am trying to impart why it happens from a psychological point of view. people are prejudice. we see it every day in the dating game when men want to choose women and women want to choose men. in an ideal world people wouldnt be so prejudice, but they are because they are human.

people dont just choose any john or jane. they scrutinize for particular traits and requirements and make a decision to either accept or reject that person. now apply that to this process. people are human all too human and they make interpretations about whom they see

osarusan

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Gis 2 cans of the Fiano dere bud.

steddyeddy

Roquentin wrote: »

i agree its not acceptable. i agree its discriminatory. i am trying to impart why it happens from a psychological point of view. people are prejudice. we see it every day in the dating game when men want to choose women and women want to choose men. in an ideal world people wouldnt be so prejudice, but they are because they are human.

people dont just choose any john or jane. they scrutinize for particular traits and requirements and make a decision to either accept or reject that person. now apply that to this process. people are human all too human and they make interpretations about whom they see

I agree humans operate by prejudice but why bring mannerisms into it? By doing so you're re-enforcing the prejudice.

Roquentin

steddyeddy wrote: »

I agree humans operate by prejudice but why bring mannerisms into it? By doing so you're re-enforcing the prejudice.

you win you win. i bow before your presence

steddyeddy

Roquentin wrote: »

you win you win. i bow before your presence

I wasn't pointing out you in particular. I just think that these mannerisms are not exclusive to a certain income level.

Thephantomsmask

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

Hope you're ready to hit the glass ceiling when you don't know what vintage one should order along with pan-fried hake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8S3WduxpZ0

steddyeddy

On a slightly different note I think we've left the age were intelligence and knowledge is the ultimate virtue . We've entered an age where vulgar measures of breeding are held as a standard.

PARlance

steddyeddy wrote: »

On a slightly different note I think we've left the age were intelligence and knowledge is the ultimate virtue . We've entered an age where vulgar measures of breeding are held as a standard.

When was this great age you speak off?

steddyeddy

PARlance wrote: »

When was this great age you speak off?

I think it's more of a sector than an age really. Throughout science people from extreme poverty have changed the way we looked at the world. It's sad to see another sector putting intelligence second to parental wealth.

hatrickpatrick

seamus wrote: »

In Ireland we don't really have a class system. An interviewer will very much judge you based on how you speak and conduct yourself in an interview. Your name could be Fionn and you grew up in Foxrock, but if you sound like one of the Dubliners, then you're going to drop a few notches in the rankings.
Yes, but my point is most people will link a certain kind of behaviour with a certain kind of person. And if your conduct in an interview makes you appear to be this "kind" of person, then it will be assumed that's the kind of person you are. And one of the big things which cause people to judge the kind of person you are, is going to be your accent.

I love the way the first sentence of your above post states that "in Ireland we don't really have a class system", and then the rest of the paragraph immediately following it, outlines exactly how endemic Ireland's class system actually is. :rolleyes:

Greenmachine

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

people like you describe there are an embarrassment to the working class

it takes a hell of a lot of effort to get out of a rough area,to ignore the carry on around you and get a decent education

employers should remember this

True that. A lad I was on a course with year ago, was from a rough spot. Ended up going to Trinity and completing his degree. A lot of his school friend have their junior cert if they are lucky.

hatrickpatrick

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Nobody is saying that it's acceptable. We're just being realistic and it's utterly ludicrous to suggest that those of us living in the real world are closet racist sexists who discriminate against the disabled.:rolleyes:

The inflammatory language used in earlier posts suggests at least tacit approval. Phrases like "If you have a heavy accent that sounds like you're from the Gardiner Street flats" or "sound like one of the Dubliners" suggests that it's legitimate to look down on people who come from disadvantaged areas - that it's ok to regard someone as having something wrong with them, or being a lesser quality candidate, because of this.
To put it another way, so f*cking what if someone is from the Gardiner St flats? If they're the most qualified and suitable candidate for the job, they should get it. Language like this makes it sound as if discrimination based on living in a rough area is ok, and by extension that tarring large swathes of the population with the same brush is also ok.

Kermit.de.frog

steddyeddy wrote: »

You cannot hire and fire people by some lazy stereotype. It's not news but it's not acceptable.

In a fantasy world maybe. Human nature means this happens all day everyday and no words are going to change it. It's just the way people are - they judge, rightly or wrongly.

And to be perfectly honest if you don't want to be judged in a negative light than don't act that way or in a way that is more likely to result in you being judged negatively.

Cold War Kid

There's a class system all right in Ireland - I don't know why people say there isn't. But it is *nothing* like the class system in the south of England. And just the south of England too - things are not like that throughout the rest of Britain.

hatrickpatrick

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In a fantasy world maybe. Human nature means this happens all day everyday and no words are going to change it. It's just the way people are - they judge, rightly or wrongly.

We're not saying it doesn't happen, we're saying that it does and that when it can be proven, people responsible should be fired. That might change it a bit, if you know you'll get fired for behaving unethically. Same as anything else, really. Human nature can be suppressed by fear of consequences.

Greenmachine

Something I have seen more and more is job descriptions that say must live locally. I wonder if they just want someone who will come in at the drop of a hat, or if their motivation is similar. The three I saw with this statement today were all in D.4. but can't say if that is the case, when I have seen it as a requirement before. Seems that is a dodgy requirement to me.

steddyeddy

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In a fantasy world maybe. Human nature means this happens all day everyday and no words are going to change it. It's just the way people are - they judge, rightly or wrongly.

And to be perfectly honest if you don't want to be judged in a negative light than don't act that way or in a way that is more likely to result in you being judged negatively.

Women shouldn't cry in the labs either I suppose :rolleyes:

PARlance

steddyeddy wrote: »

Women shouldn't cry in the labs either I suppose :rolleyes:

You're getting some mileage from Tim Hunt.

steddyeddy

PARlance wrote: »

You're getting some mileage from Tim Hunt.

I can switch to Watson if you like?

hatrickpatrick

What I find so ironic about these debates is that a lot of the same people who justify discrimination against people from, say, council flats, will then complain about said council flats being full of "dole scroungers" in other threads.

It reminds me of a story my dad once told me, of a group of lads at a "stop the cell tower being built next to our town" rally complaining that they couldn't keep updated about the campaign in the building they were meeting in, because the reception was so sh!te :pac:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That's true. Ironically one of the reasons Jews were hated is they practiced usury. One of the reasons they could do that is because they were deemed damned enough to be allowed to do it.

LadyFenghuang

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What I find so ironic about these debates is that a lot of the same people who justify discrimination against people from, say, council flats, will then complain about said council flats being full of "dole scroungers" in other threads.

It reminds me of a story my dad once told me, of a group of lads at a "stop the cell tower being built next to our town" rally complaining that they couldn't keep updated about the campaign in the building they were meeting in, because the reception was so sh!te :pac:

My Dad grew up in a council flat. There is nothing wrong with people who grew up in council flats. People need somewhere to live.They pay their rent.

My Dad educated himself was the first to finish school and to to uni. I saw him graduate as an adult.

AMAZING people have come from council estates.

I am starting to think some people are simply intimidated by that fact.

He managed to give us a different life.

hatrickpatrick

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

My Dad grew up in a council flat. There is nothing wrong with people who grew up in council flats. People need somewhere to live.They pay their rent.

My Dad educated himself was the first to finish school and to to uni. I saw him graduate as an adult.

AMAZING people have come from council estates.

I am starting to think some people are simply intimidated by that fact.

He managed to give us a different life.

+1.

I never used to think about this much until I started hanging around in Dublin's liberties when a lot of my friends moved to student gaffs around there. The number of warnings I got from relatives never to walk alone at night in Dolphin's Barn and to never set foot anywhere near the Cork St end of Donore Avenue (one of my friends lived on Eugene St and I casually mentioned that I was heading to his for a party) was insane, and I subsequently discovered that all of the roads I was being advised to stay away from were the entrances to council estates (in this case, Dolphin House and Teresa's Gardens respectively). It absolutely fascinates me - I never realised until quite recently that Dublin had some areas semi-hidden in otherwise city-centre locations which were regarded as "no-go" areas.

I get that you do get some scumbags in those areas like most areas of cities, but the amount of hysteria I'd encounter when casually mentioning that I'd taken a shortcut through Dolphin House to get to the Luas (for example) was ridiculous. You'd swear these places were open prisons rather than residential complexes the way some people talk about them, and then you wander through and the worst you find is the very occasional group of teenagers with heavy accents shouting at eachother.

It makes me really sad to be honest. I don't fully understand how some stop viewing others as actual human beings just because they're from a run-down area, but it's pretty plain to see when you wander around some of them that the construction boom we had for ten years never even touched some of these places. Dolphin House is like a parallel universe, you walk past all these modern, newly renovated houses on Cork St and the South Circular road, take one left turn and suddenly you're looking at a bunch of buildings which look like they haven't so much as been repainted in the last 50 years.

And then people claim we don't have a class system in Ireland?

The idea of a person having to lie about where they're from or disguise their accent because there's some kind of shame attached to their family coming from one of these estates is pretty revolting. It's essentially saying that if you come from a disadvantaged neighbourhood, the price of success is giving up your identity and pretending to be someone you're not. F*ck that. Nobody should be told they're not allowed to be proud of who they are or what geographical area they grew up in.

LadyFenghuang

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

+1.



It makes me really sad to be honest. I don't fully understand how some stop viewing others as actual human beings just because they're from a run-down area, but it's pretty plain to see when you wander around some of them that the construction boom we had for ten years never even touched some of these places. Dolphin House is like a parallel universe, you walk past all these modern, newly renovated houses on Cork St and the South Circular road, take one left turn and suddenly you're looking at a bunch of buildings which look like they haven't so much as been repainted in the last 50 years.

And then people claim we don't have a class system in Ireland?

The idea of a person having to lie about where they're from or disguise their accent because there's some kind of shame attached to their family coming from one of these estates is pretty revolting. It's essentially saying that if you come from a disadvantaged neighbourhood, the price of success is giving up your identity and pretending to be someone you're not. F*ck that. Nobody should be told they're not allowed to be proud of who they are or what geographical area they grew up in.

Ok in fairness fess up time.

When I was four we had no car my mother was walking with me and was nine months preggers. We were visiting my nana in Oliver bond.A guy some scumbag knicked her purse. Toddler in tow ..heavily pregnant. It turned out in some weird creeped out way. My Dad had actually gone to school with the guy. I know it's weird.

When we got a car my Dad felt ok to park it around Oliver Bond.... As he did better he got a very VERY nice car...he didn't park that one around Oliver Bond.

But if you had said to my dad ...'I didn't park my car around Oliver Bond' and you were not from Oliver Bond he would have been hurt ...or pissed off.


It's a generational think too. It was worse years ago. People were more judgmental then about class.
90% of the people are fine people. It's the ten percent.

It was a tough area. I'm glad I didn't grow up around there. But I have full respect for anyone who did and no judgement about where they came from.

Where you are born ...pure LUCK

I hit the family jackpot!

steddyeddy

Ah guys would you stop. It's the last bastion of discrimination. I grew up in a rough estate. I loved physics, maths and chemistry from a young age and wrote down notes on all sorts of theories I had. I got all the support from people in my estate who thought it was fantastic.

I paid my way through college, paying for my own rent with a job ect. People just don't acknowledge how much harder it is to come through college coming from a sub-par school and having to pay for everything via one or two jobs.

I heard stuff like "working class people don't go to college ect". A few decades ago you would have heard the same thing said about women and people of different race.

On this thread you have victim blaming going on. The thread started with the news that some firms discriminate against working class people. What was the first few responses? "If you walk in like a junkie that will affect your chances". About twenty people thanked that post. Some of the people who thanked that post complained in the Tim Hunt thread that he was being discriminatory. It will be a long time taken them seriously again.

Just to remind people of one of the lines in the article.

One employer suggested firms were unwilling to sift through applications from those of working-class backgrounds. “Is there a diamond in the rough out there?” the unnamed recruiter told researchers. “Statistically it’s highly probable but the question is … how much mud do I have to sift through in that population to find that diamond?”

They don't even get to the interview. So out goes the saunter into the interview like a junkie hypothesis. The same thing happened to women in science in the past. I suppose it was their fault too right?

It's simply a matter of this:

He added: “Inevitably that ends up excluding youngsters who have the right sort of grades and abilities but whose parents do not have the right sort of bank balances.”

I believe you get rewarded for what you do. Not what your parents do. That to me is anti competition.

steddyeddy

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

Ok in fairness fess up time.

When I was four we had no car my mother was walking with me and was nine months preggers. We were visiting my nana in Oliver bond.A guy some scumbag knicked her purse. Toddler in tow ..heavily pregnant. It turned out in some weird creeped out way. My Dad had actually gone to school with the guy. I know it's weird.

When we got a car my Dad felt ok to park it around Oliver Bond.... As he did better he got a very VERY nice car...he didn't park that one around Oliver Bond.

But if you had said to my dad ...'I didn't park my car around Oliver Bond' and you were not from Oliver Bond he would have been hurt ...or pissed off.


It's a generational think too. It was worse years ago. People were more judgmental then about class.
90% of the people are fine people. It's the ten percent.

It was a tough area. I'm glad I didn't grow up around there. But I have full respect for anyone who did and no judgement about where they came from.

Where you are born ...pure LUCK

I hit the family jackpot!

I don't get that lady. I couldn't look at the names of people on a page and say they come from such and such a place so they must be that sort of person. I had friends rich and poor in college and not one of them matched the stereotype of where they came from. A junkie from Darndale or a thick rugger bugger from Foxrock. These stereotypes really don't exist in college.

steddyeddy

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In a fantasy world maybe. Human nature means this happens all day everyday and no words are going to change it. It's just the way people are - they judge, rightly or wrongly.

And to be perfectly honest if you don't want to be judged in a negative light than don't act that way or in a way that is more likely to result in you being judged negatively.

Yea. I think another reading of the article is in order mate. They don't even read the applications. This is based on their circumstances of birth not their actions. Way to misunderstand the point of discrimination.

One employer suggested firms were unwilling to sift through applications from those of working-class backgrounds. “Is there a diamond in the rough out there?” the unnamed recruiter told researchers. “Statistically it’s highly probable but the question is … how much mud do I have to sift through in that population to find that diamond?”

LadyFenghuang

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't get that lady. I couldn't look at the names of people on a page and say they come from such and such a place so they must be that sort of person. I had friends rich and poor in college and not one of them matched the stereotype of where they came from. A junkie from Darndale or a thick rugger bugger from Foxrock. These stereotypes really don't exist in college.

That's true. College etc is it's own standard bearer. Other enviroments are too. Music ...lots of different people ...they are there for music not for anything else. I like when different kinds of people mix it up. I take people as I find them. If you are nice to me I will be nice to you.

Simon2015

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ireland doesn't really have a class system

Of course Ireland has a class system.

Just look at these 2 characters.

LadyFenghuang

Simon2015 wrote: »

Of course Ireland has a class system.

Just look at these 2 characters.

They aren't real they are characters. And pretty two dimensional. I could reduce myself or anyone to a point of ridicule easily that way.
I could stereotype myself blonde scatty bleh bleh.

Simon2015

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

They aren't real they are characters. And pretty two dimensional. I could reduce myself or anyone to a point of ridicule easily that way.
I could stereotype myself blonde scatty bleh bleh.

Those characters are based on real people. Dublin city centre is full of Damos.

The idea that Ireland doesn't have a class system is ludicrous.

blinding

bluewolf wrote: »

I hate wine

I like wine but I am basically a Muck savage.

AdamD

People can be different without being a different 'class'.

Permabear

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FrStone

LadyFenghuang wrote: »

They aren't real they are characters. And pretty two dimensional. I could reduce myself or anyone to a point of ridicule easily that way.
I could stereotype myself blonde scatty bleh bleh.

Of course Ireland has a class system. It's just not as obvious as in the UK. In a lot of cases here though we have that reverse snobbery, where people claim to be working class when they are in fact middle class. Which is something I can't ever understand.

If you go back a few generations, there wasn't such a huge difference in the classes. However our parents and there parents worked dam hard to join the ranks of the upper classes. This leads to a sort of a scenario whereby the new middle and upper classes form a so called 'old boys' network.

It makes sense to look out for your own. I've got jobs for family and neighbours countless times. If I'm ever in a pickle they will do as much to help me out though. So a person hiring will end up choosing someone from a similar background as themselves. It isn't public money they are using, so I don't have a huge problem with it.

steddyeddy

FrStone wrote: »

Of course Ireland has a class system. It's just not as obvious as in the UK. In a lot of cases here though we have that reverse snobbery, where people claim to be working class when they are in fact middle class. Which is something I can't ever understand.

If you go back a few generations, there wasn't such a huge difference in the classes. However our parents and there parents worked dam hard to join the ranks of the upper classes. This leads to a sort of a scenario whereby the new middle and upper classes form a so called 'old boys' network.

It makes sense to look out for your own. I've got jobs for family and neighbours countless times. If I'm ever in a pickle they will do as much to help me out though. So a person hiring will end up choosing someone from a similar background as themselves. It isn't public money they are using, so I don't have a huge problem with it.

Actually I think you have zero respect for how hard your ancestors worked to get you here. Based on the system you're defending their C.V wouldn't get a look in despite how hard they worked.

You see that's the problem I have. Hard work means nothing. The same grades mean nothing. Discrimination based on the location of one's birth.

FrStone

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually I think you have zero respect for how hard your ancestors worked to get you here. Based on the system you're defending their C.V wouldn't get a look in despite how hard they worked.

You see that's the problem I have. Hard work means nothing. The same grades mean nothing. Discrimination based on the location of one's birth.

Well my ancestors had to be one step ahead of the possy, they went to university when very few others did. Now going to university isn't enough as every Tom , Dick and Harry end up in University. You have always needed to be exceptional to move up a social class.

There isn't much hard work nowadays in going to University, sure getting a 1.1 degree is quite easy. That's the reason in the legal firm I hire for, we only call those with a 1.1 from a university to interview. They all have to have a minimum 500 points in the leaving cert. However we still have huge numbers of applicants with this criteria. It's a very important part of the job to be able to comfortably chat with high net worth individuals. So as part of the interview process, we bring them out for dinner, it let's you tell who will order cider and who will order a good wine. We try not to have a huge difference between the type of client we have and our staff as it makes clients happier.

mariaalice

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The internet is a factor and culture in general apparently the film Wall street far from putting people off it acutely cause a surge in interest in careers in wall street, hard as it might be for some people to grasp high end finance, law, and accounting accounts for tiny negligible amount of employment in the UK or Ireland or the world of work and careers in general. There are millions of job and careers that couldn't care less about you background the employers are only interested in your qualification and experience and even more amazing you can have a career you enjoy, make money and enjoy you life with out working in finance, law and accounting.