Top London employers discriminate agains't working class people

steddyeddy

FrStone wrote: »

Well my ancestors had to be one step ahead of the possy, they went to university when very few others did. Now going to university isn't enough as every Tom , Dick and Harry end up in University. You have always needed to be exceptional to move up a social class.

There isn't much hard work nowadays in going to University, sure getting a 1.1 degree is quite easy. That's the reason in the legal firm I hire for, we only call those with a 1.1 from a university to interview. They all have to have a minimum 500 points in the leaving cert. However we still have huge numbers of applicants with this criteria. It's a very important part of the job to be able to comfortably chat with high net worth individuals. So as part of the interview process, we bring them out for dinner, it let's you tell who will order cider and who will order a good wine. We try not to have a huge difference between the type of client we have and our staff as it makes clients happier.

Actually If you go to college from a non traditional background you're stepping ahead of the possy.

I would find it extremely hard to trust someone who was employed based on who they know instead of hard work and intelligence.

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

The internet is a factor and culture in general apparently the film Wall street far from putting people off it acutely cause a surge in interest in careers in wall street, hard as it might be for some people to grasp high end finance, law, and accounting accounts for tiny negligible amount of employment in the UK or Ireland or the world of work and careers in general. There are millions of job and careers that couldn't care less about you background the employers are only interested in your qualification and experience and even more amazing you can have a career you enjoy, make money and enjoy you life with out working in finance, law and accounting.

Ah it's all snobbery tbh. I have heard the same thing directed against race, sex or whatever.

Permabear

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mariaalice

Permabear wrote: »

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But they are referenced too much as measure of social mobility or measures of success in general.

Why is social mobility seen as such a good thing anyway.

FrStone

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually If you go to college from a non traditional background you're stepping ahead of the possy.

I would find it extremely hard to trust someone who was employed based on who they know instead of hard work and intelligence.

The vast majority go onto third level. While you may be stepping ahead of the possy from your 'disadvantaged' area. You aren't stepping ahead of the vast majority of school leavers. When my ancestors went to university, they went when the vast majority of school leavers from any back ground did not go.

You may find it hard to trust someone, however I doubt those in my work place will ever be dealing with you in a professional capacity. Our clients prefer someone with social polish. All of staff have been quite successful in their studies.

ongarboy

Unfortunately I see this working class "glass ceiling" discrimination happening fairly often. A cousin of mine who worked for a big name investment bank in the City of London was given a task of reviewing CVs and was told in no uncertain terms to bin all CVs with applicants names that sounded ethnic no matter their educational and experience credentials. How much potential talent did the company lose using that discriminatory criteria?

When I first came to Dublin, I lived in Dublin 18 and my landlord told me when I was job hunting that my post code will be advantageous when recruiters were sifting through CVs. I was surprised when he told me. I'm not now.

I work in the funds industry and I've seen great employees with more working class backgrounds and accents but excellent at what they do, somehow getting overlooked for promotions while plebs and idiots who come from the more salubrious areas, went to the right schools, played rugby, members of the golf society etc getting the promotions as senior management could relate more to them on a personality level, preferred that they interact with the clients and generally seemed to be happy to compromise on such employees lack of competencies when it came to the actual work.

This type of discrimination in the professional occupations is often quite subliminal and hard to quantify or be able to present or claim tangible incidents of unfair treatment but it does really exist.

steddyeddy

FrStone wrote: »

The vast majority go onto third level. While you may be stepping ahead of the possy from your 'disadvantaged' area. You aren't stepping ahead of the vast majority of school leavers. When my ancestors went to university, they went when the vast majority of school leavers from any back ground did not go.

You may find it hard to trust someone, however I doubt those in my work place will ever be dealing with you in a professional capacity. Our clients prefer someone with social polish. All of staff have been quite successful in their studies.

You're saying people from disadvantaged backgrounds lack social polish or can not obtain social polish.

FrStone

steddyeddy wrote: »

You're saying people from disadvantaged backgrounds lack social polish or can not obtain social polish.

I'm not saying can't, but more don't.

They are less likely to play golf or rugby. They are less likely to be used to eating in high class restaurants. They are less likely to have connections with prospective clients. Those who have connections through their relatives, sporting endeavors and schools are very valuable to firms.

steddyeddy

ongarboy wrote: »

Unfortunately I see this working class "glass ceiling" discrimination happening fairly often. A cousin of mine who worked for a big name investment bank in the City of London was given a task of reviewing CVs and was told in no uncertain terms to bin all CVs with applicants names that sounded ethnic no matter their educational and experience credentials. How much potential talent did the company lose using that discriminatory criteria?

When I first came to Dublin, I lived in Dublin 18 and my landlord told me when I was job hunting that my post code will be advantageous when recruiters were sifting through CVs. I was surprised when he told me. I'm not now.

I work in the funds industry and I've seen great employees with more working class backgrounds and accents but excellent at what they do, somehow getting overlooked for promotions while plebs and idiots who come from the more salubrious areas, went to the right schools, played rugby, members of the golf society etc getting the promotions as senior management could relate more to them on a personality level, preferred that they interact with the clients and generally seemed to be happy to compromise on such employees lack of competencies when it came to the actual work.

This type of discrimination in the professional occupations is often quite subliminal and hard to quantify or be able to present or claim tangible incidents of unfair treatment but it does really exist.

It sounds like I'm in the right industry so. To be honest I'm having less and less respect for people from these industries. Wrong I know but it sounds like a lot of people aren't chosen because they're the best man for the job.

steddyeddy

FrStone wrote: »

I'm not saying can't, but more don't.

They are less likely to play golf or rugby. They are less likely to be used to eating in high class restaurants. They are less likely to have connections with prospective clients. Those who have connections through their relatives, sporting endeavors and schools are very valuable to firms.

If I meet someone who runs a pharmaceutical company or biotechnology company say like Craig Ventor. I know he is intelligent, hard working and innovative. You're painting people like yourselves as only being in the job because you know people. I'm loosing a lot of respect for finance to be honest.

Let's look at it from a similar point of view. James Watson didn't like hiring black employees because he felt they lacked intelligence and hadn't got a history of lab work. He's right on the latter point. Based on that and your philosophy you would be in the same boat. I.E to make a judgement about someone based on their background.

steddyeddy

FrStone wrote: »

The vast majority go onto third level. While you may be stepping ahead of the possy from your 'disadvantaged' area. You aren't stepping ahead of the vast majority of school leavers. When my ancestors went to university, they went when the vast majority of school leavers from any back ground did not go.

You may find it hard to trust someone, however I doubt those in my work place will ever be dealing with you in a professional capacity. Our clients prefer someone with social polish. All of staff have been quite successful in their studies.

Anyway Fr.Stone. I have met enough people in my line of work with discriminating views against race, gender or sex to know that there's no changing your mind on this. Particularly if you work in a job because you fit into approved race, gender ethnicity or socio economic status. So I'll leave the conversation there with you.

I welcome comments from people not defensive of discrimination. I'll leave you with the words of layer Glen Greenwald:

" “Incestuous, homogeneous fiefdoms of self-proclaimed expertise are always rank-closing and mutually self-defending, above all else.”

Permabear

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steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

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Indeed but the problem lies when people pick a skill set and assign exclusively to a particular group of people.

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

But they are referenced too much as measure of social mobility or measures of success in general.

Why is social mobility seen as such a good thing anyway.

I think biotechnology is better for social mobility to be honest.

Permabear

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Roquentin

Permabear wrote: »

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totally agree with this. the grades on your cv are not enough. one must possess good interpersonal skills also. at the end of the day your grades are pretty useless if you cant talk to a required standard.

i would also add to that they employers look for people who can handle stress as well. for some jobs there is a lot of uncertainty week to week or day to day and people have to be able to handle the stress of that and of dealing with people.

ive known guys in college who just couldnt handle the stress and start turning to the drink every night.

steddyeddy

Wait is there anyone here denying social skills are important? I had an argument with a colleague over the same thing. He said that women are less suited to science. When I tried to argue with him his defence was "you need a certain type of mind to do science".

People aren't denying you need certain skills for certain jobs. It becomes discrimination when you assume people haven't got those skills based on sex background or whatever.

steddyeddy

I'm using the women science analogy because that's one I have heard before tbh. I haven't heard the working class one.

osarusan

Permabear wrote: »

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The difference is that in this case, there is actually an interview.

We are talking about a scenario where CVs are being rejected before that stage.

Permabear wrote: »

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But before even the interview stage, decisions aren't being made based on appearance, dress sense, mannerisms etc. Decisions are being based on the perception that an applicant will or won't possess these attributes, based on little more than their address or the school they went to.


I get both sides of this argument - if these finance and law companies want somebody who can comfortably and skillfully schmooze with the wealthy individuals/companies they want as clients, then they should hire people best able to do that.

But it's all about a sterotype of people based on scant information from a CV in this case, rather than actually observing them in interviews.

steddyeddy

I think that's being missed again and again. Some of the mob attacking Tim Hunt having being thanking posts justifying this. It's the same thing here. Discrimination based on a perceived stereotype. Women in science is another example. Huge hypocrisy amongst posters here. Women aren't ok targets but someone born into poverty who put themselves through college is.

AdamD

Tbh I doubt the reasonably high achieving people going for these jobs would be lacking social skills based on where they're from. Seems a crazy assertion

Permabear

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steddyeddy

AdamD wrote: »

Tbh I doubt the reasonably high achieving people going for these jobs would be lacking social skills based on where they're from. Seems a crazy assertion

If you come from somewhere like Hammersmith and get into Cambridge you're more resourceful than someone whose parents paid for rent schooling tutors ect. It's a matter of snobbery.

steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

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Where you came from and your sex and both unalterable facts. C.Vs where binned in both science and finance. Both actions were fueled on the basis of a percieved set of traits arising from an unalterable fact. More great scientists were men. Based on that fact are we more likely to find a great scientist amongst men?

I know people can get rich from poverty. I'm trying myself.

Baron Kurtz

I wish they would discriminate in my workplace. Far too many howyas beltin' about the gaff doing what they like!:) Although they do confine them to a particular area, so that's refreshing. Hmm..

YFlyer

Roquentin wrote: »

i remember seeing a doc on tv3 about the lower class areas of limerick city and one guy said that if you had moyross in your address employers would throw your cv into the bin

I know a girl from Moyross who has a PhD in Chemistry from UL. She had no problem finding a job.

hatrickpatrick

Simon2015 wrote: »

Of course Ireland has a class system.

Just look at these 2 characters.

Is it weird that Ivor's scenes in this vid are filmed in my favourite nightclub, but Damo's session looks way more fun?

steddyeddy

YFlyer wrote: »

I know a girl from Moyross who has a PhD in Chemistry from UL. She had no problem finding a job.

I have heard of people from all sorts of areas getting jobs in science.

anncoates

AdamD wrote: »

Tbh I doubt the reasonably high achieving people going for these jobs would be lacking social skills based on where they're from. Seems a crazy assertion

Think the whole discussion branched off a bit.

I don't think anybody was denying that certain professions require particular social/cultural skills when dealing with clients. I think people were objecting to the suggestion that the skills were judged to be so innate - rather than learned social mores - as to warrant high-achieving candidates not even being afforded the chance to compete in interview. Especially in business areas supposedly based on meritocracy.

Obviously it's the case that it happens but that shouldn't preclude criticism of it or suggest that people that do criticize it just have a bee in their bonnet about wealth, certain professions or the people that work in them.

FrStone

FrStone wrote: »

... I doubt those in my work place will ever be dealing with you in a professional capacity. Our clients prefer someone with social polish. All of staff have been quite successful in their studies.

FrStone wrote: »

That's the reason in the legal firm I hire for, we only call those with a 1.1 from a university to interview. They all have to have a minimum 500 points in the leaving cert. However we still have huge numbers of applicants with this criteria. It's a very important part of the job to be able to comfortably chat with high net worth individuals. So as part of the interview process, we bring them out for dinner, it let's you tell who will order cider and who will order a good wine.

I've never read such a load of nonsense.

I have worked in banks since I was 23 years of age and the extreme nature of your attitude is alien to me. The implication that poor people might embarrass everybody by ordering cider in a fancy restaurant makes me cringe for you.

It annoys me when people invent this self-gratifying nonsense because it only intends to make others feel bad about their background.
Very recently, you were telling us about your life as a delivery driver and now you're plastering the forum in nonsense about the necessary polish of the staff you hire for your exclusive firm.

This is not how modern firms operate. Most investment bank employees have very little contact with 'civilians' in the course of employment, especially now in the internet age. I think people who don't work in FIs think they resemble the world of Gordon Gekko. Whatever about CEOs, fresh-faced trainees simply do not inhabit that world.

In fact, the beauty of free market idealism is that it rejects born entitlement in all its forms. Even Thatcher hated privilege, pointing out that she couldn't care less about the background of those around her. People who misunderstand her politics often associate her with working-class hostility. Actually, she was radical in her hostility to privilege.

The original article shows that firms, too, are worried about a possible lack of diversity in their talent pools. Although, having experienced and enjoyed an ebullient, coarse working environment where standard etiquette was suspended and a lack of self-importance was rewarded, I think their concerns are misplaced.

Obviously people put their best foot forward when dealing with clients, but to suggest that people born into poor households cannot do this, although they are well educated and have come through university, is a tad unrealistic. They're not going to be ordering Dutch Gold in l'Ecrivain FFS.

steddyeddy

Great post. I actually doubted the content of the post from Stone after reading through it a few times. I agree. Thatcher was the daughter of a shopkeeper and under the criteria of these companies wouldn't be fit to interview.

anncoates

It's not going to be a new boards law that every post about finance has to mention high net worth individuals?

Aongus, you have a lot to answer for.

jimgoose

FrStone wrote: »

...So as part of the interview process, we bring them out for dinner, it let's you tell who will order cider and who will order a good wine...

Oh Heavens to Talleyrand I can't stands anymore. You lot sound like a shower of pretentious nouveau riche wannabe cábógs. I've been all over the world, and sat at table with CEOs and princes, and I can tell you that the only man who looks down at what his neighbour is eating or drinking is the fool who wouldn't know shít from the shovel 'twas served on. :pac::pac::pac:

FrStone

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I've never read such a load of nonsense.

I have worked in banks since I was 23 years of age and the extreme nature of your attitude is alien to me. The implication that poor people might embarrass everybody by ordering cider in a fancy restaurant makes me cringe for you.

It annoys me when people invent this self-gratifying nonsense because it only intends to make others feel bad about their background.
Very recently, you were telling us about your life as a delivery driver and now you're plastering the forum in nonsense about the necessary polish of the staff you hire for your exclusive firm.

I have been a delivery driver in the past and I make no apology for it. I'll try my hand at anything.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is not how modern firms operate. Most investment bank employees have very little contact with 'civilians' in the course of employment, especially now in the internet age. I think people who don't work in FIs think they resemble the world of Gordon Gekko. Whatever about CEOs, fresh-faced trainees simply do not inhabit that world. .

Well in the legal world, associates have quite alot of contact time with clients. I don't have a huge insight into the world of investment banking. It was never my forte. However, I'm sure it would depend on the type of investment bank though. The employees of Goldman Sachs & JP Morgan do indeed spend alot of time with clients.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In fact, the beauty of free market idealism is that it rejects born entitlement in all its forms. Even Thatcher hated privilege, pointing out that she couldn't care less about the background of those around her. People who misunderstand her politics often associate her with working-class hostility. Actually, she was radical in her hostility to privilege. .

I will give you that much. Thatcher's government actually had a large amount of support from those of working class backgrounds, which the Tories have never really managed to win back since Thatcher.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Obviously people put their best foot forward when dealing with clients, but to suggest that people born into poor households cannot do this, although they are well educated and have come through university, is a tad unrealistic. They're not going to be ordering Dutch Gold in l'Ecrivain FFS.

In reality, these firms make very large profits and are quite happy with their conservative hiring practices. As much as people complain about it, not much will change, until the type of client changes.

Those who have connections with clients and prospective clients are invaluable to a firm.

FrStone

FrStone wrote: »

I have been a delivery driver in the past and I make no apology for it. I'll try my hand at anything.

Well done on going from delivery driver to rejecting anyone from your exclusive law firm who doesn't have first class honours and 'social polish'. All in the space of a few months.

I know people will think it is going too far in even raising this. I personally don't care where you or anyone else comes from, and that's not a platitude. It just annoys me when people perpetuate these false clichés, and use them against people they consider beneath them.

At least when Aongus does it, he does it in good humour. Comments like yours do nothing but try to make yourself feel better, and others feel bad about themselves.

osarusan

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well done on going from delivery driver to rejecting anyone from your exclusive law firm who doesn't have first class honours and 'social polish'. All in the space of a few months.

Hahaha!

jimgoose

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well done on going from delivery driver to rejecting anyone from your exclusive law firm who doesn't have first class honours and 'social polish'. All in the space of a few months. ...

Ah Cheeses... isn't it always these fellas! :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

FrStone

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well done on going from delivery driver to rejecting anyone from your exclusive law firm who doesn't have first class honours and 'social polish'. All in the space of a few months.

I know people will think it is going too far in even raising this. I personally don't care where you or anyone else comes from, and that's not a platitude. It just annoys me when people perpetuate these false clichés, and use them against people they consider beneath them.

At least when Aongus does it, he does it in good humour. Comments like yours do nothing but try to make yourself feel better, and others feel bad about themselves.

Well actually if you read the post you linked, I have clearly said that I have it up a few years ago.

Also I'd you'd read my earlier posts in this particular thread you would notice that I never said it is my exclusive law firm... I said I work for a large legal firm. If you'd prefer, I could have kept quiet and said nothing but steddy did ask in his op about it, so I said I would give him an insight into my work.

osarusan

FrStone wrote: »

Well actually if you read the post you linked, I have clearly said that I have it up a few years ago.

Also I'd you'd read my earlier posts in this particular thread you would notice that I never said it is my exclusive law firm... I said I work for a large legal firm. If you'd prefer, I could have kept quiet and said nothing but steddy did ask in his op about it, so I said I would give him an insight into my work.

I'm surprised you ever got the great job in a legal firm with your history as a delivery driver!
Surely they'd have discarded your CV straight away, and, what's more, you'd have approved of that :pac:

jimgoose

osarusan wrote: »

I'm surprised you ever got the great job in a legal firm with your history as a delivery driver!
Surely they'd have discarded your CV straight away, and, what's more, you'd have approved of that :pac:

I'm reminded of Groucho Marx's wonderful old line about club membership. :pac:

FrStone

osarusan wrote: »

I'm surprised you ever got the great job in a legal firm with your history as a delivery driver!
Surely they'd have discarded your CV straight away, and, what's more, you'd have approved of that :pac:

It may be news to you but you don't have to be working class to have a part time job in college.

steddyeddy

Thank you so much guys I think I'm going to burst laughing.

steddyeddy

I can imagine it now. Going from the delivery driver "story bud" to the "my daddy says if they gave up heroin they could afford that second home in Barcelona" twang in law classes in night school.

conorh91

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO6BNfxob4w