Final Fantasy VII Remaster/Remake

Christy42

Mr.Fantastic wrote: »

Not great number wise, fall apart in the second half around the 30 mark, need to go to at least 45, seem to fall off on the second round consistently

Definitely need to practice myself with the tips given here. Might leave it till last though. Not sure how much I like being worse at exercising in video games than in real life!

johnny_ultimate

Me: “OK! Here we go. The stakes have escalated, the last few quests are polished off, and the point of no return is near. Clear shot to the end: looking forward to the final stretch!”

FF7 Remake: “Hey! Remember that annoying sewer level from ten hours ago. How about that same level, but again?! For an hour!”

Me:

Kunkka

Just finishing up the quests on Chapter 14. This game is like crack cocaine. So much loyalty to the original with so many nice extra touches to the gameplay and story.

The biggest laugh so far was the shock of the damage the giant smogger did when you got too close *CLUNK . Woke up a few people with a loud laugh after that KO on Aerith

RedXIV

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Me: “OK! Here we go. The stakes have escalated, the last few quests are polished off, and the point of no return is near. Clear shot to the end: looking forward to the final stretch!”

FF7 Remake: “Hey! Remember that annoying sewer level from ten hours ago. How about that same level, but again?! For an hour!”

Me:

I got two game overs in a row in that place Didn't die on any bosses (discounting the

motorway bike boss

) but got nuked a few times by surprisingly tough mob battles

Christy42

Never minded the long areas for some reason. Granted I spent a lot of the game worrying about it ending too quick.

Plus the train graveyard was always going to seem super quick to me. Spent about 3 hours lost in the original not noticing a plank across two trains. That was frustrating I can tell you.

Maybe on replaying it it will be long. However I liked the mini story in the area.

Aside from the ending I really felt all the extra story elements brought the game to life a lot more than any other ff game or pretty much any other game. Loved seeing the inside of the plate.

gimli2112

Christy42 wrote: »

Plus the train graveyard was always going to seem super quick to me. Spent about 3 hours lost in the original not noticing a plank across two trains.

this triggered flashbacks for me

Kunkka

gimli2112 wrote: »

this triggered flashbacks for me

Me too.

A lot of ethers were stolen that day

Mr.Fantastic

Zero-Cool wrote: »

Beat this tonight 44-42 only took me an hour Christ that was tough

johnny_ultimate

Finally finished it last night.

Final Fantasy 7 Remake is a badly-designed game. Like I'm a big fan of the original, and there are a few things this game does well and in rare cases even better than the original. But I've got to be honest: there are so many missteps, frustrations and rough edges that my ultimate conclusion was there's more bad than good here.

In terms of those positives first, the main things are the characters and the combat. The game does right by its characters, making all the leads more likable and believable than they were in that infamously rough translation from back in the day. That extends to the combat, where thought genuinely has gone into how each character plays compared to the others. Fights in general are a highlight of the game. The combat system does risk turning into barely comprehensible fireworks display at times (a late game boss basically just hurls numbers at the screen) but it usually stays on the right side of legible. I don't prefer it to a really good turn-based system (ala the Persona games) and some individual fights are frustrating, but it's probably the most satisfying quasi real-time system I've come across.

One thing I will credit it is that tonally it does embrace the wackier side of the original game. There are enough annoying mini-games, oddball diversions and moments of light relief - something I (thankfully incorrectly) feared would be missing. Add to that some beautiful realisations of iconic locations (dodgy graphical shortcomings aside - LOL at Aerith's flowers) and a smart, imaginative soundtrack that is not content to merely offer straightforward orchestrations of old themes... and you've got a game that at its best does wholeheartedly embrace the 'anything goes' enthusiasm of FF7.

The combat system is fluid enough that it highlights how clunky the game feels elsewhere. FF7R feels remarkably awful to play at times when simply moving through Midgar. The often arbitrary forced walking; the invisible walls that funnel you through until the game decides to let you explore a little; the endless squeezing through walls and gaps; the over-long time it takes to rest at a bench... these are all minor in the general scheme of things, but together combine into something major. To put it bluntly: it never felt fun or satisfying to explore the locations, as there were simply too many things that slow down the flow of the game. 'Gamefeel' can be an ambiguous enough term, but this is a game that truly feels bad.

Of course, the level design is the biggest disaster in this game. It's hilariously terrible at times. The semi-open sections of chapter 9 or 14 have their issues, but the 'dungeons' are truly, irredeemably painful. Sections are stretched out with no regard for the rhythm of play. Tasks such as pulling levers in a specific order do not qualify as puzzles as the solutions are so obvious - instead they're merely unnecessary complications aimed at slowing your progress through the world to hit a misguided 30-40 hour running time. Exploration boils down to 'go this way for the main path, or this other very short way for an item' - that's it. That it continues to reach new lows right up until

Hojo's lab

is impressive.

If I were to sum up the game's problems in one word, it would be 'pacing'. The levels are tedious enough on their own terms, but everything takes longer than it should. The game has a serious problem in the way it ramps up the stakes only to try / fail to sustain tension for HOURS at a time, or simply to ignore the stakes in favour of some more wheel-spinning. Prolonged sections - and the ludicrously over-long final stretch is a main offender here - just become a long slog of loud noises and unnecessary fights.

The story, it goes without saying given some of the creatives involved, is often terribly told too: particularly in the late game, cutscenes have no flow or pace to them, and are instead just an increasingly large cast of characters yelling at each other about things it's hard to care about. It goes full Kingdom Hearts towards the end, of course, but I think there's a persistent sense throughout that the designers assume the players know the original story beat-by-beat. I've played the original a few times, but in particular in the game's third act the moment-to-moment motivations for everybody became increasingly foggy. When it eventually swings wildly and collapses into pure overwrought anime guff (far earlier in the narrative than the original :pac:) I found it impossible to care.

When FF7 is good (a disappointingly rare event) it's what you imagined a remake could be - a lavish, playful updating of a classic. But all too often it is what it was... ahem... destined to be: a desperate attempt to stretch 8-10 hours of content into a 35 hour RPG. It has little sense of flow, and no particular urgency to anything that's happening despite everything being ramped up to 11 at every possible opportunity. It's fun to see old favourites brought to life so vividly, and the combat’s robust enough to just about justify pushing through. But the game is, on the whole, an absolute slog and one of the worst-designed games I've played in the last few years.

OhHiMark

Hello captain hyperbole.

Glico Man

OhHiMark wrote: »

Hello captain hyperbole.

Not really. His points are correct and extremely hard to argue against. For me, once the nostalgia wore off, the negatives were harder to ignore.

I loved the game for the most part, but it can be a tough slog with some terrible game design and padding that adds nothing but hours to the game time.

It's a decent game, but not a great game.

johnny_ultimate

Two wayward observations I forgot to mention in my wall of text:

The Shinra corporate videos were one of my favourite parts of the game. Perfect parody of the sort of smiley-faced propaganda destructive companies put out to make themselves look good. Great presentation here, and one of the tangents that did expand the world in a fun and interesting way.

The weapons upgrade system was a decent idea frustratingly implemented. Think it actively discourages experimentation when you have to micro manage every new weapon you unlock. But it's probably the UI of the system that's the biggest problem - just that bit too clunky to navigate through the upgrade tress. Again, reckon there's the beginnings of a good idea here in terms of customisation options... one that could hopefully be refined or steamlined in the later games.

Christy42

OhHiMark wrote: »

Hello captain hyperbole.

I mean I massively disagree. As do most people it seems with Johnny's opinion but he is entitled to it.

The game has flaws but for me the narrative was the most important and it really fleshed out the world they lived in. It felt far more like a real world than any game I can think of off hand. The discussions of the pros and cons of the bombings. Even amongst the group was brilliant. The call outs to the previous game were well done.

Some parts were overly long and I spent far too long in the weapon upgrade screen even if the idea was good. I think this game really just depends on what you value from a game. I can see why parts would feel overly long since I see to agree with him on everything but the final rating. For me it is a great game. Some flaws but I can think of many in any game I have played.

RedXIV

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The weapons upgrade system was a decent idea frustratingly implemented. Think it actively discourages experimentation when you have to micro manage every new weapon you unlock. But it's probably the UI of the system that's the biggest problem - just that bit too clunky to navigate through the upgrade tress. Again, reckon there's the beginnings of a good idea here in terms of customisation options... one that could hopefully be refined or steamlined in the later games.

I think this is one of the key hopes I have, that they may streamline and improve upon the original. I also think there is some solid ideas in among the menu navigation etc but it just fell short of how I'd like it to operate. If they can be seen to improve on this, I think it'd be a huge help.

quokula

Kunkka wrote: »

Me too.

A lot of ethers were stolen that day

I had similar memories. Then I went back to the original and played it after beating the remake. I was shocked to find I got through the train graveyard in about 5 minutes. It's only a couple of screens long and I think I had maybe 5 or 6 random battles, all of which were quick.

It was really eye opening, how much the original game respects your time and how much the new one wastes it. And how areas and scenes that were actually only a few minutes long managed to make an impression that's lasted 20 years, while the remake had massive 3 hour sections representing the same areas, that were far less impactful or memorable, aside from the strong memory of boredom and of frustration at wanting to get to the next story beat.

Christy42

quokula wrote: »

I had similar memories. Then I went back to the original and played it after beating the remake. I was shocked to find I got through the train graveyard in about 5 minutes. It's only a couple of screens long and I think I had maybe 5 or 6 random battles, all of which were quick.

It was really eye opening, how much the original game respects your time and how much the new one wastes it. And how areas and scenes that were actually only a few minutes long managed to make an impression that's lasted 20 years, while the remake had massive 3 hour sections representing the same areas, that were far less impactful or memorable, aside from the strong memory of boredom and of frustration at wanting to get to the next story beat.

I think the issue here is you already have the locations from the original. This is why I loved the interplate section Plus how long did it take you to do the graveyard first time around.

I had little memory of the sewer because I did it quickly in the original. The graveyard as I said took hours for me since I missed a single plank. I don't know. I enjoyed the combat. I really didn't feel any area drag and now it feels like the graveyard has its own story to tell as opposed to just being a place where there are ghosts in the same place as old trains for reasons.

Retr0gamer

It's a train graveyard. In two words the original told you why there were ghosts and trains together.

Modern developers need to learn about show don't tell and how it's far more effective than spelling every thing out 'Metal Gear?' style.

one armed dwarf

Yeah if I was going to do a one word review here it would be 'inconsistent'. FFVII's highs are glorious and its lows are some of the most miserable gaming I've had since RDR2.

There are bits though where it perfectly nails what I'd always fantasised a FFVII remake looking like, like that Airbuster fight. Even the bike chase outside Midgar (which goes on twice as long as it needs to but is still cool).

But the moments between boss fights were so dull. Dunky in his video review said in the original VII you grinded the combat to get to the story, in Remake you grind the story to get to the cool boss fights. Kinda has a DMC5 thing going on with its overall design but unlike that game there isn't the depth here that lets me look past that games flaws.

I hope tho this will be like a FFXIV Realm Reborn situation where the framework they've built out here lets them really iterate it into something fantastic with the next installment

billybonkers

So do I sell this on now that I have finished it or what should I do?

Christy42

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's a train graveyard. In two words the original told you why there were ghosts and trains together.

Modern developers need to learn about show don't tell and how it's far more effective than spelling every thing out 'Metal Gear?' style.

Train graveyard is not a story. Why are there peoples ghosts in a place trains are left to rot? Train graveyard tells me nothing. It is a place with ghosts and trains. No story there. In the original they didn't have room. It was already on 3 discs and had a lot of ground to cover. Here they had room and so gave the place an actual story.

It is like saying you can ignore all of the hobbit and just tell someone there and back again and they should be able to fill in the blanks.

johnny_ultimate

Actually think The Hobbit is a perfect comparison to FF7 Remake, but moreso the movies Whereas The Hobbit is a lean, effective little page-turner, the films are a gargantuan, bloated three-film chore. Jackson expanded on nearly every detail and character, but in few ways that deepen the story beyond it simply being 'more'. The whole trilogy is a perfect example of how adding lore or complications does not make a story more compelling.

Like The Hobbit (the novel), FF7 (the original) is not a perfect piece of work. But like The Hobbit movie trilogy I do feel the remake confuses 'volume' of storytelling for 'quality' of storytelling. There's a lot more story in FF7 remake, but aside from certain aspects - in particular the extra space given to characters - a lot of it is just filler. It's absolutely nice to see Midgar realised in more fidelity than before, but conversations don't need to be 5-10 minutes long to get their point across. Indeed, I think the sheer length of some of the cutscenes, tangents and levels here simply loses the meaning of what's happening because there's so much noise around it.

One of the main problems with the Train Graveyard section here, aside from it being another badly designed level (half of it just leading you around in a loop and a superfluous boss fight so you're delayed in pulling a lever), is how it fits into the story. You enter the graveyard at a moment of extremely high tension and imminent danger... but that's all forgotten for roughly 60-90 minutes while you run around chasing wisps for some reason. It's not the player getting lost: that's just how the design works. It creates IMO a strange and prolonged lack of urgency at a time when the story is at its most urgent.

Greyfox

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Finally finished it last night.

Final Fantasy 7 Remake is a badly-designed game. Like I'm a big fan of the original, and there are a few things this game does well and in rare cases even better than the original. But I've got to be honest: there are so many missteps, frustrations and rough edges that my ultimate conclusion was there's more bad than good here.

In terms of those positives first, the main things are the characters and the combat. The game does right by its characters, making all the leads more likable and believable than they were in that infamously rough translation from back in the day. That extends to the combat, where thought genuinely has gone into how each character plays compared to the others. Fights in general are a highlight of the game. The combat system does risk turning into barely comprehensible fireworks display at times (a late game boss basically just hurls numbers at the screen) but it usually stays on the right side of legible. I don't prefer it to a really good turn-based system (ala the Persona games) and some individual fights are frustrating, but it's probably the most satisfying quasi real-time system I've come across...

The story, it goes without saying given some of the creatives involved, is often terribly told too: particularly in the late game, cutscenes have no flow or pace to them, and are instead just an increasingly large cast of characters yelling at each other about things it's hard to care about. It goes full Kingdom Hearts towards the end, of course, but I think there's a persistent sense throughout that the designers assume the players know the original story beat-by-beat. I've played the original a few times, but in particular in the game's third act the moment-to-moment motivations for everybody became increasingly foggy. When it eventually swings wildly and collapses into pure overwrought anime guff (far earlier in the narrative than the original :pac:) I found it impossible to care.

I disagree, I believe its a well designed game overall. It has some padding issues which is the only thing stopping this from been a masterpiece, its my game of the year anyway and I'm looking forward to playing the game again on hard. I found the combat to be superb, mixing real time with turn based made the combat more engaging and fun than most turn based games. The story is still excellent overall and I loved the fact that it showed the impact everything has on Midgar's citizens.

RedXIV

billybonkers wrote: »

So do I sell this on now that I have finished it or what should I do?

If you are looking to recoup money, I'd suggest selling ASAP, if there is one other consistency in life other than death and taxes, it's that a final fantasy game price will drop like a rock within a few months of release

Kunkka

Finished it there this morning. I really enjoyed it overall.

It does have some shortcomings, there is no doubt about it, but there is so much more that makes it a really solid remake that is loyal to the great game the original was.

Excited to see what they do with the next part.

quokula

Christy42 wrote: »

Train graveyard is not a story. Why are there peoples ghosts in a place trains are left to rot? Train graveyard tells me nothing. It is a place with ghosts and trains. No story there. In the original they didn't have room. It was already on 3 discs and had a lot of ground to cover. Here they had room and so gave the place an actual story.

It is like saying you can ignore all of the hobbit and just tell someone there and back again and they should be able to fill in the blanks.

You don't need to know why. The ghosts need no more explanation than any other monster you come across in any other area. Spending hours trying to explain them, whilst you can see helicopters passing overhead on the way to the pillar where the actual plot is happening, is indulgent and unnecessary.

And that's not the same as saying "sure you might as well skip everything." For example they added extra content where you visit Jesse's parents before the second bombing mission. This went a long way to developing the characters and fleshing out the world that bit more and was exactly the sort of addition the remake should have contained, but proved to be pretty much the only major worthwhile addition to the story for the duration.

Going off on a tangent about why there are ghosts in an area that took five minutes to traverse in the original game is completely pointless on the other hand, and additionally completely ruins the pacing in the run up to trying to rescue the crew at the pillar.

Christy42

quokula wrote: »

You don't need to know why. The ghosts need no more explanation than any other monster you come across in any other area. Spending hours trying to explain them, whilst you can see helicopters passing overhead on the way to the pillar where the actual plot is happening, is indulgent and unnecessary.

And that's not the same as saying "sure you might as well skip everything." For example they added extra content where you visit Jesse's parents before the second bombing mission. This went a long way to developing the characters and fleshing out the world that bit more and was exactly the sort of addition the remake should have contained, but proved to be pretty much the only major worthwhile addition to the story for the duration.

Going off on a tangent about why there are ghosts in an area that took five minutes to traverse in the original game is completely pointless on the other hand, and additionally completely ruins the pacing in the run up to trying to rescue the crew at the pillar.

I like seeing more detail about the areas they are in and otherwise generic areas they passed through in the main game. We are after all talking about a game where the best time to breed animals is when there is a giant meteor about to strike the planet. Indeed I felt the reason monsters get into midgar in the first place through the junkyards as interesting as well, especially seeing the natural creation of a neighbourhood watch in response. Made it feel like the place existed without the player. So they didn't explain every monster but they did give a better sense of how each section came to be. At least from my perspective.

It was what. An hour for that section? A little off pace but people are making it sound like they spent days in the place. It really didn't take that long. I mean they could have shortened the section to be fair and kept the reasoning behind the ghosts.

I mean I get we won't agree on it and it is different opinions on what should make a game work.

Laurali

one armed dwarf wrote: »

Like to just talk about chapter 8 for a second

There's a moment where they play an altered version of Aerith's theme. It's the scene where you're at the playground. There's nothing special about the scene really other than it's a famous scene from the original game that people will probably remember.

What I found interesting is in the original game Aeris' theme was like this midi orchestra outpouring of grief, it's only played twice in the original game IIRC. In Remake the theme feels pitched somewhere between sad nostalgia and a sense of hope. I know this sounds insane but the soundtrack feels to be aimed at manipulating emotions in a way that isn't just nostalgia bait. Like they know that you know what happens later which is what I'm getting at when I say that this game will lose some of its impact for the audience who haven't played the original.

I ****ed up Cloud's equipment during this scene cause I was crying lol

I'm only catching up on this thread cause I didnt want spoilers, but I feel ya. That seem was the most nostalgia for me, even though it was so minor.

Kunkka

So what happens next...

I am convinced that the whole whisper approach is to give them a free pass for the next instalment to do whatever they want to the story but to keep all the locations etc the same.

I reckon they'll go for a big controversial change like Aerith not dying or something...

Losphel

Hi. I'm hoping somebody may be able to shed some light on a question that's been nagging me for quite some time. I have completed the game--and enjoyed it tremendously--but I'm not sure if it's something that I missed or that hasn't yet been answered in-game. It's very minor--I think--but it's still kind of bothering me a little.

Spoilers for Chapter 8:

After Cloud has a vision or hallucination of Sephiroth stating that the Reunion is nothing to be feared, he mentions to Aerith that he believes Sephiroth might still be alive.

The part that is confusing for me is Aerith's reaction to that. The camera zooms in to her mouth when she softly says , "Oh, right." Aerith then abruptly turns away from Cloud, followed by a very terse, "Come on, let's go."

Any insight or clarification is greatly appreciated.

Mr.Fantastic

Just finished it , not gone on the ending , over all game is very good but could do with some fat being trimmed. Felt the train graveyard was a bit of a slog.