Patent or Copyright

bayles

Hi Guys
I have a new product that i want to bring to market , i have met with a patent lawyer who told me even without checking he is fairly sure i would get a patent on it , i have done my own search and not found it anywhere.
Thing is the lawyer has suggested protecting the idea with a copyright as an alternative to a patent as the idea could be easily changed and stolen ... im confused as to which path to follow ... he told me the patent is still a good option but to "reinforce" the safety of the product i should look at copyright also.

For obvious reasons i cant get into specifics but it is a material product , (made from material) .... anyone with a bit of skill and a sewing machine could throw one together , it is specific to a particular industry so if someone saw it they might be able to tweek it or change it a bit and call it there own . I work in the industry that it can be used and i am more than capable of building a big market for it, but before i do i want to make sure im safe .

Patents are also expensive , i don't want to invest in one to discover someone was able to get around it with some type of copyright law that allowed them to.

Thanks

Trojan

(I am not a lawyer.)

I'd definitely be getting a second opinion on this one. My understanding is that creations are instantly copyright once created, according to the Berne Convention. I've heard of copyright applying to written, musical and film based work, but never actual products - I think the line is "artistic, literary and scientific" works - so I'd check to verify this and ensure the product falls under it.

Getting a patent would be great, there are positive financial implications, but it can be difficult if the product is straightforward (i.e. fails the non-obvious requirement).

I'd ask an IP expert for an initial consultation, many of them will do a first meeting for no charge.

bayles

Hi Trojan , thanks for that ... I have already spoken with an IP expert and that's what he told me !! . I think the main issue here is that it would be very easy for the slightest thing to be changed on my product (probably because its made from material) and all of a sudden it can be classed as someone elses idea (i.e) an extra pocket or something like that and all of a sudden the look is different and it has an extra function that wasnt on the original idea .... you know what i mean .

Trojan

Good branding and R&D is part of the answer to when it's difficult to protect. You can trademark the brand too - cheaper but less effective than a patent.

Seriously, get a second expert opinion on this one.

bayles

Any suggestions as to who to go to !! .. as far as R&D , iv worked in the industry nearly 30 years and have all the research i need , i have a major outlet that would be prepared to stock this item on a trial basis to see how it sells , i have a machinist that can manufacture .... protection on the idea is what i need.

pedronomix

you can copyright a creative work, for products you can Trademark, Registered Trademark but to properly protect an innovative product design to prevent it's u nique features being replicated, you need a patent. You can reasonably cheaply obtain interim protection which will allow you to see the level of commercial viability without whole hog expense. I would recommend you talk to Anne Ryan and Co and ask for an initial free consulation, they will explain all the options and cost steps involved.

bayles

pedronomix wrote: »

you can copyright a creative work, for products you can Trademark, Registered Trademark but to properly protect an innovative product design to prevent it's u nique features being replicated, you need a patent. You can reasonably cheaply obtain interim protection which will allow you to see the level of commercial viability without whole hog expense. I would recommend you talk to Anne Ryan and Co and ask for an initial free consulation, they will explain all the options and cost steps involved.

Thanks pedronomix

Trojan

If you're in Dublin, ask the Dublin City LEO office if you can get a free mentoring session with Liam Birkett, he's an IP expert and worth talking to.

bayles

Trojan wrote: »

If you're in Dublin, ask the Dublin City LEO office if you can get a free mentoring session with Liam Birkett, he's an IP expert and worth talking to.

I am in Dublin , ill check it out .. thanks

gargargar

I would definitely look at the patent. You can go for a provisional patent relatively cheaply. In relation to slight alteration making it a different product I think that is covered with the phrasing of the patent. You write the patent in terms like ..

"One skilled in the relevant art will recognize, however, that the invention can be practiced without one or more of the specific details, or with other methods, components, etc. In other instances, well-known structures or operations are not shown or described in detail to avoid obscuring aspects of various embodiments of the invention.

Reference throughout this specification to “one embodiment” or “an embodiment” means that a particular feature, structure, or characteristic described in connection with the embodiment is included in at least one embodiment of the present invention."

While that reads a gibberish the idea is that you describe the invention and give an example but say that the example can be altered somewhat and the invention still holds.

You need to talk to a proper IP lawyer. Hanna Moore + Curley are very good.

tacofries

First of, DO NOT DISCLOSE YOUR IDEA TO ANYONE. Once an idea is in the public domain it is not patentable and public domain means even friends and family! If you have to show people then try and use a non-disclosure agreement.

I would recommend meeting 3 separate patent lawyers as their first consultation is usually free. I went to 3 lawyers about a product I created and each lawyer gave a totally different opinion on whether the product was actually patentable and what the best way to protect the product was. Before you meet them do read up on intellectual property so that you can properly interpret what they are saying.

Copyrights aren't the best form of protection by any means. You should definitely look into design rights and see if they would be more suitable for you.

I 'd definitely suggest going to FR Kelly as the lawyers that I met there were extremely honest and not just saying yes to everything that brought them money.

Here are 2 good links to read:

Patents: http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2012/12/01/a-beginners-guide-to-patents-and-the-patent-process/id=30786/
Design Rights: http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2011/12/20/design-patents-the-under-utilized-and-overlooked-patent/id=21337/

antoinolachtnai

First, it is good that you have an advisor. You really need to understand your advisor's advice. I suspect he may not have explained something well, or that you have picked it up wrong.

there is incidentally another thing called a 'design right' which is likely to be relevant.

You should take some time and read as much as you can on this website. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/intellectual-property-office

It is a good introduction to the general concepts. It might help you to better understand the advice and make further enquiries.

As you probably know, your industry (which is the textiles industry I am guessing) in Ireland has had more than its fair share of IPR disputes in the last five years.

pedronomix

As I read the OP, it is the "function" rather than the "form" that is unique and thus a patent is the only serious option in terms of protection.

bayles

Hi Guys , Sorry im only getting back to this now ... thanks for all the advice .. ill take it on board and start a little bit more research . I was told by my IP expert that i should try and establish a market for my product before i take out patent protection as i will only have 12 months to do so from "priority date" and the clock is ticking from then .

How am i expected to do this without disclosing the idea to anyone ??? and if i get a "non disclosure" agreement do i write it up myself or get an expert which costs €€€€€ ..

Thanks again

antoinolachtnai

There are plenty non-disclosure agreements on the Internet. They are probably good enough for your needs. The main problem is getting people to sign them. Few people will sign one without a very good reason.

The IP expert is right, more or less, about timeframes, but you cannot actually market your product or otherwise disclose it (except maybe within a confidentiality framework) without compromising the patentability. When you patent is really a commercial judgement.

If you are sure about your statements in your original post and other posts (you know the market; you have done market research; you are confident that you can build the sales; you have a distributor lined up) then the next 'practical' stage is really to start manufacturing and selling, not more research. If you want to patent, you need to do it now, not after you have launched the product.

I am a little worried because your expert should have elicited this information from you and explained all this.

Does the issue come down to money? Patents are pretty cheap at the outset for one country, giving you international priority (thousands of euros), compared to the cost of marketing and selling a product (tens or hundreds of thousands of euros or more). If there are prospects of significant profits, and you can afford it, why would you not patent it?

There is another issue of defensibility, i.e., whether the patent would actually be effective. You really need a patent attorney to give you a view on this and you should not be surprised if he wants to charge you for the privilege. The attorney needs to also explain the cost of litigating if the patent is violated by another person's use. (Incidentally, from what you have described, I would be concerned about the defensibility of this patent. I find it difficult to believe that you have something truly novel with such simple materials, but obviously I don't know the full story and I am not an expert in such things.) It is also worth considering that sometimes even a weak patent may have value at some point.

pedronomix

The only thing i would add, is that i dont get the marketing before patent application. I am not a pro in this area, but that flies in the face of everything I know on the topic ( I have had several patents myself)

bayles

This is the thing pedronomix !!! and i am inclined to agree with you however that is what i was told . Basically from the minute you set the "date of priority" the clock is ticking so have all the research done and be ready to roll out the business as soon as , to me it seems like a catch 22 .. but something that i need to try and work around

pedronomix

Protect it and get your ass in gear for the "duration"!

Hollister11

Maybe get both.