Guidance cuts, is it discrimination?

smallgarden

This is just my Thursday morning musings but felt like expressing this question.

Since the movement of guidance counsellors from ex quota to within the quota are guidance counsellors being discriminated against. I realise cuts had to be made but is it fair to penalise one particular teaching profession over another. Should public sector cuts not be equally applied and not just some teachers be disadvantaged.

The effect on guidance was a massive reduction in the number of jobs available and the dramatic reduction of hours in the area, as low as 3hours in some cases.

If maths teachers were told in the morning that instead of 200 maths teachers there would now only be 100 or that every maths teacher on 22hours now can only teach 11hours there would be outcry.

Principals have the discretion to allocate the hours to guidance. They are the last to be considered when timetabling due to the practicality that you need to allocate subject teachers hours first.

In schools where they can afford it they hire guidance counsellors but on privately paid contracts. Some schools just automatically have a privately paid guidance counsellor and don't allocate any hours to it from the publicly paid hours. This leaves them on contracts with similar levels of pay but without the benefits of pension, cid entitlements, sick leave, maternity cover, etc. There are probably more privately paid guidance counsellors than any other teaching profession.

Oddly enough guidance counsellors are one of the few areas where you need an extra qualification. You need a degree, a teaching qualification and a one/two year postgraduate diploma or masters qualification to work in this area. So they are likely more qualified than most teachers yet have less opportunities.

man_no_plan

smallgarden wrote: »

This is just my Thursday morning musings but felt like expressing this question.

Since the movement of guidance counsellors from ex quota to within the quota are guidance counsellors being discriminated against. I realise cuts had to be made but is it fair to penalise one particular teaching profession over another. Should public sector cuts not be equally applied and not just some teachers be disadvantaged.

The effect on guidance was a massive reduction in the number of jobs available and the dramatic reduction of hours in the area, as low as 3hours in some cases.

If maths teachers were told in the morning that instead of 200 maths teachers there would now only be 100 or that every maths teacher on 22hours now can only teach 11hours there would be outcry.

Principals have the discretion to allocate the hours to guidance. They are the last to be considered when timetabling due to the practicality that you need to allocate subject teachers hours first.

In schools where they can afford it they hire guidance counsellors but on privately paid contracts. Some schools just automatically have a privately paid guidance counsellor and don't allocate any hours to it from the publicly paid hours. This leaves them on contracts with similar levels of pay but without the benefits of pension, cid entitlements, sick leave, maternity cover, etc. There are probably more privately paid guidance counsellors than any other teaching profession.

Oddly enough guidance counsellors are one of the few areas where you need an extra qualification. You need a degree, a teaching qualification and a one/two year postgraduate diploma or masters qualification to work in this area. So they are likely more qualified than most teachers yet have less opportunities.

Have you any figures on this? It sounds plausible enough at first glance but it's a mile wide of the mark in my experience.

We have just filled a guidance post. It goes in on the timetable at the start, you can't just add it on at the end, it doesn't work like that.

Mardy Bum

Most guidance teachers have about 6 classes maximum.

smallgarden

man_no_plan wrote: »

Have you any figures on this? It sounds plausible enough at first glance but it's a mile wide of the mark in my experience.

We have just filled a guidance post. It goes in on the timetable at the start, you can't just add it on at the end, it doesn't work like that.

The set guidance classes go into the timetable yes but the non timetabled hours are based on what the school principal decides or whatevers leftover. Its discretionary and can vary from year to year. A principal can get rid of all the non timetabled contact hours if they have to or want to.

man_no_plan

smallgarden wrote: »

The set guidance classes go into the timetable yes but the non timetabled hours are based on what the school principal decides or whatevers leftover. Its discretionary and can vary from year to year. A principal can get rid of all the non timetabled contact hours if they have to or want to.

Sire they can do what they like but it would be a very foolish thing to get rid of non contact guidance and counselling. It may be in quota now but its not a luxury its a necessity in my opinion.

That's why I ask have you any info on how many hours are available now compared to before the cut? All the schools I know have tried to protect guidance as far as possible.

The amount if timetabled guidance depends on school size also, its not as simple as saying x periods per week.

smallgarden

Theres been a few surveys on the impact. This is a link to some information on one of the more recent ones http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/cuts-to-guidance-counselling-have-entrenched-privilege-1.2218349#.VVtazwVHGwA.twitter

The info im getting is more from people on the ground and job advertisements rather than statistical proof. There is no doubting there has been a reduction in hours and jobs. Yes there are principals who value and respect it and have kept the hours but sometimes that choice is simply out of their hands. There is a proven disadvantage to students in disadvantaged areas as well as cuts to guidance gave been greater

doc_17

smallgarden wrote: »

This is just my Thursday morning musings but felt like expressing this question.

Since the movement of guidance counsellors from ex quota to within the quota are guidance counsellors being discriminated against. I realise cuts had to be made but is it fair to penalise one particular teaching profession over another. Should public sector cuts not be equally applied and not just some teachers be disadvantaged.

The effect on guidance was a massive reduction in the number of jobs available and the dramatic reduction of hours in the area, as low as 3hours in some cases.

If maths teachers were told in the morning that instead of 200 maths teachers there would now only be 100 or that every maths teacher on 22hours now can only teach 11hours there would be outcry.

Principals have the discretion to allocate the hours to guidance. They are the last to be considered when timetabling due to the practicality that you need to allocate subject teachers hours first.

In schools where they can afford it they hire guidance counsellors but on privately paid contracts. Some schools just automatically have a privately paid guidance counsellor and don't allocate any hours to it from the publicly paid hours. This leaves them on contracts with similar levels of pay but without the benefits of pension, cid entitlements, sick leave, maternity cover, etc. There are probably more privately paid guidance counsellors than any other teaching profession.

Oddly enough guidance counsellors are one of the few areas where you need an extra qualification. You need a degree, a teaching qualification and a one/two year postgraduate diploma or masters qualification to work in this area. So they are likely more qualified than most teachers yet have less opportunities.

There are circulars in place regarding the number of hours a student must be in a Maths class. And the courses at JC or LC are designed for a certain number of hours. So they couldn't do what you mention above. I have sympathy for guidance teachers in schools, especially in disadvantaged areas where their job is more in the counselling end of things.

smallgarden

My argument was more if a specific subject was targeted and only that subjects hours/jobs reduced. I just used maths as a random example

implausible

smallgarden wrote: »

My argument was more if a specific subject was targeted and only that subjects hours/jobs reduced. I just used maths as a random example

I disagree with the cuts, but your argument is flawed in that Guidance is regarded more as a service, not a subject, with set hours.

smallgarden

I dont think it matters if it's considered a subject or a service. The point was a specific teaching profession was negatively impacted a lot more than other areas. Cuts should have been more even rather than penalising one area.

implausible

smallgarden wrote: »

I dont think it matters if it's considered a subject or a service. The point was a specific teaching profession was negatively impacted a lot more than other areas. Cuts should have been more even rather than penalising one area.

It does if you're trying to compare two things. To prove discrimination, it would make more sense to compare the Guidance Counsellor with School Completion Officers, Home School Community Liaison Officers, Visiting Teacher for Travellers or a Vice Principal if trying to compare, with the caveat that not all schools have these. You have to compare like with like to prove discrimination.

I'm not disagreeing with the impact of the cuts, just your claim that it is discrimination.

smallgarden

The quota is for teaching posts. If guidance is within the quota then it is considered a teaching post and then the same as any other teaching post.

The jobs you mentioned above are all ex quota

man_no_plan

smallgarden wrote: »

The quota is for teaching posts. If guidance is within the quota then it is considered a teaching post and then the same as any other teaching post.

The jobs you mentioned above are all ex quota

When guidance came in quota guidance counsellors didn't lose their jobs, teacher on small hours lost third.

The vast majority of guidance teachers were permanent I would imagine. I haven't seen much guidance advertised as you are suggesting.

smallgarden

man_no_plan wrote: »

When guidance came in quota guidance counsellors didn't lose their jobs, teacher on small hours lost third.

The vast majority of guidance teachers were permanent I would imagine. I haven't seen much guidance advertised as you are suggesting.

Their guidance hours were reduced, this has been proven. I don't know if the vast majority were permanent. There will always be newly qualified guidance counsellors. I'm not sure what you mean by "I haven't seen much guidance advertised as you are suggesting"

r93kaey5p2izun

Well in the new JC the recommended allocation for Science has been cut from 270 hours to 200. It's the only subject having its recommended time cut. Ruairi Quinn said schools would be free to give more time to it if they want but in reality this will inevitably lead to cuts and less jobs in science. And the unions haven't said a word about it while making the protection of CSPE hours a core part of their negotiations.

So it does happen in other areas. I think the cut to guidance was terrible though and really thought chaplains should be cut first if something had to give. But in my experience schools have cut other areas to protect guidance. And I suppose since guidance counsellors are qualified in other subjects anyway they weren't being made redundant.

man_no_plan

smallgarden wrote: »

Their guidance hours were reduced, this has been proven. I don't know if the vast majority were permanent. There will always be newly qualified guidance counsellors. I'm not sure what you mean by "I haven't seen much guidance advertised as you are suggesting"

I mean that you are suggesting that tiny amounts of guidance are being provided by privately paid teachers.

There were guidance teachers in most schools on an ex quota basis. These teachers were not made redundant. The guidance may have been reduced but that is not the same as a targeting of guidance teachers. They would all have other subjects

clo1

This may be off topic slightly but I am currently on a 22 hour fixed term contract and I have about 12 teaching hours and the rest of my periods will be taken up with counselling etc (Im a guidance counselor in the school also). I am however wondering am I entitled to any free periods during the week? My co counselor advised me to take three periods a week off for myself but how many am I actually entitled to or would I be expected to have all of my periods filled with either teaching/counselling, Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Xheers

smallgarden

You ask your principal how many periods you need for 22hrs, depends on class length. Fill in the set teaching ones, and then 10hrs of counselling around it.If you have 40 mins classes you could have 3 periods of counselling a day. Youll probably have to block off some for s&s as well. Any principal Ive had has allowed me to be flexible as to what periods I take

clo1

Ok so bare with me as I'm awful at maths but basically would I be right in thinking that with a 22 hour contract I need to have 33 periods of work as all classes are 40 mins long? And if so would I be right in thinking that I could have 9 periods off a week?

I'm currently counting the five s and s periods as part of the 33 periods are you supposed to do this?

Moody_mona

No. S&S is additional unpaid work.

clo1

Ok so I can't count the five s and s periods as part of the 33? Ok well that leaves me with four periods off a week is that right?

Moody_mona

clo1 wrote: »

Ok so I can't count the five s and s periods as part of the 33? Ok well that leaves me with four periods off a week is that right?

Yes. If you're called for your first three then the other two that week are essentially free classes. If you're not called for your first two, you're on call for the other three, but may or may not be used.

clo1

Ok I understand.
So just to clarify again ( sorry I'm just trying to get to grips with periods off etc)

I Have 33 periods covered and I have five s and s periods written in on top of that leaving me with a definite scheduled four periods off a week is that me good to go then?

Moody_mona

I'm not in career guidance, you might need to run it by principal/deputy principal. Whoever organises S&S will need to check that your slots fit in with the needs of the timetable. But yes that's your working week sorted.