Headphones Megathread

beauf

tomasrojo wrote: »

I only tried noise-cancellation headphones once, at a conference hall. The background hum disappeared, and I could hear what my colleagues were saying more clearly. The headphones weren't playing anything though, just doing noise cancellation.

It was more of a question than a statement; I've never used headphones on the bike or walking. Earphones very occasionally when cycling, little more often when walking, but on streets with a lot of traffic, I really can't hear anything much.

I assume they work better with constant sounds than sudden sounds as they have to react to the sound.

I have the music on loud enough to drown everything else out. Been doing it for years with a variety of headphones. I'd cycle the same route every day.

I'd do the same in a car but I don't want to blaring music at other people.

07Lapierre

NEWSFLASH:

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/17/newsflash-using-headphones-while-cycling-is-not-banned-in-ireland/

tomasrojo

beauf wrote: »

The fact is hearing as safety aid in driving, cycling is massively overstated.

http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/hearing.htm

https://ambulancevisibilityblog.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/emergency-vehicles-do-not-rely-on-sirens-for-an-effective-warning/

The first article in particular was very cogent.

The Bishop Basher

tomasrojo wrote: »

The first article in particular was very cogent.

The first article is someones opinion. Nothing more. It proves nothing either way. He may as well be a poster on boards.

However...

The De Waard 2010 independent study on cyclists found the following....

In general the response to auditory signals worsened when participants listened to music, in particular when listening with in-earbuds loud auditory stop signals were missed in 68% of the cases. However, when listening with only one standard earbud performance was not affected. In the conditions when participants listened to high volume and to high tempo music, the auditory stop signal was also heard in significantly fewer cases.

http://www.cyclelaw.co.uk/cyclist-behaviour

Another independent study found the following...

The Institute for Road Safety Research in the Netherlands found that cyclists who listen to music through headphones are 40% more likely to be involved in an accident than those who do not. Compare that to the 0.5% increase in the likelihood of an accident for car drivers listening to music. It this shows that the use of headphones and media devices can play a large part in accidents involving cyclists.

https://www.swov.nl/rapport/Factsheets/UK/FS_Use_of_media_devices_cyclists.pdf

Interesting also to note that the top 2 reasons given by cyclists in the study for listening to music while cycling were "fun" and "boredom" which ties in with my earlier post.

Look, we all know cycling can get tedious and boring. We all know that you can't and won't admit that. We all know that you know that blocking your ears is neither sensible nor safe but you choose to do it regardless as it beats the monotony of cycling.

Just be honest and admit it instead of making up ridiculously sketchy arguments to prove a case where common sense backed up by real world experience and a number of independent studies clearly dictate to the contrary.

As with the helmet and high viz debate, you're not fooling anyone.

droidus

Swanner wrote: »

As with the helmet and high viz debate, you're not fooling anyone.

Ahahaha, good one.:D

You had me going there until the punchline.

tomasrojo

Swanner wrote: »

The first article is someones opinion. Nothing more. It proves nothing either way. He may as well be a poster on boards.

However...

The De Waard 2010 independent study on cyclists found the following....

In general the response to auditory signals worsened when participants listened to music, in particular when listening with in-earbuds loud auditory stop signals were missed in 68% of the cases. However, when listening with only one standard earbud performance was not affected. In the conditions when participants listened to high volume and to high tempo music, the auditory stop signal was also heard in significantly fewer cases.

http://www.cyclelaw.co.uk/cyclist-behaviour

Another independent study found the following...

The Institute for Road Safety Research in the Netherlands found that cyclists who listen to music through headphones are 40% more likely to be involved in an accident than those who do not. Compare that to the 0.5% increase in the likelihood of an accident for car drivers listening to music. It this shows that the use of headphones and media devices can play a large part in accidents involving cyclists.

https://www.swov.nl/rapport/Factsheets/UK/FS_Use_of_media_devices_cyclists.pdf

Interesting also to note that the top 2 reasons given by cyclists in the study for listening to music while cycling were "fun" and "boredom" which ties in with my earlier post.

Look, we all know cycling can get tedious and boring. We all know that you can't and won't admit that. We all know that you know that blocking your ears is neither sensible nor safe but you choose to do it regardless as it beats the monotony of cycling.

Just be honest and admit it instead of making up ridiculously sketchy arguments to prove a case where common sense backed up by real world experience and a number of independent studies clearly dictate to the contrary.

As with the helmet and high viz debate, you're not fooling anyone.

I'm not sure whether all that is directed at me, some of it, or none of it.

Can you clarify and I'll see whether I can deal with some of the points.

The Bishop Basher

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'm not sure whether all that is directed at me, some of it, or none of it.

Can you clarify and I'll see whether I can deal with some of the points.

It's not directly aimed at anyone so feel free to respond..

tomasrojo

The SWOV PDF is really a round-up of other people's work, and it rather conflates mobile phone use and media device use. The former is usually regarded as much more distracting than the latter.

For example, I assume this is the source of the 40% claim:

Based on the outcome of questionnaires, it has
been concluded that the use of devices while cycling increases this crash risk by a factor of 1.4. This
can be compared with an increased risk for car drivers who drive a car with a 0.50 ‰ BAC

What are these devices?

With walking and cycling, portable media devices are frequently used for the purpose of listening to music, making telephone calls, reading or sending text messages, or searching for information

Which goes far beyond just listening to the radio or MP3s.

Also, "based on questionnaires" isn't the best source of information. There are all sorts of sampling bias problems, self-selection, participants telling you what you want to hear.

The De Waard study is on the impact of the use of audio devices on the abillity to hear external audio information. Whether it's very important really depends on how vital audio information is in reality.

I don't think anyone would dispute that listening to music will affect your ability to hear, but far more so with headphones, and at higher volumes.

In short, I do believe it probably makes a difference wearing earphones or headphones, but on a quiet street I think it's not important.

tomasrojo

Incidentally, who was it you were referring to that was fooling nobody in the hiviz and helmet threads?

tomasrojo

Swanner wrote: »

The first article is someones opinion. Nothing more. It proves nothing either
The Institute for Road Safety Research in the Netherlands found that cyclists who listen to music through headphones are 40% more likely to be involved in an accident than those who do not. Compare that to the 0.5% increase in the likelihood of an accident for car drivers listening to music. It this shows that the use of headphones and media devices can play a large part in accidents involving cyclists.

I think you got mixed up there. I presume you're referring to this:

0.50 ‰ BAC

That's a 0.5 part per thousand Blood Alcohol Content. Nothing to do with listening to music.

Fian

Sometimes it feels as if one "tribe" takes every opportunity to try and have a kick at the other.

Personally I put it down to motorists outrage when they are stuck in traffic and they see a load of cyclists glide past them and disappear out of sight. It offends them in a way because instinctively they believe they should be much faster in a car than a cyclist on pedal power.

On the other side you have cyclists who are angry at near misses they have encountered on the road - I know when someone has skimmed past me it makes me furious, my blood boils at the idea that they have put my life at risk and they are probably blissfully unaware that they have even scared me. It's not just that they have scared the crap out of me and don't care, they don't even know.

So you get two tribes who are trying to take pot shots at each other for the sake of it, not even because there would be any actual benefit for motorists if cyclists were banned form using headphones.

I don't use headphones myself but i would support their being banned only when we take a number of other measures which would have a greater impact on road safety:

• Limit all cars to a maximum of 30 kph by means of engine governors.
  
• Remove driver door windows and ban handsfree phones and radios so that drivers can hear what is going on around them
  
• zero blood alchohol limits for drivers
  
• put warning lights on car doors and impose a 5 second delay with the light flashing before a car door can open
  
• Impose another 5 second delay every time a car is starting from a complete stop to allow cyclists a head start at traffic light junctions.

And of course i am being facetious - I don't actually want to see any of that come in, with the exception of zero blood alcohol. But each of those would certainly have a greater impact on safety than banning cyclists from using headphones.

The thing is just because it would "save lives" doesn't mean that it is a good idea to introduce something - you need to balance the saved lives against the inconvenience and inefficiency caused. Each of the suggestions above would certainly "save lives" but that doesn't mean they should be introduced.

The Bishop Basher

tomasrojo wrote: »

I don't think anyone would dispute that listening to music will affect your ability to hear, but far more so with headphones, and at higher volumes.

But that is exactly what's being debated here... It is being claimed that wearing headphones and listening to music has little to no effect on your ability to hear ambient noise.

tomasrojo wrote: »

In short, I do believe it probably makes a difference wearing earphones or headphones, but on a quiet street I think it's not important.

Agreed.

The Bishop Basher

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think you got mixed up there. I presume you're referring to this:


That's a 0.5 part per thousand Blood Alcohol Content. Nothing to do with listening to music.

My apologies if it is incorrect but it was taken verbatim from here...

http://www.cyclelaw.co.uk/cyclist-behaviour

tomasrojo

Swanner wrote: »

But that is exactly what's being debated here... It is being claimed that wearing headphones and listening to music has little to no effect on your ability to hear ambient noise.

I'm not sure anyone claimed that they had little effect on your ability to hear ambient noise even if used at high volume in both ears. I do recall some people saying that listening with only one ear, or listening at low volume had minimal effect. I agree with the latter, not sure about the former at high volume.

tomasrojo

Swanner wrote: »

My apologies if it is incorrect but it was taken verbatim from here...

http://www.cyclelaw.co.uk/cyclist-behaviour

Is that Jurgen Knibbe's blog?

I think I'll contact him to tell him he made a bit of a howler there.

Chips Lovell

Swanner wrote: »

But that is exactly what's being debated here... It is being claimed that wearing headphones and listening to music has little to no effect on your ability to hear ambient noise.

I think it's a bit more complex Camp A vs. Camp B. For example, I've no doubt at all that wearing headphones compromise your ability to hear ambient noise to varying extents depending on the headphones. But I'd still have no issues with wearing headphones on a bike.

beauf

Interesting study. Looking at data there doesn't seem to be any increase in response time, detected visual objects, number of conflicts, speed. The increase seems to be in disobedience of traffic rules and unsafe behaviours and a "Subjective" risk rating.

Which seems a little odd why would listening to music not cause conflicts, but cause an increase in law breaking and unsafe behaviour.

The correlation is in the age profile. Listening to music while cycling

12-17 76%
25-34 54%
35-49 23%
50-65 14%

Device use increases the crash risk for teen cyclists (factor 1.4) and young adults (factor 1.8) but not for middle-aged and older adult cyclists

It seems younger people take more risk than older people. Seems a bit obvious. It might be those stats are unrelated to actual headphone use, other than its coincidentally the same user profile. You might have a similar correlation to having a facebook page, watching MTV. That said the studies all admit there's not enough studies, or data to really know.

data largely absent for these road user groups

tomasrojo

If you're right, that's a good example of confounding.

beauf

Swanner wrote: »

But that is exactly what's being debated here... It is being claimed that wearing headphones and listening to music has little to no effect on your ability to hear ambient noise. ....

No its how useful ambient noise is when cycling. When you even without earphones you can't hear much anyway and usually its non directional if you do hear it. Ultimately its a mis-direction, as there so many other much more important issues.

tomasrojo wrote: »

If you're right, that's a good example of confounding.

Can probably be interpreted in a number of ways. Its probably not that simple if the stats are the delta of the same user group. But even there its probably a factor in how conservative, or rule breaking a person is generally in life. There no data to correlate accidents with behaviour in generally. So a lot of this is conjecture.

I wouldn't cycle on the road with earphones. But there are so many much more important things, why focus on this.

Lumen

beauf wrote: »

No its how useful ambient noise is when cycling. When you even without earphones you can't hear much anyway and usually its non directional if you do hear it. Ultimately its a mis-direction, as there so many other much more important issues.

I disagree with this. I use the sounds of tyre and engine noise from vehicles approaching behind to plan my road position changes. Obviously I don't rely exclusively on them, but they are useful (to me).

The Bishop Basher

Lumen wrote: »

I disagree with this. I use the sounds of tyre and engine noise from vehicles approaching behind to plan my road position changes. Obviously I don't rely exclusively on them, but they are useful (to me).

We all do. Even those that say they don't. It's complete nonsense to suggest otherwise.

Obviously they can't when wearing headphones but then that's the point.

Like saying you go to gigs but only engage your vision to enjoy the experience. It's just not credible in any way shape or form.

Look, I don't really care if a cyclist wears headphones or not as long as they don't impact my safety.

The issue I have is with these ridiculous arguments put forward by cyclists to justify wearing them. The absolute denial by so many that wearing them will impact on their hearing, that they can negatively impact safety compounded by the meaningless whataboutery in regard to other modes of transport and the fact that they get to listen to tunes while on their daily commute.

There is absolutely no benefit to wearing headphones other then to relieve the boredom. There is however an element of risk and while the level of that risk is up for debate, surely it makes sense to err on the side of caution and not wear them.

And if you do decide to wear headphones while cycling, at least be honest about your reasons and admit the fact that you are choosing to take a hit on safety in order to relieve the boredom of your journey.

You honesty would garner far more respect in the debate from all sides as the current arguments being put forward just don't add up.

Eamonnator

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/gardai-now-have-power-to-fine-cyclists-wearing-earphones/

Sticky Bottle says that "Gardai now have power to fine cyclists wearing headphones"

And as we all know, if Sticky Bottle says it, it must be true.

tomasrojo

Swanner wrote: »

And if you do decide to wear headphones while cycling, at least be honest about your reasons and admit the fact that you are choosing to take a hit on safety in order to relieve the boredom of your journey.

I'll leave your other points, as we're just circling much the same stuff, but I have to say I have the impression (as admittedly a largely non-earphone user) that many people here listen to music while cycling to enhance their enjoyment rather than to make a boring activity more tolerable.

Chips Lovell

I prefer to see it more as "enhancing enjoyment" rather than "relieving boredom"

Chips Lovell

LOL, only saw Tomasrojo's post after I put my own up.

07Lapierre

Swanner wrote: »

We all do. Even those that say they don't. It's complete nonsense to suggest otherwise.

Obviously they can't when wearing headphones but then that's the point.

That's NOT the point...The point is that while wearing earphones you can hear music AND you can hear other sounds. While cycling, You can still hear wind, engines, sirens, tyre roar, air brakes etc.

tomasrojo

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I prefer to see it more as "enhancing enjoyment" rather than "relieving boredom"

It's a bit like taking cocaine before carnal knowledge. Will the do-gooders make that illegal next?

The Bishop Basher

07Lapierre wrote: »

That's NOT the point...The point is that while wearing earphones you can hear music AND you can hear other sounds. While cycling, You can still hear wind, engines, sirens, tyre roar, air brakes etc.

Maybe you can, maybe you can't.

It depends on numerous factors such as the headphones you're using, the volume, the content you're listening to etc etc etc.

The Bishop Basher

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'll leave your other points, as we're just circling much the same stuff, but I have to say I have the impression (as admittedly a largely non-earphone user) that many people here listen to music while cycling to enhance their enjoyment rather than to make a boring activity more tolerable.

Semantics !!

If "enhancing enjoyment" is a more palatable term for you i'm happy to use it. Amounts to exactly the same thing though..