Gender of a protagonist

CiDeRmAn

I don't care

The few girls I know that play games, or played games in the past, enjoy either a lot of Jrpgs or arcade games, such as Bubble Bobble or Duck Hunt.
There's a lot more to videogames than male military fantasy efforts.
Plus, I would expect Fifa to sell a lot more in the US now they've included female players, given the size of the ladies soccer market there.

Retr0gamer

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Lara's character had the whole thing speeded up for the games sake, but it was no different than the main character in Far Cry 3, using a tutorial to reflect this need to kill of be killed in a hostile environment.

Wasn't Farcry 3 a sending up of that whole genre trope?

Potatoeman

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I always wonder whether this is almost a self-fulfilling prophecy at this stage. Is there something innately masculine about the concept of big budget video games? I don't believe there is. Even ignoring the statistics that show it's almost a 50/50 gender split between people who play video games, has there really ever been a case of a big budget game that has totally defied traditional market 'logic' and tried something totally different (as you say, no risks)? If anything, evidence has shown that games that are pretty much 'gender agnostic' can be massive hits - perhaps best illustrated by Nintendo's seemingly improbable success with the DS and Wii. I don't think it's a stretch to say there are millions of women out there who want to play something other than the frankly condescending efforts that have been made when it comes to 'girl games'.

I say gender agnostic because - broken record alert! - I still think dividing games into 'for men' and 'for women' is a fundamentally misguided one. I remain firm in my belief that great culture and entertainment should be - and 99% of the time totally is - able to be enjoyed by anybody sufficiently interested in it, regardless of their sex. Doesn't matter if the creator is a man or woman, or the gender of the protagonist. And it's certainly not about being able to 'relate' to the game (if people relate to the vast majority of video game protagonists, then I'd be worried anyway :pac:). It's about engaging with a work and taking something new and insightful from it. It's why we watch films from different countries. It's why we read books from different times. It's why we (should) play video games with protagonists that are male, female, black, white, gay, straight, African, Japanese, young, old etc... etc...

The 50/50 gender slit is misleading. Women playing mobile games make up a big part of that figure where actual players of AAA games are mostly male. These are the games with big budgets, loads of marketing and they research their target markets.

There are games out there for everyone, vote with your wallet but don't expect things to change. It's like film buffs snearing at Transformers when its actually very successful because it gives people what they want. Its why the likes of 50 shades of grey is on the best sellers list.

Robert ninja

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Wasn't Farcry 3 a sending up of that whole genre trope?

Aye. Pretty much... white guy is powerful among foreigners because he's a white male and does sports or something. Also America. Total power trip game. Definitely aimed at male demographic between 12-18 or something like that.

Captain Chaos

Atari Jaguar

Robert ninja wrote: »

Aye. Pretty much... white guy is powerful among foreigners because he's a white male and does sports or something. Also America. Total power trip game. Definitely aimed at male demographic between 12-18 or something like that.

Oh no...no,no, it wasn't any of that. He had that powerful spirit growing inside him, turning him into the ultimate bad ass. ...Who goes on to ditch his friends and take mind altering drugs to go on the ultimate bender killing spree.

Love to see Lara doing half of that.:D

Generic Dreadhead

I don't care

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Love to see Lara doing half of that.:D

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Robert ninja

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Oh no...no,no, it wasn't any of that. He had that powerful spirit growing inside him, turning him into the ultimate bad ass. ...Who goes on to ditch his friends and take mind altering drugs to go on the ultimate bender killing spree.

Love to see Lara doing half of that.:D

I can see the kotaku, polygon (etc) headlines now...

"Lara subjected to drugs for male sex/power fantasy"
"Misogynistic spirit in Lara makes her masculine to appear strong"
"Womb Raider: Women aren't as strong as men without steroids?!"
"Ubisoft Sexist: Game portrays Lara (A WOMAN!) ditching her friends."

CiDeRmAn

I don't care

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Wasn't Farcry 3 a sending up of that whole genre trope?

Well, I picked it at random, but you know what I was getting at.
Thing is, like film or books, a well written character will not be gender neutral, instead using the sex of the person to enhance the story.
On the other hand, if the character is to be a blank cypher for the player then it won't make a blind bit of difference if the human entombed in an articulated tin can and brandishing a plasma rifle is male or female.

orubiru

I don't care

Shiminay wrote: »

We don't seem to have many games that are aimed specifically at women.

Then someone should make those games.

Don't you think that maybe there just isn't a market for big budget video games aimed specifically at women?

If video games are raking in billions of dollars then that's a sign of somebody doing something right, not something wrong.

The customers are getting what they want and the 81.5 billion dollars of revenue in 2014 is evidence of that.

"Big Budget" video games didn't just arrive on the scene, ready to go. This has been an incremental process taking place over the last couple of decades. The big budget game developers have a pretty specific formula that they follow and this satisfies their target audience. If they make loads of money in 2010 then they have more to spend on the next release for 2013, 2016 etc etc. Batman Arkham Knight was made on a budget of over 100 million dollars. You need 400 euros to buy the console to play the game on. You need 75 euros to buy the game. This game is obviously going to be aimed at the people most likely to spend that kind of money on the product. So, if the average gamer is a 35 year old guy who spends around 1,000 Euro per year on games then, guess what?

God of War 3, for example had a budget of 44 million USD. So the next one in the series will probably have a budget higher than that. NOBODY is going to say "hey, lets take that 60 million we were going to spend on the next God of War and instead we'll spend it on a video game aimed specifically at women". No. They will just make a new God of War game or something similar.

The only way you are going to see games aimed specifically at women is to have independent developers create these games and then sell them to women. If they start raking in enough money then inevitably the bigger publishers will step in and take advantage of that. This is not happening.

There are facilities such as Kickstarter that could easily be used to raise enough funds to create some games aimed specifically at women yet those facilities seem to be used to raise funds for women to make videos moaning about how nobody makes games for women. For all the money that the likes of Anita Sarkeesian have made they have apparently not put a single dollar of it towards actually developing the kind of game that they want to play.

You have a situation where a multi-billion dollar industry is getting along just fine with games being created and then purchased by customers. Some of the customers would rather purchase different games. The only options are to go elsewhere with your money or to form and fund a group that creates the games you want to play.

OR you could cause a media storm to try and force game developers to develop games that you deem acceptable. Unfortunately video games have always had a lot of negative press and there are plenty of people willing to jump on that. It's hard to imagine a man demanding that the writers of romance novels start writing more "inclusive" books being taken as seriously.

The "50% of gamers are women" thing is irrelevant. If 50% of gamers are women but 80% of PS4 owners are men then why would a developer of PS4 games make a big budget game aimed at only 20% of their market? Clearly that game would just be created on a small budget. This is pretty much what happens now. Each platform has a certain demographic and this is generally reflected in the content available on that platform.

It just comes across like going in to McDonalds and demanding taco fries. Go to Supermacs or make your own goddamn taco fries.

orubiru

I don't care

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

If anything, evidence has shown that games that are pretty much 'gender agnostic' can be massive hits - perhaps best illustrated by Nintendo's seemingly improbable success with the DS and Wii. I don't think it's a stretch to say there are millions of women out there who want to play something other than the frankly condescending efforts that have been made when it comes to 'girl games'.

I think Nintendo is proof that there is already a market for people who don't want to play violent or even stereotypically "masculine" video games.

At the moment Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Super Mario 3D World, The Wind Waker HD are all fantastic video games. They are just as widely available and affordable as other games out there.

These games already exist. These kinds of games have existed since the beginning. Pong, for example.

There has never been a point in video gaming history where someone who wants to play a game that is not violent and not "aimed at men" has not had many top quality options.

It's like the most vocal people are looking at Doom and saying "thats WAY too violent" and Nintendo are there saying "well, we have a whole range of entertaining, fun, inventive and beautiful games come and have a look" and the response is "BUT DOOM IS TOO VIOLENT!"

Potatoeman

Robert ninja wrote: »

Aye. Pretty much... white guy is powerful among foreigners because he's a white male and does sports or something. Also America. Total power trip game. Definitely aimed at male demographic between 12-18 or something like that.

I just figured its to make the character a fish out of water and American because thats their market. An outsider makes exposition more natural. FC4 changed this to dodge criticism but you do wonder how the character knows so little about his parents country of origin and history.

Links234

I don't care

orubiru wrote: »

Then someone should make those games.

Sorry for taking such a long post that no doubt had a lot of thought put into it and just quoting a line to respond to, but I think you're working off a bit of a fallacy here. It's one thing to say someone should make those games but the reality is another, when you've got examples of publishers demanding that developers change their female lead to male, it's a serious issue. You could argue that maybe people do want to make X games and people do want to play those those games, but publishers and marketing could railroad them into making something else.

And honestly, there can be a difference between what people want and what is pushed on them, as demonstrated by any recent DLC related controversy like the current Arkham Knight debacle. Nobody really wants a game that's been carved up before release and portions sold as preorder bonuses and exclusive content, but people buy into it because nobody wants to feel shortchanged on a brand new purchase, and it's understandable that someone wants to get the full experience, so they get away with these kind of ridiculous business practices. That, and selling games that are bug riddled and broken on release, or dare I say frame locked to 30fps? Likewise CD Projekt Red was praised so highly because The Witcher 3 simply worked and there was no bull****.

Considering the response to the poll here, you do have to wonder that if so many people don't care if the protagonist of a game is female, then why should it be an issue if the main character of some hyperviolent shooter is a woman?

orubiru

I don't care

Links234 wrote: »

Sorry for taking such a long post that no doubt had a lot of thought put into it and just quoting a line to respond to, but I think you're working off a bit of a fallacy here. It's one thing to say someone should make those games but the reality is another, when you've got examples of publishers demanding that developers change their female lead to male, it's a serious issue. You could argue that maybe people do want to make X games and people do want to play those those games, but publishers and marketing could railroad them into making something else.

Considering the response to the poll here, you do have to wonder that if so many people don't care if the protagonist of a game is female, then why should it be an issue if the main character of some hyperviolent shooter is a woman?

This is why people should support indie games or support games that do meet their criteria.

If a game has a 50 million dollar budget then should the people fronting the 50 million dollars have no say at all in the content of the game? That will never happen. If the publishers are paying for the game and they want a male lead then that's what they should get.

The developers are paid to create a product. That product will then be sold to the public.

The public doesn't have to buy the product. If they are buying it then the publisher gets their money, the developer gets signed up for future projects, the customer gets their game. Everyone is happy.

The only way for you to have the specific game you want is to support independent developers who are willing to create that game or to make it yourself.

aaronjumper

Atari Jaguar

Gender of a main character doesn't bother me. If they are interesting then I look forward to exploring their story.
I am looking forward to Mirrors Edge Catalyst even though I would have preferred a proper sequel but the story looks good as does the gameplay, added to that they plan to flesh out the main character of Faith so how bad.

I liked the New Tomb Raider even though it breaks the formula it was known for.

If the gameplay is good enough, I'll even overlook the story or lack of it. I'm talking about Watchdogs (story and characters were crap) and Destiny (practically non existent). That's probably for another thread though.

Penn

I don't care

I've started to lean towards selecting/creating female characters when given the choice. Not really for any reason in particular. Maybe I'm just bored of my own lack of imagination as I'd say in previous games where I could create characters, they all probably looked and sounded the same. Tall, muscular, dark short hair, slight stubble etc (basically me (if I was tall, muscular, had dark short hair and slight stubble)).

johnny_ultimate

You have a situation where a multi-billion dollar industry is getting along just fine with games being created and then purchased by customers.

Honestly? I don't think it's fine. It's a problem IMO if there are all these games out there, often fantastic ones, being played by anywhere between a 75% and 90% male audience. It's not just because the games have an aggressively masculine subject matter, although some do. It's because of more complex sociological conditions, not least among them a significant and vocal section of the enthusiast community that is actively hostile towards women players and developers (whether that's abuse over Xbox Live or the actions of some members of a movement that shall not be named). And, as cynical as this statement is, businesses can manipulate the market, and define the agenda. A lot of people consume media very uncritically these days, and that's something many companies prey on and play with.

If we accept, which we must, that currently a significant chunk of mainstream games only have a small female audience, then that's something it's important to look at and figure out why. To me that is manufactured inequality, and not something we just need to accept and move on with our lives. When we have people, some of whom I have a whole lot of respect for in other ways, passionately fighting to maintain AAA gaming as a 'male space' then to me there's something fundamentally wrong afoot. And it's not just about throwing in token 'strong female characters' (an idea which sadly can become a parody of itself in the wrong hands), it's about allowing for the emergence for cultural and market conditions to allow games to strive both artistically and economically. After all, if businesses actively pursued a larger market - and there's a good 50% of the population they don't often go after - then they could potentially have even greater levels of success. A lot of people say 'stop forcing change on the games we love!'. But positive, progressive change is a good thing for existing and new players, and something that should be innate - that we need to 'fight' for it all is of concern. This is something worth repeating: more diverse games = better games. It's boring to be greeted with the same old one-dimensional male protagonists again and again. Tell me, tell us new stories!

As I argued earlier, great entertainment and art pays no heed to gender 'barriers': even if it is told from a particular perspective, anybody interested enough should be able to consume it and appreciate it (even if the appreciation is on different levels). Yes, there are plenty of games out there for wide audiences, many great ones, but I can't imagine anyone denying there is still nonetheless an unequal market out there, and an often hostile one. Certainly it's not a good thing if it's predominantly or even only indie games offering significant diversity and accessibility (and there's a major problem with visibility when it comes to indie games anyway, often struggling to reach the audiences who would appreciate them - I know you already have to be actively engaged with gaming culture to discover many of them). There are many reasons why its mostly men playing video games. But I don't think there are many good ones.

(I stumbled upon an article earlier that articulates much of what I'd believe in a more in-depth, insightful way. Here!)

titan18

Mostly no, but some small cases, where it does, but most of those games offer a choice of character or create your own anyway e.g Skyrim, Mass Effect,Dragon Age etc

Nollog

On the whole, I don't care.

If they only make the protagonist female for the sake of making it female, I lose a little respect, but if it's got merits it doesn't matter.

I always play as a female when given the choice anyway.

Calhoun

No

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Honestly? I don't think it's fine. It's a problem IMO if there are all these games out there, often fantastic ones, being played by anywhere between a 75% and 90% male audience. It's not just because the games have an aggressively masculine subject matter, although some do. It's because of more complex sociological conditions, not least among them a significant and vocal section of the enthusiast community that is actively hostile towards women players and developers (whether that's abuse over Xbox Live or the actions of some members of a movement that shall not be named). And, as cynical as this statement is, businesses can manipulate the market, and define the agenda. A lot of people consume media very uncritically these days, and that's something many companies prey on and play with.

If we accept, which we must, that currently a significant chunk of mainstream games only have a small female audience, then that's something it's important to look at and figure out why. To me that is manufactured inequality, and not something we just need to accept and move on with our lives. When we have people, some of whom I have a whole lot of respect for in other ways, passionately fighting to maintain AAA gaming as a 'male space' then to me there's something fundamentally wrong afoot. And it's not just about throwing in token 'strong female characters' (an idea which sadly can become a parody of itself in the wrong hands), it's about allowing for the emergence for cultural and market conditions to allow games to strive both artistically and economically. After all, if businesses actively pursued a larger market - and there's a good 50% of the population they don't often go after - then they could potentially have even greater levels of success. A lot of people say 'stop forcing change on the games we love!'. But positive, progressive change is a good thing for existing and new players, and something that should be innate - that we need to 'fight' for it all is of concern. This is something worth repeating: more diverse games = better games. It's boring to be greeted with the same old one-dimensional male protagonists again and again. Tell me, tell us new stories!

As I argued earlier, great entertainment and art pays no heed to gender 'barriers': even if it is told from a particular perspective, anybody interested enough should be able to consume it and appreciate it (even if the appreciation is on different levels). Yes, there are plenty of games out there for wide audiences, many great ones, but I can't imagine anyone denying there is still nonetheless an unequal market out there, and an often hostile one. Certainly it's not a good thing if it's predominantly or even only indie games offering significant diversity and accessibility (and there's a major problem with visibility when it comes to indie games anyway, often struggling to reach the audiences who would appreciate them - I know you already have to be actively engaged with gaming culture to discover many of them). There are many reasons why its mostly men playing video games. But I don't think there are many good ones.

(I stumbled upon an article earlier that articulates much of what I'd believe in a more in-depth, insightful way. Here!)

Agree with most of this but i still want the option at times to veg out on popcorn for the brain type shootem ups with macho chars.

When it comes to RPG type games i also like the option for a male character as i said before for immersion but i do get what your saying.

orubiru

I don't care

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

It's because of more complex sociological conditions, not least among them a significant and vocal section of the enthusiast community that is actively hostile towards women players and developers (whether that's abuse over Xbox Live or the actions of some members of a movement that shall not be named).

It's boring to be greeted with the same old one-dimensional male protagonists again and again. Tell me, tell us new stories!

If it's boring to be greeted with the same old one-dimensional male protagonists then stop buying those games and give your money to indie developers who ARE making more interesting and more inventive games.

Donate to a Kickstarter that is funding the kind of game you want to play.

If there is a community of gamers demanding certain male oriented games or if they are just flat out "anti-women" then it's up to the developers and publishers if they want to make and sell games to that audience. You do not need to buy the games and you do not have to participate in that community.

It's like if I go down to the market and sell a ton of bananas. Every day I go back down there and I sell more bananas. Day after day. I am making a profit and my customers are getting fed. Everyone is happy. Then someone comes along and starts demanding that I sell oranges and apples and strawberries too because they don't like bananas. My banana buying customers are like "shut up, we like bananas, whats your problem?"

Is it unreasonable for me to just say "hey, why don't you go buy your oranges, apples, and strawberries somewhere else? Or maybe just grow your own?"

It seems pretty much the same as people who whine and moan about those godawful Transformers movies. If you don't like them then don't watch them. Support local movies instead. Promote lesser known films on your Twitter or Facebook or whatever.

People are creating new video game characters and new video game stories ALL THE TIME and they are being largely ignored because people would rather devote their time to bitching about the content of "AAA" games than promote and support smaller games with less hype and smaller budgets.

johnny_ultimate

orubiru wrote: »

If it's boring to be greeted with the same old one-dimensional male protagonists then stop buying those games and give your money to indie developers who ARE making more interesting and more inventive games.

It seems pretty much the same as people who whine and moan about those godawful Transformers movies. If you don't like them then don't watch them. Support local movies instead. Promote lesser known films on your Twitter or Facebook or whatever.

People are creating new video game characters and new video game stories ALL THE TIME and they are being largely ignored because people would rather devote their time to bitching about the content of "AAA" games than promote and support smaller games with less hype and smaller budgets.

I do, all the time - here, on social media, and I'm often lucky enough to have some bigger platforms too I use whatever venues I can to shout about great games (and films) of all sorts. I firmly believe in supporting independent developers in particular, and buy their games at launch whenever I can. But I still think there's a lot of positive change that can take place in gaming as a 'whole', that would benefit both everyone who plays games (well, maybe apart from the straight-up misogynists, but **** 'em) and lots and lots of people who don't. That to me is something worth talking about, alongside promoting the many fantastic games that are making positive strides forwards

orubiru

I don't care

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I do, all the time I use whatever venues I can to shout about great games (and films) of all sorts. I firmly believe in supporting independent developers in particular, and buy their games at launch whenever I can. But I still think there's a lot of positive change that can take place in gaming as a 'whole', that would benefit both everyone who plays games (well, maybe apart from the straight-up misogynists) and lots and lots of people who don't. That to me is something worth talking about, alongside the many fantastic games that are making positive strides forwards

I agree that there do need to be changes in gaming but it's pretty much in the same way I see the need for changes in movies or music. It's a personal thing though because the specific things that I like are not being made or are not as popular and I see trailers for cr@p games like Arkham Knight or lame movies like Terminator Genisys and my eyeballs roll.

I don't like them. So I don't participate.

I think that criticism of video games, just like movies or music, is good. You can obviously identify the things that you don't like about a particular game and you can say that it's rubbish because of that. I will often follow the recommendations of reviewers I respect or share similar views with.

My issue is with people who think they can somehow campaign and lobby to change the industry. I have a problem with people who think that they should be the ones that dictate what content should or should not be available. I have a serious problem with people who don't even really play games criticizing things they know nothing about.

If someone decides to make a game with scantily clad ladies being slaughtered in a nightclub then fair enough. I wont buy it and I wont play it. Should I be allowed to say "people should not be allowed to make this type of game as it excludes people like me who don't like it"?

I'd rather see someone rave about how awesome Child of Light is instead of pointing out all the things they hate about GTA and how the "gaming community" has to change.

Potatoeman

I dont think there would be a huge influx of female gamers if they made every main character female. Even games from the 80's with gender neutral characters attracted more boys than girls. It's like expecting cosmo to start appealing to men.

People are too quick to call people women haters for speaking out and questioning changes being demanded. There is no pleasing the most vocal. The whole violence against women in video games thing raises the problem of violence in games full stop. No one complains when Laura Croft kills wave after wave of men and they shouldnt because its a videogame.

gizmo

I don't care

orubiru wrote: »

My issue is with people who think they can somehow campaign and lobby to change the industry. I have a problem with people who think that they should be the ones that dictate what content should or should not be available. I have a serious problem with people who don't even really play games criticizing things they know nothing about.

In the context of this thread I think your first point is quite important. The OP originally asked did the gender of the protagonist matter to people when it came to purchasing a game. The majority have said either no or they don't care. We then have people coming on saying that the reason most leads are male is because it reflects the target audience. But if the supposedly male dominated audience doesn't care, why is there such a push from publishers and, to a somewhat lesser extent, developers for male leads? Who are they focus testing to come to that conclusion? If they do have it wrong and gamers don't actually care then isn't it right people become more vocal about the issue in order to, at the very least, promote the idea of more diverse leads?

To be clear, I'm treating the desire for better written leads to be a separate argument. It's arguably more important in the grand scheme of things but not only is it off topic, I also think you'll struggle to find an argument against better writing across the boards in games. When it comes to the simpler point of the gender of the character, however, there's a reason we're not seeing greater variety and that's the more interesting talking point.

Evade

Atari Jaguar

gizmo wrote: »

To be clear, I'm treating the desire for better written leads to be a separate argument.

I think there is a link between the two arguments. People see badly written shallow male characters and they say meh. People see badly written shallow female characters and the say sexism.

orubiru

I don't care

gizmo wrote: »

In the context of this thread I think your first point is quite important. The OP originally asked did the gender of the protagonist matter to people when it came to purchasing a game. The majority have said either no or they don't care. We then have people coming on saying that the reason most leads are male is because it reflects the target audience. But if the supposedly male dominated audience doesn't care, why is there such a push from publishers and, to a somewhat lesser extent, developers for male leads? Who are they focus testing to come to that conclusion? If they do have it wrong and gamers don't actually care then isn't it right people become more vocal about the issue in order to, at the very least, promote the idea of more diverse leads?

To be clear, I'm treating the desire for better written leads to be a separate argument. It's arguably more important in the grand scheme of things but not only is it off topic, I also think you'll struggle to find an argument against better writing across the boards in games. When it comes to the simpler point of the gender of the character, however, there's a reason we're not seeing greater variety and that's the more interesting talking point.

I think it would be fair to say that the majority of action based games (which tend to be the "AAA" games we talk about) are taking their lead from Hollywood movies and those movies have been taking their lead from "hero" stories in some form. It could be the typical "hero's journey" tale or books or comics or rael life stories of war heroes etc.

So if we look back on all of that we can see an obvious trend towards male protagonists in action based stories.

So the criticism of games SHOULD extend to books, comics, plays, TV shows and movies. It doesn't though, because gamers are an easy target.

When we look at the typical "action" story the main character has to be strong and powerful and "heroic" and for human beings these are things that we generally associate with men. What gender are the 10 fastest people on the planet? What gender are the 10 strongest people on the planet? Take the world most famous sports teams... how many women are on the team? In WW1 and WW2, who was doing the fighting?

There are pretty solid reasons why the majority of "action based" stories will be written with a male protagonist.

So, if you are a writer, and you are sitting down to write a story. Let's say you are going to call it "Gears of War" and it's going to be about humans fighting these huge strong monster things. The main characters will be running around in heavily armored suits, carrying heavy guns, chainsawing enemies to death and fighting these beasts in hand to hand combat. What gender do you think the main protagonists will be?

I think that the nature of the story frequently dictates the nature of the protagonist.

While people might say they "don't care" about the gender of the protagonist does anyone think that the popularity of Rocky, Rambo, Die Hard, Batman, Blade, Mission Impossible etc would be exactly the same if the main character was swapped out for a female protagonist?

We don't see greater variety, I think, because in general the formula of "strong guy does action things" works well in action based stories. Having a female main character once in a while takes advantage of the market because people like to see something different and/or new once in a while.

Maximus Alexander

I don't care

On the contrary, I played the ME series as a female Shepard because I felt the voice actor was better, and it added a little flavour. I've been a grizzly male space marine plenty of times already.

Robert ninja

People would yap about gender issues with chess if was a recently made video game.

johnny_ultimate

Always worth repeating that it's very possible to be critical of aspects of a game while still appreciating it overall - there's more shades of grey than 'love' and 'hate' There's a lot of people out there who criticise certain recurrent tropes and trends in gaming because they otherwise adore the very same games.

Yes, I fully agree it's vitally important there's lots of positive criticism out there to counter negativity which is sadly prevalent across gaming discussion. But I'm going to have to agree to disagree that the wider industry and socioeconomic trends aren't worthy of critique. I think it's important to look at why gaming isn't more inclusive, because I don't think it's the one and only 'right' state of affairs, and try to promote positive change. I think it's important to talk about the sections of the gaming community that make it a very hostile, unwelcoming place and see what we can do to make it less so. Even gaming development is radically imbalanced at the moment, with some worrying examples of sexism (and yeah, I think that's the appropriate word for many of the cases we hear about with disappointing regularity). And yep, I genuinely believe mainstream, AAA video games can and should appeal to a wider audience. All these things feed into each other, sadly.

Just to make it clear: this idea of 'forcing change', kicking and screaming, is not what people are arguing for. There will still be games like the ones people today, nobody wants to 'take them away', and certainly it's not a matter of just throwing token female characters haphazardly into every military shooter in some contrived way. Instead it's more a hope that gaming, generally evolves beyond being merely a boys club. It's great to see such a lively, diverse indie scene - and delighted to see Her Story having such success this week - but again I think video gaming more generally needs to open up for these smaller games to start reaching more audiences that would appreciate them. These conversations won't go away, and if people think they're pointless or silly that's cool. But I for one strongly believe things will be better if they move beyond the way they are at the moment, and well that's about as definitively as I can put it.

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I don't care

orubiru wrote: »

So the criticism of games SHOULD extend to books, comics, plays, TV shows and movies. It doesn't though, because gamers are an easy target.

Er, it does! There's all manner of criticism along the same lines towards movies and TV, and I'd argue there's a lot more of it aimed towards movies than games. You've got the Bechdel test, you've got criticism over the fact that there's been no superhero movie with a female protagonist amongst this superhero craze (whatever about Wonder Woman, how has Black Widow not been given her own movie yet?), commentary on misogyny in horror, it goes on and on. The big different maybe is that movie enthusiasts respond to said criticism with a bit more maturity than game enthusiasts? Women have been criticizing other media for ages because of disenfranchisement.

Anyway, something that's bothered me is the sort of gendering of different genres and styles of games. Action and violence aren't specifically things only men can enjoy, just as games with non-violent content aren't things only women can enjoy. I can really appreciate games that are new and interesting and don't have violence as the main gameplay mechanic, while at the same time appreciating some good exciting action. Sometimes I like to play something like Banished and chill out, others I like kill lots of things in a hail of bullets and gore. Been really enjoying Wolfenstein: The New Order, and I don't see that as a 'male' game, because who doesn't like blowing the heads off of nazis? It's also a game where there's some fantastic women characters.