Gender of a protagonist

Potatoeman

It comes across as wanting to change something to suit personal desires and claiming misogny if someone disagrees. Vote with your wallet. Buy Tomb Raider, Fallout, Skyrim any game with female characters or user designed ones.

Avoid the communities that are hostile. I dont play COD and would rather cut my ears off than listen to a 12 year old rant stupid insults. There are so many options but you don't have the right to be included either.

kunst nugget

I don't care

Links234 wrote: »

You've got the Bechdel test

While it's an interesting thought experiment, the fact that Gravity fails the test and Sex in the City 2 pass means it's fatally flawed imo.

Mickeroo

I don't care

Bechdel test is moronic imo.

Links234

I don't care

kunst nugget wrote: »

While it's an interesting thought experiment, the fact that Gravity fails the test and Sex in the City 2 pass means it's fatally flawed imo.

It's only flawed if you assume it's meant to be a measure of quality, it's not. It is like you say yourself an interesting thought experiment. But regardless of what you think about the test itself, I'm bringing it up as an example that other forms of media have their own criticisms.

johnny_ultimate

Plenty of mainstream films receive lots of discussion about their portrayals of gender. Avengers 2 and Mad Max: Fury Road to pick two recent examples.

gizmo

I don't care

Evade wrote: »

I think there is a link between the two arguments. People see badly written shallow male characters and they say meh. People see badly written shallow female characters and the say sexism.

To be honest, I've never really seen criticism of a female character for being shallow, at least in the same context as their male counterparts. I've seen plenty of criticism of them for relying on ****ty stereotypes, character models, armor etc... and then saying sexism.

orubiru wrote: »

So, if you are a writer, and you are sitting down to write a story. Let's say you are going to call it "Gears of War" and it's going to be about humans fighting these huge strong monster things. The main characters will be running around in heavily armored suits, carrying heavy guns, chainsawing enemies to death and fighting these beasts in hand to hand combat. What gender do you think the main protagonists will be?

Links covered the fact that such criticism does exist in other mediums so I'm just going to pick up on this point. My answer? It depends.

To be honest, the first thing I thought of when I read the above paragraph was Emily Blunt's kick-ass performance in Edge of Tomorrow so it's certainly not that clear cut. In terms of video games why not look at Gears of War itself? I would have happily played as Anya in later entries in the series for instance.

But on a general point, do you think such action games would be diminished with female leads? Would you have enjoyed Mirrors Edge more if Faith was a male? What about Heavenly Sword with Nariko, Cate Archer in NOLF, Nilin from Remember Me, the er, protagonist of Oni whose name I can't remember...

Then there are the games where you're given an option. As Maximus Alexander pointed out, Jennifer Hale gave what is widely recognised as a superior performance in the role of FemShep but was she a lesser hero because she was a female?

orubiru wrote: »

I think that the nature of the story frequently dictates the nature of the protagonist.

This is most certainly true and I'm not for one second suggesting that we need to make all heroes female, nor that we shoehorn them in for the sake of it. Remember though, we're dealing with a publisher who was afraid of the effect of having a female character in a game which was, one assumes, written around her by the designers after all.

orubiru wrote: »

While people might say they "don't care" about the gender of the protagonist does anyone think that the popularity of Rocky, Rambo, Die Hard, Batman, Blade, Mission Impossible etc would be exactly the same if the main character was swapped out for a female protagonist?

Of course not, but that relates to your previous point. That doesn't mean you can't have a kick-ass female vampire hunter, superhero or secret agent however.

kunst nugget

I don't care

Potatoeman wrote: »

It comes across as wanting to change something to suit personal desires and claiming misogny if someone disagrees. Vote with your wallet. Buy Tomb Raider, Fallout, Skyrim any game with female characters or user designed ones.

Avoid the communities that are hostile. I dont play COD and would rather cut my ears off than listen to a 12 year old rant stupid insults. There are so many options but you don't have the right to be included either.

Tbf, I don't think anyone here has been claiming misogyny, just how they like to see an exploration of more full rounded characters and maybe a move away from some of the more moronic gung ho male characters. I can't see what the issue is there. People are allowed to critique the media they consume and enjoy but for some reason it's tantamount to treason in gaming since gamergate kicked off and you express any sort of opinion on the role of women in videogames you're a SJW. Look at the cartoon put up about Chess. Saying if you don't like what's happening in games, just buy ones with girls in them and be happy with your lot seems kind of childish tbh.

In relation to the online communities, I can't comment as I've never played and doubt I ever will…

Potatoeman

kunst nugget wrote: »

Tbf, I don't think anyone here has been claiming misogyny, just how they like to see an exploration of more full rounded characters and maybe a move away from some of the more moronic gung ho male characters. I can't see what the issue is there. People are allowed to critique the media they consume and enjoy but for some reason it's tantamount to treason in gaming since gamergate kicked off and you express any sort of opinion on the role of women in videogames you're a SJW. Look at the cartoon put up about Chess. Saying if you don't like what's happening in games, just buy ones with girls in them and be happy with your lot seems kind of childish tbh.

In relation to the online communities, I can't comment as I've never played and doubt I ever will…

Those are the voices that get the most coverage though and its not surprising there is a kick back. What seems to happen is someone criticising a game gets criticised themselves claims bullying so they can't be criticised. It's a very odd cycle. I hear Anita S is being invited to give her input on games in design.

Links234

I don't care

Potatoeman wrote: »

It comes across as wanting to change something to suit personal desires and claiming misogny if someone disagrees. Vote with your wallet. Buy Tomb Raider, Fallout, Skyrim any game with female characters or user designed ones.

Avoid the communities that are hostile. I dont play COD and would rather cut my ears off than listen to a 12 year old rant stupid insults. There are so many options but you don't have the right to be included either.

Anyone can demand anything they want. Fan demands have changed plenty in the past, and it's not a thing that is going to go away any time soon. Samuel L. Jackson's famous line was added to Snakes on a Plane because people demanded it. You can't have supply & demand without the demand, if there's a demand for something and no supply, then it's a gap in the market for someone to jump in and supply something. If people are out there clamouring for more female protagonists in gaming, as they're perfectly entitled to, then it's showing a market for just that.

I'm perfectly entitled to say I want a sci-fi action game with a black transgender female protagonist voiced by Laverne Cox, and other people come along and say yeah that should totally be a thing, we'd play the **** outta that! So we make a lot of noise about it and it gathers a lot of support, then maybe someone sees there's a market for it and makes that sci-fi action game with a black transgender female protagonist voiced by Laverne Cox!



I'm not entitled to have that game made, but I'm certainly entitled to ask for it!

Maybe I will start demanding this game?

K.O.Kiki

Atari Jaguar

Just in case anyone forgets, the comic that spawned the "Bechdel Test" meme makes some assumptions about "male" movies too (the background posters):

Links234

I don't care

gizmo wrote: »

To be honest, the first thing I thought of when I read the above paragraph was Emily Blunt's kick-ass performance in Edge of Tomorrow so it's certainly not that clear cut.

I was only just thinking of that! :eek:

Amazing movie

Potatoeman

That's a bad example it actually sounds unique and interesting. Wouldn't get a AAA budget but I'd play it.

kunst nugget

I don't care

Potatoeman wrote: »

Those are the voices that get the most coverage though and its not surprising there is a kick back. What seems to happen is someone criticising a game gets criticised themselves claims bullying.

Has anyone on here claimed bullying? The problem seems to be that if you criticize games, you're being viewed as being part of some progressive, soya-milk drinking collective trying to ruin the fun of gaming for everyone and gamergate encouraged that by making it a socio-political movement that pitched itself as libertarian conservatives fighting progressive censorship. Not one person on this forum has ever encouraged the notion of censorship iirc and expressing an opinion that you'd like to see some gaming exploring more complex and interesting themes in general doesn't mean that you only want those type of games being made and that you think AAA shooters should be banned.

kunst nugget

I don't care

gizmo wrote: »

To be honest, the first thing I thought of when I read the above paragraph was Emily Blunt's kick-ass performance in Edge of Tomorrow so it's certainly not that clear cut.

Doona Bae was the highlight of Sense8. Every time she was kicking the shíte out of people it was fantastic to watch.

kunst nugget

I don't care

Links234 wrote: »

I was only just thinking of that! :eek:

Amazing movie

The ending was very meh. Something about it just drained out my enjoyment of the film. It was fantastic right up to it.

Calhoun

No

Links234 wrote: »

Anyone can demand anything they want. Fan demands have changed plenty in the past, and it's not a thing that is going to go away any time soon. Samuel L. Jackson's famous line was added to Snakes on a Plane because people demanded it. You can't have supply & demand without the demand, if there's a demand for something and no supply, then it's a gap in the market for someone to jump in and supply something. If people are out there clamouring for more female protagonists in gaming, as they're perfectly entitled to, then it's showing a market for just that.

I'm perfectly entitled to say I want a sci-fi action game with a black transgender female protagonist voiced by Laverne Cox, and other people come along and say yeah that should totally be a thing, we'd play the **** outta that! So we make a lot of noise about it and it gathers a lot of support, then maybe someone sees there's a market for it and makes that sci-fi action game with a black transgender female protagonist voiced by Laverne Cox!



I'm not entitled to have that game made, but I'm certainly entitled to ask for it!

Maybe I will start demanding this game?

Maybe you should but i think one of the points being made is that, you may want and demand a game be made with a transgender female protagonist but if the demand isn't there because existing gamers don't want to play it then folk shouldn't be forced into it.

On the other hand however the industry in itself should be taking every opportunity to broaden its market while still serving the existing need.

Links234

I don't care

kunst nugget wrote: »

Doona Bae was the highlight of Sense8. Every time she was kicking the shíte out of people it was fantastic to watch.

She was terrific, I was thinking I knew her from something else, so I looked her up and she was the older sister in The Host.

Personally, I loved Jamie Clayton in that, got an absolutely gigantic crush on her now :pac:

kunst nugget

I don't care

Links234 wrote: »

She was terrific, I was thinking I knew her from something else, so I looked her up and she was the older sister in The Host.

Personally, I loved Jamie Clayton in that, got an absolutely gigantic crush on her now :pac:

There was something I found a tad wooden about her performance up until the scene in the gallery. That was extraordinarily well handled. She won me over with that scene.

Potatoeman

kunst nugget wrote: »

Has anyone on here claimed bullying? The problem seems to be that if you criticize games, you're being viewed as being part of some progressive, soya-milk drinking collective trying to ruin the fun of gaming for everyone and gamergate encouraged that by making it a socio-political movement that pitched itself as libertarian conservatives fighting progressive censorship. Not one person on this forum has ever encouraged the notion of censorship iirc and expressing an opinion that you'd like to see some gaming exploring more complex and interesting themes in general doesn't mean that you only want those type of games being made and that you think AAA shooters should be banned.

This unfortunately is the current atmosphere online. I didn't say someone here claimed it but it comes up with these discussions.

gizmo

I don't care

Potatoeman wrote: »

Those are the voices that get the most coverage though and its not surprising there is a kick back. What seems to happen is someone criticising a game gets criticised themselves claims bullying so they can't be criticised. It's a very odd cycle. I hear Anita S is being invited to give her input on games in design.

If the "kicking back" had taken the form of the kind of reasoned criticism you generally find around here then we'd all be better off when discussing this subject matter.

As for Sarkeesian, no, thankfully she's not involved in the development of Mirrors Edge 2 which was what the initial rumor was based on.

Links234

I don't care

Calhoun wrote: »

Maybe you should but i think one of the points being made is that, you may want and demand a game be made with a transgender female protagonist but if the demand isn't there because existing gamers don't want to play it then folk shouldn't be forced into it.

On the other hand however the industry in itself should be taking every opportunity to broaden its market while still serving the existing need.

Who said anything about anyone being forced to play it? No, completely up to you with whatever you want to play. But the entire point of the thread was to ask whether people would be put off by the gender of protagonist, and we do have a fairly positive answer on this. So assuming that the hypothetical game is good, it's really enjoyable to play and has a great story, then why should the gender of the protagonist matter in that case?

kunst nugget

I don't care

Calhoun wrote: »

Maybe you should but i think one of the points being made is that, you may want and demand a game be made with a transgender female protagonist but if the demand isn't there because existing gamers don't want to play it then folk shouldn't be forced into it.

I'm unsure how you'd be forced into playing it. Will they mug you and demand you play the game or they'll knee cap you?

Calhoun wrote: »

On the other hand however the industry in itself should be taking every opportunity to broaden its market while still serving the existing need.

The problem I think now, after gamergate, is that any characters that are introduced that are considered minorities run the risk of accusations of tokenism or developers kowtowing to SJWs.

Calhoun

No

Sorry I was picking up on the comment from earlier thread where there was a point about forcing the industry to change.

I meant more of the context the industry should change in accordance with where they can make some decent money but would not like as pointed out before for folks demanding what content is allowed and what is not.

johnny_ultimate

The Steam forums for Her Story are morbidly fascinating. There are genuinely people out there who believe merely having a prominent female character is some sort of grevious crime against gaming or contrived tokenism. Which to me, honestly, beggars belief.

kunst nugget

I don't care

Potatoeman wrote: »

This unfortunately is the current atmosphere online. I didn't say someone here claimed it but it comes up with these discussions.

The problem then becomes that anything argued on this thread about this issue becomes subsumed by the wider argument and in essence what we could end up with is reductive sloganeering.

DeclanRe

No

Dixie Kong!!
(Mic Drop)

kunst nugget

I don't care

DeclanRe wrote: »

Dixie Kong!!
(Mic Drop)

Generally you're meant to say something full of resonance and infused with profundity before you drop the mic…

Links234

I don't care

kunst nugget wrote: »

There was something I found a tad wooden about her performance up until the scene in the gallery. That was extraordinarily well handled. She won me over with that scene.

Oh I was enthralled from the get go, I thought she was the best thing about the show. Her and Will's storylines were the ones I found most interesting by far, as they were the characters being active in overall plot of the show and were quite proactive in figuring things out and what was going on.

K.O.Kiki

Atari Jaguar

DeclanRe wrote: »

Dixie Kong!!
(Mic Drop)

She's slower than Diddy, so practically useless. :pac:

Robert ninja

The problem with what a lot of people are demanding when it comes to diversity in games is that games for the most part are terribly written. Often the story, narrative and characters are just there because they have to be to make some sense of the gameplay. If there is a character focus it's usually on them being 'cool' rather than actually well written. Which is fine by me. Dante and Bayonetta are fun.

So when people start asking for diversity in these games which are no more complex than the stories you see kids make up when playing with action men... you inevitably end up with token characters and tropes that people complain about even more! It pleases nobody. You want well written, diverse games? They do actually exist... and most people don't really fecking talk about them because they're niche, have odd gameplay, style or are just old or all the above. The latest ones that are pretty fair all around (Witcher 3 for example) get a lot of criticism for being sexist and racist (despite that being an ongoing topic in the books). You simply cannot win in this issue in my opinion. Does anyone read books? Then you know how they're milesahead of video games when it comes to these issues because they have to be. All there is is story and characters.

Making games more inclusive does not make them better games unless they're extremely story-focused and even then they have to be well written... which is something that in itself takes care of these issues as I just mentioned.

Honestly if this is really bothering anyone in a serious way... stop playing video games. They're not the medium you want right now. Go read some books. Watch a few good movies. Really good stories, characters, settings, themes etc. It's great, you'll have a good time I promise. If all you want is to reduce the breast size of video game characters because UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS, make all the women ugly (because we all know there's no pretty women around in real life) and all the men black or whatever the hell else people think is going to somehow make games more inclusive... then please go away. Yay... non whites punch people's head's off their spines too! Women burn genetically engineered zombies just as good as men! This woman is strong and independent because she just killed 100 random guys over the weekend looking for treasure. #progressive