Innocent victims of Ireland's gangland.

JustTheOne

Just reading about that lad shot last week who is suspected of been an innocent victim.

This seems to be happening a lot lately, but why is there not more public outcry and more been said by our politicians?

It's absolutely disgraceful that innocent people are getting caught up in gang feuds, but we seem shrug it off because it is happening so much.

fleet_admiral

The murder of innocent plumber Anthony Cambell shocked me then, and still does. A lad doing an honest days work and is just wiped out like that. I hope the animal that killed him is found and rots in hell

MathDebater

Donna Cleary too back in 2006. It's not a new thing. Coked up gangsters with a gun and the IQ of a coconut is a dangerous combination.

JustTheOne

Since then we.have had shane Geogahan, two lads in Tesco finglas, this lad last week.

Also not forgetting the kid last year.

More needs to be done.

JustTheOne

And that girl in tallaght last year sitting in a car.

And the lad paralysed who was shot outside the players lounge few years back, the list goes on.

frostyjacks

Why isn't there a public outcry? There's a little bit in the immediate aftermath, but it fizzles out. I think we're desensitised to gun crime over the last ten or so years. As for politicians, there's not many votes to be made going after gangs. They're focused on tax/health/education/jobs. It's left to the ordinary people on the ground to try and pick up the pieces.

Titzon Toast

fleet_admiral wrote: »

The murder of innocent plumber Anthony Cambell shocked me then, and still does. A lad doing an honest days work and is just wiped out like that. I hope the animal that killed him is found and rots in hell

He was caught apparently. He got locked up for something else though.

Streetwalker

Anyone who sits around at dinner parties and snorts coke or in the nightclub jacks is as responsible as the toe rag who sells or pushes the stuff that leads to incidents like this. Plenty of Gerry Ryan's out there who speak out of both sides of their mouth.

KilOit

JustTheOne wrote: »

And that girl in tallaght last year sitting in a car.

And the lad paralysed who was shot outside the players lounge few years back, the list goes on.

She was in the accompany of known scumbags and criminals

JustTheOne

KilOit wrote: »

She was in the accompany of known scumbags and criminals

Wasn't intended Target though was she?

tastyt

Gun crime is claiming innocent victims and our garda arrive on the scene with a little bottle of pepper spray and a baton. That is why these Scumbags have no fear, even if they get caught in the act these guys fire at garda, like that officer that was killed in Louth.

The armed response unit are too small and not effective enough. I know people will say " oh look at America they are armed and gun crime is through the roof " . That has nothing got to do with armed police, that's the stupid gun laws that let any dope carry.

There needs to be a deterrent, these scum run the streets and laugh at our police force because the Scumbags have more weapons than the national police.

Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire, the government should let the cops take back the streets.

Simon2015

JustTheOne wrote: »

Just reading about that lad shot last week who is suspected of been an innocent victim.

This seems to be happening a lot lately, but why is there not more public outcry and more been said by our politicians?

It's absolutely disgraceful that innocent people are getting caught up in gang feuds, but we seem shrug it off because it is happening so much.

The innocent guy who got shot mustn't be that important.

If somebody like katy french or gerry ryan was shot dead because of drugs you never hear the end of it.

Streetwalker

KilOit wrote: »

She was in the accompany of known scumbags and criminals

So are the Gardaí at times, do they deserve to be shot?

washman3

Streetwalker wrote: »

Anyone who sits around at dinner parties and snorts coke or in the nightclub jacks is as responsible as the toe rag who sells or pushes the stuff that leads to incidents like this. Plenty of Gerry Ryan's out there who speak out of both sides of their mouth.

Excellent post.
It always made great barstool banter in Limerick when the gangs were shooting each other. Suddenly when an innocent man was gunned down by mistake there was outcry, ironically from the same people.
What we have in this country is not a justice system, its a justice business, where an elite bunch of the judiciary make an absolute package from scumbags, at the expense of ordinary decent people.:mad:

tayto lover

fleet_admiral wrote: »

The murder of innocent plumber Anthony Cambell shocked me then, and still does. A lad doing an honest days work and is just wiped out like that. I hope the animal that killed him is found and rots in hell

Chances are that the person who killed Anthony has already had the same fate.

Turtyturd

MathDebater wrote: »

Donna Cleary too back in 2006. It's not a new thing. Coked up gangsters with a gun and the IQ of a coconut is a dangerous combination.

2006? :eek:

Where has time gone to? Know people on both sides of that, as would most people from the area and the lad involved (not the shooter) has continued to be a right scumbag.

Mint Aero

It's an epidemic which will devastate and shock this country to it's very core. How do we make the streets safer for ordinary decent people? Follow Mintys guide to good public living:

No more than two people under 30 wearing tracksuits can be seeing walking together in public.

No more than one person under 30 wearing a tracksuit can loiter in public.

Pursue the financial income source of a certain element in society.

Pay children under 17 from social welfare families 20 euro for every B grade they achieve in school.

Enroll children 12 - 17 in community projects, tidy town, small construction works, building low level walls, erecting signage etc stuff like that to improve an area.

Mandatory army service from age 15 to 18 during the summer unless suitable employment is found.

Mandatory army service for one year after school or instead of transition year for people who intend on going to colllege.

Mandatory 2 years army service for people who don't intend on going to colllege.

Mandatory army service of up to 5 years for school leavers who fail to find employment.

On the spot fine for wearing tracksuits in public if not accompanied by a gym bag.

On the spot fine for spitting in public.

fleet_admiral

washman3 wrote: »

Excellent post.
It always made great barstool banter in Limerick when the gangs were shooting each other. Suddenly when an innocent man was gunned down by mistake there was outcry, ironically from the same people.
What we have in this country is not a justice system, its a justice business, where an elite bunch of the judiciary make an absolute package from scumbags, at the expense of ordinary decent people.:mad:

I worked in a pub a few years that had one of the biggest scumbags in Dublin as a regular customer. I could name some of his rumoured, alleged 'clients' but I wont. These are people you see on the telly and in the papers on a daily basis.

tastyt

Legalise and control the supply of drugs. There goes the majority of these guys money and means to buy guns. And suddenly being in a gang that has **** all money isn't so attractive.

Polly Sonic

Streetwalker wrote: »

Anyone who sits around at dinner parties and snorts coke or in the nightclub jacks is as responsible as the toe rag who sells or pushes the stuff that leads to incidents like this.

Does this only apply to drugs?
Is everybody that wears counterfeit clothing responsible if a guy mistakenly kills some other guy because he thought it was the guy that ripped him off a few hundred quid?

4zn76tysfajdxp

Mint Aero wrote: »

It's an epidemic which will devastate and shock this country to it's very core. How do we make the streets safer for ordinary decent people? Follow Mintys guide to good public living...

I like the cut of your jib, Mint Aero. Though they should just ban tracksuits, to be honest.

Electric Sheep

Not from Dublin 4, not important.

RedemptionZ

A lot of sensationalism ITT. Ireland doesn't have a big gun problem, and using admittedly tragic and often horrific killings as examples of gun crime is disingenuous because while they never should have happened, they are isolated incidents.

If the issue of legality of drugs was sorted out we wouldn't have any of these killings, money is what drives these gangs, if the money wasn't there to be made they'd be out of luck. And then all they'd really have would be robbery, which is far easier to police.

Junkyard Tom

RedemptionZ wrote: »

A lot of sensationalism ITT.

Indeed. As tragic as the cases are they're incredibly rare and Ireland is one of the safest liberal democracies in the world in which to live.

JustTheOne

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Indeed. As tragic as the cases are they're incredibly rare and Ireland is one of the safest liberal democracies in the world in which to live.

One innocent victim is one too many imo.

looksee

What makes today's professional army a suitable babysitter for teenagers?

Penny Tration

Turtyturd wrote: »

2006? :eek:

Where has time gone to? Know people on both sides of that, as would most people from the area and the lad involved (not the shooter) has continued to be a right scumbag.

Mad isn't it. I did a reading at her funeral, because she'd gone to our school. Feels like no more than a few years ago.

No scumbags from the area have changed tbh. They either continue as they are, get shot or move away and continue elsewhere.

suicide_circus

JustTheOne wrote: »

One innocent victim is one too many imo.

Indeed but it's hardly an "epidemic" as suggested above

JustTheOne

suicide_circus wrote: »

Indeed but it's hardly an "epidemic" as suggested above

Well we do have the highest murder rates in Europe involving guns.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/dublin-has-become-the-gun-murder-capital-of-europe-69575922-237669061.html

Eugene Norman

Yes gun violence here is much higher than the UK for instance.

melissak

Heil mint aero!!!
Just kidding. I agree something needs to be done but hard lining has the potential to blow up in our faces epically... Having said that I don't really know what will fix it at this stage as it has already gone too far
. I think removing the source of income to such criminals by legalising at least soft drugs would be benificial, making an effort to educate kids from problem areasso they want to do better for themselves and stop this us versus them mentality by reducing the gap between rich and poor. Also i notice recently that more and more people are losing respect for the police, people who wouldn't be criminally inclined and this is worrying ..


uote="Mint Aero;95963458"]It's an epidemic which will devastate and shock this country to it's very core. How do we make the streets safer for ordinary decent people? Follow Mintys guide to good public living:

No more than two people under 30 wearing tracksuits can be seeing walking together in public.

No more than one person under 30 wearing a tracksuit can loiter in public.

Pursue the financial income source of a certain element in society.

Pay children under 17 from social welfare families 20 euro for every B grade they achieve in school.

Enroll children 12 - 17 in community projects, tidy town, small construction works, building low level walls, erecting signage etc stuff like that to improve an area.

Mandatory army service from age 15 to 18 during the summer unless suitable employment is found.

Mandatory army service for one year after school or instead of transition year for people who intend on going to colllege.

Mandatory 2 years army service for people who don't intend on going to colllege.

Mandatory army service of up to 5 years for school leavers who fail to find employment.

On the spot fine for wearing tracksuits in public if not accompanied by a gym bag.

On the spot fine for spitting in public.[/quote]

Little CuChulainn

tastyt wrote: »

Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire, the government should let the cops take back the streets.

There'd be too much paperwork. Just using the pepperspray comes with a ton of paper and a possible GSOC referral.

RedemptionZ wrote: »

A lot of sensationalism ITT. Ireland doesn't have a big gun problem, and using admittedly tragic and often horrific killings as examples of gun crime is disingenuous because while they never should have happened, they are isolated incidents.

If the issue of legality of drugs was sorted out we wouldn't have any of these killings, money is what drives these gangs, if the money wasn't there to be made they'd be out of luck. And then all they'd really have would be robbery, which is far easier to police.

The issue is sorted out. Drugs are illegal. That's how it stands. What you mean is "if the issue of drugs was fundamentally changed" but that's just an excuse. Drugs aren't a necessity. Nobody needs them to live their life. If you decide to use them then that's your choice but don't act like you don't consciously contribute to murder when you do so.

melissak

You don't usually fight fire with fire. Water, or that powdery stuff on oil or electricity. Fire usually causes more fire. Except in forest fires where they burn off vegetation ahead of the fire to starve it of fuel, I suppose.

tastyt wrote: »

Gun crime is claiming innocent victims and our garda arrive on the scene with a little bottle of pepper spray and a baton. That is why these Scumbags have no fear, even if they get caught in the act these guys fire at garda, like that officer that was killed in Louth.

The armed response unit are too small and not effective enough. I know people will say " oh look at America they are armed and gun crime is through the roof " . That has nothing got to do with armed police, that's the stupid gun laws that let any dope carry.

There needs to be a deterrent, these scum run the streets and laugh at our police force because the Scumbags have more weapons than the national police.

Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire, the government should let the cops take back the streets.

harry Bailey esq

Titzon Toast wrote: »

He was caught apparently. He got locked up for something else though.

Yeah 14 years i think.Wonder will he get out in 7 or 8 on TR or will they 'do a Gilligan' on him and make him serve every last day that they can legally detain him?

melissak

Who shot him?

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

Yeah 14 years i think.Wonder will he get out in 7 or 8 on TR or will they 'do a Gilligan' on him and make him serve every last day that they can legally detain him?

whisky_galore

looksee wrote: »

What makes today's professional army a suitable babysitter for teenagers?

Like they'll get professional training to use firearms then...:rolleyes:

DEFTLEFTHAND

At least Limerick seems to have quietened down a bit in recent years, Gardai did good work in hounding the likes of the McCarthy Dundons and Keane Collopys. The problem is that there is a never ending supply of new gurriers from these estates who'll fill the vacuum. It must be nigh on impossible to raise a kid in certain areas and keep them away from gangs.

melissak

I think it often works like this. Big criminal gives drugs to small criminal on credit. Small criminal has drugs confiscated or gets high on his supply or otherwise doesn't get the cash together to pay for said drugs and thus owes big criminal more money than he can afford to pay. Big criminal says he will cancel debt if small criminal kills other criminal that owes money or otherwise doesn't respect his authority. Small criminal shoots other criminal to prevent himself suffering same fate.
Also constant supply of cocaine might be a factor

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

At least Limerick seems to have quietened down a bit in recent years, Gardai did good work in hounding the likes of the McCarthy Dundons and Keane Collopys. The problem is that there is a never ending supply of new gurriers from these estates who'll fill the vacuum. It must be nigh on impossible to raise a kid in certain areas and keep them away from gangs.

myshirt

Melissak, if you read some very bad newspapers, then yes, that's how it happens.

melissak

Do you not think so. How else would relatively small time criminals be so stupid as to kill each other, ruining two lives. I know some people are stupid, others may have seen reservoir dogs too many times but more gun crime than england? I hope there is coersion or puppet mastering or i think we're in serious trouble. What do you think is the cause?

melissak wrote: »

I think it often works like this. Big criminal gives drugs to small criminal on credit. Small criminal has drugs confiscated or gets high on his supply or otherwise doesn't get the cash together to pay for said drugs and thus owes big criminal more money than he can afford to pay. Big criminal says he will cancel debt if small criminal kills other criminal

whisky_galore

melissak wrote: »

What do you think is the cause?

People want drugs, plain and simple, and they don't know or don't care where they come from.

melissak

Yes. So if drugs were legal and controlled this part of the problem would be reduced. Tip of the iceberg i know but this cant go on. This way is not working.

whisky_galore wrote: »

People want drugs, plain and simple, and they don't know or don't care where they come from.

,

whisky_galore

melissak wrote: »

Yes. So if drugs were legal and controlled this part of the problem would be reduced. Tip of the iceberg i know but this cant go on. This way is not working.
,

The 'war on drugs' will never be won, by conventional means, ever.

lakesider

If the gardai and politicians like that numpty Finian Mc grath would take their heads out of their holes and stop focusing on law abiding sports shooting enthusiasts in their crusade against "gun crime":rolleyes::rolleyes:..and put the focus on where the problems really lie..then maybe just maybe we could get our streets back again, but as long as the focus is firmly diverted onto the most law abiding section of the community thats not going to happen:mad:

Little CuChulainn

melissak wrote: »

Yes. So if drugs were legal and controlled this part of the problem would be reduced. Tip of the iceberg i know but this cant go on. This way is not working.
,

It might. But the black market for cigarettes, alcohol, laundered fuel, counterfeit goods and stolen goods is very robust so I don't see why drugs would be much different, espeically if they were taxed.

lakesider wrote: »

If the gardai and politicians like that numpty Finian Mc grath would take their heads out of their holes and stop focusing on law abiding sports shooting enthusiasts in their crusade against "gun crime":rolleyes::rolleyes:..and put the focus on where the problems really lie..then maybe just maybe we could get our streets back again, but as long as the focus is firmly diverted onto the most law abiding section of the community thats not going to happen:mad:

What nonsense are you on about? Can you point to one single use of Garda operational resources that target law abiding gun owners?

whisky_galore

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It might. But the black market for cigarettes, alcohol, laundered fuel, counterfeit goods and stolen goods is very robust so I don't see why drugs would be much different, espeically if they were taxed.

That is true, maybe wouldn't have the amount of small time hoods and middle men to carry out 'dirty work' for the big guys and the drug-fuelled violence that comes with that though.

BattleCorp

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

What nonsense are you on about? Can you point to one single use of Garda operational resources that target law abiding gun owners?

Having seen your comment above, I'm guessing that you aren't a licenced firearm owner as you would know that what was said isn't nonsense.

At the moment Ireland probably has the strictest licencing criteria for firearms in the European Union.

The Gardai aren't satisfied with that and want legal firearms ownership curtailed even more, even though legal guns aren't being used to commit crimes. The Gardai have proposals with the DOJ/Minister at present trying to get very draconian legislation put in place to take firearms out of the hands of law abiding, fully licenced and vetted target shooters.

The Minister has a committee in place at the moment weighing up whether to leave things as they are or to implement the draconian changes that the Gardai want.

Another waste of Garda resources was that in the last few years, the Gardai have been incorrectly refusing to renew licences for certain types of firearms. These refusals were challenged in court and the court agreed that approx. 650 of these refusals (90something %) were incorrect and that the Gardai didn't follow the law. These court cases have cost millions. That's a hell of a waste of resources for absolutely nothing.

Tell me this, what good will it do taking firearms from licenced law abiding target shooters when target shooters are taking part in a sport and not going around doing gangland hits?

More focus on scumbags and not sportspeople is what's needed.

Little CuChulainn

BattleCorp wrote: »

Having seen your comment above, I'm guessing that you aren't a licenced firearm owner as you would know that what was said isn't nonsense.

At the moment Ireland probably has the strictest licencing criteria for firearms in the European Union.

The Gardai aren't satisfied with that and want legal firearms ownership curtailed even more, even though legal guns aren't being used to commit crimes. The Gardai have proposals with the DOJ/Minister at present trying to get very draconian legislation put in place to take firearms out of the hands of law abiding, fully licenced and vetted target shooters.

The Minister has a committee in place at the moment weighing up whether to leave things as they are or to implement the draconian changes that the Gardai want.

Another waste of Garda resources was that in the last few years, the Gardai have been incorrectly refusing to renew licences for certain types of firearms. These refusals were challenged in court and the court agreed that approx. 650 of these refusals (90something %) were incorrect and that the Gardai didn't follow the law. These court cases have cost millions. That's a hell of a waste of resources for absolutely nothing.

Tell me this, what good will it do taking firearms from licenced law abiding target shooters when target shooters are taking part in a sport and not going around doing gangland hits?

More focus on scumbags and not sportspeople is what's needed.

It's not about misinterpreting the law, it's about opionion on who should have them and who should not. The courts are prepared to take chance on people the Gardaí are not. Same goes for PSV licences and betting shops. It's not a waste of resources to do this. And the suggested laws are not about taking firearms from people, they are about limiting the type of firearms available.

whisky_galore

BattleCorp wrote: »

At the moment Ireland probably has the strictest licencing criteria for firearms in the European Union.

And this is somehow a bad thing?

BattleCorp

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's not about misinterpreting the law, it's about opionion on who should have them and who should not. The courts are prepared to take chance on people the Gardaí are not. Same goes for PSV licences and betting shops. It's not a waste of resources to do this. And the suggested laws are not about taking firearms from people, they are about limiting the type of firearms available.

It's not about taking chances, it's about the law. The Gardai should apply the law as it is written, not apply it as they think fit or in a way to suit their agenda. Laws are supposed to be the same for everyone, both in applying them and in obeying them.

Your point about people who should not have firearms licences isn't really accurate as the court cases were people going for renewals. In other words, they already had the firearms, were using them for sporting purposes, hadn't been in trouble with the Gardai, and yet the Gardai want to take the firearms from them.

I'd agree with the Gardai taking the firearms from them if they were misbehaving, but they were just going about their sport, causing no harm to anybody.

I'll address your other point about not taking firearms off people, just limiting the type of firearms available. If I have a licenced firearm for target shooting and they ban the firearm, that's the firearm taken from me as I can no longer get a licence for it.

Banning firearms only affects firearms licence holders. Criminals don't bother with licences so banning firearms doesn't affect them.

Originally Posted by BattleCorp
At the moment Ireland probably has the strictest licencing criteria for firearms in the European Union.

whisky_galore wrote: »

And this is somehow a bad thing?

I'm not saying having the strictest firearms laws in Europe is necessarily a bad thing. The Gardai targeting (pardon the pun) law abiding target shooters is a bad thing. They are targeting the most highly vetted, law abiding section of the community by trying to restrict their firearms.

If target shooters were committing crimes, then yes, throw the book at them, but show me where target shooters are committing crimes?

Little CuChulainn

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's not about taking chances, it's about the law. The Gardai should apply the law as it is written, not apply it as they think fit or in a way to suit their agenda. Laws are supposed to be the same for everyone, both in applying them and in obeying them.

The law is the same for everyone. And that law grants a power for the Superintendent to make a decision based on all the facts available to him. A court may not agree with his assessment when they look at the application but that does not mean the assessment was wrong.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Your point about people who should not have firearms licences isn't really accurate as the court cases were people going for renewals. In other words, they already had the firearms, were using them for sporting purposes, hadn't been in trouble with the Gardai, and yet the Gardai want to take the firearms from them.

There's no possible way you can make that claim without access to court records and Garda files for the 650 cases you mentioned. You have to at least put some kind of source for this claim forward. I've been involved in processing firearm applications since the new systems were introduced and I know for a fact that you are wrong.

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'd agree with the Gardai taking the firearms from them if they were misbehaving, but they were just going about their sport, causing no harm to anybody.

There's more to it than that. If they've developed psych problems, drinking problems or begun associating with criminals then this will be taken into account. So will concerns about their state of mind or the veracity of their claims on the forms. There is also home security to look at. Is the firearm secure at the house or is there a lazy attitude towards that. Some of the applicants just don't bother submitting everything they are supposed to and then end up producing it in court. Exactly what kind of agenda do you think a local Superintendent has for stopping people just having sport? Where's the motivation to do this come from?

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'll address your other point about not taking firearms off people, just limiting the type of firearms available. If I have a licenced firearm for target shooting and they ban the firearm, that's the firearm taken from me as I can no longer get a licence for it.

That's true. Same problem with drugs.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Banning firearms only affects firearms licence holders. Criminals don't bother with licences so banning firearms doesn't affect them.

That's completely incorrect. If a Garda stops a person with a firearm then that person can be arrested on the spot if they do not have a licence for it. In a free for all system, you can't do much about the gun until it kills someone. In Ireland you can take it from them beforehand. I suggest you Google firearm seizures for this year, particularly that one a few weeks ago. Tell me how many sports hobbiest you find in the news having their guns seized.