Israelis/Zionists crap themselves about success of BDS in Ireland

Madd Finn

This video made me laugh. Out loud.

Apparently Ireland is "Ground Zero" for the BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) movement which aims to put economic and cultural pressure on Israel to stop its policy of encroachment on what is left of Palestine and its treatment of Palestinians in the areas it occupies.

Why are Israel and its supporters so concerned with the legitimate and nonviolent actions of some Irish companies? How much business do we actually do with Israel? More to the point, how much do we do with Iran, North Korea or Sudan?

I have been made aware of several stories in recent times emanating from Israeli or Israel-friendly publications, which aim to prove that Ireland is a nasty anti-semitic place.

One recent story, from the Jerusalem Post, (I think) tripped itself up by describing how a family of American born Israelis went on holiday to Ireland and the father insisted that they pass themselves off as American to avoid hassle. After a few days of this one of the children decided that they could no longer continue the masquerade and started telling people they were in fact Israeli. And the reaction? Er.. nothing. People were more interested than anything else. Certainly they experienced no animosity or nastiness!!

Even as paranoid and biased an outfit as the Anti Defamation League (who see antisemites lurking under every bed with a paranoia that would have made Joe McCarthy's Red Scare movement blush) lists Ireland as below the average of anti-semites in Western Europe and gives us a ranking similar to the Americas overall.

So why do the likes of Mr Horowitz put so much effort into deprecating Ireland's attitude to Jews and Israel?

I can only surmise that the effect of BDS is beginning to bite. Just as sporting, business and cultural boycotts of South Africa eventually bit that apartheid regime hard and forced change.

Take it from someone who was around at the time: the arguments against boycotting RSA were very similar to those used by Israel and its friends today: what about Russia, what about African despots, what about all the other nasty bastards in the world? You're all such hypocrites!!!!!!

I think this shows that Israel is hurting. And the nonviolent, voting with your purse and wallet approach is paying dividends.

And all without a single suicide bombing or other "terrorist" act.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iZjuiKZ2ho

jank

I can only surmise that the effect of BDS is beginning to bite..

Really? How do you come to that conclusion when you do not even provide one source to support that summary apart from unverified anecdotal 'stories'.

Madd Finn

1. Look up the meaning of the word "to surmise". I put it forward as a suggestion, that's all.

2. If you have a problem with "unverified anecdotal stories" then your beef should really be with Mr Horowitz. He appears to have gone along to a number of mom and pop stores and asked them to consider taking his purported wares from N Korea, Sudan etc etc

jank

Madd Finn wrote: »

1. Look up the meaning of the word "to surmise". I put it forward as a suggestion, that's all.

So why did you put it forward as a basis in fact when its just a lose soap-boxing opinion with no basis in evidence or fact.

TBH, this should be moved to the Cafe such is the lack of any real debate.

johnnyskeleton

jank wrote: »

TBH, this should be moved to the Cafe such is the lack of any real debate.

we are happy to keep it for the moment. However, please use the report post feature in future.

Madd Finn

OK.

I am mystified as to why Israelis and their supporters, such as Mr Horowitz linked to above, are so interested in Irish attitudes to Israel. And also why so many of them seem to assume that as a country we have a dangerously hostile viewpoint towards them.

As evidence of this I can point not only to Mr Horowitz's "Ground Zero" documentary linked above but also to articles such as this one and this one both of which appeared in the Jerusalem Post, Israel's English language newspaper, in recent years.

The latter article is the one I referenced earlier about an Israeli family masquerading as Americans (which they were originally) during a holiday in Ireland because the father assumed that people would be hostile. His slightly less paranoid daughter disabused him of this. (Read the article for more)

Then of course there were the juvenile actions of the local Israeli embassy playing around with Photoshop to disseminate anti-Arab and anti-Muslim images during last year's Gaza conflict. ("What did you do in the war, Daddy?" "Meh, I fecked about heroically on my laptop")

I'm curious as to why they care.

After all, prodigious though it certainly is, ours is a tiny Jewish community. It is, so far as I can tell, well respected and rarely bothered. It has contributed out of all proportion to our cultural, political and financial life but it has never numbered more than about 5-6000 people at any one time and is now I believe less than about 2000 strong.

Our military is tiny and we are a neutral country.

Trade between Israel and Ireland is less than half a billion US$ a year, combined, according to the Israeli Ministry for Trade and Labour and is mostly taken up with elecronics and medical goods. I suspect (or surmise:)) that much of that is accounted for by the multinational sectors in either country. Intel has a strong presence in each.

We have very little real experience of antisemitism. OK so there was the Limerick Pogrom of more than 100 years ago which is a stain but it can be offset by the acknowledged support for the Jewish people from a range of prominent Irish personalities ranging from O'Connell through Michael Davitt to Eamon de Valera. (Yes. De Valera, the one who signed the Book of Condolences for Hitler. He was one of the first premiers to visit Israel after it achieved independence when few other Europeans deemed it politic to do so. While he was there he caught up with his old mate Rabbi Herzog, former Irish Chief Rabbi known as the Sinn Fein Rabbi whose son became president of Israel and whose grandson is now the leader of the opposition)

Ireland has supported Israel in the United Nations on many of the really important resolutions it faced. For example during the debate on the "zionism is racism" motion when the Israeli delegation was led by one of the aforementioned Messrs Herzog. Check out his Dublin accent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb0X7hqQsqE

Now it's probably fair to say that a lot of Irish people, maybe even a majority, sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians. Why wouldn't we? They are the ones most wronged by the situation in Israel. They are the ones being subjected to the most ruthless heavy handed subjugation by one of the world's strongest military powers because they refuse to knuckle under to a brutal dispossession of their lands and national identity.

But that is NOT an anti semitic viewpoint. Indeed, inasmuch as Ireland recognizes Israel's existence and maintains diplomatic relations we are a pro-Zionist country. I would even argue that arriving at a just and realistic two-state solution is in Israel's long term interest because at the end of the day it doesn't matter a damn what people in small country thousands of miles away think of you; it's how you get on with your neighbours that is the only guarantee of peaceful existence.

What characterizes Irish popular attitudes to the middle east is vicariousness. Irish people don't hate Israelis, or Palestinians. Most of us don't know any Israelis or Palestinians. We hate other Irish people who hold contrary views to their own on who is more deserving of their support. A bit like hating local supporters of Manchester United or Arsenal.

The vehemence of an interest combined with total disinterest.

kidneyfan

Madd Finn wrote: »

OK.

I am mystified as to why Israelis and their supporters, such as Mr Horowitz linked to above, are so interested in Irish attitudes to Israel. And also why so many of them seem to assume that as a country we have a dangerously hostile viewpoint towards them.

As evidence of this I can point not only to Mr Horowitz's "Ground Zero" documentary linked above but also to articles such as this one and this one both of which appeared in the Jerusalem Post, Israel's English language newspaper, in recent years.

The latter article is the one I referenced earlier about an Israeli family masquerading as Americans (which they were originally) during a holiday in Ireland because the father assumed that people would be hostile. His slightly less paranoid daughter disabused him of this. (Read the article for more)

That is hilarious. He won't buy his round, he had alot of conversations with people about discounts and he puts in his column in a national paper a tip about saving €6.50 on parking.

IrishTrajan

Madd Finn wrote: »

Trade between Israel and Ireland is less than half a billion US$ a year, combined, according to the Israeli Ministry for Trade and Labour and is mostly taken up with elecronics and medical goods. I suspect (or surmise:)) that much of that is accounted for by the multinational sectors in either country. Intel has a strong presence in each.

How can you say the BDS is having any affect when the trade between us is that small anyway?


Maybe it is the simple fact we're one of the few countries in Western Europe who actually wouldn't ride to their aid, so any time we condemn them, it makes it look like we're on the other side?

As much as Germany, or France, or Britain condemns their actions, you know they're not actually going to let Israel be dismantled, the later two have actually displayed their commitment already in the Suez Crisis.

Ireland on the other hand... might, if it leads to a solving of the Palestinian crisis.

I don't know about you, but when we condemn Israel's treatment of the Palestinians quite often and quite vocally, but then we're silent on Saudi Arabia or Iran or Hamas' treatment of civilians, it might give the impression we're on the opposing side.


Also, didn't we turn away a great many thousands of Jews out of fear of ethnic strife within the country during the Second World War? Hardly a shine on our reputation, to be fair.

valor rorghulis

always think the effect of boycotts on South Africa was wildly overstated. White South Africans changed because they realised how outnumbered they were.

Nodin

valor rorghulis wrote: »

always think the effect of boycotts on South Africa was wildly overstated. White South Africans changed because they realised how outnumbered they were.

They always realised they were outnumbered - that's why there was apartheid in the first place.

JRant

valor rorghulis wrote: »

always think the effect of boycotts on South Africa was wildly overstated. White South Africans changed because they realised how outnumbered they were.

Once the Americans started divesting from SA it was check-mate.

It'll be the same with Isreal. As long as big brother keeps backing them up nothing will change.

Gringo180

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I don't know about you, but when we condemn Israel's treatment of the Palestinians quite often and quite vocally, but then we're silent on Saudi Arabia or Iran or Hamas' treatment of civilians, it might give the impression we're on the opposing side.

Saudi Arabia and Iran were not illegally occupying another peoples land the last time I checked.

IrishTrajan

Gringo180 wrote: »

Saudi Arabia and Iran were not illegally occupying another peoples land the last time I checked.

No, you're right, instead Iran was training people to shoot and bomb US troops in Iraq, and actively support Hezbollah who have killed citizens in Europe with car bombs... And the Saudis just support Boko Haram, and IS, and Jabhat Al-Nusra who behead people and rape and murder children.


Yeah, thank god for legality!

Gringo180

IrishTrajan wrote: »

No, you're right, instead Iran was training people to shoot and bomb US troops in Iraq, and actively support Hezbollah who have killed citizens in Europe with car bombs... And the Saudis just support Boko Haram, and IS, and Jabhat Al-Nusra who behead people and rape and murder children.


Yeah, thank god for legality!

Can you back up your claims about Iran please. If anything there the ones trying to eradicate Isis in the region while the Brits were arming them in Syria. Saudi Arabia are the worst of the lot but that doesn't stop the U.S and Britain being best of friends with them and all in the name of $$££.

But as I have said, Israel is an illegal occupier so obviously the Irish will support them as we know all too well what its like to be invaded and butchered.

johnnyskeleton

Mod: In the interests of sanity, can we stick to the topic at hand i.e. the BDS movement and whether Israel is scared of them. There are many thread on Israel and the "which is worse Israel or Iran" type of argument always derails them. Curiously, when those posts are separated into a new thread people lose interest. So back on topic please, but feel free to start a new thread if theres any substance to the Israel/Iran comparison.

IrishTrajan

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod: In the interests of sanity, can we stick to the topic at hand i.e. the BDS movement and whether Israel is scared of them. There are many thread on Israel and the "which is worse Israel or Iran" type of argument always derails them. Curiously, when those posts are separated into a new thread people lose interest. So back on topic please, but feel free to start a new thread if theres any substance to the Israel/Iran comparison.

Are we able to discuss the history of Palestine/Israel? If not, please remove the other part of this post.

Gringo180 wrote: »

Can you back up your claims about Iran please. If anything there the ones trying to eradicate Isis in the region while the Brits were arming them in Syria. Saudi Arabia are the worst of the lot but that doesn't stop the U.S and Britain being best of friends with them and all in the name of $$££.

Simply as a matter of discourse/to end the discussion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency_(2003%E2%80%9311)#Shia_Militias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency_(2003%E2%80%9311)#Iranian_influence

Gringo180 wrote: »

But as I have said, Israel is an illegal occupier so obviously the Irish will support them as we know all too well what its like to be invaded and butchered.

Oh, come on. Hamas/Fatah have terrible human rights records and they started the conflict. If we're going to go by a "the invader is evil, Ireland supports the defender", maybe you should read about the history of the conflict? Palestine invaded Israel, it just so happens that Israel won. This is not to say Israel is faultless in this. They're quite clearly led by nutjobs like Netanyahu, and those settlers are proper fécking mental (so much so that the people I've spoken to in the IDF actually despise them).

Gringo180

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Are we able to discuss the history of Palestine/Israel? If not, please remove the other part of this post.



Simply as a matter of discourse/to end the discussion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency_(2003%E2%80%9311)#Shia_Militias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency_(2003%E2%80%9311)#Iranian_influence



Oh, come on. Hamas/Fatah have terrible human rights records and they started the conflict. If we're going to go by a "the invader is evil, Ireland supports the defender", maybe you should read about the history of the conflict? Palestine invaded Israel, it just so happens that Israel won. This is not to say Israel is faultless in this. They're quite clearly led by nutjobs like Netanyahu, and those settlers are proper fécking mental (so much so that the people I've spoken to in the IDF actually despise them).

Wikipedia :pac:

You should go back in time a bit. When the British tried to halt Jewish immigration into Palestine in the 40's the Irgun and Lehi started there terror campaign in the region. They not only massacred the Arab population but also scores of British soldiers and U.N diplomats in the process. How can you say Palestine invaded Israel? It was the hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants that invaded Palestine throughout the 2nd World War and the Balfour declaration that started this conflict.

IrishTrajan

Gringo180 wrote: »

Wikipedia :pac:

You are aware their claims are backed with sources down the end, yes?

Gringo180 wrote: »

You should go back in time a bit. When the British tried to halt Jewish immigration into Palestine in the 40's the Irgun and Lehi started there terror campaign in the region. They not only massacred the Arab population but also scores of British soldiers and U.N diplomats in the process. How can you say Palestine invaded Israel? It was the hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants that invaded Palestine throughout the 2nd World War and the Balfour declaration that started this conflict.

Jewish immigration started from the 1880s/90s. The Jewish population was some 450,000 by the time the British actually restricted Jewish immigration into Palestine. Irgun came about in the 1930s... After Palestinian Arabs had rioted in 1929 and killed or injured over 400 Jews. The third riot in a decade. Irgun was also set up in 1931... A year after Izz Al-Qassam's Black Hand was set up to drive the Jewish out.


Also, the Jewish immigrants hardly "invaded" Palestine throughout the second world war. They were kind of, you know, gassed and murdered in the millions across Europe.

Gringo180

IrishTrajan wrote: »

You are aware their claims are backed with sources down the end, yes?



Jewish immigration started from the 1880s/90s. The Jewish population was some 450,000 by the time the British actually restricted Jewish immigration into Palestine. Irgun came about in the 1930s... After Palestinian Arabs had rioted in 1929 and killed or injured over 400 Jews. The third riot in a decade. Irgun was also set up in 1931... A year after Izz Al-Qassam's Black Hand was set up to drive the Jewish out.


Also, the Jewish immigrants hardly "invaded" Palestine throughout the second world war. They were kind of, you know, gassed and murdered in the millions across Europe.

Jewish population in Palestine in the late 1880's/90s was 24,000. Fast forward to 1929 and the Jewish population had increased by about 800% to 174,000. Do you not think that these riots where caused by the huge influx of Jews into Arab land? Arabs and Jews had lived in peace for 100's of years.

But along came the Balfour declaration which states the following.

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

So obviously the Arabs were going to feel threatened by this and the huge immigration into there homeland.

If the U.S made a declaration tomorrow that there will be a homeland created for a certain religion in Northern Ireland do you think the people living there would just up sticks and leave peacefully?


Yes the Jews were persecuted all over Europe, but why should the Arabs in Palestine have to pay for that? Why wasn't there a Jewish state created in Germany, Russia or Poland for instance?

IrishTrajan

Gringo180 wrote: »

Jewish population in Palestine in the late 1880's/90s was 24,000. Fast forward to 1929 and the Jewish population had increased by about 800% to 174,000. Do you not think that these riots where caused by the huge influx of Jews into Arab land? Arabs and Jews had lived in peace for 100's of years.

Yeah, so long as the Jews were seen as Dhimmi in the eyes of the law. The Ottoman's banned that, yet the Arabs kept acting as though it was in force.

Gringo180 wrote: »

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I'd draw your attention to the highlighted part.

Gringo180 wrote: »

So obviously the Arabs were going to feel threatened by this and the huge immigration into there homeland.

So when the Palestinians feel threatened, violence is justifiable. But when Palestine actually starts wars and loses, then launches rockets at Israeli schools, the Israeli occupation is unjustifiable?

Gringo180 wrote: »

If the U.S made a declaration tomorrow that there will be a homeland created for a certain religion in Northern Ireland do you think the people living there would just up sticks and leave peacefully?

That is a false equivalency in and of itself. Britain controlled Palestine, the US does not control Northern Ireland. A better comparison would be the US announcing such a move in Puerto Rico, or Guam.

Would the people there attack the newcomers and try to murder them? I'd be quite doubtful.

Gringo180 wrote: »

Yes the Jews were persecuted all over Europe, but why should the Arabs in Palestine have to pay for that? Why wasn't there a Jewish state created in Germany, Russia or Poland for instance?

You're not heard of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, then? Asking why the Jews aren't in Germany or Poland, when it was those two countries that carried out the atrocities is a bit silly, no?

Gringo180

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Yeah, so long as the Jews were seen as Dhimmi in the eyes of the law. The Ottoman's banned that, yet the Arabs kept acting as though it was in force.



I'd draw your attention to the highlighted part.



So when the Palestinians feel threatened, violence is justifiable. But when Palestine actually starts wars and loses, then launches rockets at Israeli schools, the Israeli occupation is unjustifiable?



That is a false equivalency in and of itself. Britain controlled Palestine, the US does not control Northern Ireland. A better comparison would be the US announcing such a move in Puerto Rico, or Guam.

Would the people there attack the newcomers and try to murder them? I'd be quite doubtful.



You're not heard of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, then? Asking why the Jews aren't in Germany or Poland, when it was those two countries that carried out the atrocities is a bit silly, no?

They were being dispossessed and ultimately robbed of there land. Under international law people have the right to fight back through whatever means possible against there occupiers.

Britain controls Northern Ireland so if they said 1 million Syrian refugees can start there own country in Derry and Armagh do you think the natives would be allow it? You know very well where I am coming from. No way would it be allowed and rightfully so.

Why did the Jews have to go to Palestine I ask? Is it because some book written 2000 years ago said it was there land?

Why dont Israel obey international law and leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem and lift the siege on Gaza and give the Palestinians there own state?

IrishTrajan

Gringo180 wrote: »

They were being dispossessed and ultimately robbed of there land. Under international law people have the right to fight back through whatever means possible against there occupiers.

The Jewish were buying the land, they weren't stealing it. The Palestinians largely didn't care about the Jewish wanting to buy land, until they realized the Israelis didn't want to live as Dhimmi under them.

Gringo180 wrote: »

Britain controls Northern Ireland so if they said 1 million Syrian refugees can start there own country in Derry and Armagh do you think the natives would be allow it? You know very well where I am coming from. No way would it be allowed and rightfully so.

There actually was a plan along those lines, whereby the British were going to import 5 million people from Hong Kong so they didn't have to live under China's rule, I think they were going to build a city near Coleraine.

And the difference between the Protestant plantation and the Israeli immigration is that the Israelis want to treat everyone equally under their Government, as opposed to the Protestants who actively supported discrimination against Catholics. As far as I know, there's no discrimination in Israel.

Gringo180 wrote: »

Why did the Jews have to go to Palestine I ask? Is it because some book written 2000 years ago said it was there land?

Well a lot of them came to Ireland and we refused them, the rest of the continent kind of hated them, and a great many Jews do live in the US.

And you're going to attack their religion with a strawman?

Gringo180 wrote: »

Why dont Israel obey international law and leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem and lift the siege on Gaza and give the Palestinians there own state?

Israel kind of tried that before, when they gave Gaza to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan. You know what happened, right? Those people they gave the land to invaded and tried to eradicate them again.

Why doesn't Hamas and Fatah obey international law and stop murdering Israeli children? Why doesn't Hamas obey international law and stop murdering homosexuals? - We can both play the illegality card, my friend.

johnnyskeleton

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Are we able to discuss the history of Palestine/Israel? If not, please remove the other part of this post.

Mod: You can talk about the history so long as its pertinent to the topic at hand i.e. BDS movement. The last few posts, facinating though they may be, are not really advancing the topic. if you want to discuss the history of a country there other fora for that.

And please dont question moderation on thread - use PM or reported post

wes

Well seeing as the US are trying to make provisions against BDS against Israel a part of the already loathsome TTIP "trade deal", then I think it more than fair to say that BDS has them running scared. If it wasn't having an effect, then such extreme measures, such as making provisions against BDS in a secret undemocratic trade deal.

It is of course to be expected that the US would try and criminalize even peaceful resistance by Palestinians groups, which imho shows clearly the problem wasn't that Palestinians resistance was violent, but that the resisted at all.

riffmongous

wes wrote: »

Well seeing as the US are trying to make provisions against BDS against Israel a part of the already loathsome TTIP "trade deal", then I think it more than fair to say that BDS has them running scared. If it wasn't having an effect, then such extreme measures, such as making provisions against BDS in a secret undemocratic trade deal.

It is of course to be expected that the US would try and criminalize even peaceful resistance by Palestinians groups, which imho shows clearly the problem wasn't that Palestinians resistance was violent, but that the resisted at all.

Eugh, as if there weren't enough reasons to protest against TTIP already

jank

wes wrote: »

Well seeing as the US are trying to make provisions against BDS against Israel a part of the already loathsome TTIP "trade deal", then I think it more than fair to say that BDS has them running scared. If it wasn't having an effect, then such extreme measures, such as making provisions against BDS in a secret undemocratic trade deal.

It is of course to be expected that the US would try and criminalize even peaceful resistance by Palestinians groups, which imho shows clearly the problem wasn't that Palestinians resistance was violent, but that the resisted at all.

Care to show an example of this?

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Care to show an example of this?

Examples

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2403303.stm

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/americas/19568-president-obama-signs-law-targeting-boycotts-of-israel

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Examples

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2403303.stm

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/americas/19568-president-obama-signs-law-targeting-boycotts-of-israel

Nope, an article from the BBC that is over 13 years old or from an online pro-hamas organisation is not examples of what was said.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Nope, an article from the BBC that is over 13 years old or from an online pro-hamas organisation is not examples of what was said.

The US law has not changed.

I await with interest why the same information in these articles as was contained in the previous can be dismissed

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/economic-warfare-against-israel-can-fire-back-eu-316230

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/lauder-anti-bds-measure-adopted-by-us-congress-is-major-defeat-for-israel-boycott-movement-6-3-2015

http://www.salon.com/2015/05/07/what_israel_fears_with_the_successes_of_the_boycott_divestment_and_sanctions_movement/

DarkyHughes

Madd Finn wrote: »

This video made me laugh. Out loud.

Apparently Ireland is "Ground Zero" for the BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) movement which aims to put economic and cultural pressure on Israel to stop its policy of encroachment on what is left of Palestine and its treatment of Palestinians in the areas it occupies.

Why are Israel and its supporters so concerned with the legitimate and nonviolent actions of some Irish companies? How much business do we actually do with Israel? More to the point, how much do we do with Iran, North Korea or Sudan?

I have been made aware of several stories in recent times emanating from Israeli or Israel-friendly publications, which aim to prove that Ireland is a nasty anti-semitic place.

One recent story, from the Jerusalem Post, (I think) tripped itself up by describing how a family of American born Israelis went on holiday to Ireland and the father insisted that they pass themselves off as American to avoid hassle. After a few days of this one of the children decided that they could no longer continue the masquerade and started telling people they were in fact Israeli. And the reaction? Er.. nothing. People were more interested than anything else. Certainly they experienced no animosity or nastiness!!

Even as paranoid and biased an outfit as the Anti Defamation League (who see antisemites lurking under every bed with a paranoia that would have made Joe McCarthy's Red Scare movement blush) lists Ireland as below the average of anti-semites in Western Europe and gives us a ranking similar to the Americas overall.

So why do the likes of Mr Horowitz put so much effort into deprecating Ireland's attitude to Jews and Israel?

I can only surmise that the effect of BDS is beginning to bite. Just as sporting, business and cultural boycotts of South Africa eventually bit that apartheid regime hard and forced change.

Take it from someone who was around at the time: the arguments against boycotting RSA were very similar to those used by Israel and its friends today: what about Russia, what about African despots, what about all the other nasty bastards in the world? You're all such hypocrites!!!!!!

I think this shows that Israel is hurting. And the nonviolent, voting with your purse and wallet approach is paying dividends.

And all without a single suicide bombing or other "terrorist" act.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iZjuiKZ2ho

"Home to Lucky Charms" I can never find Lucky Charms anywhere in Ireland.

It's nice to see Irish business are so dedicated to the BDS tactic. But the 100's of billions of dollars the US gives Israel will probably counter that.

But still it's nice to know so many people hate the Zionist terrorist state.

DarkyHughes

Gringo180 wrote: »

They were being dispossessed and ultimately robbed of there land. Under international law people have the right to fight back through whatever means possible against there occupiers.

Britain controls Northern Ireland so if they said 1 million Syrian refugees can start there own country in Derry and Armagh do you think the natives would be allow it? You know very well where I am coming from. No way would it be allowed and rightfully so.

Why did the Jews have to go to Palestine I ask? Is it because some book written 2000 years ago said it was there land?

Why dont Israel obey international law and leave the West Bank and East Jerusalem and lift the siege on Gaza and give the Palestinians there own state?

After WW2 & the Holocaust there was millions of Jewish refugees. Who was responsible for the Holocaust? White Europeans & mainly Christians & instead of doing the right thing which would be to give Jews a state somewhere in the Western world they sent them to the Middle East, now thats anti-Semitic. And by doing that they also punished Arabs the people who had nothing to do with the Jewish suffering. Jews & Muslims lived in peace for centuries until the West got involved. In fact Jews & Muslims got along so well that when Christianity came back to Spain when the Muslims left the Jews left with them for protection because the Jews were afraid of the antisemitism that would be unleashed on them in Europe & Muslims never persecuted the Jews but the Zionist sure as hell are persecuting the native Muslims of Palestine. And I just think that's very sad to see.

And people like IrishTrajan are blaming the victims instead of the victim makers & spouting Israeli propaganda which is just low.

DarkyHughes

Gringo180 wrote: »

Wikipedia :pac:

You should go back in time a bit. When the British tried to halt Jewish immigration into Palestine in the 40's the Irgun and Lehi started there terror campaign in the region. They not only massacred the Arab population but also scores of British soldiers and U.N diplomats in the process. How can you say Palestine invaded Israel? It was the hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants that invaded Palestine throughout the 2nd World War and the Balfour declaration that started this conflict.

And they really massacred them. It was one of the most vile terror campaigns of the 20th century. The hanging of two British officers from trees & the King David Hotel bombing which killed almost 100 people are the acts that stick out in my mind most. It was like a ISIS campaign. Now those terrorist are in charge of a state, therefore it's a terrorist state.

And IrishTrajan nobody is saying Hamas or Fatah are saints put compared to Israel there almost saints.

DarkyHughes

And IrishTrojan you like using Wiki so much.

2,204 Palestinians civilians in the 2nd Intifada were killed & 914 Palestinians killed were unknowns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada#Casualties <- those Palestinians are like the heroes of the 1944 Warsaw uprising.

In the 2008/2009 Gaza massacre just under 1000 Palestinian civilians were butchered. Over 50,000 Gaza residents were displaced, 4000 homes in Gaza were destroyed & $2 Billion worth of damage was done to Gaza. Do you remember the the 1993 IRA Bishopsgate bomb which cost the city of London 1 billion pounds that even made the British government think about trying a way to end the war with the Irish Republic because it was costing them too much money. Well imagine double that in a tiny place like Gaza that is blockaded & barely has an economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_%282008%E2%80%9309%29#Civilians_versus_combatants

In the 2014 Gaza massacre around 1,500 Palestinian civilians were killed & around 7,000 of them were injured.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Palestinian


That ^ is the actions of a rogue terrorist state.
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Madd Finn

IrishTrajan wrote: »

How can you say the BDS is having any affect when the trade between us is that small anyway?

Well it could always be bigger. Isn't that the point? And I can't remember the last time I saw any oranges I bought in an Irish supermarket stamped as Israeli origin.

There was a time, back in my distant childhood, when it seemed as if ALL oranges sold here bore the brand name Jaffa. In fact, so prevalent was it at the time (the 1970s) that Jaffa became a slang term for an Ulster protestant (Jaffas - Oranges - Geddit?)

I'm not sure whether Jaffa is still used in such a manner. It's been a long time since I was Up North. Or saw a Jaffa orange (small o).

IrishTrajan wrote: »

As much as Germany, or France, or Britain condemns their actions, you know they're not actually going to let Israel be dismantled, the later two have actually displayed their commitment already in the Suez Crisis.

Yeah. Right. The British and French invaded Suez to prop up Israel. Nothing to do with the fact that their joint ownership of the Suez Canal had been usurped all of a sudden by Nasser's unilateral nationalisation of same a few months previously! How can you be so naive?

And who is talking about Israel being dismantled? Unless you imply that a two-state solution, to which Israel long played lip service and now under that nice Mr Netanyahu they admit that they won't consider any more, is "dismantling Israel".

Israel is going to have to make concessions, serious concessions to the Palestinians, or else carry on with the inevitable and increasingly impossible either to deny or justify ethnic cleansing, forced land appropriation and massacre of Palestinian civilians. There are many Israelis who are quite happy to go along with that and bear the consequences of a permanently militarised state.

One of which is the growing enmity of the civilised world and the steady growth in popularity of movements like BDS.

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I don't know about you, but when we condemn Israel's treatment of the Palestinians quite often and quite vocally, but then we're silent on Saudi Arabia or Iran or Hamas' treatment of civilians, it might give the impression we're on the opposing side.

This is exactly what pro-Apartheid supporters used to say about similar campaigns of disobedience against S AFrica. Don't you remember?

And frankly this argument gives me the hump. Because it is totally contradictory to your other arguments.

You started off by enlightening us all about historical events, the implication being that we are ignorant of the context and too quick to shout "what about the children!" when we see kids being killed and maimed in Gaza. We should be looking at cause, not symptoms, you imply, and the cause is clearly the savagery and intransigence of the Arabs, if only we'd bother to find out.

But then when people show that they ARE well read on the subject and do know much of the background and can point to the flaws in the Israeli argument you get all "What about Darfur/Iran/Saudi Arabia/Central African republic/whatever?")

The correct response to somebody inviting you to contribute to a cancer charity is not to say "What are you doing for spina bifida or homelessness, you hypocrite?"

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Also, didn't we turn away a great many thousands of Jews out of fear of ethnic strife within the country during the Second World War? Hardly a shine on our reputation, to be fair.

Two things in response to that:
1) We were hardly alone in doing that
2) In fact the largest Jewish community recorded in an Irish census in the 20th century was in 1946 (or thereabouts) Straight after the war. So clearly, we did allow more in than we usually did. Of course, we probably weren't turning away too many before the war because there wasn't exactly a flood wanting to settle here.

But I will concede, it's not anything for us to be proud of.

johnnyskeleton

DarkyHughes wrote: »

After WW2 & the Holocaust there was millions of Jewish refugees. Who was responsible for the Holocaust? White Europeans & mainly Christians & instead of doing the right thing which would be to give Jews a state somewhere in the Western world they sent them to the Middle East, now thats anti-Semitic.

I'm sorry but this is not an accurate summary of the history of Israel. The Western governments didnt send Jewish people to Israel they went themselves. Indeed, the British government, then in charge of mandatory Palestine refused to allow holocaust survivors into Palestine. See, for example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_internment_camps

Jews & Muslims lived in peace for centuries until the West got involved....Muslims never persecuted the Jews

Also untrue or at least a very partisan narrative of history. For example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

KingBrian2

These organisations are taking a moral position via Palestine which is currently occupied territory. Israel is illegally settling in Arab land. This is world renown just because Republicans and Democrats chose to ignore that fact does not justify Israeli actions. A dispute between Israel and Arab going back a long way and has still not been resolved.

Son Of A Vidic

I'm pleased to see a deal being reached. Obama's foreign policy has had little too celebrate and he may have had no choice. But I'll still commend him for seeing it through.

As expected, poor Bibi is completely distraught. The man really has some brass neck and he appears to be completely bereft of any sense of irony, when he speaks of terror during his speech.

Now we can move on to inspecting and sorting out Israel's illicit nuclear weapons and it's secretive programme. Yes I know, that's only wishful thinking on my part.

landofthetree

Anybody else that that Israel are a bit obsessed with Ireland because of our success with US investment?

They seem to pick on any little thing they can find when it come to us?

Madd Finn

landofthetree wrote: »

Anybody else that that Israel are a bit obsessed with Ireland because of our success with US investment?

They seem to pick on any little thing they can find when it come to us?

I doubt it TBH. Much of our US investment is dependent on our being inside the EU tariff wall. By that token, Israel would not be a rival for most of the inward investment projects we get.

Intel for example, has a factory in Ireland because it needed one inside, anywhere inside, the European Union. So we would have been in competition with the likes of Britain, France and Germany for that. The same company also has a plant in Israel but for different reasons.

IrishTrajan

landofthetree wrote: »

Anybody else that that Israel are a bit obsessed with Ireland because of our success with US investment?

They seem to pick on any little thing they can find when it come to us?

Well, I think everyone has an obsession with us because of our investment successes. Look at the Isle of Mann, it's a bigger tax haven than we are. It has access to the European market (as a dependency upon the UK) but has fiscal/tax autonomy from the UK itself. Britain, Germany, France... They're all loud when it comes to other people's dealings and successes, and always quiet about their own, blaming any criticism on jealousy.


And, yes, Israel would pick up every little thing they could find. They're known for doing back-door deals with anyone and everyone, doing what is in their favour even if it hurts their allies... I would trust the American and British Governments more than I'd trust the Israeli Government.

Madd Finn

Madd Finn wrote: »

It's been a long time since I ......saw a Jaffa orange (small o).

OK Hands up. I saw a string bag of oranges carrying the Jaffa brand in Tesco over the weekend. On inspection, I saw that the label said "Produce of South Africa".

Seems like the ideal cue for this Spitting Image sketch from the 1980s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLmG9QSlxQQ