DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Change # 1 : Require everyone getting disability to be diagnosed with a specific condition in the medical books AND in active regular timetabled treatment.

what if you have something that cannot be treated. blindness, deafness. being 2 examples.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I'd even consider making a rule that they can't travel on public transport after certain hours at all

what difference would that make. if they are going to cause trouble they will do it whatever part of the day.

Carawaystick

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Change #2: No FT passes for addicts.

Harsh on all the grannies that would go mental without their cuppa, let alone those that smoke.

expectationlost

Eastern and Midland Regional Assembly agrees emergency motion on Dart Underground
http://davidhealy.dublin13.com/?p=413

The Regional Planning Guidelines (RPGs) for the Greater Dublin Area(GDA) are explicitly based on the implementation of Transport 21 including Dart Underground.
The Local Authorities in the GDA, in line with the RPGs, have included Dart Underground in their Development Plans and planned accordingly.
Dart Underground is the most important strategic transport investment needed to achieve the required increase in public transport network capacity and efficiency which in turn are needed to bring about the required modal shift and prevent over-reliance on private motor transport.
Failure to make the required investment in the Dart Underground will undermine and render impossible the policies in the RPG which seek to focus development on areas served by quality public transport.
If the Government refuses to go ahead with Dart Underground, it is depriving the GDA of the essential interconnecting piece of public transport infrastructure on which regional and local authority level spatial planning is based and ensuring that the public transport system in the GDA will be incapable of meeting the needs of the region as envisaged up to now.

who knows what he is going to do, but good timing that they happened to have a meeting

I was questioned by one other member as to whether I thought the Dart Underground was more important than the airport link; I replied that it was, and that I thought this was objectively recognised by most people, including, in 2010, the current Transport Minister, then an opposition spokesperson

I wonder who asked him that?

http://emra.ie/members/

cgcsb

I'm crossing my fingers for a u-turn on DARTu in the coming days. Even issuing CPOs and making no commitment to move it forward in 2016 would be acceptable.

Idbatterim

I'm crossing my fingers for a u-turn on DARTu in the coming days. Even issuing CPOs and making no commitment to move it forward in 2016 would be acceptable.

yeah totally agree! forget MN or whatever for now, getting the ball rolling on this would be fantastic...

newacc2015

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm crossing my fingers for a u-turn on DARTu in the coming days. Even issuing CPOs and making no commitment to move it forward in 2016 would be acceptable.

Like they have €1.5Billion to play with in the Budget. You think they would actually build an infrastructure project with it,rather than the start of the endless tax cuts and welfare increases like its 2004 all over again. But Irish people love a quick fix like more money in their pocket now, than commitment to much need infrastructure.

There has been no serious media coverage on the issue. Most people I have spoken to are completely unaware of the DU shelved and the new Luas line.

Wild Garlic

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I don't have the weird chip on my shoulder about the FT pass that most seem to.

There is one change I'd make however, and not to the FT pass directly but to the criteria for disability allowance. Currently you can get it for certain things without specifying what specific condition you have been diagnosed with, and you can get it for addiction, and you are not required to be in treatment for this condition.

Change # 1 : Require everyone getting disability to be diagnosed with a specific condition in the medical books AND in active regular timetabled treatment.

''malaise" is apparently one you can write on the form, that's absurd, ok so you have malaise, you're tired all the time, go get some blood tests is there a physical problem? Fine treat it and get it better that way they won't be on the thing forever. Is it depression? Fine then make the person be involved in regular, scheduled medical treatment with an approx timetable and review dates. This would cut out so many scammers. Make a rule that it has to be a specifically diagnosed medical condition you are IN TREATMENT for. Only allow FT passes for those in disability in those categories if their finances are below x amount and or they can't drive and have no other way of getting to treatment and getting around.

Change #2: No FT passes for addicts.
I'd create a separate payment and category for them , and to get that cash require them to also be in timetabled treatment, but I'd not let them, unlike the above, get a FT pass for it. I'm sorry the addicts have caused too much trouble on public transport I'd even consider making a rule that they can't travel on public transport after certain hours at all

Thanks for that, cheered me right up, absolutely hilarious

loyatemu

newacc2015 wrote: »

Like they have €1.5Billion to play with in the Budget. You think they would actually build an infrastructure project with it,rather than the start of the endless tax cuts and welfare increases like its 2004 all over again. But Irish people love a quick fix like more money in their pocket now, than commitment to much need infrastructure.

There has been no serious media coverage on the issue. Most people I have spoken to are completely unaware of the DU shelved and the new Luas line.

It hasn't been officially announced yet has it? All we've had is a couple of speculative/leaked newspaper articles.

markpb

loyatemu wrote: »

It hasn't been officially announced yet has it? All we've had is a couple of speculative/leaked newspaper articles.

And no-one in government coming out to refute it.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

And no-one in government coming out to refute it.

They are not going to say one way or the other until they make the official announcement.

Until that takes place, everything is pure speculation.

newacc2015

loyatemu wrote: »

It hasn't been officially announced yet has it? All we've had is a couple of speculative/leaked newspaper articles.

Often "leaks" are just the Government testing the public support for Budget ideas. If there is an uproar on some issues, they dont appear on Budget day. Where as favourable ideas end up in the Budget.

NuMarvel

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm crossing my fingers for a u-turn on DARTu in the coming days. Even issuing CPOs and making no commitment to move it forward in 2016 would be acceptable.

Are the CPOs the only things that need to be done at this stage to satisfy the obligations of the Railway Order? Does anything else need to be done to keep the RO in force?

cgcsb

As far as I know it just requires a commitment to build, which would no doubt include the CPOs. AFAIK that'd be the extent of the money required this year. With EU grants being offered though, there may be pressure to begin tendering.

expectationlost

is he still in the US?

don't worry our local media are on the case Farrell Wants Transport Option For Swords Delivered Now http://www.northcountyleader.ie/2015/09/15/farrell-wants-transport-option-for-swords-delivered-now/ stunning stuff, did this actually get in the paper http://www.northcountyleader.ie/digital-edition/ yep page 9 reprint of statement, with an added ...'Farrell told the County Leader'.

thomasj

Blanchardstown grew by 10% to 100,894 people. It's the biggest single suburb in the greater Dublin area and is larger than most other cities and towns in the State. -

[URL]
http://m.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/population-statistics-27811360.html[/URL]

Oh yeah now they've fixed blanchardstown issues alright so they can focus solely on north county dublin

The interconnector would have benefitted so many more people including blanchardstown, rather than going down the "selfish" route of just catering for swords etc.

Calina

So this is what they have been working on in Brussels for the last 7 years. http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-schuman-station-ready-in-december-gen-railway-airport-connection/

aliveandkicking

Looks like they maybe having a rethink on the proposed Luas.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/budget-2016-coalition-plans-targeted-childcare-funding-1.2359314

Some Government sources suggested last night a move away from the proposed Luas plan linking the city centre to the airport was being considered and that a Metro-style light rail link may be the preferred option

“Another look has been taken at various transport options to the airport. The Luas may not turn out to be the most effective and efficient option,” one senior source said.

cgcsb

Oh thank god. Still it's DART underground that I'm most concerned about at this stage.

pclive

It was also mentioned in the Sunday times yesterday where "Paschal Donohoe is said to have moved away from a "luas option" to the airport preferring a higher capacity Dart or Metro North"

cgcsb

a "higher capacity DART" cannot exist without DARTunderground.

Idbatterim

Only seeing this now! Thank God if this turns out to be the case!

crushproof

pclive wrote: »

It was also mentioned in the Sunday times yesterday where "Paschal Donohoe is said to have moved away from a "luas option" to the airport preferring a higher capacity Dart or Metro North"

Banging my head against a wall here.... not good on a Monday morning after a weekend of sports.

Christ, the LUAS option should have been shot down the instance it was recommended - any logical person knows that. Most likely more consultant money down the drain.
It's infuriating how slow things get done in Ireland. As someone who sees DU as an utterly necessary piece of infrastructure, at this rate I'm willing to accept Metro over DU, just do it FFS.

Van.Bosch

crushproof wrote: »

Banging my head against a wall here.... not good on a Monday morning after a weekend of sports.

Christ, the LUAS option should have been shot down the instance it was recommended - any logical person knows that. Most likely more consultant money down the drain.
It's infuriating how slow things get done in Ireland. As someone who sees DU as an utterly necessary piece of infrastructure, at this rate I'm willing to accept Metro over DU, just do it FFS.

While i welcome this news if its true it would make you wonder about what they have been up to for the last year. A last minute change of mind - surely these things are based on analysis and data not the minister changing his mind!

cgcsb

Van.Bosch wrote: »

While i welcome this news if its true it would make you wonder about what they have been up to for the last year. A last minute change of mind - surely these things are based on analysis and data not the minister changing his mind!

I'd say the minister got a sufficient number of emails, alluding to his unseating to change his mind. Nothing to do with expensive expert advice.

aliveandkicking

After the last couple of weeks of depressing news about this I'd now be f**king ecstatic if they just protected the DU railway order now and put the decision on the rest off until after the election.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

a "higher capacity DART" cannot exist without DARTunderground.

Ah It can. Just run 8 car darts all the time. Voila : Higher capacity.
Run Darts at the peak time frequency for longer during the day and weekends. Voila: Higher capacity

BoatMad

cgcsb wrote: »

a "higher capacity DART" cannot exist without DARTunderground.

Several papers recently have mentioned the favourite option is now a heavy rail link to the airport. They could implement that without DU, even if its an imperfect solution

BoatMad

aliveandkicking wrote: »

After the last couple of weeks of depressing news about this I'd now be f**king ecstatic if they just protected the DU railway order now and put the decision on the rest off until after the election.

The courts require a commitment to build and I cannot see the Gov agreeing to that , since the date has passed ( wasn't it the 18th ) , sorry , its the 24 th so with no announcement , thats that isn't it. ( since time is needed to issue CPO s)


Its looks to be a goner

thomasj

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ah It can. Just run 8 car darts all the time. Voila : Higher capacity.
Run Darts at the peak time frequency for longer during the day and weekends. Voila: Higher capacity

If only it was that simple.......

Lenton Lane

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ah It can. Just run 8 car darts all the time. Voila : Higher capacity.
Run Darts at the peak time frequency for longer during the day and weekends. Voila: Higher capacity

Well to the untutored eye, yes. And longer Darts or Commuter trains would help, but that is not the whole story.

In railway terms more capacity actually means the number of trains that can be physically run on a section of line.

Currently the lines into Connolly station are at at capacity as there is a mix of Darts, Maynooth, Dundalk and Arklow commuter trains, InterCity to Rosslare and Sligo and the Enterprise to Belfast.

The City Centre signalling project will alleviate some of the Connolly capacity issues but at least one extra line would be needed to increase capacity on the Great Northern line to allow more Darts and Intercity trains to run into Connolly, especially if the Dart spur were built from Clongriffin to the Airport and Swords.

Extra capacity at Connolly would also allow the possibility of a commuter service from Navan via Drogheda as per the Platform 11 proposals, but would the NTA and IÉ be shrewd enough to take that opportunity?

BoatMad

thomasj wrote: »

If only it was that simple.......

It is in reality , capacity can be added, even if its difficult, closer blocks, 4 aspect signalling , even moving block signalling would allow virtual head to toe trains.

BoatMad

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Well to the untutored eye, yes. And longer Darts or Commuter trains would help, but that is not the whole story.

In railway terms more capacity actually means the number of trains that can be physically run on a section of line.

Currently the lines into Connolly station are at at capacity as there is a mix of Darts, Maynooth, Dundalk and Arklow commuter trains, InterCity to Rosslare and Sligo and the Enterprise to Belfast.

The City Centre signalling project will alleviate some of the Connolly capacity issues but at least one extra line would be needed to increase capacity on the Great Northern line to allow more Darts and Intercity trains to run into Connolly, especially if the Dart spur were built from Clongriffin to the Airport and Swords.

Extra capacity at Connolly would also allow the possibility of a commuter service from Navan via Drogheda as per the Platform 11 proposals, but would the NTA and IÉ be shrewd enough to take that opportunity?

Ive seen this " at capacity " statement several times, over the years , but with no supporting technical analysis , nor have I seen technical analysis of the centre city signalling project to really see what it will achieve

Otherwise , the suspicious in me thinks " don't let a crisis go un-wasted " type of thinking


Temporary solutions such as interchanges rather then through trains could be used to facilitate introduction , driving 2 more tracks into connolly would be massively expensive

Captain Chaos

thomasj wrote: »

If only it was that simple.......

It is that simple, DARTs ran that way from 2006-2008. 8 car DARTs formations ran morning noon and night, even late night services for special events and Christmas shopping.

It's the massive cut back in capacity that started 2 years ago is crippling at peak times.

Lenton Lane

Boatmad there is a lot of material out there regarding capacity at Connolly and I'm sure the IÉ press office would help if you are serious about enquiring why the signalling works are needed.

BoatMad

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Boatmad there is a lot of material out there regarding capacity at Connolly and I'm sure the IÉ press office would help if you are serious about enquiring why the signalling works are needed.

I have such connections , better then most , I worked on CTC some time ago. I have my doubts as to whats achievable and whats not. The justification for capital spending is " a very complex thing ". whats ends up being delivered is often way way different from the original proposal.

Ive no desire to get into CIE bashing or public bodies in particular, but capital justification is often more political then monetary , i.e. money becomes available and a project is designed around to " extract it " etc. The railcars were a classic case

Sometimes the outcome is not what was intended however. Sometimes it is.

Just like the Phoenix Tunnel " suddenly " became suitable again for commuter traffic when for years it was deemed " unsuitable" is a case in point

I dont blame CIE, extracting public money for rail is a difficult process and all the guile in the world can be needed at times.

BoatMad

Captain Chaos wrote: »

It is that simple, DARTs ran that way from 2006-2008. 8 car DARTs formations ran morning noon and night, even late night services for special events and Christmas shopping.

It's the massive cut back in capacity that started 2 years ago is crippling at peak times.

which is down to both expanding services , while not adding rolling stock, obsolescence without replacing stock, and ill planned " cost saving" measures

pclive

The announcement of the infrastructure projects is taking place on Wednesday the 23 Sept. Is there enough time then to issue the CPOs to save DU before the deadline on the 24th?

aliveandkicking

pclive wrote: »

The announcement of the infrastructure projects is taking place on Wednesday the 23 Sept. Is there enough time then to issue the CPOs to save DU before the deadline on the 24th?

Would the announcement of intention to build be enough or do they actually have to issue the CPOs?

Despite the apparent backtrack on the Luas plan I still doubt they will go for DU anyway.

BoatMad

pclive wrote: »

The announcement of the infrastructure projects is taking place on Wednesday the 23 Sept. Is there enough time then to issue the CPOs to save DU before the deadline on the 24th?

I doubt it , unless they could convince the high court to give them an extension , but the court was very critical of the issue

Lenton Lane

BoatMad wrote: »

I have such connections , better then most , I worked on CTC some time ago. I have my doubts as to whats achievable and whats not. The justification for capital spending is " a very complex thing ". whats ends up being delivered is often way way different from the original proposal.

Ive no desire to get into CIE bashing or public bodies in particular, but capital justification is often more political then monetary , i.e. money becomes available and a project is designed around to " extract it " etc. The railcars were a classic case

Sometimes the outcome is not what was intended however. Sometimes it is.

Just like the Phoenix Tunnel " suddenly " became suitable again for commuter traffic when for years it was deemed " unsuitable" is a case in point

I dont blame CIE, extracting public money for rail is a difficult process and all the guile in the world can be needed at times.

Well then as some one who worked on CTC, you know why the Phoenix Park Tunnel became available for Kildare trains, the City Centre Signalling project allows it. It wasn't "suddenly suitable" as you assert.

BoatMad

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Well then as some one who worked on CTC, you know why the Phoenix Park Tunnel became available for Kildare trains, the City Centre Signalling project allows it. It wasn't "suddenly suitable" as you assert.

hmm, it could have been used well before that.

The main reason PPT is now on the cards is DU is gone and PPT was kept in the background least it been seen by the powers that be as " DU lite", which of course is exactly how its being seen

Lenton Lane

BoatMad wrote: »

hmm, it could have been used well before that.

The main reason PPT is now on the cards is DU is gone and PPT was kept in the background least it been seen by the powers that be as " DU lite", which of course is exactly how its being seen

I'm inclined to agree with you there. It will be interesting to see if the Heavy Rail option to the Airport and Swords emerges on Wednesday.

BoatMad

Lenton Lane wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with you there. It will be interesting to see if the Heavy Rail option to the Airport and Swords emerges on Wednesday.

My view and info is it a strong contender, even though DAA are concerned as to how to facilitate a station on the concourse . LUAS is seen as taking too long and might actually ultimately be justified in itself.

I wonder will the heavy rail link to swords remain in the plan or just the airport ?

Idbatterim

They should run dart to airport and swords, them luas eventually from town to airport to connect with dart. I really hope mn or metro north revised gets go ahead. But once it's anything other than luas, I'll be happy enough. An airport dart link even allows for mn in future...

Idbatterim

My view and info is it a strong contender, even though DAA are concerned as to how to facilitate a station on the concourse . LUAS is seen as taking too long and might actually ultimately be justified in itself.

I wonder will the heavy rail link to swords remain in the plan or just the airport ?

not linking swords would be madness, its has a booming population and is the 9th largest town by population, in the republic (according to 2011 cencus! it was only 1,500 away from 7th place and it wouldnt surprise me, if it now it the 7th largest...

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

It is that simple, DARTs ran that way from 2006-2008. 8 car DARTs formations ran morning noon and night, even late night services for special events and Christmas shopping.

It's the massive cut back in capacity that started 2 years ago is crippling at peak times.

and i'd bet driving people away

BoatMad

Idbatterim wrote: »

not linking swords would be madness, its has a booming population and is the 9th largest town by population, in the republic (according to 2011 cencus! it was only 1,500 away from 7th place and it wouldnt surprise me, if it now it the 7th largest...

The danger is the project becomes too big to fund etc

depends on political priorities Id say

Idbatterim

the proposal of Dart to airport and swords and luas to airport would do a few things. 1. probably half cost of metro north, far easier sell politically as its two seperate projects with fairly reasonable sums (probably 400-500 million each), Dart ads lots of capacity for swords and airport, so a luas from city centre to airport IN ADDITION to dart, could work for lots of people, take the DART if getting to airport is very time critical...

thomasj

Idbatterim wrote: »

not linking swords would be madness, its has a booming population and is the 9th largest town by population, in the republic (according to 2011 cencus! it was only 1,500 away from 7th place and it wouldnt surprise me, if it now it the 7th largest...

Blanchardstown (maynooth line) is still waiting on the DART line. It has a bigger population than swords.

BoatMad

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown (maynooth line) is still waiting on the DART line. It has a bigger population than swords.

not to mention Navan or upgrading the line to Arklow gorey so as it doesnt take 2 hours to travel 60 miles ?