DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

cgcsb

StonyIron wrote: »

We probably should have been phasing in standard gauge decades ago like Spain is using dual gauge stock in the interim. Long term it means off the shelf designs and cost savings. However as we can only think one election ahead, that's not likely here.

In Ireland's defence (not that we deserve it) Spain had a realistic prospect of international rail services we don't with present technology.

XPS_Zero

Is nobody else disturbed by these weird flip flops??

Major strategic infrastructure decisions are meant to be done thinking 20-30 years ahead. But in a matter of weeks our govt has gone from

1. Do nothing
2. Do a Luas to the airport
3. Were not doing DU
3 Er forget about airport luas were going to do a modified metro north instead but without the key element that will make it work - DART Undergroud

This is embarrasing, other EU leaders must be laughing their asses off at the gombeens running Ireland

Idbatterim

XPS_Zero I agree with the above, I am sure everyone else here does too, this is Ireland though! If we get metro north as opposed to what looked like the luas, I will be very happy, we will get DU that is a given, I'd day that will be given the go ahead in the next few years, when is the only question... If metro north revised is given the go ahead and we have to wait a few more years for DU, In my opinion, given what we are dealing with here, things could have been worse, a whole lot worse...

In some ways, it was MN I was most concerned about, DU has a lot less scope for change, we simply have to wait longer, on the airport / swords line, we could have and may yet still be, left with an absolute joke...

cgcsb

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Is nobody else disturbed by these weird flip flops??

Major strategic infrastructure decisions are meant to be done thinking 20-30 years ahead. But in a matter of weeks our govt has gone from

1. Do nothing
2. Do a Luas to the airport
3. Were not doing DU
3 Er forget about airport luas were going to do a modified metro north instead but without the key element that will make it work - DART Undergroud

This is embarrasing, other EU leaders must be laughing their asses off at the gombeens running Ireland

Alas it's a rural society with teachers in charge. Each one fancies themselves as bar stool transport planners so they frequently ignore consultant advice and go with what they think is best.

cgcsb

agreed we will have DART underground and there is close to 0% scope for cheaping out on it and 'build a luas instead'. I expect DART underground will be on the table for election 2020. It'll be EXACTLY the same as the current design but with another €40,000,000 blown on planning and consultancy.

Captain Chaos

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Is nobody else disturbed by these weird flip flops??

Major strategic infrastructure decisions are meant to be done thinking 20-30 years ahead. But in a matter of weeks our govt has gone from

1. Do nothing
2. Do a Luas to the airport
3. Were not doing DU
3 Er forget about airport luas were going to do a modified metro north instead but without the key element that will make it work - DART Undergroud

This is embarrasing, other EU leaders must be laughing their asses off at the gombeens running Ireland

Ah not really, did you see the UK MoD changing their minds back and forward about buying either the F-35B or C fighter variant and then having to change the spec of a half built aircraft carrier to suit the variant they would go for. Then not being able to afford to have their two future carrier in services at the same time and are looking to share duties with France and their only carrier.

It's cost them billions and billions and in the end they have made the wrong decision and everyone can see it. That's embarrassing as it's their Navy air arm for the next 40 years they just handicapped.

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

Alas it's a rural society with teachers in charge. Each one fancies themselves as bar stool transport planners so they frequently ignore consultant advice and go with what they think is best.

They honestly can't think what's been proposed is best unless by best they mean cheapest piece meal throw the long suffering commuters a bone option

cgcsb

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They honestly can't think what's been proposed is best unless by best they mean cheapest piece meal throw the long suffering commuters a bone option

I don't think any serious alternatives have been proposed, there aren't any. From an engineering point of view this situation is unique in the world, you have a problem and literally only the one way of solving it that doesn't happen often. Still you'll see the crayons comming out at FG HQ.

XPS_Zero

The f-35 was and is a pilots death trap (at least according to a friend of mine who's flown them), apparently the US Air Force all but screamed at Congress "we don't want this!! don't build this!!" but the manufacturer had of course purchased---er----donated to---the right politicos and split the manufacturing process between states (which means ''jobs'') so it came through anyway.

We don't have a version of Lockheed or GE opposed to this flooding our political system with money, since corporate donations are illegal in Ireland (thankfully). So the excuse of our government is just incompetence.

I was just looking at the diagrams of MN, it's integrally dependent on DU they even meet together in Stephens Green so what does this mean? You get off the metro in stephens green and have to jump on a luas, then change lines in mid town and jump on the red to go to Connoly? Won't that add major congestion to the Luas?

MrMorooka

thomasj wrote: »

Going off topic I see web summit is to move to Portugal next year for 3 years.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0923/729704-web-summit

From that passage



Maybe sending out a message about our transport infrastructure?

Look at http://metro.transporteslisboa.pt/eng/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/CityMap.pdf

The convention centre they are using in Lisbon is a 3 minute walk from a station that is both on a national railway, and on a metro line a couple of stops from the airport(Oriente). Look at how many metro lines there are in general in the city.

dublinman1990

The overwhelming consensus here is that this FG/Lab government don't do transport, don't do proper planning and more importantly don't do investment.

When FF had these plans in Transport 21; they amassed a huge amount of great publicity in eventually allowing a lot of time to get these projects completed quickly. And what FG/Lab do; they have the audacity to dickie up some of the most important integral projects in that plan and say their way is the better way. Even though that will more than likely do more harm than good and will eventually creak under current capacity constraints and we will have to do another major rethink 100 times over until we are morally bankrupt.

Even the likes of Eamon Gilmore was against MN when this project was out in the public domain. It was plainly embarrassing to see that nonsense being spouted from him as I read that about that story myself from the national papers.

What is more embarrassing is that I also live in the Dun Laoghaire constituency myself as Gilmore.

It was good to see likes of Eamon Ryan from the Green Party going on use the New York Subway while he was a minister on a working trip to the states a good few years ago. If we had politicians with a right minded view on transport like him; these projects could have been a very safe bet to go for despite our very bad economic circumstances.

LeinsterDub

dublinman1990 wrote: »

When FF had these plans in Transport 21; they amassed a huge amount of great publicity in eventually allowing a lot of time to get these projects completed quickly.

They are all the same. FF have been in power for most of the last 40/50 years and have delivered 2 disconnected Luas lines.

ClovenHoof

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They are all the same. FF have been in power for most of the last 40/50 years and have delivered 2 disconnected Luas lines.

We have only one political party on Ireland. The Anti-Dublin party.

That's it.


END OF.

Wanderer78

the worrying thing folks is, our politicians actually have very little power and control. the banks call the shots all the time. i have come to the conclusion that all our politicians are terrified of these private financial institutions. it just happened that ff were in power when a boom was orchestrated, mainly by the banks. id say it suited both parties that ff were in power at that time. i wont be surprised if they get back into power soon and another boom will be orchestrated again, as the banks require debtors all the time in order to create our money. so i wouldnt be blaming our politicians for our wooes, the banks are the ones to be shouting at.

LeinsterDub

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the worrying thing folks is, our politicians actually have very little power and control. the banks call the shots all the time. i have come to the conclusion that all our politicians are terrified of these private financial institutions. it just happened that ff were in power when a boom was orchestrated, mainly by the banks. id say it suited both parties that ff were in power at that time. i wont be surprised if they get back into power soon and another boom will be orchestrated again, as the banks require debtors all the time in order to create our money. so i wouldnt be blaming our politicians for our wooes, the banks are the ones to be shouting at.

Conspiracy theories forum is over there =>

Wanderer78

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Conspiracy theories forum is over there =>

nothing conspiracy about it im afraid. id highly recommend checking out the work of american economist ellen brown(signature). some of the best research ive come across on this matter and the best ive found of explaining it to. very worrying stuff but thankfully she also gives some possible great solutions to these problems

Banjoxed

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They are all the same. FF have been in power for most of the last 40/50 years and have delivered 2 disconnected Luas lines.

And made a gleeful point of scrapping Harcourt Street to Bray in the first place, ultimately escalating the cost of its partial restoration.

ClovenHoof

Check out the FGers on here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057498421

expectationlost

think this is sad

StonyIron

end of the road wrote: »

will the people be able to elect the members of these authorities you propose? if not, i'm not interested. i don't even trust my local council so frankly i'm not sure giving them more powers would be a good idea

You can't trust local councils because they're not run by elected members in reality. It's like the European Commission vs the Parliament. You've an appointed executive and a council that can only really advice / gently push and rubber stamp.

There's no direct responsibility for anything.

You need either an executive mayor model with a directly elected mayor to replace the concept of city managers and a council to advice / act as a check and balance / legislature.

Or, you need a small parliamentary model with a mayor elected from within the council chamber, but with a serious mandate like the Taoiseach on a local level.

Devolving transport and policing to local councils now with the current model would be providing no more accountability and wouldn't really be very democratic either because of the council structures.

This is *all* the fault of central government and stripping away of local authority powers and accountability.

The entire thing needs reform from the ground up. Dublin, Cork and possibly a few others need serious metropolitan authorities with exec mayors.
Less dense areas need regional councils with a similar set of powers and real accountability and towns need councils and town halls. It's ridiculous expecting towns to function without any structure. I don't know how they expect that one to work!

The current system is basically a total joke.

We need to be looking at best practice elsewhere in Europe, not plucking daft models out of the sky and making it up as we go along.

Also, if you look at Ireland almost all of the major corruption happened in local government precisely because the system is so badly organised and dysfunctional. IF people were paying attention to it and it was relevant to them, crooked councillors would have been noticed much sooner.

The structure absolutely need to be changed and the whole planning process needs to be opened up and made a hell of a lot more accountable and transparent.

Also, we had insane things like basically no local government elections at all all through the 1990s!

If we don't start taking local government seriously and actually realising what a huge impact it can have on people's day-to-day lives, we will absolutely never get these things right. European countries and cities aren't all super organised because of some kind of organisational gene difference, it's because they have the structures, the accountability and the systems in place to allow that to happen.

Ireland has systematically removed all of those things and then we sit scratching our rear end contemplating why we've sprawling messes, lousy public transport and rotten planning.

end of the road

StonyIron wrote: »

You can't trust local councils because they're not run by elected members in reality. It's like the European Commission vs the Parliament. You've an appointed executive and a council that can only really advice / gently push and rubber stamp.

There's no direct responsibility for anything.

You need either an executive mayor model with a directly elected mayor to replace the concept of city managers and a council to advice / act as a check and balance / legislature.

Or, you need a small parliamentary model with a mayor elected from within the council chamber, but with a serious mandate like the Taoiseach on a local level.

Devolving transport and policing to local councils now with the current model would be providing no more accountability and wouldn't really be very democratic either because of the council structures.

This is *all* the fault of central government and stripping away of local authority powers and accountability.

The entire thing needs reform from the ground up. Dublin, Cork and possibly a few others need serious metropolitan authorities with exec mayors.
Less dense areas need regional councils with a similar set of powers and real accountability and towns need councils and town halls. It's ridiculous expecting towns to function without any structure. I don't know how they expect that one to work!

The current system is basically a total joke.

We need to be looking at best practice elsewhere in Europe, not plucking daft models out of the sky and making it up as we go along.

Also, if you look at Ireland almost all of the major corruption happened in local government precisely because the system is so badly organised and dysfunctional. IF people were paying attention to it and it was relevant to them, crooked councillors would have been noticed much sooner.

The structure absolutely need to be changed and the whole planning process needs to be opened up and made a hell of a lot more accountable and transparent.

Also, we had insane things like basically no local government elections at all all through the 1990s!

If we don't start taking local government seriously and actually realising what a huge impact it can have on people's day-to-day lives, we will absolutely never get these things right. European countries and cities aren't all super organised because of some kind of organisational gene difference, it's because they have the structures, the accountability and the systems in place to allow that to happen.

Ireland has systematically removed all of those things and then we sit scratching our rear end contemplating why we've sprawling messes, lousy public transport and rotten planning.

thats all well and good but which ever way you have it, all need to be elected by the people. if someone makes a decisian i don't agree with, i want to be able to vote them out at election time. thats of course if i want to pay for another level of government, which i'm not sure i do. knowing ourselves if there are any changes, it will end up the same as britain and its local government. not a fan all though there are the odd good aspects.

expectationlost

bk wrote: »

No that isn't correct at all!

Metro North was and is very much light rail based like Luas.

It was to use the same 1,435 mm track gauge as Luas, with the same trams, with the same width, just 90 meters long rather then max 52 meters of Luas.

Also it was designed by the RPA, just like the Luas.

The only differences between MN and Luas are:

- 90 meters long versus 52 meters
- Lots of underground running
- Fully segregated running.

Metro North really is just Luas underground, a higher spec and capacity version of Luas.

Definitely not heavy rail.

wish are opposition transport spokepeople could get that right

Minister denies ‘softening up’ public opinion against heavy rail


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/minister-denies-softening-up-public-opinion-against-heavy-rail-1.2363006

In recent weeks, he also indicated he favoured the Luas connection to Dublin Airport over the alternative heavy rail project, better known as metro north.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-09-23a.7&s=heavy#g9.r

Idbatterim

If after all this, we get stiffed with Luas to the airport, I will lose my mind!

Captain Chaos

Idbatterim wrote: »

If after all this, we get stiffed with Luas to the airport, I will lose my mind!

That's what is going to happen unfortunately and we're all going to have to pick up the tab on the billions wasted on it.

Idbatterim

isnt is speculated now, that it will be metro north revised?

loyatemu

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They are all the same. FF have been in power for most of the last 40/50 years and have delivered 2 disconnected Luas lines.

IIRC it was the FG rainbow govt that approved the original Luas plans, and FF who decided to scrap the underground section in the middle.

McAlban

cgcsb wrote: »

agreed we will have DART underground and there is close to 0% scope for cheaping out on it and 'build a luas instead'. I expect DART underground will be on the table for election 2020. It'll be EXACTLY the same as the current design but with another €40,000,000 blown on planning and consultancy.

I suggest we make it an election issue for 2015/6.

Unfortunately who ever gets in to the DTTAS may be worse than Donohue.

devnull

FF promised a lot of transport developments, but delivered very little.

Lots of stuff was 'coming soon' for their whole three terms in office, but soon never came.

LeinsterDub

Idbatterim wrote: »

isnt is speculated now, that it will be metro north revised?

A form of MN , Metro North lite is being talking about

Idbatterim

anything that isnt the joke luas extension and has decent segregation, capacity and involves actually going to the airport and not some BS travelator and I will be happy enough...

A heavy rail connection will be put out there at some stage and the cost of doing it, is a pittance in the scheme of things...

expectationlost

DART Underground decision equivalent of Mary O'Rourke not connecting two Luas lines
23 September 2015 Quote from Dail speech by Sean Kenny TD http://www.labour.ie/press/2015/09/23/dart-underground-decision-equivalent-of-mary-orour/ he's retiring ...

dublinman1990

Dan White has written in the Herald said that DU at a cost of €4 billion was 'completely insane' and in his words that ''it was effectively and thankfully scrapped by the government earlier this week''.

He also said in his article that ''running a commuter railway (e.g. MN) from St Stephen's Green to Swords via Dublin Airport would be an complete waste of time and taxpayers money''.

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-time-to-scrap-metro-north-and-take-the-spur-to-the-airport-31553259.html

Dan White is a gullible fool to think these projects are ''grandiose vanity projects''. I have to admit what an utter moron.

Lenton Lane

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Dan White has written in the Herald said that DU at a cost of €4 billion was 'completely insane' and in his words that ''it was effectively and thankfully scrapped by the government earlier this week''.

He also said in his article that ''running a commuter railway (e.g. MN) from St Stephen's Green to Swords via Dublin Airport would be an complete waste of time and taxpayers money''.

http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-time-to-scrap-metro-north-and-take-the-spur-to-the-airport-31553259.html

Dan White is a gullible fool to think these projects are ''grandiose vanity projects''. I have to admit what an utter moron.

Another Indo group journalist clueless about transport. These guys just regurgitate whatever their source in the Department tells them to say.

Grandeeod

Without getting too personal, Dan White simply has absolutely no clue whatsoever about what Dublin even begins to need. He hasn't got the capability to see that short term projects are needed to compliment the longer term solutions that we need to build.

He is like a politician....give me the cheap and quick fixes, but feck the ultimate fixes. Populace BS that feeds into the electorate.

Conclusion? Knows nothing.

Muahahaha

Idbatterim wrote: »

If after all this, we get stiffed with Luas to the airport, I will lose my mind!

This now looks like the most likely thing they are going to do.

On one hand I am wondering that when it is built will the very first trams to run from the airport be jam packed before they even get out of the airport complex and then cant pick up additional passengers on the way to the city. But on the other hand given that the Luas at the airport will be a 500m walk down a windy tunnel from the airport building will passengers instead just opt for the Aircoach, given its going to be quicker to the city and is also stationed right outside the terminal doors?

If the Luas is €5 and the Aircoach is €7 I'd still be taking the Aircoach. The extra €2 is worth the faster journey with much fewer stops plus avoiding the hassle of dragging your bags 500m down a wind tunnel.

Idbatterim

Dan White has written in the Herald said that DU at a cost of €4 billion was 'completely insane' and in his words that ''it was effectively and thankfully scrapped by the government earlier this week''.

telling ignorant idiots what they want to hear, surprise surprise! Lads I have my fears, but even in this banana republic, will they actually be capable of putting the luas joke out to the airport, I mean its such a joke, that as pathetic as things are here, surely that going too far, even for them.

The transport minister replied to an email I sent him a few weeks back, he said"As you may be aware, the National Transport Authority (NTA) has statutory responsibility for developing public transport infrastructure in the Greater Dublin Area (GDA) including heavy and light rail projects." surely then the NTA have some say and know its not worthwhile building luas out to the airport...

The Fingal/North Dublin Transport Study examined all existing proposals (heavy rail, metro, Luas extensions) as well as other options for a rail-based transport solution to meet the area's needs in the long term.

The long term, the long term! oh man, this bull**** infuriates me, does he think a luas to dublin airport is a long term solution, I nearly cant stand the deceit, taking us for fools, the lies OR he is totally delusional. I am sure its the former though...

Idbatterim

But on the other hand given that the Luas at the airport will be a 500m walk down a windy tunnel from the airport building will passengers instead just opt for the Aircoach, given its going to be quicker to the city and is also stationed right outside the terminal doors?

i live a 10 minute walk from luas green line at dundrum - windyarbour, both equidistant. I use the airport frequently. No way would I use luas to get to the airport. How long would it take from here, an hour, to then bloody walk half a kilometre at the end. To deal with all the scumbags etc for lots of the route? LOL Ill stick to the car thanks!

Banjoxed

Idbatterim wrote: »

telling ignorant idiots what they want to hear, surprise surprise! Lads I have my fears, but even in this banana republic, will they actually be capable of putting the luas joke out to the airport, I mean its such a joke, that as pathetic as things are here, surely that going too far, even for them.

The transport minister replied to an email I sent him a few weeks back, he said"As you may be aware, the National Transport Authority (NTA) has statutory responsibility for developing public transport infrastructure in the Greater Dublin Area (GDA) including heavy and light rail projects." surely then the NTA have some say and know its not worthwhile building luas out to the airport...

The long term, the long term! oh man, this bull**** infuriates me, does he think a luas to dublin airport is a long term solution, I nearly cant stand the deceit, taking us for fools, the lies OR he is totally delusional. I am sure its the former though...

Sure the beauty of Luas to the Airport is that there's an election due in less than six months, and five years after that, and five years after that again. Even if there is only incremental change in government, a new administration can make the excuse that they need to review the project, and again for the election after that. Repeat and rinse.

Result: Masterly Inactivity! Little public money has been spent but the lads in Nesbitts can slap each other on the back for a non job well done!

jimmycrackcorm

Idbatterim wrote:

i live a 10 minute walk from luas green line at dundrum - windyarbour, both equidistant. I use the airport frequently. No way would I use luas to get to the airport. How long would it take from here, an hour, to then bloody walk half a kilometre at the end. To deal with all the scumbags etc for lots of the route? LOL Ill stick to the car thanks!

I'd happily use it rather than spend the almost €50 for airport parking. The annoying aspect is that both the DART and LUAS only serve a fraction of areas.

schemingbohemia

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'd happily use it rather than spend the almost €50 for airport parking. The annoying aspect is that both the DART and LUAS only serve a fraction of areas.

And that's why DART Underground is a game changer, it brings 10 minute frequency (which is close enough to turn up and go) to a huge section of the capital and links in with all the Luas lines.

Idbatterim

I'd happily use it rather than spend the almost €50 for airport parking. The annoying aspect is that both the DART and LUAS only serve a fraction of areas.

parking obviously varies in cost, depending on a number of factors, but I frequently park in quickpark for €23 a week! i am sick of this FG / Labour government, initially anger at this government and even currently was mostly from the welfare / low income classes, I am growing more dissolusioned with them by the day! Taking more people out of our already small tax net, there is talk of FG wanting to have USC totally abolished before next election!

MJohnston

Muahahaha wrote: »

But on the other hand given that the Luas at the airport will be a 500m walk down a windy tunnel from the airport building

Ah look, I'd be as disappointed with an airport Luas option as anyone, but I think this is nonsense - Heathrow Central to Terminal 1, 2, or 3 is generally about a 10 minute walk WITH travelators, and I recall the T5 station being just as far to walk. People might be annoyed with that, but the fact is that it doesn't impact the amount of people using Heathrow Central, and any of the transport options that connect through it.

Calina

MJohnston wrote: »

Ah look, I'd be as disappointed with an airport Luas option as anyone, but I think this is nonsense - Heathrow Central to Terminal 1, 2, or 3 is generally about a 10 minute walk WITH travelators, and I recall the T5 station being just as far to walk. People might be annoyed with that, but the fact is that it doesn't impact the amount of people using Heathrow Central, and any of the transport options that connect through it.

This is the thing I don't understand about Ireland sometimes: we choose a less than best solution and then, when people point out we could choose a better solution, the response is to give an example of other people who've done things less than optimally.

Why not aim to do things the best way possible here? Why do we always go for "yerrah it'll do"?

Brussels is opening a brand new 15 minute rail connection from the airport to the European quarter. It's been in planning/development for the last 7 years and it is part of a major project to vastly improve local heavy rail services in the area. The existing rail to the city centre is 20 minutes and serves all three of the major rail stations in the city.

What have we in that time? A lot of infighting about how little we can get away with doing.

I'd like to see people step up and say "these things can be better" rather than "yerrah, it's not perfect in other places either". Why emulate Heathrow's horrific connection set up where you've miles to walk rather than Brussels where the rail station is down a couple of escalators?

MJohnston

I was responding directly to the assertion that a 500m tunnel would mean nobody would use the service, which I think is false. I don't think it's a very good idea, and you're putting words in my mouth to suggest I did.

tobsey

Idbatterim wrote: »

parking obviously varies in cost, depending on a number of factors, but I frequently park in quickpark for €23 a week! i am sick of this FG / Labour government, initially anger at this government and even currently was mostly from the welfare / low income classes, I am growing more dissolusioned with them by the day! Taking more people out of our already small tax net, there is talk of FG wanting to have USC totally abolished before next election!

I work on the Dundrum road, I'm guessing very near to your house as I'm between those two stops. I commute from Swords every day and I've abandoned the car. Bus through port tunnel, Dublin Bike, Luas from Charlemont. It takes 50-70 minutes depending on how lucky you get with waiting on bus and Luas. That costs €75 a month with tax saver ticket. You'd spend that in a week on fuel and tolls easily in a car, and it wouldn't be any quicker. It would be slower more often due to the regular crashes on the M50.

Luas all the way may not be faster than my current route but it would be easier, and a lot cheaper. I'm not sure what more you would want?

ClovenHoof

Why are we still talking about this?

It's Dead Jim.

McAlban

DU might be dead for the moment, but we're still waiting to see if Donohue's 2/2.

ClovenHoof

McAlban wrote: »

DU might be dead for the moment, but we're still waiting to see if Donohue's 2/2.

That is Magical Fairyland stuff. It's not real on any level except FG spin doctors consultancy fee.

Muahahaha

MJohnston wrote: »

I was responding directly to the assertion that a 500m tunnel would mean nobody would use the service, which I think is false. I don't think it's a very good idea, and you're putting words in my mouth to suggest I did.

Yeah but my point was which mode of transport would people choose? A tram that will take approx 40-45mins to get to SSG and is 500m from the airport tunnel or a luxury bus like Aircoach that is right outside the terminal door and will get you to SSG in approx 30-35 minutes.

I've no doubt some people will still use the Luas because they might want to go further south on the Luas to Dundrum, Sandyford or even connect to the red line to go south west. But if you're just going to the city centre to connect with DART, Irish Rail or Dublin Bus then the best way to do it will still be by bus. Why not just build the thing with a station underneath the terminal, like they do in many major airports on the continent. We should just get it right first time but this daft Luas to airport extension doesn't even achieve that.

Grandeeod

Calina wrote: »

This is the thing I don't understand about Ireland sometimes: we choose a less than best solution and then, when people point out we could choose a better solution, the response is to give an example of other people who've done things less than optimally.

Why not aim to do things the best way possible here? Why do we always go for "yerrah it'll do"?

Brussels is opening a brand new 15 minute rail connection from the airport to the European quarter. It's been in planning/development for the last 7 years and it is part of a major project to vastly improve local heavy rail services in the area. The existing rail to the city centre is 20 minutes and serves all three of the major rail stations in the city.

What have we in that time? A lot of infighting about how little we can get away with doing.

I'd like to see people step up and say "these things can be better" rather than "yerrah, it's not perfect in other places either". Why emulate Heathrow's horrific connection set up where you've miles to walk rather than Brussels where the rail station is down a couple of escalators?

Agree completely.

If I'm not mistaken, you were once a mod of a transport related forum here on boards. Could of been this one. You moderated a lot of angry and nasty stuff and probably upset a lot of genuine posters. (You were doing a hard job in fairness) But your recent contributions have been very honest and I can appreciate that you are seeing things for how they actually are. I hope you can equally appreciate how angry some of us were as the usual political BS unfolded and it wasn't surprising.