DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

monument

expectationlost wrote: »

what the difference between Metro North's em rolling stock/track and Luas's rolling stock/track again?

The main planned difference would have been the length of the trams. The metro trams would have been over twice the length of Luas trams.

There could have also be aesthetic differences. Track and loading gauge etc would be the same -- Luas would have been able to run on metro tracks. Metro trams also could have fit on Luas tracks but metro trams would be too long for Luas platforms and would cause extra disruption at crossings.

Grandeeod

monument wrote: »

The main planned difference would have been the length of the trams. The metro trams would have been over twice the length of Luas trams.

There could have also be aesthetic differences. Track and loading gauge etc would be the same -- Luas would have been able to run on metro tracks. Metro trams also could have fit on Luas tracks but metro trams would be too long for Luas platforms and would cause extra disruption at crossings.

And in the olden days the width of the "Metro Trams" would have been more than the "Luas Trams".

monument

Grandeeod wrote: »

And in the olden days the width of the "Metro Trams" would have been more than the "Luas Trams".

But the idea of having wider metro "vehicles" was done away with before detailed designs were released.

Likely because they wanted interoperability and when they found that the proven way of technically doing it (ie two platforms along the same tracks) would be impractical due to costs for any underground sections.

Plus there's good reason to want to keep all the rolling stock as close as possable the same.

Grandeeod

monument wrote: »

But the idea of having wider metro "vehicles" was done away with before detailed designs were released.

Likely because they wanted interoperability and when they found that the proven way of technically doing it (ie two platforms along the same tracks) would be impractical due to costs for any underground sections.

Plus there's good reason to want to keep all the rolling stock as close as possable the same.

IRELAND

Making it up as it goes along and achieving little.

expectationlost

monument wrote: »

The main planned difference would have been the length of the trams. The metro trams would have been over twice the length of Luas trams.

There could have also be aesthetic differences. Track and loading gauge etc would be the same -- Luas would have been able to run on metro tracks. Metro trams also could have fit on Luas tracks but metro trams would be too long for Luas platforms and would cause extra disruption at crossings.

theres all this we have Metro North! not Luas! but they are both light rail so??? has anyone done a mock up of the difference between the two?

cgcsb

expectationlost wrote: »

theres all this we have Metro North! not Luas! but they are both light rail so??? has anyone done a mock up of the difference between the two?

There are 2 differences:

1)Metro is completely segregated from other modes, no waiting at traffic lights, this means higher speed is achieved without any safety concerns and journey times are dramatically faster than with luas

2)The Metro would have double the tram length which = more capacity on each tram.

we could just call the metro luas if we wanted and from public's perception it'd just be the luas line that's quite fast like the current green vs. red comparison.

Idbatterim

There are 2 differences

There is one other huge one, the severe disruption it creates during construction, but even worse than is possibly, is the road space it takes away from other forms of transport!

look at the disruption luas cross city is causing, I had to take a bus into town to collect my car the other day, the delays caused by this work were insane, I hindsight, I should have gotten out and walked!

monument

expectationlost wrote: »

theres all this we have Metro North! not Luas! but they are both light rail so??? has anyone done a mock up of the difference between the two?

Yes, they are both light rail, low-floor trams.

Mock ups varied but here's one where it's just a long Luas tram: http://dublinobserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/metronorth.jpg

The body could have been changed too -- but that's no different to the many modern low-floor trams in cities across Europe which are the same make and model or close to the same model but made to look a lot different, mainly from the front.

Grandeeod

monument wrote: »

If you have the time or a budget and resources please fire ahead with anything else...

Leave it with me. You never know.:D

expectationlost

Swords Luas favoured http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/swords-luas-favoured-31390248.html

coolperson05

expectationlost wrote: »

Swords Luas favoured http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/swords-luas-favoured-31390248.html

Well at least they've admitted that the BRT option is ridiculous - just look at Drumcondra road at the moment! Wonder when building would start?

Van.Bosch

coolperson05 wrote: »

Well at least they've admitted that the BRT option is ridiculous - just look at Drumcondra road at the moment! Wonder when building would start?

2019/20 I would say, best case (or worst depending on your view of the project).

LeinsterDub

Luas in pole position despite having capacity issues. Odd.

Banjoxed

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Luas in pole position despite having capacity issues. Odd.

Double the length of the trams and platforms, reduce number of stops, have as much reserved alignment as possible. Problem solved.

LeinsterDub

Banjoxed wrote: »

Double the length of the trams and platforms, reduce number of stops, have as much reserved alignment as possible. Problem solved.

Aka metro north?

Banjoxed

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Aka metro north?

Well if it makes it a few million cheaper than Metro North we could call it Albert instead..

Jamie2k9

Have not followed this but were we not due to find out in June?

Grandeeod

Banjoxed wrote: »

Double the length of the trams and platforms, reduce number of stops, have as much reserved alignment as possible. Problem solved.

That's not what's planned.

Grandeeod

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have not followed this but were we not due to find out in June?

Looking like September now.

Fudge, fudge and fudge some more.

Banjoxed

Grandeeod wrote: »

That's not what's planned.

Well as long as something is planned and not a big load of nothing.

end of the road

Banjoxed wrote: »

Well as long as something is planned and not a big load of nothing.

planning and building something just for the sake of planning and building something is a non runner. i hope they re-consider luas and build metro or heavier instead. for the capacity requirements luas doesn't cut it

LeinsterDub

Banjoxed wrote: »

Well as long as something is planned and not a big load of nothing.

It will follow the same cycle as before. Planning for 5 years, change of government/economic conditions. Throw it out at start again. Eircode had 3 abortive attempts and that only cost 27m. At this stage unless we are saving billions and with a much better system just poxy build MN

Idbatterim

Best case scenario is more fudge, if Luas is currently front runner. If they review it again in year or two, it will be MN surely, based on figures! That's Irish planning, knowing that in a year or two, it would never be approved, despite the fact it won't be open for half a decade minimum ...

cgcsb

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0805/719405-dart-underground/

Looks like it's a no for Dart Underground from the gov't.

"He says that Irish Rail needs to begin the legal process by 11 August next to activate the CPO in time for the 24 September deadline.

But both Irish Rail and the Department of Transport deny this saying the deadline is next month."

Very disappointing.

xper

cgcsb wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0805/719405-dart-underground/

Looks like it's a no for Dart Underground from the gov't.

"He says that Irish Rail needs to begin the legal process by 11 August next to activate the CPO in time for the 24 September deadline.

But both Irish Rail and the Department of Transport deny this saying the deadline is next month."

Very disappointing.

Where are you getting a definitive "no"? The deadline in the quote attributed to the developer is not backed up in any way. There is nothing new of substance in that article.

cgcsb

I said 'looks like'. The deadline is looming and the capital investment plan in dues 'sometime in September' the temporary opt measure is also dropped in there as a softener.

IE 222

I really think DART is the best option for airport/swords.

Luas wouldn't be able to provide the capacity. Airport needs trains that offer comfort and seats not a cramped frequent stopping sight seeing trip threw Dublin's northern suburbs. Morning rush hour trams will be full before santry.

I fail to see the great benefits of a single metro line not been linked to any real transport hubs and no real proposals to extend city wide. Is Stephens green really going to be this mega hub they say it will. Seems to be a bit off center in my opinion.

If the interconnecter tunnel is to be built are we really getting the maximum from it if trains are still serving the same places. Tunneling is badly needed in Dublin and really the only thing possible. Is the tunnel taking the correct route pearse and st. Stephens green don't think these are the missing links.

Dart could go underground at Malahide from bray serving 2 or 3 stops in swords before airport and then continue threw santry, ballymum, finglas and onto navan rd parkway. With dart from clonsilla then travelling along current docklands route could enter the interconnecter tunnel at croke park area and serve connolly O'connell street temple bar Christchurch Guinness heuston emmet rd come up in inchicore with a new station on klymore rd and onto hazlehatch.

Idbatterim

in relation to the above post. Eventually I am assuming the intercity trains will also go electric. For the time being we can have Dart only use the Dublin airport - swords line, but in time, couldnt we have electric trains running direct to the airport from say Cork, belfast etc?

The fact that MN would simply terminate in SSG, you have to get off the green line to connect for example to get to airport. Would luas work as a MN revised, and connect with green line, if the existing platforms and trams were lengthened?

I believe that eventually the RPA planned it that the green luas line, could be turned into a metro one. There are so many options. My opinion is, if in doubt, do nowt!

Luas wouldn't be able to provide the capacity.

would it provide the capacity if it was underground for the most part, with longer platforms and trams than are currently in operation? I believe the new platforms for BXD are 53m in length...

Captain Chaos

Trams would not have the capacity. As it is 8 car DARTs are transporting 800+ people at a time during rush hour at 15 min intervals and even now that just about enough, frequency demands are going up with the new time table to meet current demands. Even 80 metre Luas trams if they existed would not be able to cope.

DART underground is the only sensible solution with future capacity growth built in, we need a heavy rail option not light rail.

Captain Chaos

Idbatterim wrote: »

, with longer platforms and trams than are currently in operation? I believe the new platforms for BXD are 53m in length...

That's because the green line already has 50m trams and they are bursting as it is at the best of times.

It's a pity the red line platforms can't be extended due to where a lot a re located on junctions leaving no room for expansion for 50m trams too.

Sierra Oscar

Decision on new DART line due by next month

Iarnród Éireann has only four weeks to acquire land for the €4bn Dart Underground project or risk being forced to reapply for planning permission.

At least its getting a bit of coverage now though. Decision time pushed back to the "Autumn".

IE 222

Idbatterim wrote: »

in relation to the above post. Eventually I am assuming the intercity trains will also go electric. For the time being we can have Dart only use the Dublin airport - swords line, but in time, couldnt we have electric trains running direct to the airport from say Cork, belfast etc?

The fact that MN would simply terminate in SSG, you have to get off the green line to connect for example to get to airport. Would luas work as a MN revised, and connect with green line, if the existing platforms and trams were lengthened?

I believe that eventually the RPA planned it that the green luas line, could be turned into a metro one. There are so many options. My opinion is, if in doubt, do nowt!

would it provide the capacity if it was underground for the most part, with longer platforms and trams than are currently in operation? I believe the new platforms for BXD are 53m in length...

Yes if future intercity train chance to electric they could be catered for easily. But not all line will be electric power. Belfast could change at malahide if needed as routing to the airport would increase journey times Sligo could connect at navan parkway. They could build malahide - airport to cater for both electric and diesel in the mean time and run diesel threw phoenix park tunnel and change direction at connolly. I'm no expert in tunneling but a lot of the that section could be cut and cover as well rather than tunneled.

Luas underground as MN is still cut off from the rest of the network. The extra 10 meters or so wont have any great benefit by the time air passengers bring luggage and the likes on. Also with early morning departures and arrival maybe a night dart could be more feasible where with metro north people would have to find away into city center or be left stranded there at 4am.

Also if malahide could be 4 tracked it could allow for darts every 5 mins. One full route to bray and 5 mins later a air dart could run to connolly. Future routes and lines could easily be developed to places like blanc, lucan, knocklyon/ firhouse, Ashbourne

robert muldoon

I am curious with the new extension cross city that is being built.Will they be able to move trams from one line to another ,ie green to red and vice versa , if they just cross each other I can't see how they do this ???

Pete_Cavan

The government need to approve DU, progress with CPOs and commission KPRII. Even if they have no intention of building the tunnel, that at least gets the project started and saves the existing permission and gets the enabling works out of the way. There will be a year or twos worth of work before a contract for the tunnel can be awarded anyway and if funds are not available at that time, the can can be kicked a bit further. Maybe electrify the Maynooth line as another enabling works project. It would be criminal to allow this to slip because if the existing permission lapses, it is unlikely the project will be considered again given long winding Luas journeys now seems to be decided as the solution for all of Dublins transport problems.

Forget this airport Luas nonsense, two proper Dart lines serving the city centre will be a lot more beneficial to the city. Even KPRII is probably more beneficial with the imminent opening of the PPT than and under capacity Luas which doesn’t actually go to the airport and would be cheaper too. Even if they need to make up ten more enabling projects before a TBM goes into the ground, DU should be the ultimate goal and spending should be preparing for its eventual delivery.

Captain Chaos

robert muldoon wrote: »

I am curious with the new extension cross city that is being built.Will they be able to move trams from one line to another ,ie green to red and vice versa , if they just cross each other I can't see how they do this ???

Yes they can move trams if needed, there will be a T junction at Abbey street stop just for moving trams if/when needed and possibly for clearing failures. It will not be used for services. It will be like a smaller basic version of the delta junction between Connolly and Busaras.

LXFlyer

robert muldoon wrote: »

I am curious with the new extension cross city that is being built.Will they be able to move trams from one line to another ,ie green to red and vice versa , if they just cross each other I can't see how they do this ???

There will be a connection installed between the two lines but it will not be used for public tram movements, only for engineering requirements.

The two lines will remain operationally independent of one another.

robert muldoon

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Trams would not have the capacity. As it is 8 car DARTs are transporting 800+ people at a time during rush hour at 15 min intervals and even now that just about enough, frequency demands are going up with the new time table to meet current demands. Even 80 metre Luas trams if they existed would not be able to cope.

The
DART underground is the only sensible solution with future capacity growth built in, we need a heavy rail option not light rail.

The Dart and Luas are not designed for airport use, remember there is a big luggage issue, unless they redesign the carriages and that is unlikely

pclive

I reckon the only thing that can save the interconnector now is a change in government as the minister is from Phibsborough the only solution that he will be considering is the Luas extension from Phibsborough to the airport.

robert muldoon

pclive wrote: »

I reckon the only thing that can save the interconnector now is a change in government as the minister is from Phibsborough the only solution that he will be considering is the Luas extension from Phibsborough to the airport.

I don't believe any one politician no matter what party he's from will dictate the preferred route on this one

McAlban

lxflyer wrote: »

There will be a connection installed between the two lines but it will not be used for public tram movements, only for engineering requirements.

The two lines will remain operationally independent of one another.

That's not a major issue really, what needs to be done though is scrapping the Green / Red line monikers.

Taking a Holistic View of the network e.g. Luas 1 (L1) from Connolly to Tallaght, L2 from The Point to Saggart, L3 from Brides Glen to Broombridge.

Captain Chaos

robert muldoon wrote: »

The Dart and Luas are not designed for airport use, remember there is a big luggage issue, unless they redesign the carriages and that is unlikely

The DART is fine for luggage especially the 8500 class even on peak time services there are buggies and bikes all over them when there shouldn't be any bikes. The Luas is a pain even with a laptop bag alright.

The 29000 DMUs are also fine for airport type services. ICRs not so.

LXFlyer

McAlban wrote: »

That's not a major issue really, what needs to be done though is scrapping the Green / Red line monikers.

Taking a Holistic View of the network e.g. Luas 1 (L1) from Connolly to Tallaght, L2 from The Point to Saggart, L3 from Brides Glen to Broombridge.

Possibly - but the destination is clearly shown on every single tram in multiple locations so I don't really see it as a huge issue right now, unless more lines are added.

Also trams won't be going from Brides Glen to Broombridge (except maybe on Sundays!).

SeanW

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Decision on new DART line due by next month



At least its getting a bit of coverage now though. Decision time pushed back to the "Autumn".

Little bit from the DOT in that article that almost made me throw up:

However, the project has been suspended until the Government unveils a long-term capital investment plan in the autumn.


The Department of Transport said a decision from the Government would be taken on whether the project will go ahead in advance of the deadline passing.

"A project of this scale needs very careful consideration and evaluation," it said.

Irish Independent

Seriously? What has the DOT been doing for the past 10 years???

Idbatterim

I read somewhere earlier, that construction would take 6-7 years! For god sake at this stage, do whatever needs to be done, so that the planning permission does not lapse!

these large and much needed capital investments could be a big boost to the economy. I have to say, I am getting more dismayed by the day. Another poster on another thread, mentioned FG being too cautious, I agree...

Seriously? What has the DOT been doing for the past 10 years???

Agreed, at this stage, DU and MN or alternatively the Luas situation, are just gone beyond a joke, far, far beyond a joke!

IE 222

Darts are perfect for airport runs. They can work in different multiples sets, larger carriages, offer more connections, faster more comfortable seating and most better loading/unloading.

Although the main users will be irish but a tourist using it will get a much better first impression than been cramped on a luas that will most likely take 50+ mins to travel into town.

Improvements could be made like, at the top of each unit remove two rows of seats and put luggage racks and flip down seats in also overhead storage like intercity trains or If demand is very high they could develop 4 car units as a AER DART designed especially for airport runs every 10 - 15 mins with limited stops at malahide and howth jtc terminating at connolly only take a little over 20 mins if timetabled properly.

Idbatterim

In relation to the above, they would be ordering loads of new carriages, they would have to, so they can have them fitted out as needs be...

Although the main users will be irish but a tourist using it will get a much better first impression than been cramped on a luas that will most likely take 50+ mins to travel into town.

When I first heard this Luas sham muted, I was in disbelief, the longer time goes on though and the more you think about it, the Luas out to the airport is so far beyond farcial, its actually incomprehensible...

IE 222

[QUOTE=lxflyer;96509666)

Also trams won't be going from Brides Glen to Broombridge (except maybe on Sundays!).[/QUOTE]

This meaning that a change will be needed at SSG or they wont be timetabled for that route.

LXFlyer

That means the planned operating pattern will be Sandyford-Broombridge and Bride's Glen-Parnell as I've posted on these boards numerous times before.

IE 222

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The government need to approve DU, progress with CPOs and commission KPRII. Even if they have no intention of building the tunnel, that at least gets the project started and saves the existing permission and gets the enabling works out of the way. There will be a year or twos worth of work before a contract for the tunnel can be awarded anyway and if funds are not available at that time, the can can be kicked a bit further. Maybe electrify the Maynooth line as another enabling works project. It would be criminal to allow this to slip because if the existing permission lapses, it is unlikely the project will be considered again given long winding Luas journeys now seems to be decided as the solution for all of Dublins transport problems.

Forget this airport Luas nonsense, two proper Dart lines serving the city centre will be a lot more beneficial to the city. Even KPRII is probably more beneficial with the imminent opening of the PPT than and under capacity Luas which doesn’t actually go to the airport and would be cheaper too. Even if they need to make up ten more enabling projects before a TBM goes into the ground, DU should be the ultimate goal and spending should be preparing for its eventual delivery.

The PPT will work the krpll before dart interconnecter is up and running. Personally i feel dart to clonsilla is better option and allow express commutter run from connolly platform 7 via newcomen rd non stop to clonsilla and onto maynooth/longford. Dart and kildare will sever drumcondra.

robert muldoon

McAlban wrote: »

That's not a major issue really, what needs to be done though is scrapping the Green / Red line monikers.

Taking a Holistic View of the network e.g. Luas 1 (L1) from Connolly to Tallaght, L2 from The Point to Saggart, L3 from Brides Glen to Broombridge.

Where I was coming from was if they needed to put extra trams on a particular line on a particular day that they could do it