DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

Captain Chaos

robert muldoon wrote: »

Where I was coming from was if they needed to put extra trams on a particular line on a particular day that they could do it

They can't really add green line trams to the red as they are too long for the platforms but they can add red trams to the green.

Either way it's best to not think about it until they can extend all platforms on all lines to 53 metres at least.

LXFlyer

robert muldoon wrote: »

Where I was coming from was if they needed to put extra trams on a particular line on a particular day that they could do it

They won't be swapping trams from one line to the other - there are enough for both.

McAlban

lxflyer wrote: »

They won't be swapping trams from one line to the other - there are enough for both.

At the moment. but what happens when the ecomomy really takes off and we possibly need an increase in frequency?

See my earlier post about extending MN to Rush & Lusk... if it ever gets built. Plans are far too short sighted. It's the same as not extending the Luas Green Line to Daly Station. Joined up thinking like this at the beginning would reduce overcrowding on current servces that are over capacity every day.

Idbatterim

See my earlier post about extending MN to Rush & Lusk... if it ever gets built. Plans are far too short sighted. It's the same as not extending the Luas Green Line to Daly Station. Joined up thinking like this at the beginning would reduce overcrowding on current servces that are over capacity every day.

I agree about connecting lines! Its simply beyond a joke, to run two lines that close to one another and not connect them! Whatever option they go with, should connect with northern line! The fact we are even discussing this, shows the mockery of the "planning" system here...

Pete_Cavan

IE 222 wrote: »

The PPT will work the krpll before dart interconnecter is up and running. Personally i feel dart to clonsilla is better option and allow express commutter run from connolly platform 7 via newcomen rd non stop to clonsilla and onto maynooth/longford. Dart and kildare will sever drumcondra.

Not really sure what you are getting at. My point was that as KPRII is a vital part of DU, it could be proceeded with immediately under the guise of commencing DU to retain the existing planning permission without committing to the full cost of the tunnel. It could buy the government an extra two years before they have to commit to the tunnel. KPRII is a decent project in its own right and even more so with the opening of the PPT to commuter services.

LXFlyer

McAlban wrote: »

At the moment. but what happens when the ecomomy really takes off and we possibly need an increase in frequency?

See my earlier post about extending MN to Rush & Lusk... if it ever gets built. Plans are far too short sighted. It's the same as not extending the Luas Green Line to Daly Station. Joined up thinking like this at the beginning would reduce overcrowding on current servces that are over capacity every day.

You would order new trams in that scenario - you're not going to rob trams from one line to the other.

The trams are needed for each line as it is - given the different lengths, they are not going to be swapped around.

The connections will be there but will only be used for engineering purposes.

IE 222

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Not really sure what you are getting at. My point was that as KPRII is a vital part of DU, it could be proceeded with immediately under the guise of commencing DU to retain the existing planning permission without committing to the full cost of the tunnel. It could buy the government an extra two years before they have to commit to the tunnel. KPRII is a decent project in its own right and even more so with the opening of the PPT to commuter services.

i agree with you. What I'm saying is that by using the PPT instead of DU can make use of the KPRII when up and running.

monument

IE 222 wrote: »

i agree with you. What I'm saying is that by using the PPT instead of DU can make use of the KPRII when up and running.

KPRII is planned to go to the Dart Underground portal location at the Inchicore railway works.

There is no planned or envisaged KPRII-scale upgrade between Inchicore and the PPT.

LXFlyer

I presume you all mean KRP 2? I've no idea what KPR is!

IE 222

monument wrote: »

KPRII is planned to go to the Dart Underground portal location at the Inchicore railway works.

There is no planned or envisaged KPRII-scale upgrade between Inchicore and the PPT.

Yes i understand that. I was giving a suggestion that the kildare part of the project could be done now while waiting for DU to be developed. If there was no start date in the near future PPT could be used as a route till DU comes into service

IE 222

lxflyer wrote: »

I presume you all mean KRP 2? I've no idea what KPR is!

Yeah, mobile auto text. KRP is correct.

strassenwo!f

One of the problems may be that IE don't appear to have ever even considered a direct route across the city.

They do seem to have been very preoccupied with building a rather circuitous route via St. Stephen's Green

monument

Moderator warning to all:

strassenwo!f wrote: »

One of the problems may be that IE don't appear to have ever even considered a direct route across the city.

They do seem to have been very preoccupied with building a rather circuitous route via St. Stephen's Green

If anybody wants to talk about this please use the thread set up for this reason.

Talking about it here will be viewed as off-topic and disruptive posting.

-- Moderator

schemingbohemia

monument wrote: »

Moderator warning to all:



If anybody wants to talk about this please use the thread set up for this reason.

Talking about it here will be viewed as off-topic and disruptive posting.

-- Moderator

Where's that other thread?

LXFlyer

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Where's that other thread?

It's here, although you may lose the will to live if you read all the way through it:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057289979

strassenwo!f

So, when does it run out?

Is it the beginning, or the middle, or the end of September?

annfield1978

http://www.mhc.ie/latest/insights/construction-law-update-dart-underground-scope-of-planning-order-successfully-challenged

The Court directed that the Railway Order be amended to reduce the time for CIÉ to serve a notice to treat to 18 months, from the date of the Court’s order on 25 March 2014.

jd

Dan White had his crayons out in the Evening Herald!!
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html

A longer-term solution would be to construct a tunnel under the Liffey between Heuston and Connolly.
Not alone would such a tunnel be much shorter than Dart Underground, less than five kilometres, it would also be far cheaper, as it could be constructed using the cut-and-cover method.

pclive

jd wrote: »

Dan White had his crayons out in the Evening Herald!!
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html

"As is the case with Metro North's likely spur from the Dart line to Dublin Airport, reopening the existing link between Heuston and Connolly and/or building a cut-and-cover tunnel under the Liffey offers a far cheaper solution to Dublin's public transport problems than the grandiose project proposed during the Celtic Tiger era."

Cut and cover option.....under the LIFFEY! Good man Dan!

dazberry

jd wrote: »

Dan White had his crayons out in the Evening Herald!!
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html

It's obvious Dan doesn't actually understand what the DU is/was about so can't see it as anything beyond connecting Heuston and Connolly. Why is this man allowed write in a newspaper?

D.

cgcsb

jd wrote: »

Dan White had his crayons out in the Evening Herald!!
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html

dumbfounded. How can such things get past an editor? ignorant drivel.

Banjoxed

dazberry wrote: »

It's obvious Dan doesn't actually understand what the DU is/was about so can't see it as anything beyond connecting Heuston and Connolly. Why is this man allowed write in a newspaper?

D.

The same reason why the Indo promoted Cormac Rabbitte and Rudi Monahan's scheme.

IE 222

The more i read these articles and here about they geniuses it makes me wonder if there is actually anyone in charge capable of deciding and finalising a plan. People are basing the decision on what dublin needs now or can afford. Regardless whats decided by the time its built dublin will need something bigger and more expandable and expensive.

With the region expected to grow over 2 million in the next few years we need to look at the future and what is needed to work. The system can hardly cope as it is. By the time any thing is built we will be close to 2.5 million.

Dublin airport is growing fast and will need a system that does more than just bring travellers into town. The airport is a 24hr operation. What good is it bringing people into town between 1-6am if they cant go any further.

Metro is useless and is only some political fantasy that offers very little for the dublin region overall. Whats the point in ferrying people from the airport to a dead end in the middle of the city center to then change mode of transport again and clogging up already congested services.

Luas is great but is very limited. Luas depends on using the road network in most areas and will eventually create other problems as it will only ever serve a small portion of people.

Dart is possible, as it can be so easily connected to so many routes already in place. Dart will have greater capacity and better range. Its the one system and it connects directly to the country as a whole. Future development will only require one or two more tunnelling projects if needed and feed directly into the current system. Dart will eventually deliver what its name suggests as currently it restricted along the cost line and not necessarily the dublin area.

LXFlyer

And what about the rest of the central corridor in North Dublin.

The issue is not and should not be serving the Airport.

The issue is solving the transport issues of the entire length of the central North Dublin corridors.

Im sick to the teeth of reading posts that just focus on getting people from the airport to town. This is NOT the issue. What about airport employees, people who need to get from Santry to Swords, from Drumcondra to the Airport, etc.

What's needed is a multi-level solution.

A DART spur is good but only if it accompanies DART Underground. But something else will be needed to serve the central corridor - be that LUAS, Metro or BRT.

Idbatterim

IE222, you are spot on. I made this point a while back on this thread, I actually feel like I am taking crazy pills! MN would probably be more attractive if it could feed into the existing green line, but it cant, due to that not having adequate capacity :rolleyes: I agree with the dart going out there, as eventually, we can have trains going direct from cork, limerick etc...

thats why I cant believe the notion that the luas was even put forward! Either a luas or MN would be over 5 years away from completion even after ok is given. Can we even begin to imagine what it is going to be like here in 5 years again, traffic wise? never mind actually going forward from that.

Dublin needs something that can serve dublin and the entire region and allow people commute in viably and open massive amounts of land for development...

And what about the rest of the central corridor in North Dublin.

The issue is not and should not be serving the Airport.

this is another big issue... MN or luas out to the airport at some stage in the future? Or I asked if this would be feasible earlier. Combine DU and route onto swords into one project, would that be viable?

IE 222

lxflyer wrote: »

And what about the rest of the central corridor in North Dublin.

The issue is not and should not be serving the Airport.

The issue is solving the transport issues of the entire length of the central North Dublin corridors.

Im sick to the teeth of reading posts that just focus on getting people from the airport to town. This is NOT the issue. What about airport employees, people who need to get from Santry to Swords, from Drumcondra to the Airport, etc.

What's needed is a multi-level solution.

A DART spur is good but only if it accompanies DART Underground. But something else will be needed to serve the central corridor - be that LUAS, Metro or BRT.

As i said Dart allows for better and future upgrading and expansion. I did say it allows for another one or two tunneling projects if needed.

By using dart we will be maximising the current system and future costs will be cut which can be used in further routes been developed.

Personally I'd bring dart from malahide serving swords and airport with options later to expand through santry ballymum and into finglas to link again with maynooth line.

I've nothing against MN routing and idea as such but what it delivers, by having a separated feeder service is a waste and only provides a service to the small area that you suggest.
Where if we used dart in a MN type routing the whole region benefits with nearly country wide connections.

MN is less likely these days so a better propose dart system would be wise. We need to start building for the future and not the current.

LXFlyer

IE 222 wrote: »

As i said Dart allows for better and future upgrading and expansion. I did say it allows for another one or two tunneling projects if needed.

By using dart we will be maximising the current system and future costs will be cut which can be used in further routes been developed.

Personally I'd bring dart from malahide serving swords and airport with options later to expand through santry ballymum and into finglas to link again with maynooth line.

I've nothing against MN routing and idea as such but what it delivers, by having a separated feeder service is a waste and only provides a service to the small area that you suggest.
Where if we used dart in a MN type routing the whole region benefits with nearly country wide connections.

MN is less likely these days so a better propose dart system would be wise. We need to start building for the future and not the current.

Metro North, LUAS or indeed BRT are not "feeder routes".

They are core routes providing journey opportunities along the Swords corridor (and Ballymun corridor for both LUAS/MN).

You seem to be ignoring all the people who use travel from points all along those corridors to get into the city (and indeed outbound to industrial parks) to work. They are the majority of potential passengers and the majority of them are not going cross-city - they are going along the radial corridors.

They have to be catered for by whatever solution is announced.

I'm all in favour of a DART spur from Clongriffin, (as long as it is with DART Underground), but something else will have to be done to serve the Swords and Ballymun corridors as the DART spur will only cope with a minority of the passengers on those routes.

Chris_5339762

DART underground is the most important link that will ever be constructed, and I really, really hope it comes to fruition. It'll join EVERYTHING up in some way shape or form.

IE 222

lxflyer wrote: »

Metro North, LUAS or indeed BRT are not "feeder routes".

They are core routes providing journey opportunities along the Swords corridor (and Ballymun corridor for both LUAS/MN).

You seem to be ignoring all the people who use travel from points all along those corridors to get into the city (and indeed outbound to industrial parks) to work. They are the majority of potential passengers and the majority of them are not going cross-city - they are going along the radial corridors.

They have to be catered for by whatever solution is announced.

I'm all in favour of a DART spur from Clongriffin, (as long as it is with DART Underground), but something else will have to be done to serve the Swords and Ballymun corridors as the DART spur will only cope with a minority of the passengers on those routes.

MN on its own is to no great benefit to the city overall. Its only provides a extra system for the areas you mentioned. Its only a fancy extra in the city. It will be feeder/shuttle from one point to another and no more. Great if you live in them areas.

Where as if dart was revised with DU, Airport link and MN into the one system the whole region will benefit not just dublin. I agree these areas need to be covered by rail but its important to build the right rail link not.

To build new rail links around dublin will involve extensive tunneling regardless but by making better use of the current system can deliver a bigger and more usable network.

As i said Luas is a great system but it restricted for future developments and there is not much point serving districts with two or three different rail networks.

IE 222

Idbatterim wrote: »

IE222, you are spot on. I made this point a while back on this thread, I actually feel like I am taking crazy pills! MN would probably be more attractive if it could feed into the existing green line, but it cant, due to that not having adequate capacity :rolleyes: I agree with the dart going out there, as eventually, we can have trains going direct from cork, limerick etc...

thats why I cant believe the notion that the luas was even put forward! Either a luas or MN would be over 5 years away from completion even after ok is given. Can we even begin to imagine what it is going to be like here in 5 years again, traffic wise? never mind actually going forward from that.

Dublin needs something that can serve dublin and the entire region and allow people commute in viably and open massive amounts of land for development...

this is another big issue... MN or luas out to the airport at some stage in the future? Or I asked if this would be feasible earlier. Combine DU and route onto swords into one project, would that be viable?

Id be surprised if a hole is dug in 5 years. Metro will need at least 4 or 5 lines to benefit everyone, dart/suburban already has 4 with some branch offs. Buy building DU & airport link creates a big integrated network with current infrastructure.

The next phase can then be a revised MN incorporated by dart and luas. If dart was to branch at clongriffin then the airport could be made to into a junction as well with a line running north for swords and newer developments. Another line could branch south to serve santry,ballymun and Poppintree finglas and terminate at broombridge meeting luas plus maynooth line darts.

The luas from broombridge could be extended to serve dcu whitehall artane coolock darndale and onto clongriffin.

These kind of lines provide better integrated services, less modes of transport and every where is connected at multiple points to the whole city.

Icepick

Dart doesn't have the capacity to support the areas MN will.
Luas is a poor alternative as well.

Grandeeod

IE 222 wrote: »

Id be surprised if a hole is dug in 5 years. Metro will need at least 4 or 5 lines to benefit everyone, dart/suburban already has 4 with some branch offs. Buy building DU & airport link creates a big integrated network with current infrastructure.

The next phase can then be a revised MN incorporated by dart and luas. If dart was to branch at clongriffin then the airport could be made to into a junction as well with a line running north for swords and newer developments. Another line could branch south to serve santry,ballymun and Poppintree finglas and terminate at broombridge meeting luas plus maynooth line darts.

The luas from broombridge could be extended to serve dcu whitehall artane coolock darndale and onto clongriffin.

These kind of lines provide better integrated services, less modes of transport and every where is connected at multiple points to the whole city.

You are stuck in the 1970s and clueless about the political interference that is a fact of life. But in saying that, I'm also stuck in the 70s and constantly thinking about the olriginal DART plan......oh wait....that wasn't built either.:D You need to appreciate that there is a political indifference to implementing a detailed rail plan for Dublin. We have been here before and we will constantly revisit it and revise it and revise it, while doing sweet FA! Maybe someday, but absolutely not in near future. Sorry for being so negative, but I predict a re-routing of DU to adapt to a changing Duiblin and that should drag it out for another 30 odd years.

Ireland doesn't do rail transport.

end of the road

Icepick wrote: »

Dart doesn't have the capacity to support the areas MN will.
Luas is a poor alternative as well.

dart will have more capacity then MN ever could. it would require building new lines and putting in extra tracking on the current line north to south where possible but it can be done and it would be a better solution then MN. i definitely agree luas is a poor choice and to build it as the mainstay rather then an add on maybe later on is selling the city short as per usual

IE 222

Icepick wrote: »

Dart doesn't have the capacity to support the areas MN will.
Luas is a poor alternative as well.

Dart along with other services will have more capacity. Think MN would have 20,000/ph heavy rail into out of connolly with out interconnector will have over 30,000/ph.

Luas would never work. The only way i could see a luas work with airport is by avoiding the terminals and only stopping somewhere on the outskirts for workers to use.

IE 222

Grandeeod wrote: »

You are stuck in the 1970s and clueless about the political interference that is a fact of life. But in saying that, I'm also stuck in the 70s and constantly thinking about the olriginal DART plan......oh wait....that wasn't built either.:D You need to appreciate that there is a political indifference to implementing a detailed rail plan for Dublin. We have been here before and we will constantly revisit it and revise it and revise it, while doing sweet FA! Maybe someday, but absolutely not in near future. Sorry for being so negative, but I predict a re-routing of DU to adapt to a changing Duiblin and that should drag it out for another 30 odd years.

Ireland doesn't do rail transport.

That's the problem all these projects are politically controlled. I do believe something will be built but it will be left so short sighted. What ends up been built in 2030ish will be for 2007 demand. That the unfortunate truth. Instead something will only be built when it costs treble the amount than when first purposed.

The funny thing is if they started building now and used there heads it probably wouldn't cost as much as they think.

pclive

Can people take a minute today and e-mail the Minister with their opinion/concerns on Dart Underground.

The Minister can be contacted at minister@dttas.ie

McAlban

MN only works if it is a commuter route for Swords and outlying areas around it AND the Airport service. It's the third biggest town in the state, the 8th Largest Urban area in the country and barring Navan the only one of the top twenty without a rail link. For a town that size not to be connected to the City Centre 14km away by a mass transit system is a joke quite frankly. THE QBC's can provide transit through Cloghran, Santry, Drumcondra etc. MN is needed for that corridor as LXFlyer has said again and again on this thread.

I can't believe that people think the Dart Spur is a good idea. Shoving more traffic down the northern Line into Connolly. It simply won't work without DU and even then it just add's more traffic into an already crowded system. There is not enough capacity in the existing network to accomodate the addtional traffic from Dublin Airport. Hence a direct rail link is the best option.

As I said already. MN needs be built, It should be extended to Rush and Lusk Station to reduce some of the overcrowding on the Northern Line. Without engaging in Crayonism, it should be extended to maybe UCD or even down the Harolds Cross / Terenure / Ballyboden corridor. This would provide a cross city service.

McAlban

MN only works if it is a commuter route for Swords and outlying areas around it AND the Airport service. It's the third biggest town in the state, the 8th Largest Urban area in the country and barring Navan the only one of the top twenty without a rail link. For a town that size not to be connected to the City Centre 14km away by a mass transit system is a joke quite frankly. THE QBC's can provide transit through Cloghran, Santry, Drumcondra etc. MN is needed for that corridor as LXFlyer has said again and again on this thread.

I can't believe that people think the Dart Spur is a good idea. Shoving more traffic down the northern Line into Connolly. It simply won't work without DU and even then it just add's more traffic into an already crowded system. There is not enough capacity in the existing network to accomodate the addtional traffic from Dublin Airport. Hence a direct rail link is the best option.

As I said already. MN needs be built, It should be extended to Rush and Lusk Station to reduce some of the overcrowding on the Northern Line. Without engaging in Crayonism, it should be extended to maybe UCD or even down the Harolds Cross / Terenure / Ballyboden corridor. This would provide a cross city service.

LXFlyer

McAlban wrote: »

MN only works if it is a commuter route for Swords and outlying areas around it AND the Airport service. It's the third biggest town in the state, the 8th Largest Urban area in the country and barring Navan the only one of the top twenty without a rail link. For a town that size not to be connected to the City Centre 14km away by a mass transit system is a joke quite frankly. THE QBC's can provide transit through Cloghran, Santry, Drumcondra etc. MN is needed for that corridor as LXFlyer has said again and again on this thread.

I can't believe that people think the Dart Spur is a good idea. Shoving more traffic down the northern Line into Connolly. It simply won't work without DU and even then it just add's more traffic into an already crowded system. There is not enough capacity in the existing network to accomodate the addtional traffic from Dublin Airport. Hence a direct rail link is the best option.

As I said already. MN needs be built, It should be extended to Rush and Lusk Station to reduce some of the overcrowding on the Northern Line. Without engaging in Crayonism, it should be extended to maybe UCD or even down the Harolds Cross / Terenure / Ballyboden corridor. This would provide a cross city service.

To correct you - the DART spur can work. Frequency is going to be increased to every 10 minutes in 2016 following completion of the resignalling project which will facilitate more trains. Existing trains would serve the airport - it would probably mean an off-peak shuttle on the Howth branch and more commuter services filling in at Portmarnock and Malahide.

McAlban

lxflyer wrote: »

To correct you - the DART spur can work. Frequency is going to be increased to every 10 minutes in 2016 following completion of the resignalling project which will facilitate more trains. Existing trains would serve the airport - it would probably mean an off-peak shuttle on the Howth branch and more commuter services filling in at Portmarnock and Malahide.

Frequency isn't everything however, It's all very well if there's a service every 10 minutes if it takes 35 minutes to get to Connolly due to the congestion and speed restrictions between Clontarf Road and Connolly. Adding more commuter services will only make this worse.

Compare to Olso Airport - Oslo Central. about 25 minutes to travel 50km on a dedicated service.

LXFlyer

McAlban wrote: »

Frequency isn't everything however, It's all very well if there's a service every 10 minutes if it takes 35 minutes to get to Connolly due to the congestion and speed restrictions between Clontarf Road and Connolly. Adding more commuter services will only make this worse.

Compare to Olso Airport - Oslo Central. about 25 minutes to travel 50km on a dedicated service.

Ah but now you are making the same mistake as others.

It would also facilitate people living in northeast Dublin who work in the airport as well as potential passengers.

Journey time would be about 24 minutes to Connolly (same as from Malahide), and once again the line is being resignalled to cope with the additional frequency that is being added, and it will be more than capable of coping with it.

I'm using Connolly purely for indicative timing purposes - I would only be in favour of it if it is coupled with DART Underground and other measures are put in place to serve the central corridors. Journey time to SSG would probably be roughly 27-28 minutes.

cgcsb

McAlban wrote: »

MN only works if it is a commuter route for Swords and outlying areas around it AND the Airport service. It's the third biggest town in the state, the 8th Largest Urban area in the country and barring Navan the only one of the top twenty without a rail link. For a town that size not to be connected to the City Centre 14km away by a mass transit system is a joke quite frankly. THE QBC's can provide transit through Cloghran, Santry, Drumcondra etc. MN is needed for that corridor as LXFlyer has said again and again on this thread.

I can't believe that people think the Dart Spur is a good idea. Shoving more traffic down the northern Line into Connolly. It simply won't work without DU and even then it just add's more traffic into an already crowded system. There is not enough capacity in the existing network to accomodate the addtional traffic from Dublin Airport. Hence a direct rail link is the best option.

As I said already. MN needs be built, It should be extended to Rush and Lusk Station to reduce some of the overcrowding on the Northern Line. Without engaging in Crayonism, it should be extended to maybe UCD or even down the Harolds Cross / Terenure / Ballyboden corridor. This would provide a cross city service.

While I agree regarding Metro North, the DART spur may be useful in it's self. Plenty of other Cities have both mainline rail and a metro/light rail connection to their airport.

The DART spur would be very useful if you wish to access the airport from stations outside of Dublin, especially if you're coming from the Belfast direction.

Of course it can only be built after DARTu owing to capacity constraints. Is it a replacement for metro N? absolutely not, it can bring something different to the market though.

end of the road

McAlban wrote: »

I can't believe that people think the Dart Spur is a good idea.

because it is . coupled with DU, extra tracking of the current dart line where possible, building the mn route as a heavy rail link along with an airport link will give greater connectivity and economies of scale. and its not as if extra stock won't be bought for it it will have to be.

McAlban wrote: »

Shoving more traffic down the northern Line into Connolly.

its going to happen eventually though. plans exist to increase the dart frequency

McAlban wrote: »

It simply won't work without DU and even then it just add's more traffic into an already crowded system.

not if proper upgrades were to be carried out

McAlban wrote: »

There is not enough capacity in the existing network to accomodate the addtional traffic from Dublin Airport.

well, that can be sorted by upgrading the network, something which needs doing anyway.

schemingbohemia

lxflyer wrote: »

To correct you - the DART spur can work. Frequency is going to be increased to every 10 minutes in 2016 following completion of the resignalling project which will facilitate more trains. Existing trains would serve the airport - it would probably mean an off-peak shuttle on the Howth branch and more commuter services filling in at Portmarnock and Malahide.

It can work, most things can be engineered to work, but what real benefit does it serve? If it doesn't go past the Airport to Swords it's just a very expensive replacement for the 747, it's going through virgin fields with no station planned between Clongriffin and the Airport. It won't even end up very close to the Terminals.

LXFlyer

schemingbohemia wrote: »

It can work, most things can be engineered to work, but what real benefit does it serve? If it doesn't go past the Airport to Swords it's just a very expensive replacement for the 747, it's going through virgin fields with no station planned between Clongriffin and the Airport. It won't even end up very close to the Terminals.

It wouldn't be an express service - it would be the normal stopping service linking northeast Dublin with the Airport. Apart from the area served by the 102 bus, there are large swathes of that area with no connection to the airport. It would therefore certainly offer more than the 747.

Do you have any evidence that the station would not be beside the terminals? I've not seen detailed design plans. All we have seen are indicative plans - that could still change.

McAlban

The fear I would have is that the Dart Spur is seen as a long term solution rather than a stop gap measure.

I agree that plenty of other cities have multiple rail links to the airport and as an experienced traveller I have used them and know that having options is a great thing.

MN will see a return on investment maybe not straight away but eventually. Like the Luas it would be heavily used. and Like the DU article above, any naysayer saying its a waste of time and doens't fill a public need is just wrong.

Idbatterim

The fear I would have is that the Dart Spur is seen as a long term solution rather than a stop gap measure.

what if it were a stop gap measure and build MN eventually? Even if it terminated at the airport?

Avada

I myself would actually be in favour of both MN and a DART sour. They serve different populations. For example DART could serve the coastal areas, Clontarf, Raheny, Bayside and with 1 change Sutton and Howth. It could also allow for People travelling by train from Balbriggan, Drogheda, Dundalk and even as far as Belfast to get to the airport by public transport (The numbers using Dublin Airport from NI are quite high). Whilst Metro North would serve all the planned areas with an airport link and a good commuter service.

The major problem with the DART idea, and possible MN, are the hours it operates. Peak time for departures in DAP is 6-8am, arriving at the airport from 3am (for early transatlantic flights). DART does not serve this.

Another major problem is the amount of Bank Holidays they shut some services for rail maintenance. This could not be done if an airport spur were to be built as bank holidays are peak times for the airport.

LXFlyer

Avada wrote: »

I myself would actually be in favour of both MN and a DART sour. They serve different populations. For example DART could serve the coastal areas, Clontarf, Raheny, Bayside and with 1 change Sutton and Howth. It could also allow for People travelling by train from Balbriggan, Drogheda, Dundalk and even as far as Belfast to get to the airport by public transport (The numbers using Dublin Airport from NI are quite high). Whilst Metro North would serve all the planned areas with an airport link and a good commuter service.

The major problem with the DART idea, and possible MN, are the hours it operates. Peak time for departures in DAP is 6-8am, arriving at the airport from 3am (for early transatlantic flights). DART does not serve this.

Another major problem is the amount of Bank Holidays they shut some services for rail maintenance. This could not be done if an airport spur were to be built as bank holidays are peak times for the airport.

If a DART spur were put in place, I would expect a core requirement to be extended operating hours.

Your estimates for suggested arrival times are somewhat off the mark. The first transatlantic flight is currently at 07:50 - arriving at 03:00 is madness!! 05:00 is plenty of time.

First shorthaul flight is 05:50, in that case 04:00 is probably sufficient time.

Avada

lxflyer wrote: »

If a DART spur were put in place, I would expect a core requirement to be extended operating hours.

You and I would expect it, but whether it happens or not is a different case.