DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

Avada

lxflyer wrote: »

Your estimates for suggested arrival times are somewhat off the mark. The first transatlantic flight is currently at 07:50 - arriving at 03:00 is madness!! 05:00 is plenty of time.

First shorthaul flight is 05:50, in that case 04:00 is probably sufficient time.

I was incorrect regarding TA flights, but for example, there is a flight leaving at 5am on Friday and that does happen regularly, so 3-3am arriving at the airport isn't far off the mark.

A lot of staff also start and finish between 2-3am as well.

LXFlyer

Avada wrote: »

I was incorrect regarding TA flights, but for example, there is a flight leaving at 5am on Friday and that does happen regularly, so 3-3am arriving at the airport isn't far off the mark.

A lot of staff also start and finish between 2-3am as well.

What flight goes at 05:00?

As far as I am aware, Lufthansa to Frankfurt is the first flight out at 05:50.

Avada

lxflyer wrote: »

What flight goes at 05:00?

As far as I am aware, Lufthansa to Frankfurt is the first flight out at 05:50.

Various charters during the summer. It's a thomson afaik.

Edit: It's 5.30am Thursday TOM1468. Shift work has fried my brain

LXFlyer

Avada wrote: »

Various charters during the summer. It's a thomson afaik.

Edit: It's 5.30am Thursday TOM1468. Shift work has fried my brain

I'm not sure you base public transport on one weekly charter but you certainly should plan around regular scheduled flights, the first of which is at 05:50.

Understandable re fried brain cells!!

brandodub

The first Luas leaves each depot at 4:30 am or so . Timetabling would be sorted out in the concession contract when DU/ MU build contracts are agreed by TII

Jamie2k9

Avada wrote: »

Various charters during the summer. It's a thomson afaik.

Edit: It's 5.30am Thursday TOM1468. Shift work has fried my brain

Package holiday fork are not the type to use public transport to the airport if ever.

I don't think trams will have to meet all flights, it's impossible. Should trams meet the 01.30-02.15 departures and 04.00 arrivals?

05.00 arrival is perfectly acceptable if not 05.30, public transport to airports does not get busy until lather in the day, people only early morning flights tend to be dropped, airport shuttle or drive themselves.

Avada

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Package holiday fork are not the type to use public transport to the airport if ever.

I don't think trams will have to meet all flights, it's impossible. Should trams meet the 01.30-02.15 departures and 04.00 arrivals?

05.00 arrival is perfectly acceptable if not 05.30, public transport to airports does not get busy until lather in the day, people only early morning flights tend to be dropped, airport shuttle or drive themselves.

Don't forget the large amount of staff though as well. Arriving and leaving in large numbers at all times of the night.

Jamie2k9

Avada wrote: »

Don't forget the large amount of staff though as well. Arriving and leaving in large numbers at all times of the night.

Fair point however many live in Swords and NW of the airport towards Meath border. Some airlines provide transport and I can't see many crew etc wanting to face public transport after a days flying.

I still see little demand, generally I think the last DART departing the airport at 00.30 would be acceptable (01.30 in summer) We will never see a 24h services to meet everybody.

Banjoxed

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Package holiday fork are not the type to use public transport to the airport if ever..

I love this sort of blanket opinion, especially because it doesn't tally at all with my experiences everywhere else in these islands.

syklops

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Should trams meet the 01.30-02.15 departures and 04.00 arrivals?

Why should they not? Why can't you have a tram running every 15 minutes 24 hours a day?

Its going to cost millions to lay the tracks. Every minute the track isnt used, its bad usage of the investment.

Idbatterim

is it possible to totally automate the lines or can this only be done, when there is total segregation?

McAlban

syklops wrote: »

Why should they not? Why can't you have a tram running every 15 minutes 24 hours a day?

Its going to cost millions to lay the tracks. Every minute the track isnt used, its bad usage of the investment.

Two Reasons... the NBRU and SIPTU

McAlban

Idbatterim wrote: »

is it possible to totally automate the lines or can this only be done, when there is total segregation?

You could if we're talking about Metro North as far as the Airport.

Google Copenhagen Metro.

And then read my last post above as to why it won't work here.

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

is it possible to totally automate the lines or can this only be done, when there is total segregation?

on the dart lines i take it? i'd imagine it is possible but not advisible, or even cost effective. full automation really works on lines that are fully segregated and built with such operation in mind from the start. all though, its not as perfect as it sounds. take the DLR for example which people hold up in high regard because its automated, breakdowns and stoppages happen rather a bit

end of the road

McAlban wrote: »

Two Reasons... the NBRU and SIPTU

as they don't have a problem with 24 hour services, they are not reasons

end of the road

McAlban wrote: »

You could if we're talking about Metro North as far as the Airport.

Google Copenhagen Metro.

And then read my last post above as to why it won't work here.

again, not reasons as to why it won't work if it won't.

Jamie2k9

syklops wrote: »

Why should they not? Why can't you have a tram running every 15 minutes 24 hours a day?

Its going to cost millions to lay the tracks. Every minute the track isnt used, its bad usage of the investment.

Tell me what other major airports that have such a service, the simple fact is running a train is not like running a bus, signal staff, security, station staff, drivers and so on.

Anyway running 24/7 to City Centre is pointless how are people supposed to get home from there. BTW London are only getting 2 lines 24/7 on weekends and you expect Dublin have a 24/7 prospective please.....

I love this sort of blanket opinion, especially because it doesn't tally at all with my experiences everywhere else in these islands.

Package holidays are aimed at families and are a family going to walk with dozens of bags to a local station or pay to park at that station for a week just to take a train to the airport when it's would be the same if not cheaper to drive and park at the airport. There is also the fact that people don't like leaving really early for the airport which public transport would require. Also not forgetting the fact that an airport link is serving a tiny minority of passengers who would use the airport.

The times I suggest are airport norms globally.

McAlban

end of the road wrote: »

as they don't have a problem with 24 hour services, they are not reasons

They don't have a problem as long as they can get as much Overtime, Benefits and Time off in Lieu out of CIÉ for their members as they can, normally after they disrupt the service with strikes costing CIÉ millions and inconveniencing passengers and indeed turning passengers to other modes. Just take a Look at what's happening with TFL at the moment. You saying CIÉ announcing additional late night services won’t drag them down into an industrial dispute?

end of the road wrote: »

again, not reasons as to why it won't work if it won't.

MN can work automated, in Much the same way CPH Metro does. But Only where it is segregated from SSG to Fosterstown, the Route along Swords bypass is not suitable.

Driverless trains cost SIPTU and NBRU their valuable union dues so I cannot see them going for it. They will cite every safety reason, reference every rail accident in recent years etc. Until you end up with the "Automated" train system being monitored by a NBRU/Siptu member unnecessarily.

When KRP Signal automation started originally CIÉ tried to re-assign some signal guys and I have heard NBRU managed to keep some of those guys in their signal cabins doing basically nothing till their defined benefit pension was ready. (Heard this from an engineer who actually worked on the project)

end of the road

McAlban wrote: »

They don't have a problem as long as they can get as much Overtime, Benefits and Time off in Lieu out of CIÉ for their members as they can, normally after they disrupt the service with strikes costing CIÉ millions and inconveniencing passengers and indeed turning passengers to other modes. Just take a Look at what's happening with TFL at the moment. You saying CIÉ announcing additional late night services won’t drag them down into an industrial dispute?

rubbish. strikes only ever happen if there is a real issue and after all other options have been exausted. they do not have a problem with a 24 hour service. oh i have taken a look at what is happening with tfl, they are trying to force changes upon the workers and refuse to listen to any issues dispite having a long time to do so since the night weekend tube has been planned for a couple of years. CIE announcing additional late night services won't automatically drag anyone into an industrial dispute once any concerns and issues are addressed in a fair and timely manner.

McAlban wrote: »

MN can work automated, in Much the same way CPH Metro does. But Only where it is segregated from SSG to Fosterstown, the Route along Swords bypass is not suitable.

thats what i said all ready. however, your "reasons" as to why it supposibly won't work don't stand up and are untrue.

McAlban wrote: »

Driverless trains cost SIPTU and NBRU their valuable union dues so I cannot see them going for it.

cost some maybe. but also the fact that driverless trains aren't as perfect or good as is made out anyway. even their supposed benefits are actually very debatible.

McAlban wrote: »

They will cite every safety reason, reference every rail accident in recent years etc.

and rightly so

McAlban wrote: »

Until you end up with the "Automated" train system being monitored by a NBRU/Siptu member unnecessarily.

very necessarily. automated trains will most likely have someone monitoring them anyway. so may as well have a union official doing it along with whoever is doing it to ensure the rules are being abided by.

McAlban wrote: »

When KRP Signal automation started originally CIÉ tried to re-assign some signal guys and I have heard NBRU managed to keep some of those guys in their signal cabins doing basically nothing till their defined benefit pension was ready.

i'm sure you heard that all right.

McAlban wrote: »

(Heard this from an engineer who actually worked on the project)

i heard that all CIE staff receive bars of gold at christmas and on their birthdays. i heard that from the boss of the company himself. don't believe everything you hear from some "engineer" you supposibly talked to

markpb

end of the road wrote: »

i'm sure you heard that all right.

i heard that all CIE staff receive bars of gold at christmas and on their birthdays. i heard that from the boss of the company himself. don't believe everything you hear from some "engineer" you supposibly talked to

I don't know why you find that so hard to believe. An Post, Eircom, the HSE and other semi-states and former semi-states all have RBUs where staff that are no longer required but are protected by the unions are paid to clock in, do nothing and clock out every day until retirement. It's not exactly a secret, nor is it a conspiracy - it's a well-documented union "victory".

Calina

markpb wrote: »

I don't know why you find that so hard to believe. An Post, Eircom, the HSE and other semi-states and former semi-states all have RBUs where staff that are no longer required but are protected by the unions are paid to clock in, do nothing and clock out every day until retirement. It's not exactly a secret, nor is it a conspiracy - it's a well-documented union "victory".

If it's that well documented, I dare say you'll be able to provide documentary proof of it then.

Muahahaha

Worked in An Post a few years back myself and the 'Rubber Room' in the GPO is the stuff of legend, managers getting paid up to €100k pa and sitting around doing nothing.

AN POST’S “rubber room” symbolises all that is dishonest and wrong about our public service and semi-state companies.

The “rubber room” is where managers who are “surplus” to requirements are deployed. Hidden away might be a better description. It is so called, a helpful union representative tells us, because “people were banging their heads off the walls because they were doing nothing”.

An An Post manager, a “rubber room” incumbent, has been awarded a bonus of €11,000 on top of his €95,000 salary despite doing little or nothing but marking time until he collected a bomb-proof, better-than-inflation pension.

Remember, this is just one semi-state, just one office in one city. It is hard not to believe that every semi-state and every government department does not have a “rubber room” or at least a rubber-padded corner in some of its offices around the country. This is the kind of waste, though a stronger word is equally applicable, that makes these organisations so susceptible to criticism. This is the kind of waste that so enrages people trying to run a business, or private sector employees paying tax to subsidise this kind of farce.]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/an-posts-rubber-room-an-abuse-of-privilege-80125.html

Not sure about other sectors but I did hear a year back from a former colleague there that the Rubber Room still exists

monument

Not only is the union stuff off topic, but the topic that spawned the union stuff is also off topic, I may look at deleting posts and/or starting a new thread.

Keep on topic -- crazy union deals and 24 hour bus running is not on-topic.

Any issues please use PM -- do not reply to this post or any off-topic post.

-- moderator

Barc66

We need Metro North and Dart Underground. We need both and we need both now. It makes sense to do this now, the economy is back on its feet, population expected to bulge in north dublin and docklands, and surely we can free up cash now that we have a world class motorway network and tax revenues growing at close to 10% year on year.

The benefits will be enormous. 8 minutes from Docklands to Heuston. Think of the knock-on development we'll see in Heuston, Christchurch, inchicore area. Docklands style high density development can be extended further east. Businesses and visitors will benefit from speedy access to the city. Reduced traffic congestion, much easier to live and work in the city centre as new apartment complexes become viable and sought after along the underground line. Swords and much of north dublin opened up for development. Similar effect to Crossrail in London. I saw the cost benefit projections are a return of 2.5 euro for every euro spent. I think it will be even higher. Its a total no brainer, can we just get on with it never mind the cost, this is about benefits of the next 100 years, not this years budget.

cgcsb

Agreed, the full cost doesn't even have to be paid this year, or next even. All we need this year is some getting started money, if it means some potholes in ballygobackwards don't get filled by December then so be it.

Idbatterim

nail on the head barc, send that to Pascal, honestly! This short term vision is beyond belief at this stage, we have lived through and still are the effects of the do nothing option! Here we are again and it seems the same mistakes, that you would thought we learned from post boom, are here again, fortunately the economy is doing well again. I have said it before and said it again, they dont act here until they are forced to, backs to the wall, the sooner we reach that point, the better!

newacc2015

Barc66 wrote: »

We need Metro North and Dart Underground. We need both and we need both now. It makes sense to do this now, the economy is back on its feet, population expected to bulge in north dublin and docklands, and surely we can free up cash now that we have a world class motorway network and tax revenues growing at close to 10% year on year.

The benefits will be enormous. 8 minutes from Docklands to Heuston. Think of the knock-on development we'll see in Heuston, Christchurch, inchicore area. Docklands style high density development can be extended further east. Businesses and visitors will benefit from speedy access to the city. Reduced traffic congestion, much easier to live and work in the city centre as new apartment complexes become viable and sought after along the underground line. Swords and much of north dublin opened up for development. Similar effect to Crossrail in London. I saw the cost benefit projections are a return of 2.5 euro for every euro spent. I think it will be even higher. Its a total no brainer, can we just get on with it never mind the cost, this is about benefits of the next 100 years, not this years budget.

Regardless of tax take, economic growth etc. Borrowing money is just so cheap for the Government now. Not even during boom with zero risk of default,were we getting to borrow money so cheap. Its starting to get more expensive though

The Government can borrow for 10 years at 1.31%. Thats basically free money, when we see inflation in a few years. We could build a ton of these projects on long term bonds and interest will be marginal for the next few decades. While the benefits will be huge. We will never have this opportunity to borrow money so cheap again. We might as well take it

Barc66

@ newacc2015

I dont think we even need to borrow. Economic growth is projected to be 4-5% for the next 5 years. Lets assume tax revenues increase at the same rate. That implies annual tax take will increase from about €50bn per year to about €60bn in 5 years, leaving an extra €10bn per year to play with. These two projects cost what, say €6bn? Assume half comes from private sector, thats €3bn. But crucially this would be spread out over 10 years of construction, thats about €300m per year in increased government spending required. Easily affordable from day to day revenue if those growth projections are anywhere near right.

Barc66

Idbatterim wrote: »

nail on the head barc, send that to Pascal, honestly! This short term vision is beyond belief at this stage, we have lived through and still are the effects of the do nothing option! Here we are again and it seems the same mistakes, that you would thought we learned from post boom, are here again, fortunately the economy is doing well again. I have said it before and said it again, they dont act here until they are forced to, backs to the wall, the sooner we reach that point, the better!

Whats Pascal's email address or contact information? Seriously, i'd like to make a case to him.

cgcsb

TD for Dublin Central & Minister for Transport, Tourism & Sport
Phone: 01 618 3689
Email: paschal.donohoe@oireachtas.ie

Muahahaha

Barc66 wrote: »

Whats Pascal's email address or contact information? Seriously, i'd like to make a case to him.

Let us know how you get on- I sent him an email a couple of weeks back on this and am still awaiting response. Its bloody nuts not to proceed with DU and MN asap. This reminds me of when the m50 was a car park due to over capacity and the toll barriers and the powers that be were deliberating for years on whether or not to upgrade it to 3 lanes and go barrier free. People were up in arms about the disruption and the expected costs but eventually the straw that broke the camels was a report that said not upgrading it would bring the entire city to a standstill within a few years. So it got done but only at the last minute when it became apparent to politicians that not doing it would end up in disaster. We should be learning from those lessons now with DU and MN, not repeating them all over again.

Van.Bosch

Muahahaha wrote: »

Let us know how you get on- I sent him an email a couple of weeks back on this and am still awaiting response. Its bloody nuts not to proceed with DU and MN asap. This reminds me of when the m50 was a car park due to over capacity and the toll barriers and the powers that be were deliberating for years on whether or not to upgrade it to 3 lanes and go barrier free. People were up in arms about the disruption and the expected costs but eventually the straw that broke the camels was a report that said not upgrading it would bring the entire city to a standstill within a few years. So it got done but only at the last minute when it became apparent to politicians that not doing it would end up in disaster. We should be learning from those lessons now with DU and MN, not repeating them all over again.

I got a response today. Recommendation has been made and will be included in capital plan next month.

Edit: NTA recommendation has been made to dept.

Barc66

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I got a response today. Recommendation has been made and will be included in capital plan next month.

Edit: NTA recommendation has been made to dept.

But you dont know what the recommendation is from the NTA to the dept?

I have sent some of my best stuff in an email to Paschal, but may be too late in that case!

Lenton Lane

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I got a response today. Recommendation has been made and will be included in capital plan next month.

Edit: NTA recommendation has been made to dept.

Do you know what the recommendation is?

Van.Bosch

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Do you know what the recommendation is?

Apologies, my post was a bit unclear, no idea what it is...

A number of large public transport projects for the GDA are currently under review. The Fingal/North Dublin Transport Study is examining all existing proposals (heavy rail, metro, Luas extensions) as well as other options for a rail-based transport solution to meet the area's needs in the long term. The NTA has recently submitted its recommendations in relation to the Study. I am currently reviewing all documentation in relation to the reviews, in conjunction with other analyses being undertaken, including the updating of the business case for the DART Underground and the output from the NTA's draft Transport Strategy for the GDA. A decision regarding public transport investment priorities in the GDA, including the DART Underground Project, will be made as part of the Government’s new Capital Plan which is currently in preparation and which is expected to be announced during September.

cgcsb

seems pretty positive for DART. I note the BRT options didn't get a mention there, probably dismissed off hand.

syklops

Barc66 wrote: »

@ newacc2015

I dont think we even need to borrow. Economic growth is projected to be 4-5% for the next 5 years. Lets assume tax revenues increase at the same rate. That implies annual tax take will increase from about €50bn per year to about €60bn in 5 years, leaving an extra €10bn per year to play with. These two projects cost what, say €6bn? Assume half comes from private sector, thats €3bn. But crucially this would be spread out over 10 years of construction, thats about €300m per year in increased government spending required. Easily affordable from day to day revenue if those growth projections are anywhere near right.

As Newacc2015 said, current interest rates make it practically free money. Heres a simple analogy. You have 1000 euro in your savings account and you want to do up the kitchen. You mention to your dad your plan, and he says, "Keep your savings, I'll give you 1000, and you can pay me back when you can afford it".

I know what I would do.

Barc66

syklops wrote: »

As Newacc2015 said, current interest rates make it practically free money. Heres a simple analogy. You have 1000 euro in your savings account and you want to do up the kitchen. You mention to your dad your plan, and he says, "Keep your savings, I'll give you 1000, and you can pay me back when you can afford it".

I know what I would do.

I would use my own income from my job to pay for it, why would i want to be indebted to my own parents when theres no need, i earn enough to pay for it outright?

Also its not free money. In a zero inflation environment, borrowing €5bn at 1.5% would still be €75 million per year servicing costs.

And finally, the markets are a lot less forgiving than mum or dad if you ever struggle to pay it back in the future.

Barc66

Muahahaha wrote: »

Let us know how you get on- I sent him an email a couple of weeks back on this and am still awaiting response. Its bloody nuts not to proceed with DU and MN asap. This reminds me of when the m50 was a car park due to over capacity and the toll barriers and the powers that be were deliberating for years on whether or not to upgrade it to 3 lanes and go barrier free. People were up in arms about the disruption and the expected costs but eventually the straw that broke the camels was a report that said not upgrading it would bring the entire city to a standstill within a few years. So it got done but only at the last minute when it became apparent to politicians that not doing it would end up in disaster. We should be learning from those lessons now with DU and MN, not repeating them all over again.

I got the following response, for what its worth:

On behalf of the Minister for Transport, Tourism & Sport, Paschal Donohoe, T.D., I wish to thank you for your email about Metro North & Dart Underground, the contents of which have been noted.


Yours sincerely,

Chris Smith
Private Secretary to Minister Paschal Donohoe

Grandeeod

Barc66 wrote: »

I got the following response, for what its worth:

On behalf of the Minister for Transport, Tourism & Sport, Paschal Donohoe, T.D., I wish to thank you for your email about Metro North & Dart Underground, the contents of which have been noted.


Yours sincerely,

Chris Smith
Private Secretary to Minister Paschal Donohoe

Those responses havent changed since I dealt with them from 2001.:rolleyes:

Barc66

Grandeeod wrote: »

Those responses havent changed since I dealt with them from 2001.:rolleyes:

Well at least the response ackowledged what the contents of my email were about, which shows it wasn't a totally automated response. But don't worry, I'm not under the impression that i'm influencing public policy much.

LuckyLloyd

Barc66 wrote: »

We need Metro North and Dart Underground. We need both and we need both now. It makes sense to do this now, the economy is back on its feet, population expected to bulge in north dublin and docklands, and surely we can free up cash now that we have a world class motorway network and tax revenues growing at close to 10% year on year.

The benefits will be enormous. 8 minutes from Docklands to Heuston. Think of the knock-on development we'll see in Heuston, Christchurch, inchicore area. Docklands style high density development can be extended further east. Businesses and visitors will benefit from speedy access to the city. Reduced traffic congestion, much easier to live and work in the city centre as new apartment complexes become viable and sought after along the underground line. Swords and much of north dublin opened up for development. Similar effect to Crossrail in London. I saw the cost benefit projections are a return of 2.5 euro for every euro spent. I think it will be even higher. Its a total no brainer, can we just get on with it never mind the cost, this is about benefits of the next 100 years, not this years budget.

If FG bury or delay Dart Underground vote them the **** out!

Grandeeod

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If FG bury or delay Dart Underground vote them the **** out!

When it comes to rail transport, it's cyclical.

Everything FF support, FG try to undo or reinvent. Apart from historical evidence, my own personal experience confirmed this many years ago.

Banjoxed

Grandeeod wrote: »

When it comes to rail transport, it's cyclical.

Everything FF support, FG try to undo or reinvent. Apart from historical evidence, my own personal experience confirmed this many years ago.

Well there's a new option now, Sinn Féin and the far left. Short of getting Hugo Chavez resurrected from the dead and an oilfield around and below Ireland, we'll be lucky to have an ass and cart to travel in by the time they've finished the country.

Grandeeod

Banjoxed wrote: »

Well there's a new option now, Sinn Féin and the far left. Short of getting Hugo Chavez resurrected from the dead and an oilfield around and below Ireland, we'll be lucky to have an ass and cart to travel in by the time they've finished the country.

Irish politics isn't capable of delivering rail transport, so it will be the modern day version of your ass and cart for the foreseeable future.

Banjoxed

Grandeeod wrote: »

Irish politics isn't capable of delivering rail transport, so it will be the modern day version of your ass and cart for the foreseeable future.

Irish politics is incapable of monetising rail transport for vested interests. That's the problem.

Calina

What saddens me most about this discussion is that we focus on individual routes and the arguments and debates take part on the basis of individual routes, like, on this case, north inner city to airport.

I'm assuming there is a plan in place for a coherent transport system for the city as a whole, and that we're not, per se, engaging in a doing nothing until our backs are against the wall on a route by route basis...

Presumably there's a widerscale plan with some planning for joined up thinking, fitting into urban planning for the city as a whole, right?

Grandeeod

Calina wrote: »

I'm assuming there is a plan in place for a coherent transport system for the city as a whole, and that we're not, per se, engaging in a doing nothing until our backs are against the wall on a route by route basis...

Presumably there's a widerscale plan with some planning for joined up thinking, fitting into urban planning for the city as a whole, right?

Nope.

sigmundv

Calina wrote:

Presumably there's a widerscale plan with some planning for joined up thinking, fitting into urban planning for the city as a whole, right?

You know this is Ireland, right?

Muahahaha

I saw a headline on one of the Sunday papers about FG lining up a €4.5bn investment in roads and a luas to the airport.