Angelus Bells and the 6.01

Vic_08

faceman wrote: »

Why though? I'm not asking from a religious perspective. Just a general question.

Because it is giving preferential status to a specific group based on their religion, it is discriminatory. How is that a difficult concept to understand?

murpho999

deadybai wrote: »

Im not religious but the Angleus is a part of tradition. We are so used to turning our back on our history we will be left with no identity. People say that its disrespectful to other religious groups in this country. So you mean to tell me that if you were to visit a Muslim country that you would be offended if you had to follow their traditions?

You can still be a Catholic and disagree at what the Catholic church has done in the past. Doesn't mean you have to turn your back on the religion as a whole.

A lot of people particularly in rural Ireland would be greatly upset if the Angleus was removed. Removing it would upset a majority of people in order to keep a very small minority happy.

Its an Irish tradition like it or not.

We are obsessed as a nation of what other people think of us. When really no one cares. I seen a thread a few weeks ago mocking the 1916 leaders because the rising was a failure. The first comment someone wrote underneath was "Only in Ireland". I think that comment applies to removing the Angelus too.

Hold on The Angelus is no more part of our identity as the call to prayer is to Muslim countries.

They are both tied to the religions they represent not countries.

Also, RTE assuming that The Angelus is a tradition or way of life for most Irish people is wrong in my opinion.

Vic_08

Vic_08 wrote: »

Because it is giving preferential status to a specific group based on their religion, it is discriminatory. How is that a difficult concept to understand?

so how do you explain those of us who are non catholics who prefer it to stay?

i remember a few years ago on boards even the mod of the islamic forum wanted it to stay! This was after they stopped displaying religious iconography during the broadcast, which was a wise choice I think. It's now secular if you want to view it as such.

Just take deep breaths and enjoy the moment's sanctuary before the onslaught of terrible news at 6.01

Dan_Solo

catallus wrote: »

“And I — my head oppressed by horror — said:
"Master, what is it that I hear? Who are
those people so defeated by their pain?"

And he to me: "This miserable way
is taken by the sorry souls of those
who lived without disgrace and without praise.

They now commingle with the coward angels,
the company of those who were not rebels
nor faithful to their God, but stood apart.

The heavens, that their beauty not be lessened,
have cast them out, nor will deep Hell receive them —
even the wicked cannot glory in them.”
― Dante Alighieri, Inferno

Dante on the shrooms again now is he.

extra gravy

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Just take deep breaths and enjoy the moment's sanctuary before the onslaught of terrible news at 6.01

Enjoy the sound of religious bells before hearing about the terrible news of today's atrocities which were committed in the name of religion? The irony.

Dan_Solo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

so how do you explain those of us who are non catholics who prefer it to stay?

Because you haven't understood or bothered to try to understand the arguments against it?
It's religion. It has a freebie on state TV. Therefore no thanks.

VinLieger

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

so how do you explain those of us who are non catholics who prefer it to stay?

i remember a few years ago on boards even the mod of the islamic forum wanted it to stay! This was after they stopped displaying religious iconography during the broadcast, which was a wise choice I think. It's now secular if you want to view it as such.

Just take deep breaths and enjoy the moment's sanctuary before the onslaught of terrible news at 6.01

Its a state funded religious broadcast paid for by tax payers a lot of whom are not of that religion, whatever your ideas about tradition in principle its just wrong and needs to go.

Vic_08

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

so how do you explain those of us who are non catholics who prefer it to stay?

I am not your psychiatrist I have no interest in analyzing your issues.

VinLieger

VinLieger wrote: »

Its a state funded religious broadcast paid for by tax payers a lot of whom are not of that religion, whatever your ideas about tradition in principle its just wrong and needs to go.

More than 80% of the population are catholic according to the official census so they are merely cratering the the population. The angelus should never be taken off RTE. If you not happy to live in a country which holds the catholic faith as an important part of society and important in schools and in everyday life then leave.

Dan_Solo

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

More than 80% of the population are catholic according to the official census so they are merely cratering the the population. The angelus should never be taken off RTE. If you not happy to live in a country which holds the catholic faith as an important part of society and important in schools and in everyday life then leave.

If only catholics were "cratered"...
Anyway, what country is this now where the majority of the population think Catholicism is "important in schools and in everyday"? I don't get the whiff off the Nazarene from one Xmas mass to the next and neither does anybody I know except grannies.

extra gravy

extra gravy wrote: »

Enjoy the sound of religious bells before hearing about the terrible news of today's atrocities which were committed in the name of religion? The irony.

Yes a tiny amount of religious people people kill for religion. People also kill for love: ban heart-shaped chocolates. People kill for political ideology: political organising must go! People kill for money: lets go back to bartering corn. People kill for corn :eek::eek::eek:

What you've just said does not resemble irony. It resembles a bad argument.

VinLieger wrote: »

Its a state funded religious broadcast paid for by tax payers a lot of whom are not of that religion, whatever your ideas about tradition in principle its just wrong and needs to go.

What do you mean my ideas of tradition in principle?

It's nothing to do with tradition or principles. I find it meditative. A rare space.

Vic_08 wrote: »

I am not your psychiatrist I have no interest in analyzing your issues.

Or answering the question...

I'll leave you with the opinions of senator Norris
http://www.senatordavidnorris.ie/blogger/2008/11/statements-on-broadcasting-standards.html

We all have little sensitivities, but I do not think broadcasting can be tailored to them. However, I say "Hear, hear" to Senator Ó Murchú's comments about the Angelus.

I was one of those Church of Ireland people who objected strongly to being made a cat's paw of by disaffected Catholics who wanted to use us as a ruse to get rid of the Angelus.

I like things that are distinctive about this country and this culture. The Angelus is part of that and I respect it. If one is a believer one can stop and say a few prayers. If one is not, it is only a couple of minutes before the news. People can go to the lavatory or put on the kettle for cup of tea. It can be regarded simply as a practical sos, as we call it in the Oireachtas.

lizzyman

I'm a hardline atheist but in a weird way I like the Angelus at 6pm. Not in any religious or spiritual sense but it was a nice way of seeing what other (albeit fictional) people around the country were doing at that moment in time. Haven't seen it in years though.

VinLieger

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

More than 80% of the population are catholic according to the official census so they are merely cratering the the population. The angelus should never be taken off RTE. If you not happy to live in a country which holds the catholic faith as an important part of society and important in schools and in everyday life then leave.

80% are catholic? Then why are churches reporting weekly attendance rates of less than 20%. Why did 62% choose to ignore church teachings and vote for SSM?

The Census question is so incredibly weighted its not even funny. The vast majority of those who ticked it are cultural catholics and you well know it so including them within the 80% is disingenuous.

hynesie08

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

More than 80% of the population are catholic according to the official census so they are merely cratering the the population. The angelus should never be taken off RTE. If you not happy to live in a country which holds the catholic faith as an important part of society and important in schools and in everyday life then leave.

If you changed Ireland to Syria and Catholicism to Muslim, you'd probably be describing a statement like that as barbaric.

Very Christian attitude of you, not hypocritical at all.

TwoShedsJackson

Over 80% of the population are supposedly 'Catholic' thanks to their mammies filling out the form for them.

nox, if you had to tithe 10% of your income to the Church, in order to be recognised as religious, what with your faith and the Catholic faith in general being so important, would you do it?

hatrickpatrick

In order to achieve full separation of church and state, the state broadcaster should not be officially endorsing any particular religion.

I never had a problem with this when I was younger, until recent times following the various church scandals. I now regard any intertwining between the state and religion as inherently toxic - and I say that as a Christian.

Dan_Solo

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

More than 80% of the population are catholic according to the official census

Less than a third of them go to mass so they aren't catholic at all according to the Vatican.
But what would they know?

PopePalpatine

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

More than 80% of the population are catholic according to the official census so they are merely cratering the the population. The angelus should never be taken off RTE. If you not happy to live in a country which holds the catholic faith as an important part of society and important in schools and in everyday life then leave.

And yet we voted in marriage equality. Maybe you should heed your own advice.

Daith

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yes a tiny amount of religious people people kill for religion.

Nah more cardinals covering up for pedophiles in order to save the Churches "good name".

Reflect on that.

Rough Sleeper

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

More than 80% of the population are catholic according to the official census so they are merely cratering the the population. The angelus should never be taken off RTE. If you not happy to live in a country which holds the catholic faith as an important part of society and important in schools and in everyday life then leave.

Or they could wait around till it fades away into just another minor religion. It'll be a fair few years till that happens but the Church undeniably in decline and there's no way that trend is getting reversed. When it loses its grip, perhaps you can leave for the Philippines or Africa if that suits you better.

Tiddlypeeps

faceman wrote: »

Rubbish. Your previous post makes sweeping statements without saying why you have that view.

I must be going crazy, I'm not sure how the quote below could be even remotely unclear.

A tax funded state body advertising for free on behalf of a religious organisation is just not acceptable, and is in fact insulting.

RTE is tax funded. It is providing advertising for free on behalf of a religious organisation. It is not offering to do so on behalf of any other religious organisation. It is giving preferential treatment to a religious organisation. As has been stated ad nauseam through out the thread this is unconstitutional.

Is that clearer? Do you disagree with any of the above statements?

faceman wrote: »

what is your issue with it being religious?

Why should the church pay for it, if it is to be a religious slot?

Why is it insulting?

There is no issue with RTE airing religious content. The issue is when they give preferential treatment to an individual religion. Using tax payers money to publicly air twice daily a call to prayer for one particular religion while denying that privilege to all other religions is unconstitutional. It is insulting because I am paying for it

faceman wrote: »

Clearly you do give "a toss" that's it's played on TV.

Well you see if you leave out the very crucial second half of that sentence then it would indeed seem like I'm saying I don't care when I do.... "as long as the church are paying the going rate for that prime time advertising slot", a pretty crucial part of that sentence won't you agree?

Since you seem to need clarity on everything I say, what I mean here is that it's not the act of playing the angelus on TV that is offensive. It is the preferential treatment the catholic church are receiving from a state funded body. I'm really not sure how much clearer I can make that.

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't get the whiff off the Nazarene from one Xmas mass to the next and neither does anybody I know except grannies.

I'm only 30 and go to mass every week as do lots of people I know my age and younger and I see lots of people in the 25 to 40 age bracket at mass also.

Its far from the old age meet up that some appear to think, maybe you should go and check it out.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

nox, if you had to tithe 10% of your income to the Church, in order to be recognised as religious, what with your faith and the Catholic faith in general being so important, would you do it?

The German system is ridiculous. I put my dues in the basket every week no need for an extortionate system like Germany which is basically geared to stop people being religious by unfairly taxing them in order from them to practice their religion.

Pherekydes

Multiple choice poll. Excellent.

Rough Sleeper

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

I'm only 30 and go to mass every week as do lots of people I know my age and younger and I see lots of people in the 25 to 40 age bracket at mass also.

Its far from the old age meet up that some appear to think, maybe you should go and check it out.

If you go to mass in Dublin it's 50% OAPs and 50% Filipinos and people from the Indian subcontinent. Young Irish people in the capital don't go to mass any more than they go to bingo or dinner dances. It's not a thing.

Daith

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

If you go to mass in Dublin it's 50% OAPs and 50% Filipinos and people from the Indian subcontinent. Young Irish people in the capital don't go to mass any more than they go to bingo or dinner dances. It's not a thing.

It's all lip service but because they're marked as Catholic on a census people still think we live in a Catholic country.

TwoShedsJackson

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

I'm only 30 and go to mass every week as do lots of people I know my age and younger and I see lots of people in the 25 to 40 age bracket at mass also.

Its far from the old age meet up that some appear to think, maybe you should go and check it out.



The German system is ridiculous. I put my dues in the basket every week no need for an extortionate system like Germany which is basically geared to stop people being religious by unfairly taxing them in order from them to practice their religion.

So you're saying that despite being a Catholic, the saving of your eternal soul and ensuring a life in a hereafter, which is a paradise, is not worthing spending 10% of your income in this world, whilst here?

Doesn't sound very committed to me at all, really. In much the same way that if others had to put their money where their beliefs are, then adherence to this sort of nonsense would drop off to the levels it should be, where 15-20% of the population are actually religious in a meaningful (to them) way.

Also, as mentioned before, your anecdotes of seeing people younger than 80 at Mass don't count as evidence of any revival in the Catholic Church.

Vic_08

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Or answering the question...

It wasn't a question, more a stupid straw man argument.

If a bunch of slaves had been found who were perfectly happy being slaves would that have meant slavery shouldn't have been abolished? No of course it wouldn't, discriminatory is discriminatory whether or not the people being discriminated against agree to it or not.

Over and above that your "question" is offensive as it implies that just because YOU are not bothered then the views of those who are ought to be ignored.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'll leave you with the opinions of senator Norris

He is entitled to his opinion as much as anyone else and although I don't agree with it I can see where he is coming from in terms of cultural traditions. Get a commercial broadcaster to put it on or get the catholic church (or pay for it yourself if it means so much to you) to fund it at commercial advertising rates in an advertising slot and labelled as such and I have no objection. BUT an overtly sectarian religious service should not be presented in such a symbolic spot on the national broadcaster paid for by every licence-fee paying citizen.

I will say it again let me opt-out of paying the licence fee and you can have the cardinal present the six-one from Knock for all I care. In fact there is at least one 24-hour Catholic channel on satellite TV, replace RTE ONE with that if you like just stop forcing non-catholics who object to religious discrimination from being forced by law to fund it and have at it.

Dan_Solo

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

I'm only 30 and go to mass every week as do lots of people I know my age and younger and I see lots of people in the 25 to 40 age bracket at mass also.

Nice anecdote. Those darned facts tell the opposite story though. Maybe your god can change reality so religious observance isn't a dead duck?

Zara Unimportant Newspaper wrote: »

Its far from the old age meet up that some appear to think, maybe you should go and check it out.

I'd rather go to a Harry Potter fanclub meeting. It'd be more believable stuff. Probably better attended too.

Muckracker

I like the Angelus and hope its never dropped in the name of 'progress'.

Dan_Solo

Muckracker wrote: »

I like the Angelus and hope its never dropped in the name of 'progress'.

Is 'progress' the same as regular old progress? The quotes make it ironic so removing bronze age mythology from state broadcasting is now not progress, is that it?

Muckracker

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Is 'progress' the same as regular old progress? The quotes make it ironic so removing bronze age mythology from state broadcasting is now not progress, is that it?

I have no idea what you're talking about. However if the Angelus upsets you, you can always just turn it off.

Merces

Yes because the Catholic to Protestant ratio in Northern Ireland is almost equal and if the demographics continue with this trend a united Ireland is highly likely. Having the angelus on the state t.v. would not be good for the reintergration process.

Dan_Solo

Muckracker wrote: »

I have no idea what you're talking about. However if the Angelus upsets you, you can always just turn it off.

Seeing as you appear to have no idea what putting the word progress in inverted commas signifies in your own post, it's not that surprising you can't understand mine
Now, can you tell me how I can avoid paying for this Angelus that I have turned off?

VinLieger

Muckracker wrote: »

I have no idea what you're talking about. However if the Angelus upsets you, you can always just turn it off.

Can I stop paying for it though?

Vic_08

Vic_08 wrote: »

I can see where he is coming from in terms of cultural traditions. Get a commercial broadcaster to put it on or get the catholic church (or pay for it yourself if it means so much to you) to fund it at commercial advertising rates in an advertising slot and labelled as such and I have no objection. BUT an overtly sectarian religious service should not be presented in such a symbolic spot on the national broadcaster.

Stop calling it sectarian if no other religious groups are criticising it. I agree with Senator Norris that it is actually more offensive for disaffected Catholics to hijack other religions and getting offended vicariously.

paid for by every licence-fee paying citizen.

I will say it again let me opt-out of paying the licence fee

How much does it cost?

Dan_Solo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

How much does it cost?

More than zero. Therefore it's a money that should not be spent on it as well as time that should not be given.

Vic_08

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Stop calling it sectarian if no other religious groups are criticising it. I agree with Senator Norris that it is actually more offensive for disaffected Catholics to hijack other religions and getting offended vicariously.

How much does it cost?

We are criticising it.
It is discriminatory.
Stop denying it.

I am not a disaffected Catholic but they have as much a right to their religious and political views and a right not to be discriminated against as anyone else.

Licence fee is €160.

faceman

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why should religious propaganda be allowed free airtime on a state broadcaster? Because it's not the state's job to promote religions?

Do you really feel that its religious propaganda, current name aside? If the name changes would you still feel the same?

Vic_08 wrote: »

Because it is giving preferential status to a specific group based on their religion, it is discriminatory. How is that a difficult concept to understand?

Personally I don't see it as religious, bar the name, as I have already said. However taking your point, the census, much to my amazement, shows Ireland as a overwhelming Catholic country. Do you not think that were it a religious programming slot, that it is catering to the religious majority of the country?

If the church were paying for the slot, would that be ok?

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Since you seem to need clarity on everything I say, what I mean here is that it's not the act of playing the angelus on TV that is offensive. It is the preferential treatment the catholic church are receiving from a state funded body. I'm really not sure how much clearer I can make that.

Now its clearer in a more rational way. Thanks for clarifying.

As I asked Vic_08 above, if the church was to pay for it, would that be ok?

Muckracker

Thanks for funding part of my Catholic heritage boys!

Vic_08

Vic_08 wrote: »

We are criticising it.
It is discriminatory.

You are trying to whip up offence on behalf of other religions where it does not exist.

Licence fee is €160.

No, I asked you how much the angelus costs. You are complaining about the cost of it. How much?

Dan_Solo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, I asked you how much the angelus costs. You are complaining about the cost of it. How much?

Unless you're saying it costs nothing at all, what's your point, if any?

Tiddlypeeps

faceman wrote: »

As I asked Vic_08 above, if the church was to pay for it, would that be ok?

As I've stated repeatedly, including in the post you quoted, I would have no problem with it whatsoever if they paid the going rate for prime time advertising.

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Unless you're saying it costs nothing at all, what's your point, if any?

That the cost is negligible. Probably about one-thousandth of a cent.

If any sufficiently put-upon moaner can show me the cost of the angelus to him o her, I will personally compensate them for it.

Vic_08

faceman wrote: »

Personally I don't see it as religious, bar the name, as I have already said.

Then you are simply ignorant of it's meaning. It is the ringing of the bells on a catholic church, a call to prayer. It is similar to the Islamic Adhan that is sounded from Mosques in islamic countries and it's purpose is both as a call to prayer for believers and a literal loud symbol to non-believers of the status of the church.

faceman wrote: »

However taking your point, the census, much to my amazement, shows Ireland as a overwhelming Catholic country. Do you not think that were it a religious programming slot, that it is catering to the religious majority of the country?

Do you believe it is morally or legally acceptable to discriminate against people because they belong to a minority?

faceman wrote: »

If the church were paying for the slot, would that be ok?

I already said so, as long as it in an advertisement slot. I have no interest in denying people their religious freedoms as long as they don't interfere with anyone else's freedoms, I have a big problem with state sponsored religious sectarianism.

The Adversary

I think they should replace it with a 1 minute video of a different priest everyday giving a grovelling apology for all the abuses the Catholic Church has committed in the country.

Vic_08

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You are trying to whip up offence on behalf of other religions where it does not exist.

It offends ME and my beliefs.

I do not want state sponsored propaganda of a religion I do not belong to.

Is that clear enough for you.

Please point to where I have tried to whip up anything on behalf of any religion.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, I asked you how much the angelus costs. You are complaining about the cost of it. How much?

I do not know or care. I do not wish to pay for a state broadcaster that promotes one religion discriminating against all other beliefs. Even if it was free to produce I would still object as the state should not be engaging in religious discrimination.

If any religious organisation wishes to promote itself by paying for advertising space then they are free to do so like any other organisation or individual as long as they keep within the defined standards.

Tiddlypeeps

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That the cost is negligible. Probably about one-thousandth of a cent.

If any sufficiently put-upon moaner can show me the cost of the angelus to him o her, I will personally compensate them for it.

How much does the advertising slot at 5:59 on RTE typically net? It's just before the news so I would imagine it's one of the most sought after slots. I can't find any solid numbers but I'm guess it's easily in the 4 digits.

The Adversary

The Adversary wrote: »

I think they should replace it with a 1 minute video of a different priest everyday giving a grovelling apology for all the abuses the Catholic Church has committed in the country.

Idiotic post.

Good man blame the vast majority of good priests for the tiny tiny minority of those that committed abuse.

Next you will be calling for all parents to apologise for the abuse carried out by a tiny minority of parents.

Daith

The Adversary wrote: »

I think they should replace it with a 1 minute video of a different priest everyday giving a grovelling apology for all the abuses the Catholic Church has committed in the country.

TBH, I've more from the Catholic Church about same sex relationships than I've ever heard them talk about their own failings.

Maybe they skip the Angelus too and don't reflect?

circadian

Ireland is supposed to be a secular state, so why is the national broadcaster showing a call for prayer every day?

It's an outdated practice, it doesn't offend me but it is certainly a remnant of a time gone by and has no place in a truley secular state.