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Union Selling out the NQT's (or not!) Thread
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23-06-2015 12:00am#1Just split these posts from the 'waiting for the call thread'. Hope you don't mind, but I suppose no harm in having this debate again as it's come up from time to time in other threads too. Bare in mind it can be an emotive issue so debate the points made and avoid the 'ad hominem'.
Mod:That's largely because you now don't get allowances for additional qualifications. Like every other teacher who started before 2011 I started at level 3 on this one (€33,041) but I also received the allowances from this one. Inspired by the Tory culture of the English system, the Irish government decided that post 2012 teachers start at Level 1, €30,702, but have no entitlement to allowances.
With all these "reforms", it seems to be forgotten by many that the qualifications allowances were merely "suspended" in February 2012: "The suspension will stand until the completion of a review by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform."
Time to start lobbying to end this "suspension", I suggest.
It absolutely pains me that because I graduated one year later I don't get any allowances. I have a 1H B.A. and a Master's in my subject area and it really galls me that neither of these is recognised when others' are.
How would I even go about lobbying? The unions don't seem to be interested in standing up for the NQTs.3
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It absolutely pains me that because I graduated one year later I don't get any allowances. I have a 1H B.A. and a Master's in my subject area and it really galls me that neither of these is recognised when others' are.
How would I even go about lobbying? The unions don't seem to be interested in standing up for the NQTs.
I'd agree that NQT's are further down on the priority list..but you could also argue that NQT's don't seem to be interested in lobbying or even joining their union!0 -
I'd agree that NQT's are further down on the priority list..but you could also argue that NQT's don't seem to be interested in lobbying or even joining their union!
Vicious circle really. NQTs can't get stable jobs so why would they bothered about extra pay when they can't get any pay.0 -
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A lot of us don't join because the unions aren't backing us. What's the point?
A unions purpose is to fight for its members interests. That's its sole purpose. It's not there to fight for people who are not members. If you are not a member you can't realistically think the union should be fighting for you do you?0 -
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Crazyteacher wrote: »Not that mention not having the money to join because of the lack of work.
If you are doing casual subbing or have a contract for 11 hours or less you can join the ASTI for €49 for the whole year. It goes up then depending on your hours or job status. So it's not incredibly expensive and if you join, you can go to branch meetings and press for your concerns to be addressed.0 -
If you are doing casual subbing or have a contract for 11 hours or less you can join the ASTI for €49 for the whole year. It goes up then depending on your hours or job status. So it's not incredibly expensive and if you join, you can go to branch meetings and press for your concerns to be addressed.
What if you casually sub between a lot of schools a mix or Asti / TUI ? Which do you join? Both?0 -
A unions purpose is to fight for its members interests. That's its sole purpose. It's not there to fight for people who are not members. If you are not a member you can't realistically think the union should be fighting for you do you?
The teaching unions should fight for the interests of all teachers and shouldn't prioritise some over others. They sold us out before we even qualified. Hence we have no interest in joining.
A steward recently tried to persuade a class of NQTS to join and when questioned about whether the union would be doing anything to reinstate allowances for us he said that would never happen and the union wouldn't be fighting for that. Yeah so I'll pay the union to further improve the conditions for all teachers except me and my fellow NQTS? Doesn't make sense.
Unions should fight for equal rights for all members of the profession and should not be selling one group down the river to protect another.
It's common sense that the upcoming members of the profession will be the future members of the union yet we were shafted before we even began our careers. We never had any opportunity to fight for our pay conditions because the unions decided our fate before we qualified; the unions should make no deals for NQTS when they haven't joined yet as equally as you say they should only fight for their members.0 -
I was glad to be rejected from a very recent interview as I didn't want it and I didn't want to mess about with management. I've never been in a position of been offered a job and then continued looking for another. However with the state of some part time contracts at the moment (5 and 6 hours!!), you have to understand why people with bills to pay have to be fussy.
I didnt realise unemployed teachers could be in a Union. I was with ASTI and at the end of my maternity leave contract I contacted them about changing details and continuing my membership. They said that I was unemployed, I wouldn't be paying subs and my membership would be frozen. No mention of the plan sitstill referred to.0 -
The teaching unions should fight for the interests of all teachers and shouldn't prioritise some over others. They sold us out before we even qualified. Hence we have no interest in joining.
A steward recently tried to persuade a class of NQTS to join and when questioned about whether the union would be doing anything to reinstate allowances for us he said that would never happen and the union wouldn't be fighting for that. Yeah so I'll pay the union to further improve the conditions for all teachers except me and my fellow NQTS? Doesn't make sense.
Unions should fight for equal rights for all members of the profession and should not be selling one group down the river to protect another.
It's common sense that the upcoming members of the profession will be the future members of the union yet we were shafted before we even began our careers. We never had any opportunity to fight for our pay conditions because the unions decided our fate before we qualified; the unions should make no deals for NQTS when they haven't joined yet as equally as you say they should only fight for their members.
Yes because I'm only delighted to be paying €300 a year for a union to spend their time fighting for people who couldn't be arsed paying anything is that what you are seriously suggesting? Some people need to get real.
There is no doubting that the different pay scales and changes have effected nqts a lot but nqts seem to be under the impression that they are the first workers ever to have conditions changed.
I can't buy back years that my older colleagues can. My pension, tax etc is different to those who started s few years earlier than me. People have had problems getting jobs for the last ten years it's not some new phenomenon that ye are the only ones effected by. A friend of mine is 9 years out he has just finished a year doing 8 hours a week. Going for numerous interviews every summer for the last 9 years moving for school to school and that's when he was lucky to get something.
I have had my own issues with unions as described here in the past. I don't always agree with them. They were worse than useless in one particular occasion but had I not been a member on that occasion is hardly expect someone from Dublin to come down and fight for me.
I have full sympathy for nqts especially regards to pay. I have greater sympathy for those out for a number of years moving from place to place if lucky on crap hours most of the time but very rarely spoken about.
However I have no sympathy for anyone who won't join the fight. Maybe it's just ignorance of how a union actually works or it's just growing up mollycoddled for the last 20 years that has done nqts in lala land thinking for one second that something they are not part of would stand up for them.
To be honest it's rarely said here but maybe it needs to be said for once0 -
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Yes because I'm only delighted to be paying €300 a year for a union to spend their time fighting for people who couldn't be arsed paying anything is that what you are seriously suggesting? Some people need to get real.
There is no doubting that the different pay scales and changes have effected nqts a lot but nqts seem to be under the impression that they are the first workers ever to have conditions changed.
I can't buy back years that my older colleagues can. My pension, tax etc is different to those who started s few years earlier than me. People have had problems getting jobs for the last ten years it's not some new phenomenon that ye are the only ones effected by. A friend of mine is 9 years out he has just finished a year doing 8 hours a week. Going for numerous interviews every summer for the last 9 years moving for school to school and that's when he was lucky to get something.
I have had my own issues with unions as described here in the past. I don't always agree with them. They were worse than useless in one particular occasion but had I not been a member on that occasion is hardly expect someone from Dublin to come down and fight for me.
I have full sympathy for nqts especially regards to pay. I have greater sympathy for those out for a number of years moving from place to place if lucky on crap hours most of the time but very rarely spoken about.
However I have no sympathy for anyone who won't join the fight. Maybe it's just ignorance of how a union actually works or it's just growing up mollycoddled for the last 20 years that has done nqts in lala land thinking for one second that something they are not part of would stand up for them.
To be honest it's rarely said here but maybe it needs to be said for once
I totally agree with this. People can't expect the unions to fight for them if they don't join.
The pay and jobs situation for NQTs is pretty bad but so is the situation for graduates in most disciplines at the moment.
I first taught in 2006 and am only getting my CID this coming September. It will be for 22 hours and I am thrilled to get it, but know that I am mainly getting it due to the Ward Report circular and that wouldn't have happened if the unions didn't fight for it, due to members lobbying them to do something. I joined the ASTI when I was doing my HDip and remained a member ever since. There were times when I felt disillusioned with them and with teaching in general. I've done summer after summer of applying for jobs, interviews, crappy contracts etc
Bottom line is yes the situation for NQTs is bad but you are more likely to change that if you have the union fighting for you and they won't do that if you don't join.0 -
I totally agree with this. People can't expect the unions to fight for them if they don't join.
The pay and jobs situation for NQTs is pretty bad but so is the situation for graduates in most disciplines at the moment.
I first taught in 2006 and am only getting my CID this coming September. It will be for 22 hours and I am thrilled to get it, but know that I am mainly getting it due to the Ward Report circular and that wouldn't have happened if the unions didn't fight for it, due to members lobbying them to do something. I joined the ASTI when I was doing my HDip and remained a member ever since. There were times when I felt disillusioned with them and with teaching in general. I've done summer after summer of applying for jobs, interviews, crappy contracts etc
Bottom line is yes the situation for NQTs is bad but you are more likely to change that if you have the union fighting for you and they won't do that if you don't join.
Why would NQTs join a union who sold them out for their own benefit?
This isn't about being mollycoddled, this is about pay equality. Why should I be on a different pay scale to a similar worker?0 -
I have full sympathy for nqts especially regards to pay. I have greater sympathy for those out for a number of years moving from place to place if lucky on crap hours most of the time but very rarely spoken about.
However I have no sympathy for anyone who won't join the fight. Maybe it's just ignorance of how a union actually works or it's just growing up mollycoddled for the last 20 years that has done nqts in lala land thinking for one second that something they are not part of would stand up for them.
To be honest it's rarely said here but maybe it needs to be said for once
Membership in both unions has increased. You can be sure most post 2011/2012 teachers and teaching will have joined this year as a result of the strikes. The difference in pay is about 25%. Ironically teachers who are on lesser hours than NQTs are probably getting paid more.
The union acted to protect its members a few years ago and to a large extent it did (very few serving teachers took a 25% reduction). The issue now though is you have a divided union. You have NQTs and others working their asses off doing extra curriculars and extra classes in order to secure employment but then you have snide comments from those the union protected (a small minority granted) who give out then that it is going against the union and we shouldnt be further eroding our conditions which has already been the case for new teachers. I'm all for the union but it is a very complex situation rather than it being about NQTs whinging.0 -
SligoBrewer wrote: »Why would NQTs join a union who sold them out for their own benefit?
This isn't about being mollycoddled, this is about pay equality. Why should I be on a different pay scale to a similar worker?
Because that's what a union is. It's there for its members. We are (the members) the union. Us teachers.
If nqts are convinced the unions did not fight for them in the last few years how does not joining change that fact. The only way to get a union to do something is for the members to push the issue. Away from the ideal world everyone is out to look after themselves. Nqts think older teachers don't care about them. Nqts don't care about older members. That's how the world works. A union will fight for ITS MEMBERS. If every nqt was a union member and all went to the meetings and forced their issues onto the table things would change. Until that point people are only making excuses.
[[/S]Membership in both unions has increased. You can be sure most post 2011/2012 teachers and teaching will have joined this year as a result of the strikes. The difference in pay is about 25%. Ironically teachers who are on lesser hours than NQTs are probably getting paid more.
That's a bit of a generalisation my mate on 9 hours is not on more money than an nqt covering a full 22 hour maternity leave.
The union acted to protect its members a few years ago and to a large extent it did (very few serving teachers took a 25% reduction). The issue now though is you have a divided union. You have NQTs and others working their asses off doing extra curriculars and extra classes in order to secure employment but then you have snide comments from those the union protected (a small minority granted) who give out then that it is going against the union and we shouldnt be further eroding our conditions which has already been the case for new teachers. I'm all for the union but it is a very complex situation rather than it being about NQTs whinging.
Of course the union acted to protect its members who else do you think it is going to protect?
Again the generalisation. In my school this year we took on about 8 new staff due to retirements and extra hours. Only one of those did any extra curricular I kid you not only one. All other extra curricular was done by the older staff the majority by the permanent members of staff.
I agree it's very complex but those older members are the ones that got us all the good conditions we have (or had) through fighting with the unions for the last 30 years. We didn't get the good conditions cause all those nqts 30 years ago sat on their arses complaining without doing anything about it.0 -
Because that's what a union is. It's there for its members. We are (the members) the union. Us teachers.
If nqts are convinced the unions did not fight for them in the last few years how does not joining change that fact. The only way to get a union to do something is for the members to push the issue. Away from the ideal world everyone is out to look after themselves. Nqts think older teachers don't care about them. Nqts don't care about older members. That's how the world works. A union will fight for ITS MEMBERS. If every nqt was a union member and all went to the meetings and forced their issues onto the table things would change. Until that point people are only making excuses.
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Of course the union acted to protect its members who else do you think it is going to protect?
Again the generalisation. In my school this year we took on about 8 new staff due to retirements and extra hours. Only one of those did any extra curricular I kid you not only one. All other extra curricular was done by the older staff the majority by the permanent members of staff.
I agree it's very complex but those older members are the ones that got us all the good conditions we have (or had) through fighting with the unions for the last 30 years. We didn't get the good conditions cause all those nqts 30 years ago sat on their arses complaining without doing anything about it.
I would have thought that a union looks our for the profession as a whole, and that includes its future members. Look at how the nurses' unions stuck up for their future members. Why couldn't the TUI/ASTI have done that?
You can't just sell people down the river and tell them to fight for the rights that you gave away once they become teachers, that's ridiculous. The whole idea of being in a union is that everyone is in it together. We aren't. There's three different pay scales. Three different pension schemes. Three tiers of inequality. Why? Cause those mollycoddled NQTs were sold off.
I'm currently a union member, but will be leaving. I joined because of the strikes for my own self protection in my NQT year but I shouldn't have bothered.0 -
SligoBrewer wrote: »
I'm currently a union member, but will be leaving. I joined because of the strikes for my own self protection in my NQT year but I shouldn't have bothered.
Have you attended union meetings regularly?
Have you raised these issues at union meetings?
Have you lobbied your union reps?
Are you comfortable to go ahead in your career without union protection in relation to future contracts/issues?
Do you have an interest in improving conditions?
As an active union member, I agree that the unions certainly have their faults but some NQTs are really cutting off their nose to spite their face.
We have ALL suffered since the start of the cutbacks and we have all "been sold up the river" in terms of pay and conditions.
Granted, the tiered pay system is probably the worst thing to happen to the profession and I can totally understand the frustrations of NPTs.
It's not fair to say that the unions are "doing nothing".
These issues have been brought up at union level, both locally and nationally, and from the last few meetings I was at, they weren't brought up by NQTs, but those of us who have been "protected" as you put it.
Unions are also fighting for better contracts.
The awful practice of splitting contracts that had creeped in.
All well fighting for pay, but the jobs need to be there for a start!
There are many many teachers on the old pay scale, still working scraps of hours and moving from job to job, year in, year out.
I too am sick hearing NPTs complain about the union doing nothing and making divisive comments about "protected teachers".
It is especially frustrating when you are an active union member, who does raise the issues of NPTs.
There are a lot of teachers lobbying for the reversal of the tiered pay scale.
So be careful where you air your views in a school.
You don't know who is actually fighting for your pay and conditions.0 -
Just split that thread from the 'waiting for the call thread'. Hope you don't mind, but I suppose no harm in having this debate again as it's come up from time to time in other threads too.
Bare in mind it can be an emotive issue so debate the points made and avoid the 'ad hominem'.
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Ok, wow. My head is all over the place.
1. Decisions are made by those who show up. Union membership is pro rata.
2. Some of the comments here by some people who are not in the union are so stupid that physics has no way to quantify them. Give out all you want about an organisation that you are not a menber of, not contributing to and not bothered about all you want. Yet what is the alternative? Not have a union? Wonder what the government would do with a group of people who have so little fight, or even a willingness to fight, in them.
3. When the union are battling about CP hours, S&S, CID contracts, terms and conditions, class size, etc, it is not only union members who benefit.
If the posts on this forum by anti union people are anything to go by then all I can say is, well, maybe I shouldn't say it. Put it like this, you people as individuals will DO NOTHING to ever improve your lot. But I will. Sorry, WE WILL, FOR YOU.0 -
Everything in politics in this society since 2009 indicates there are two types of people: those who believe protest works, and those who believe it doesn't work. Judging by how few protest, the vast majority of the Irish population is in the latter camp.
The evidence, however, clearly shows protest is the only thing which does work - be it the OAPs going mad about the medical card being withdrawn or the water rates stuff. Both resulted in government climbdowns. My point is this: nothing will improve if people sit on the sidelines. Nothing. No government gives something without a fight. It never happens. Never. It was political necessity in the form of political threats (rise in popular support for socialist parties) which brought all the great reforms of the 20th century - social reforms, women's rights, universal healthcare and education. All of them.
The only way NQTs will improve their position is if they start organising, and that usually if not invariably means within a union structure (it's harder to take on the opponent when the army is divided). I don't feel I get value for my €335 (after tax!) fee to my Union. It's massive. I feel my working conditions have been worse than ever this past year in terms of stress. The most important thing for me is the conditions of employment. Nobody gets into teaching for the money; if we were accepted onto the Dip, we had enough to do professional exams for more lucrative careers. It's primarily about conditions and, yes, still a sense of vocation (albeit declining).
In short, I will vote for the person who will prioritise the mess at entry level - by, for instance, using union resources to explore the benefits of a centralised training and recruitment system for Irish teachers. We need to see the pros and cons of a new system like that because it is a matter or urgency for all teachers (even if more senior ones think they're immune from it) that the part-time hours and insecure employment which result in exploitation, nepotism and a wide variety of other discrimination is ended. It's no coincidence that conditions for all teachers have declined since they declined for NQTs. It has a domino effect; cheap exploitable labour at the bottom undermines the worth of all teachers. Even, in reality, pre-2011 teachers have had enormous pay reductions - look at that "Pension Related Deduction" and USC deduction on your payslip (11.3%, to be absolutely precise, of my gross income is diverted to those two new taxes alone). If you're on €50k, that's a huge €5650 extra you're paying per year, leaving aside ordinary PAYE and PRSI. I'm absolutely certain I'd spend that more wisely than anybody in the Department of Education (including that 53-year-old who retired recently on a €114,000 pension per year, and €204,000 lump sum). It is complete arse to claim pre-2011 teachers have avoided pay cuts.
For the above reasons, the priority for unions should be on sorting out, once and for all, the training/recruitment/conditions for people at entry level to the teaching profession. If the foundation of the teaching profession is shaky, as it currently is because of the state policy of creating oversupply of teachers in order to bring the cost of employment down, then the entire profession is in danger. It might say 'teacher' on the 'Occupation' section of forms you fill out, but you'll be more of a childminder/administrator of teenagers in ten years if we don't sort out what's happening at entry level in this profession. Join the union. Make it your union. Any established teacher with a bit of an eye for a pattern can see the sort of job they'll be in in ten years time unless they do their utmost to stop it now - and the really smart teachers know that in ten years time it will probably be too late for them to change career. That's a sobering thought.0 -
SligoBrewer wrote: »I would have thought that a union looks our for the profession as a whole, and that includes its future members.
I'm currently a union member, but will be leaving. I joined because of the strikes for my own self protection in my NQT year but I shouldn't have bothered.
Look at the dunnes strikes recently several different unions involved as well as non union people. Do you think unite were fighting for everyone like hell they were, they were out to protect their own members not the whole world.
So you are telling us that you you are so appalled at "older" union members looking after themselves and not the future teachers (who couldn't be arsed joining by the way) but you admit that you only joined to protect yourself and nothing else. What's the difference? Can you not see the lack of logic in your argument0 -
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gaeilgebeo wrote: »Have you attended union meetings regularly?
Have you raised these issues at union meetings?
Have you lobbied your union reps?
I've lobbied my reps. I don't have the time to go to the compulsory NIPT NQT workshops let alone go to union meetings.gaeilgebeo wrote: »Are you comfortable to go ahead in your career without union protection in relation to future contracts/issues?
Do you have an interest in improving conditions?
It's a risk I've weighed up. As a practical teacher, there's no doubt that the backing that a union can give is pretty good. But why should I be part of a union if it doesn't represent me? Of course I want to improve conditions, who doesn't? But how can I feel comfortable in a union who are more concerned about CPD workshops instead of the young workers who they betrayed?gaeilgebeo wrote: »As an active union member, I agree that the unions certainly have their faults but some NQTs are really cutting off their nose to spite their face.
We have ALL suffered since the start of the cutbacks and we have all "been sold up the river" in terms of pay and conditions.
Granted, the tiered pay system is probably the worst thing to happen to the profession and I can totally understand the frustrations of NPTs.
Then it should be the first thing they should be addressing. Nothing else. Equality is the keyword of 2015, and yet older members don't give a damn about us. Did they/you stand up for us?gaeilgebeo wrote: »It's not fair to say that the unions are "doing nothing".
These issues have been brought up at union level, both locally and nationally, and from the last few meetings I was at, they weren't brought up by NQTs, but those of us who have been "protected" as you put it.
Unions are also fighting for better contracts.
The awful practice of splitting contracts that had creeped in.
All well fighting for pay, but the jobs need to be there for a start!
There are many many teachers on the old pay scale, still working scraps of hours and moving from job to job, year in, year out.
This is also awful and needs to be addressed. How many of my classmates are abroad? We train teacher after teacher and they end up teaching in England/UAE. Is this right? Is this fair?gaeilgebeo wrote: »I too am sick hearing NPTs complain about the union doing nothing and making divisive comments about "protected teachers".
It is especially frustrating when you are an active union member, who does raise the issues of NPTs.
There are a lot of teachers lobbying for the reversal of the tiered pay scale.
So be careful where you air your views in a school.
You don't know who is actually fighting for your pay and conditions.
Thanks. It's nice that not all people are self-serving, because at times it seems to new entrants that teachers only care about themselves and not the weakest members in the profession.0 -
The teaching unions should fight for the interests of all teachers and shouldn't prioritise some over others.
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They fight for all teachers who are members. Are you seriously suggesting that they should fight for non members?
NQT's need to join the union in numbers and fight their corner.
Loss of allowances doesn't just affect NQT's. It also affects many long time teachers who have gone off and done qualifications in their own time and at their own expense, for the good of the job. Most of these are already union members; the allowances loss has not been high on the agenda, there have been far more serious things to worry about.
Maybe if more NQT's joined the union, they could push the issue higher on the agenda?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 25773
'The Union' is the members. 'The Union' is not some group of people who sit in Orwell Road (or Winetavern Street) and think 'Oh let's do something about the NQTs'. They do what they are instructed to by the members. The members instruct them as to what to do by passing motions at Branch meetings.
It's really a very simple process in the TUI to influence Union policy. I have seen special interest groups in my own Branch many times arrive en masse to one Branch meeting, get their motion passed, so that it becomes policy and then never be seen again.
As usual however, it will be left to a few people to do the work while others gain the benefit.0 -
Yes because I'm only delighted to be paying €300 a year for a union to spend their time fighting for people who couldn't be arsed paying anything is that what you are seriously suggesting? Some people need to get real.
There is no doubting that the different pay scales and changes have effected nqts a lot but nqts seem to be under the impression that they are the first workers ever to have conditions changed.
I can't buy back years that my older colleagues can. My pension, tax etc is different to those who started s few years earlier than me. People have had problems getting jobs for the last ten years it's not some new phenomenon that ye are the only ones effected by. A friend of mine is 9 years out he has just finished a year doing 8 hours a week. Going for numerous interviews every summer for the last 9 years moving for school to school and that's when he was lucky to get something.
I have had my own issues with unions as described here in the past. I don't always agree with them. They were worse than useless in one particular occasion but had I not been a member on that occasion is hardly expect someone from Dublin to come down and fight for me.
I have full sympathy for nqts especially regards to pay. I have greater sympathy for those out for a number of years moving from place to place if lucky on crap hours most of the time but very rarely spoken about.
However I have no sympathy for anyone who won't join the fight. Maybe it's just ignorance of how a union actually works or it's just growing up mollycoddled for the last 20 years that has done nqts in lala land thinking for one second that something they are not part of would stand up for them.
To be honest it's rarely said here but maybe it needs to be said for once
Well you seem to be under the impression that NQTs don't suffer any of these issues either. NQTs are also suffering with casualisation of posts. I spent six years in college educating myself to be a teacher and when I arrived into the workforce the majority of my classmates had to emigrate as they couldn't even get interviews here.
I'm sorry I don't understand how you could possibly claim I am molly coddled when my pay was cut by 25% and I will be making a loss of over a quarter of a million euro over my life time. That is actually laughable.
You pay 300 euro a year because you are obviously in full time employment. That makes it a lot easier to pay that 300 seeing as you have a job! If I were on my own contract I would also pay the same money but your interests are the ones being looked after, not mine. How is that fair? I suppose I'd be molly coddled then too.
Your friend being affected by casualisation of contracts is not something unique to him. At least however he is on the old pay scale where he is paid more for those hours despite doing the same work.
It doesn't sound like you have an ounce of sympathy to be quite honest and it sounds like you think that we personally should be negotiating our pay as opposed to the union which did it for us. Again I reiterate; my pay was cut before I even had the opportunity to have my voice heard on the issue and if you think it is fair to sell out new entrants to a profession to protect older members and then turn around and call those newer entrants molly coddled when their pay cuts have allowed your own to be less affected then your idea of equality in teaching is absolutely laughable.0 -
aWell you seem to be under the impression that NQTs don't suffer any of these issues either. NQTs are also suffering with casualisation of posts. I spent six years in college educating myself to be a teacher and when I arrived into the workforce the majority of my classmates had to emigrate as they couldn't even get interviews here.
Let me start by saying please don't put words in my mouth its the one thing on this site that drives me mad, when I say something and someone responds with the complete opposite to what I said.
Where did I say NQTs didn't suffer I said I have full sympathy with them especially with regards to pay.
Again I never said NQTs were not suffering due to the casualisation of the profession I acknowledged that they were but my point was NQTs seem to think they are the only ones suffering about this, there are more people in the profession suffering and suffering for 3-5-10 years because of this it is not a problem unique to NQTs. My point was NQTs in general don't acknowledge this.
Again your last point above do you think this is only a recent problem?? I am teaching 8 years. My class in college changed from having approx 22 people in it every year to having 70 of us. Followed by 70 at least the 3 years after me that I remained in college. There was not some massive amount of jobs appearing on the horizon I have no idea why they did it. 8 years ago approx. 20 of us got jobs (less than a third), many went into other jobs because they couldn't get into education. Many emigrated. This was 8 years ago. This is not a new problem unique to NQTs the last 2 years
I'm sorry I don't understand how you could possibly claim I am molly coddled when my pay was cut by 25% and I will be making a loss of over a quarter of a million euro over my life time. That is actually laughable.
My point about mollycoddling was in relation to those who I have met over the last couple of years that seem to think that just because they went to college they should automatically be handed a full time job. It has never happened that way in teaching, but some people that have had everything handed to them on a plate since they turned 10 then don't get their own way when they hit the real world and can't understand it
You pay 300 euro a year because you are obviously in full time employment. That makes it a lot easier to pay that 300 seeing as you have a job! If I were on my own contract I would also pay the same money but your interests are the ones being looked after, not mine. How is that fair? I suppose I'd be molly coddled then too.
Yes I am in full time employment and i don't apologise for that to anyone. Did you read the post above that referred to not everyone having to pay the full price depending on their circumstances. Just because I am in full time employment don't mean I have loads of money. I have a mortgage which I am paying on my own. Some months I have maybe 50 euro spending money left. Don't presume things about people just because they have a job.
MY INTERESTS ARE THE ONES BEING LOOKED AFTER BECAUSE I AM PAYING MY MEMBERSHIP (not shouting just making the same point that has been made several times but missed)
Your friend being affected by casualisation of contracts is not something unique to him. At least however he is on the old pay scale where he is paid more for those hours despite doing the same work.
No its not unique to him but that was my point to you its not unique to NQTs either despite what a vast majority seem to think.
I am on different conditions to the other subject teacher with me because he has an extra 8 years done than me. My pay is the same but not everything else is. I have said on this site I don't know how many times that the different pay scales is a disgrace but there are several different sets of conditions already in the education sector, again this is not unique to NQTs ( the pay scale is)
It doesn't sound like you have an ounce of sympathy to be quite honest and it sounds like you think that we personally should be negotiating our pay as opposed to the union which did it for us. Again I reiterate; my pay was cut before I even had the opportunity to have my voice heard on the issue and if you think it is fair to sell out new entrants to a profession to protect older members and then turn around and call those newer entrants molly coddled when their pay cuts have allowed your own to be less affected then your idea of equality in teaching is absolutely laughable.
Again can you point out where I said you should be negotiating your own pay or are you just going to continue to make stuff up that I didn't say.
Not sure how much clearer I can make it. I think the union should be negotiating on your behalf provided you are actually a union member If you are not a union member I have no sympathy as you (not you personally anyone NQT or not) are happy to accept the good things that the unions negotiate when it suits but don't want to be part of the real work
Are you under the impression that the older teachers did this on purpose to you or something? We voted no against CP twice before some people gave up the fight and gave in to the demands. I didn't say anything about selling out potential future members for our own gain is fair. I said, and again maybe you need to look up the definition of what a union is because some people here have absolutely no clue, the union fought for its members (lets be honest they were not very successful) which is what the union is there to do0 -
Did unions agree to the pay scale change? I thought it was a budgetary change affecting all public servants, not something contained in any of the agreements.
I disagree completely with the unequal pay scale and I think it's something that should be at the top of the union's agenda. But it's not something members voted in.0 -
Pretty sickening , derisory tone used in several posts in this thread towards NQTs . Look guys the reality is you can go to all the district meetings you want and phone and email your opinions ad nauseum , Pat King and Sheila Nunan ARE the unions . THEY control the unions . Their agenda you can judge based on the last five or six years . Likewise their motives ...?0
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permanent staff -vs- temps
post 2011 -vs- pre 2011 -vs- pre 2004 -vs- retiring staff
full hours -vs- 10 hour CID
management -vs- staff
union members -vs- non-union members
old(er) -vs- young
numerous pay cuts, larger class sizes, teacher detention, erosion of holidays and conditions.... divide and conquer works every time!0 -
permanent staff -vs- temps
post 2011 -vs- pre 2011 -vs- pre 2004 -vs- retiring staff
full hours -vs- 10 hour CID
management -vs- staff
union members -vs- non-union members
old(er) -vs- young
numerous pay cuts, larger class sizes, teacher detention, erosion of holidays and conditions.... divide and conquer works every time!
There's no need for division; people choose it. They refuse to join the union, then complain when the union doesn't do what they want. They are playing right into the hands of those that want to divide and conquer.0 -
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Pretty sickening , derisory tone used in several posts in this thread towards NQTs . Look guys the reality is you can go to all the district meetings you want and phone and email your opinions ad nauseum , Pat King and Sheila Nunan ARE the unions . THEY control the unions . Their agenda you can judge based on the last five or six years . Likewise their motives ...?
That is simply untrue. Union policy is determined by the members, through the annual congress and through the elected members of the executive. These are working teachers who interact every day with their colleagues and are aware of and able to bring their issues to the table. A union head can't act unilaterally; he or she has to act in accordance with Congress and the Executive.
If you think that what has happened over the past five or six years is bad, try to think what it would have been like if we didn't have union officials negotiating for us. I can't even begin to think what our terms and conditions would be now. At the end of the day, the union officials put the propositions to the members, and the members exercised their democratic prerogative.0 -
Well you seem to be under the impression that NQTs don't suffer any of these issues either. NQTs are also suffering with casualisation of posts. I spent six years in college educating myself to be a teacher and when I arrived into the workforce the majority of my classmates had to emigrate as they couldn't even get interviews here.
I'm sorry I don't understand how you could possibly claim I am molly coddled when my pay was cut by 25% and I will be making a loss of over a quarter of a million euro over my life time. That is actually laughable.
You pay 300 euro a year because you are obviously in full time employment. That makes it a lot easier to pay that 300 seeing as you have a job! If I were on my own contract I would also pay the same money but your interests are the ones being looked after, not mine. How is that fair? I suppose I'd be molly coddled then too.
Your friend being affected by casualisation of contracts is not something unique to him. At least however he is on the old pay scale where he is paid more for those hours despite doing the same work.
It doesn't sound like you have an ounce of sympathy to be quite honest and it sounds like you think that we personally should be negotiating our pay as opposed to the union which did it for us. Again I reiterate; my pay was cut before I even had the opportunity to have my voice heard on the issue and if you think it is fair to sell out new entrants to a profession to protect older members and then turn around and call those newer entrants molly coddled when their pay cuts have allowed your own to be less affected then your idea of equality in teaching is absolutely laughable.
Yes, NQT's are suffering from things like casualization, but they are not the only ones. In my workplace, fifty percent of the staff is on casual contracts, and some of them have been teaching for ten years or more. So get over your self pity and open your eyes. We are all in this.
I was in college in the seventies, and when I came out in 1981 I had exactly the same problem as NQT's now. There were no full time jobs; It took me twelve years to get a full time job; and in those twelve years, there were no such things as pro-rata or CID contracts. I had to sign on the dole every Christmas, mid term, Easter and summer, and taught in literally dozens of schools, a day here, a week there. I taught English to students in the summer, I taught night classes, I went back to college at night and added to my range of subjects. In other words, I didn't sit around on my posterior whining, I just got on with it. Oh, and do you know who managed to change things so that people like me could have some kind of security of employment in terms of contracts? The union...
For my part, I have every sympathy for fellow teachers, be they newly qualified or long serving, who are having problems with finding jobs, getting proper contracts, or getting qualifications recognised. I have no sympathy with whingers who are not prepared to do something about their plight; who complain about the union not helping them, but refuse to join, and who seem to think a full time job should jump into their laps because they are qualified teachers.0 -
Yes, NQT's are suffering from things like casualization, but they are not the only ones. In my workplace, fifty percent of the staff is on casual contracts, and some of them have been teaching for ten years or more. So get over your self pity and open your eyes. We are all in this.
I was in college in the seventies, and when I came out in 1981 I had exactly the same problem as NQT's now. There were no full time jobs; It took me twelve years to get a full time job; and in those twelve years, there were no such things as pro-rata or CID contracts. I had to sign on the dole every Christmas, mid term, Easter and summer, and taught in literally dozens of schools, a day here, a week there. I taught English to students in the summer, I taught night classes, I went back to college at night and added to my range of subjects. In other words, I didn't sit around on my posterior whining, I just got on with it. Oh, and do you know who managed to change things so that people like me could have some kind of security of employment in terms of contracts? The union...
For my part, I have every sympathy for fellow teachers, be they newly qualified or long serving, who are having problems with finding jobs, getting proper contracts, or getting qualifications recognised. I have no sympathy with whingers who are not prepared to do something about their plight; who complain about the union not helping them, but refuse to join, and who seem to think a full time job should jump into their laps because they are qualified teachers.
Here, here!0 -
Yes, NQT's are suffering from things like casualization, but they are not the only ones. In my workplace, fifty percent of the staff is on casual contracts, and some of them have been teaching for ten years or more. So get over your self pity and open your eyes. We are all in this.
I was in college in the seventies, and when I came out in 1981 I had exactly the same problem as NQT's now. There were no full time jobs; It took me twelve years to get a full time job; and in those twelve years, there were no such things as pro-rata or CID contracts. I had to sign on the dole every Christmas, mid term, Easter and summer, and taught in literally dozens of schools, a day here, a week there. I taught English to students in the summer, I taught night classes, I went back to college at night and added to my range of subjects. In other words, I didn't sit around on my posterior whining, I just got on with it. Oh, and do you know who managed to change things so that people like me could have some kind of security of employment in terms of contracts? The union...
For my part, I have every sympathy for fellow teachers, be they newly qualified or long serving, who are having problems with finding jobs, getting proper contracts, or getting qualifications recognised. I have no sympathy with whingers who are not prepared to do something about their plight; who complain about the union not helping them, but refuse to join, and who seem to think a full time job should jump into their laps because they are qualified teachers.
And did every teacher have different pay based on age or year of entry? Were you paid significantly less than your colleagues?
Can you point out where I said casualisation was unique to NQTs? Because I didn't. Another poster seemed to think it didn't affect us and I was merely pointing out it did.
Pontificate all you want about the union helping if only we would join - newsflash, many NQTs are in the unions and do lobby and attend meetings. But guess what! The ruling majority i.e. the older staff have no interest in us getting equal pay and the unions aren't doing anything for us regardless.
I have already stated this: a union official told me explicitly that NEVER will we get our allowances back! So WHY would I pay them? They've already shown their hand and proven a complete lack of interest in us.0 -
I was paid significantly less than my colleagues because I was only paid by the hour and got no holiday pay of any kind, unlike most part-time teachers today. That's how it was then. And the union changed it, because people like me got involved in the union and pushed for it.And did every teacher have different pay based on age or year of entry? Were you paid significantly less than your colleagues?
Can you point out where I said casualisation was unique to NQTs? Because I didn't. Another poster seemed to think it didn't affect us and I was merely pointing out it did.
Pontificate all you want about the union helping if only we would join - newsflash, many NQTs are in the unions and do lobby and attend meetings. But guess what! The ruling majority i.e. the older staff have no interest in us getting equal pay and the unions aren't doing anything for us regardless.
I have already stated this: a union official told me explicitly that NEVER will we get our allowances back! So WHY would I pay them? They've already shown their hand and proven a complete lack of interest in us.
The difference in pay scales was something imposed on the unions by government. NQT's are free to do what people like me did, and join the union, and lobby for change.
I didn't say you said casualisation was unique to NQT's. But you make it sound as if it is, by harping on about NQT's, as if they are the only ones suffering.
The union official was right, we will never get the allowances back. That is as annoying to me as to you - I spend several thousand euro of my own money doing a masters, and I'll never get any allowance for it, because I did it just after the cut off point. I just have to suck it up. I am not going to sulk and not bother being in the union because they are things they can do nothing about. I've worked as a union official, and I can tell you that I have seen part time teachers getting back hours which were taken off them, and having other issues sorted for them. I can guarantee that the moment you get some hours given to another teacher, or you are being bullied by another staff member, you'll be hotfooting it to your union rep looking for a membership form...0 -
I think the allowances were a legacy issue (unfortunately).. in the past rather than give a pay rise across the board to public sector workers they had to give 'allowances' tied to that profession (remember the old chestnut of the gardai getting a shoe allowance.. or the 'eating lunch at your desk allowance').
Allowances definitely were part of core pay (and I think as regards the HDip allowance it was something to do with differentiation between the VEC's or something, with teachers who held the primary degree only (maybe someone can clarify that one))...
MAsters allowance.. how long did it take for that €500 per year (assuming you are on full 22hrs!) pay off a 10k part time masters ?
I'm kind of changing my mind about colleges too.. nobody owes you a living, same as any other degree going. There's no job guaranteed. You could take the converse view that it's great that there's so many who can take the opportunity to emigrate and walk into a teaching career in other countries. So in that regard you pays your money and you takes your choice. I do oppose the 'hours culture' though that has come out of it. I still can't believe the amount of people with families and mortgages contemplating switching to teaching in Ireland either.
Anyhow back to the unions... Yes I firmly believe that NQT's payscale should have been protected, in the heel of the hunt very few were going to land jobs and even at that it wasn't going to be permanent posts on 22hrs either.
The great unknown was what would have happened if CP was rejected for a 3rd time. So if we had voted to reject it (for the 3rd time).. would the NQT's pay-scale have remained untouched? I just don't know.
But what I do know is that Croke Park wasn't just about NQT's.. that 1 vote impacted on a lot of teacher's conditions across the board so everybody had skin in the game whether the NQT's like it or not.
So yes the dept. won... the mission was divide and conquer by throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the mix... everyone had a stake. I even recall our rep saying that there were probably quite a few teachers nationally afraid to talk about the vote in the staff room as it would sound like they were purely out for themselves and not considering the other teachers who it impacted upon differently.0 -
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It's human nature to vote for what suits you and your circumstances. The job market is tough out there. It could be argued that the group most neglected are actually those on poor CIDs. They had to spend 4 years fighting for their measly hours and now it's only 2 years. Of course it's progress and great for those of us with no CIDs but I can see how it might be hard to see a lucky NQT get more hours than you and be on a better CID in half the time. We were all screwed over in some fashion. A lot of senior staff are carrying the disappeared posts. A post holders are worked to the bone. NPTs are fighting for scraps and everyone has lost S&S with most being forced into doing it for free. Everyone has a bone to pick with the system, regardless of their job status. The Ward report has done a lot for NPTs. Pay might be contentious and unfair but there is a better chance of job stability than before.0
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And did every teacher have different pay based on age or year of entry? Were you paid significantly less than your colleagues?
Can you point out where I said casualisation was unique to NQTs? Because I didn't. Another poster seemed to think it didn't affect us and I was merely pointing out it did.
Pontificate all you want about the union helping if only we would join - newsflash, many NQTs are in the unions and do lobby and attend meetings. But guess what! The ruling majority i.e. the older staff have no interest in us getting equal pay and the unions aren't doing anything for us regardless.
I have already stated this: a union official told me explicitly that NEVER will we get our allowances back! So WHY would I pay them? They've already shown their hand and proven a complete lack of interest in us.
It's a bit of a catch 22 situation. If all NQTs, NPTs and people on poor CIDs fought together they would be a powerful group and the 'ruling majority' would not have the power. Of course people are going to vote for their own cause. Older teachers will protect the pension, more senior teachers will want posts reintroduced if they're next in line etc. You have no vote if you are not in the union.0 -
It's a bit of a catch 22 situation. If all NQTs, NPTs and people on poor CIDs fought together they would be a powerful group and the 'ruling majority' would not have the power. Of course people are going to vote for their own cause. Older teachers will protect the pension, more senior teachers will want posts reintroduced if they're next in line etc. You have no vote if you are not in the union.
From my experience of union meetings, most of the time is taken up with issues regarding part time teachers and teachers on CID contracts. I don't know if it's just my ETB, but they seem to go out of their way to make life even more difficult for these people than it already is. The union officers spend hours of their own time working on these individuals' cases, and bringing them to the attention of headquarters. There might not be a particular lobby for NQT's general terms and conditions but there certainly is a lot of work going on for individual NQT's and others with issues.0 -
The union is its members. They were invaluable to me this year in getting me from a 17hr CID to a 22hr one when my principal was like why aren't you happy? why are you complaining? He just would not/did not understand the difference between a 17hr contract and a 22hr. It didn't suit him to, he wanted the extra hours to ensure he got a good calibre part timer (15hr post advertised in my subject as opposed to the 10hr one it would have been if he gave me the 22hr). He told me this in our meeting! The union negotiated with the ETB. I got my contract. They helped at least 4 teachers in my staffroom this year and as someone mentioned above the ETB's really seem to be chancing their arms with contracts-you really need to be on the ball.
Without the union we would have been torn to shreds during this recession. And thats not counting the work the unions had done since the last recession. My parents are both teachers and I remember the worry every summer. My dad didn't have a permanent job until I was in secondary school. When he had three small kids he had to go to Spain for the summer to teach english and make ends meet-pay and conditions were shocking and it was way way worse than two pay scales. They have better pensions than me but I don't begrudge them a penny. Teachers and their unions worked bloody hard in the 90s to make teaching a decently paid profession.
Honestly if you want some idea what would have happened without a union take a look at the defence for salary scales and allowances. The force is down by something like 500 people and the budget cuts have been stringent. The pay was fairly rubbish before the recession, never mind now! And unlike the teaching profession many of these personel can make an absolute fortune abroad for the same work. I have a friend in the air corp who left due to the pay and is now working abroad making about 6 times his salary abroad and that is going by gross salary not net. He doesn't have to pay tax on his earnings abroad! He is in a normal country not a war zone or anything. When he visited his excolleagues before Christmas one of his bosses told him (jokingly) to stop visiting because people keep leaving every time he comes because the pay is so much better abroad.
We have gone backwards, but we are not in the 80s yet. And the Ward report has done a massive service to NQT's with the new CID arrangements. I could resent that if I wanted to because I had to wait unlike the new recruits but I don't-I'm delighted for the teachers it will affect! We are not the only Public/Civil service with two salary scales. Have a look at the impact website here! There are at least 3, if not 4 different pension arrangements too. You have to join the union and keep fighting. The country is coming out of recession, these fights will become a little easier with the budget close to being balanced. Why you would give up the fight just when things are starting to improve?!0 -
The whingeing going on here is extremely tiresome,but has been very well countered by many posters whose points are inarguable. I attend all my branch meetings and two things have dominated all meetings this past year:the junior cycle campaign and casualisation. So there is no doubt whatsoever that it is top of the union agenda and many hard working union people are doing everything in their power to improve the situation. I really don't know what else you expect us to do and your attitude is reminiscent of the mud slinging of private sector towards public sector which has served the Gov agenda so handsomely.We are all teachers for chrissake and we have all suffered,albeit in different ways!
Like katydid I also qualified in the 80's and I completely back up everything she says about what life was like then for an NQT. No conditions or stability whatsoever. A week here,a day there,hourly pay,nothing during holidays. Of a group of five of us who qualified together,one ended up with a permanent teaching job, me,but that was years down the line having had to emigrate first. The other four all had to change career direction. I came back in the 90's when things were on the up but was still very lucky to get a permanency within 5 years.
But if you think that older permanent teachers have it all cosy just consider this: I'm now in my 50's with not even 20 years pensionable service and feeling worn out and burnt out but with just two stark choices: stick it out until 65 despite the fact that it's going to get much tougher and I'm already tiring and ageing, or else pack it in now and face a future on the breadline. Because that is the reality of a career in teaching. Lateral, upward or even downward mobility don't exist as they do in other careers and you're basically only as good as your last set of results. And my results year in,year out have been top notch as I've given it my all,but there are no rewards in this job.Again unlike other jobs.
But I have to suck it up. I chose teaching as a career and until the Gov made great use of the recession to destroy our conditions,I enjoyed it and felt appreciated and rewarded. But nobody can predict the future and every choice you make in life is a gamble.Oh I could still go off and learn a new skill, you're never too old to learn,but obviously it's a hell of a lot harder to branch into a new career in your 50's than in your 20's or 30's,so that is one big advantage younger teachers have over the older ones. And believe me I'm not the only older teacher in career crisis.
So, there are many of us of all ages feeling hard done by, but I have no doubt that without a union things would be a whole lot worse.0 -
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Well said.The whingeing going on here is extremely tiresome,but has been very well countered by many posters whose points are inarguable. I attend all my branch meetings and two things have dominated all meetings this past year:the junior cycle campaign and casualisation. So there is no doubt whatsoever that it is top of the union agenda and many hard working union people are doing everything in their power to improve the situation. I really don't know what else you expect us to do and your attitude is reminiscent of the mud slinging of private sector towards public sector which has served the Gov agenda so handsomely.We are all teachers for chrissake and we have all suffered,albeit in different ways!
Like katydid I also qualified in the 80's and I completely back up everything she says about what life was like then for an NQT. No conditions or stability whatsoever. A week here,a day there,hourly pay,nothing during holidays. Of a group of five of us who qualified together,one ended up with a permanent teaching job, me,but that was years down the line having had to emigrate first. The other four all had to change career direction. I came back in the 90's when things were on the up but was still very lucky to get a permanency within 5 years.
But if you think that older permanent teachers have it all cosy just consider this: I'm now in my 50's with not even 20 years pensionable service and feeling worn out and burnt out but with just two stark choices: stick it out until 65 despite the fact that it's going to get much tougher and I'm already tiring and ageing, or else pack it in now and face a future on the breadline. Because that is the reality of a career in teaching. Lateral, upward or even downward mobility don't exist as they do in other careers and you're basically only as good as your last set of results. And my results year in,year out have been top notch as I've given it my all,but there are no rewards in this job.Again unlike other jobs.
But I have to suck it up. I chose teaching as a career and until the Gov made great use of the recession to destroy our conditions,I enjoyed it and felt appreciated and rewarded. But nobody can predict the future and every choice you make in life is a gamble.Oh I could still go off and learn a new skill, you're never too old to learn,but obviously it's a hell of a lot harder to branch into a new career in your 50's than in your 20's or 30's,so that is one big advantage younger teachers have over the older ones. And believe me I'm not the only older teacher in career crisis.
So, there are many of us of all ages feeling hard done by, but I have no doubt that without a union things would be a whole lot worse.0 -
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I also qualified in the 80s.I was one of those who queued outside INTO Head Office hoping some principal would ring looking for a sub for even a day's work. No mobiles, internet, text a sub.
During the Tiger years, my husband and I were the youngest two members in our local branch. No NQTS/Younger teachers, not one. When the new pay scales kicked in, suddenly we saw an influx of members and rightly so.
I feel sorry for the teachers who struggle now, but in common with everyone else, I feel if you want "the union" to do something, then get off your ass , go to meetings, congress, make your feelings known to CEC reps and to politicians.0 -
byhookorbycrook wrote: »I feel sorry for the teachers who struggle now, but in common with everyone else, I feel if you want "the union" to do something, then get off your ass , go to meetings, congress, make your feelings known to CEC reps and to politicians.
I agree completely. I totally understand that NQTs feel angry and frustrated but ultimately the only way forward is by working with the union. There's just no other way. Personally I would love to see an overhaul of the union with ASTI and TUI amalgamated for 2nd level teachers and I would like to see the paid union officials more accountable for their statements and decisions, but I think remaining outside the union and moaning that they don't represent you is pointless.
One problem I have experienced in regards to NPTs becoming active in the union is the negative opinion of some influential principals. There is a cohort of principals within my ETB who are very against the union despite being members. They are vocal in their criticism of union actions and directives, some have spoken publicly against the union and at least some have made negative comments about union involvement in their own schools. They are active NAPD members and as we have seen NAPD have undermined union stance on a number of issues. Some from this group attend all branch meetings and NPTs from within my ETB are too afraid to become more involved or to speak up. Colleagues have told me that the biggest difference they see now versus their own experience as NQTs during the difficult 80s is that they had the support of their principals in fighting for better conditions then, whereas now, despite improved conditions being available on paper, we are being deliberately kept on poor contracts as a matter of policy by our principals.0 -
But if you think that older permanent teachers have it all cosy just consider this: I'm now in my 50's with not even 20 years pensionable service and feeling worn out and burnt out but with just two stark choices: stick it out until 65 despite the fact that it's going to get much tougher and I'm already tiring and ageing, or else pack it in now and face a future on the breadline. Because that is the reality of a career in teaching. Lateral, upward or even downward mobility don't exist as they do in other careers and you're basically only as good as your last set of results. And my results year in,year out have been top notch as I've given it my all,but there are no rewards in this job.Again unlike other jobs.
But I have to suck it up. I chose teaching as a career and until the Gov made great use of the recession to destroy our conditions,I enjoyed it and felt appreciated and rewarded. But nobody can predict the future and every choice you make in life is a gamble.Oh I could still go off and learn a new skill, you're never too old to learn,but obviously it's a hell of a lot harder to branch into a new career in your 50's than in your 20's or 30's,so that is one big advantage younger teachers have over the older ones. And believe me I'm not the only older teacher in career crisis.
Wow, just wow. You speak for an enormous number of increasingly disillusioned teachers, myself included (albeit younger). As somebody who also loved teaching and thought I'd be there until retirement, I had to leave internet land on reading that yesterday. I then went out for another day to help a friend by handraking a field full of stones and try and make it into a garden, while somebody else used a machine to rake it beforehand. In between apposite (in more ways than one) reflections on stony grey soil of Monaghan ("the laugh from my love you thieved...you told me the plough was immortal"), I felt like Sisyphus pushing that rock up a hill only to see it keep rolling down.
A few things. First, there are people who have to do that sort of physically- and soul-destroying work every day of their lives; we are beyond blessed that we are not among them.
Second, the guy who learnt a bit more to be able to drive the digger made a much easier life for himself (i.e. learn a new skill, however small, and make life easier than it currently is; you only need to learn enough to get in the "digger" of whatever job you do).
Third, taking into account the meagre pension awaiting us it's not smart to be using our 4.5 months holidays per year to be helping people or falling into the "sure they're on holidays" trap where everyone asks you to help out when in reality we should be building up some sort of liveable income for our retirement in our "free" time. We all need to be building up a war chest now. In a nutshell, with a pension so small, this teacher at any rate cannot afford to be on holidays, and seeing as holidays were one of the key reasons to get into teaching... (you can see where this is going).
Fourth, like you I too am very afraid (a strong word) that conditions for teachers are only going to decline and it is that part of your post which most unsettled me, as the truth often unsettles. There's very little point in having a permanent, pensionable post when the conditions of the employment are barely recognisable compared to 10 years ago and a future of poverty-line living is the cloud over retirement. A permanent, pensionable post with poor salary and poor conditions is in a completely different career world to a permanent, pensionable post with poor salary but good conditions of employment. If we're going to have poor conditions of employment, well, we might as well get paid much better for them. I've spoken with some career advisers about leaving teaching and their advice to date has been to keep the teaching going while using the holidays to explore other avenues for financial security. That seems fairly solid advice so far.
Younger teachers (especially if they want to live in Dublin) really should wise up to the financial reality facing them and make rational decisions because it will, unfortunately, become more difficult to change careers when they get older (and the years fly). You may enjoy the holidays, travelling and the like in your 20s and 30s but there's a price to pay for having such a career. Once you have kids, your summer holidays will not be your own - you'll be the babysitter. All the great, helpful things you'll do for people on your holidays will do nothing to get you out of the financially perilous state which is the result of being employed/paid for 7.5 months a year, and unemployed/unpaid for 4.5 months a year.0
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