Is Islam in crisis?

Tom Dunne

In light of Friday's events, previous events and of course the situation in the Middle East, do you think that Islam is undergoing a crisis of identity?

I live and work amongst Muslims and I know that the vast majority of them do not support the beheading of, well, anyone, do not support a lunatic going onto a beach and randomly firing at any white person he encounters and certainly do not condone somebody blowing themselves up in a place of worship.

Events such as what has happened in France are blamed on disaffected youths, yet we have disaffected youths in Irish cities who do not go around beheading anyone and trying to blow up chemical factories.

With the rise of radical Islam, the Sunni/Shia divide and the geopolitical situation in the Middle East, I would welcome opinions from both Muslims and non-Muslims as to whether you think Islam is undergoing a crisis of identity.

glaston

I'm not involved with Islam.
The only time I ever hear about it is when its radical adherents murder people.
Even moderate Islam appears to be at odds with current western values.

Michael OBrien

There is not one type of Islam, either religiously, politically or geographically. So what type of Islam are you referring to?
I am not a muslim, however I do take an interest in the abrahamic faiths, as they affect the world I live in a lot.
Islam the religion, a monocultural entity, does not in fact exist IMO, there are hundreds of 'Islamic' faiths nowadays and the term 'Islam' as an umbrella term is not very useful when discussing their merits, much like the term 'christianity' is largely meaningless when reform or problems occur as there are so many types out there that use the label.

There are problems facing Islam, coming from inside it and from outside it, regardless of denomination.
The geo-political pressures are enormous, and there is certainly media bias (both ways) on that religion nowadays, depending on the situation, that must make a practising muslim re-evaluate their beliefs to see if they are able to continue accepting them as they used to. This is perfectly normal for people to do, and healthy, as stagnancy would creep in otherwise if complacency was the norm (and it was).

There is also the very strong challenge of scientific progress, which seems to severely hit the abrahamic faiths pretty hard these days.
Those muslims that stick to a creationist viewpoint will find themselves marginalised in some cultures and accepted more in others, depending on the access to information and the dominance of that religious/political culture.

What we see is a rise in polarisation in all fundamentalistic religions, and Islam, being one of the biggest, and up to recently, (last 100 or so years) relatively unchallenged doctrinally in any wide public sense (yes there were plenty of muslim and non muslim scholars that challenged Islamic teachings throughout history, but most muslims don't know about them), is finding that some of their members either leaving Islam or going towards a more fundamental stance.

There is of course nothing happening in Islam that does not occur in other faiths, only the degree of polarisation seems more acute.

The rise of creationism in public discourse (e.g. a denial of evolution) also picks at sensitive scabs in Islamic doctrines that cannot be avoided as easily as before, now that many more muslims are literate and have access to internet. This creationist viewpoint has been bolstered by mimicking Christian creationist tactics in the West, and often attempting to restrict access to the internet in other places.

The clash of cultures, in a world where people can travel within 24 hours to the other side of the glove, has shocked everyone, Islamic or not. Tribalism is a key root of discord here, as identity is tied to culture and having an influx of radically different cultures leads to a temporary imbalance and that leads to insecurities. This can result in a forced (as in strained) re-commitment to a religious mindset that the person knows little about, being lead by opportunists that seek power and influence.

There is also a lot more academic study of the history of Islam, and the often accepted stories that back the faith. These, much like Judaism and Christianity, will change as facts emerge to dispute them and a new paradigm will emerge that may alter Islam irrevocably.

blinding

Sure ! What religion can stand up to one simple question ?

Have you any proof whatsoever for your Allah/God.

I ain't buying no pig in a poke these days. I want solid Evidence.

old_aussie

Is Islam in crisis?

Maybe, but a lot of the world is in crisis due islam.

Tom Dunne

Michael OBrien wrote: »

There is not one type of Islam, either religiously, politically or geographically. So what type of Islam are you referring to?

Yeah, that's a fair point. I should know that, especially considering I am immersed in Muslim culture on a daily basis.

I suppose I am looking primarily in the Middle East - so that's Sunni Islam, in particular Salafism (open to correction here).

Michael OBrien wrote: »

there is certainly media bias (both ways) on that religion nowadays, depending on the situation, that must make a practising muslim re-evaluate their beliefs to see if they are able to continue accepting them as they used to.

I'm not sure I agree with that. There are, in my experience, very few Muslims who openly question their faith and beliefs. It's just simply not done, almost taboo.

Michael OBrien wrote: »

This is perfectly normal for people to do, and healthy, as stagnancy would creep in otherwise if complacency was the norm (and it was).

Healthy, perhaps, from a Western perspective, but I disagree that it is normal in this part of the world. And in fact I would go so far as to say maintaining the status quo is actually seen as a good thing.

Michael OBrien wrote: »

What we see is a rise in polarisation in all fundamentalistic religions, and Islam, being one of the biggest, and up to recently, (last 100 or so years) relatively unchallenged doctrinally in any wide public sense (yes there were plenty of muslim and non muslim scholars that challenged Islamic teachings throughout history, but most muslims don't know about them), is finding that some of their members either leaving Islam or going towards a more fundamental stance.

And I think you have touched on something fundamental to Islam - the lack of willingness to question authority, established doctrine, or what is seen as indisputable fact. From my own personal perspective, I see it daily in my job. It's incredible to see a person in authority not being challenged (constructively, of course), despite a room full of people knowing he/she is wrong. I come from a culture, especially having worked in the US, where it is ok to challenge authority, it is ok to ask questions, it is ok to disagree.

Michael OBrien wrote: »

There is of course nothing happening in Islam that does not occur in other faiths, only the degree of polarisation seems more acute.

I think you have said something that I have been trying to say on this forum for a very long time - in no insignificant number of ways, Islam is no different to any other religion. I think the hijacking of the religion by particular groups, in addition to the 24x7 media coverage and of course cunning use of social media provides a platform for fringe elements that was not available when similar elements emerged in other religions.

Michael OBrien wrote: »

The rise of creationism in public discourse (e.g. a denial of evolution) also picks at sensitive scabs in Islamic doctrines that cannot be avoided as easily as before, now that many more muslims are literate and have access to internet. This creationist viewpoint has been bolstered by mimicking Christian creationist tactics in the West, and often attempting to restrict access to the internet in other places.

Having been to a number of Muslim countries, pretty much every one of them restrict access to the internet. There is no such thing as free speech, and you would be surprised at the number of sites lads from home would send me that I cannot access, for whatever reason.

Michael OBrien wrote: »

There is also a lot more academic study of the history of Islam, and the often accepted stories that back the faith. These, much like Judaism and Christianity, will change as facts emerge to dispute them and a new paradigm will emerge that may alter Islam irrevocably.

But how will this change occur? How will Islam change? I remarked a while back about how ideas proliferated throughout Europe, in my opinion, due to the coherency the Pope brought to the continent. There is no such coherency in Islam, no central authority.

Michael OBrien

Tom Dunne wrote: »

But how will this change occur? How will Islam change? I remarked a while back about how ideas proliferated throughout Europe, in my opinion, due to the coherency the Pope brought to the continent. There is no such coherency in Islam, no central authority.

I believe it will fracture more and more. The primary reason Islam has held together as long as it has, despite lacking a central human authority (living that is), is the level of pressure applied to be subservient to the hidden authority of the Islamic god and the consequences for doubting or strongly questioning it, via religious and social mandates.
As muslims spread across other cultures (and visa versa) you will see a far wider view of what Islam means to the people that claim adherence to it and the punishment for such views is far harder to apply, especially in secular societies.
There is some pushback of course, but times are changing, inevitably. Much like Buddhism in the west can be quite alien to eastern buddhism and christianity in europe can be radically different to the beliefs in Africa (sadly not completely different - homophobia still exists, but is fading).
Of course in countries with strong Islamic roots, change will be far slower, but change cannot be stopped forever, as such action has other costs that affect the well-being of the cultures that try to isolate their populations ( Medieval Japan and modern N. Korea for example).

Islam may have Islam 2.0, which is a synthesis of other beliefs and knowledge and certain practices from traditional Islam.
You can see already may subsets of Islam, that claim true adherence but are rejected by mainstream Islam as heretical. Yet they exist and excluding the horrors of Sunni ISIS, can find a place in this world.

Religions never really die, they wax and wane and sometimes reevolve as a idealistic memory of themselves (like modern pagan religions).
I have no faith in religion, and actually dislike them, but I would be a fool to dismiss their societal impact and purpose as moral and tribal signposts. They may not be true in my eyes, but I doubt either Christianity or Islam will ever die out, or become something completely alien to what we currently see practiced today, at least in my lifetime.

In the west there may indeed be a more settled secular islam, that focuses not on the literal word of the texts but on more metaphysical purposes, relayed in symbolistic terms. As islam gets absorbed into a less religious culture in ireland, I hope that the literal bent becomes obsolete, for all our sakes.

130Kph

I don’t think Islam is in crisis.

I used to think a reformation of it's bad & literal parts was the way forward but now I think that’s impractical. Instead, I think the best thing for Islam in Muslim majority countries is to remove itself from public life, government, public policy etc. and be a purely private issue.

My optimistic prediction is that Islam will just fade into a minority interest of mainly older people over time. Before that it’ll still be around but its ‘power’ will be fading or it’ll be like a Potemkin village.

Just think how good this would be for (people who like) Islam. The international political spotlight would be off it. It could then keep on doing what it’s doing and no longer will it be viewed with suspicion, hostility and harsh criticism – in the way political movements generally are. Its followers could just enjoy their lives, enriched with any interpretation of Islam that they arrive at or choose.

---

It looks to me that all ancient societies created religions that are a reflection of that society. Most religions change as societies change but the creators of Islam set it in stone (as well as insisting that all of society should revolve around it), so ancient Muslim societies unnecessarily & unwittingly made life very, very hard for their descendants.

There are so many young Muslims who are atheist, apostates (a good example is many young people in Tehran for whom Islam is an Orwellian intrusion in their lives), nominal ‘Muslims’ working in International companies, emigres abroad who visit their families in Muslim majority homelands from time to time. The patterns that defanged eg. Catholicism and relegated it to background noise may impact all religions (incl. Islam) in future due to continuing globalisation and/or normal progress over the next 50 -100 years (and the pattern is likely to accelerate due to the speed of communication of ideas).

I would be delighted if there was a Nov 89 fall-of-Berlin-wall moment and the citizens of Muslim majority countries ejected the Muslim part of their identity from their public square(emancipation, if you will) - live on 24hour rolling news.

If this doesn’t happen and Islam remains a central bulwark of society & state then it’s going to be a retarding albatross around the necks of these countries for as long as it has a central role.

Anyway, Islam isn’t a sentient being; surely it isn’t anything to be fretting about in that sense?

It’s a form of nostalgia, as Baz Luhrmann might say. How can a form of nostalgia be in crisis?

Michael OBrien

130Kph wrote: »

My optimistic prediction is that Islam will just fade into a minority interest of mainly older people over time. Before that it’ll still be around but its ‘power’ will be fading or it’ll be like a Potemkin village.

There are so many young Muslims who are atheist, apostates (a good example is many young people in Tehran for whom Islam is an Orwellian intrusion in their lives), nominal ‘Muslims’ working in International companies, emigres abroad who visit their families in Muslim majority homelands from time to time. The patterns that defanged eg. Catholicism and relegated it to background noise may impact all religions (incl. Islam) in future due to continuing globalisation and/or normal progress over the next 50 -100 years (and the pattern is likely to accelerate due to the speed of communication of ideas).

Anyway, Islam isn’t a sentient being; surely it isn’t anything to be fretting about in that sense?

It’s a form of nostalgia, as Baz Luhrmann might say. How can a form of nostalgia be in crisis?

I agree that there are many 'muslims' in more secular countries that no longer hold to the idea that Islam is central to their lives. Even in Saudi Arabia, where seemingly being an atheist publically is akin to terrorism, there are atheist groups and plenty of theists can be wishywashy in how serious they place their faith next to other priorities.
However in many Islamic countries, access to knowledge is extremely limited and indoctrination is extremely high, from birth.
A large amount of muslims are below the poverty bracket and in many cases illiterate. Even though they don't know much about their religion intellectually, it is so tied to their identity that giving it up would be next to impossible.
I have deconverted my mother from catholicism over the recent years, yet her initial statements to the shock involved was it was like being told you don't need to breath air. This is from a highly intelligent woman in her 70's, in Ireland, who was never a bible thumper, just a sincere believer in jesus.
Now she is happier than ever before as an atheist, but it was a difficult transition. I would imagine that such dramatic deconversions in places like Iraq or Syria would be truly mindblowing.

However in this thread, I don't believe the OP was asking is Islam dying out, only what will happen to it and I certainly don't believe that it will die out anytime in my lifetime, or the lifetime of the next generation.
Reform is one possibility, but much like Judaism, you will not have ALL muslims accept such a Islam 2.0.

Is a misplaced nostalgia part of the appeal for Islam (and some other religions)? Yes, progress is frightening to many, and alien to some. Many cults and movements are luddite in nature, harking back to simpler times, with massive doses of 'rose tinted glasses' syndrome present. I have read on-line many statements from muslims about going back to the 'golden age' of Islam (a retrospective that is not born out if you study history) where true islam was practiced and everything was wonderful (a myth too, or historical misremembering to be more accurate)

However I sincerely doubt that is the prime motivator for followers of Islam.
Religious belief is being studied scientifically and there are many factors in it so be careful when making broad statements as to why someone is religious.

130Kph

Islam and culture in ME countries are so inter-twined that one could use either word interchangeably in answering the OP question.

My previous prediction was on reflection, what I hoped would happen (for a better life for citizens living in those countries). So instead what do I think will actually happen in the ME?

(Btw Wikipedia says Salafi Islam has only 50 million adherents mostly in India & Bangladesh, so I am discussing Sunnism in general - as practiced by most in the ME).

As has been said before, most ME countries are developing nations. It’s quite a feat how overall they have improving education levels (a guess), yet questioning Islam is still a taboo.

Overall, due to the taboo on not questioning Islam and its dominating role in society – I expect things will remain generally the same for Sunni Islam for the foreseeable future. There is not much sign or hint anywhere in the region of a secular future. The sheer numbers in each country who are all about religion & sharia is just too large. I imagine there will be small & gradual changes. It’s hard to know the effect of the internet on Sunnism in future. It seems to help some to atheism but others to Jihadism.

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Of course in countries with strong Islamic roots, change will be far slower, but change cannot be stopped forever, as such action has other costs that affect the well-being of the cultures that try to isolate their populations ( Medieval Japan and modern N. Korea for example).

This is the question alright. There seems to be so many vested interests in keeping things the way they are. Public discussion about most subjects only seems to take place within the parameters of what is permissible within that country’s brand of Islam.

I’d hazard a guess that significant change can be effectively stopped for this and the next 2 or 3 generations (given the likely future mixture of education levels, religious indoctrination and overall poverty in each country).

I think the extremists interpretation of Islam is as valid as any other. Most ‘scholars’ reject ISIS interpretation as not real Islam. That’s fine. But i can see how easily ISIS read a few specific sentences or verses in the Koran and take them literally: - it’s very easy to understand.

Millions of people in the ME cannot tolerate any Western (military) bases let alone Western military action in any part of the ME (as well as ongoing anger at Israel over its occupation/existence).

It’s clear to me that this minority feel that a caliphate already exists (& has always existed) from Morocco to Bangladesh - in a loose, ethereal sense. Thus, they are indignant at any Western influence in the ‘Caliphate’. Very, very indignant. I’d opine however that this is a cultural phenomenon even though it appears to be religious.

Even though Sunni / Salafi Jihadists & sympathisers are smaller in number their violence affects everyone in the West & ME – and more so Sunnism’s non-violent, political identities.

But I think Sunnism is so embedded & dominant that even such large scale ideological violence in the region will not change much for this religion for the foreseeable future, in most countries.

Michael OBrien

I came across this article about the rise of atheism in Muslim majority countries, that has an interesting perspective on how the image of an Islamic dominant country is not always (or ever) an accurate reflection of the beliefs of the population. Tom might enjoy it. I would like to hear his thoughts on it. It goes some way towards shedding light on the future of Islam in certain states.
https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/4898/the-rise-of-arab-atheism