Turn Based Strategy: Team or Initiative based move order

Kilgore__Trout

Hi all,

Was hoping to get your thoughts on an aspect of turn based tactics games.

Do you prefer for character initiative to determine the order in which character can act (Divinity Orginal Sin / Fallout), or for turns to be determined by team (X-Com / Jagged Alliance) or do you like both systems?

Would be interested to hear the reasons for your preferences, and any observations you might like to share about each system.

Thanks for reading!

Digital Solitude

What's an Initiative based system, for clarification?

Team-based ones are enjoyable and very engrossing, but there does need to be a lot of depth to the combat, troops and enemies to prevent it becoming stale too quickly.

Are you planning on designing a game?

Kilgore__Trout

Hey, thanks for the response.

Instead of having team A move, then team B, a character stat, usually initiative (often determined by a speed stat), determines the order in which the combatants get to act. So the character with the highest initiative, regardless of which team they are on, gets to act first, followed by the character with the next highest initiative, all the way down to the lowest. Once all the characters have take their turn, the game turn ends, and it's back to the character with the most initiative.

Team based turns can create a high first turn advantage, as one entire team gets to act first, possibly doing a lot of damage to their opponents before they even get to act. With an initiative based system, players at least get to compete for the valuable first moves, but certain features, like reaction fire would likely be difficult or clunky to implement.

Yes, I've been working on a turn based RPG for around 7 months now. Am reaching a point where decisions need to be made, so was hoping for some input to guide the decisions : ) In case you'd like to have an early look, here's a very early demo of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zt1cGEzFmU
(mods: feel free to remove if it's not okay to post link)

Generic Dreadhead

X-Com and Jagged Alliance all the way!

Orim

Both work well as long as they're well balanced. You've proven that with the four examples you provided. So really it depends on the game and it's mechanics.

As you said, in team based systems you have to watch out for an overwhelming first turn advanatage. But for initiative, you have to watch out for stat stacking. For example if speed controls initiative and movement, it could be very easy to stack speed and just kite any enemies.

If you wanted to go crazy, you could try an initiative system that was based on something other than stats. Could base on racial perferances, quests and their statuses or location. Could be anything really but it would make for a weird system and probably not worth it. Although, if it's a system where you have a large group that you select your party from then it could incentivise an electic party selection.

Retr0gamer

Really it just depends on the game. Something like Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre have a system were the turn order is decided by initiative or speed stats. It means you can see a turn order before you make a move and also how any move you make will affect turn order. To balance that the games are rock hard, some of the hardest I've ever played, but hugely satisfying. Then again X-com is team based but is also rock hard. However I mostly find that team based is a lot more lenient meaning it's easier to gang up on the AI and crush an enemy each turn before they can retaliate. It's not fair but it's very satisfying.

If I was going the multiplayer route team based is harder to balance due to the first turn advantage but some games like Advance wars work very well with it but would by no means be competitive. per character speed stat based is probably fairer with turns decided randomly for units with the same speed stat.

Kilgore__Trout

@ Orim: Yes, all the games mentioned are first rate, so the devil's likely to be in the details. Good point re stat stacking. The setting is contemporary, so the lack of magical equipment with stat boosts will limit it to how the player allocates their stat points, but it's definitely something to look out for.

@ Retogamer: The system you have described with FFT is pretty much what's in place, albeit in a fairly simple form so far. One thing I like about it is that you know who's next to move, so you can try to team up and take down enemies before they get their shot. On the other hand, reaction fire is a nice tactical addition, and it's difficult to see how it might have a place in an initiative based system.

Sieghardt

Initiative based ala shining force is best imo, I find round based often results in too many pile-ons where single characters get attacked by everyone and have noi hope of surviving

It kind of works out ok in games like XCOM and Valkyria because you have covering defensive fire to help prevent that though

K.O.Kiki

Valkyria Chronicles is so good - until you level up Scouts and realise they can win games the first 1-3 rounds by themselves.

Kilgore__Trout

Hi again,

Thanks again for the feedback. Decided to stick with the initiative based system. Have made fairly good progress over the last few months, and recently made another development video, if you'd like to see how things are going.

The video covers a single mission from the game, where you encounter a potential ally. This ally has been lured to a desolate part of the city, and ambushed by a group of paramilitary survivalists. You need to work together to fight your way out.

Here's a link:

If you have any comments, observations, or questions, fire away. I'd be happy to talk to you.

Kilgore__Trout

An artist has recently come on board, and has just finished the first illustration for the game. I'm really happy with it, but I wanted to find out what you think.



It's really nice to see some artwork, makes a pleasant change from coding AI, combat, character, and inventory systems : )

Digital Solitude

That looks really beautiful, will the characters and world be a similar style or is this concept artwork?

Kilgore__Trout

Glad you like it. This above illustration will be used in a cut scene, and is partly based on in-game assets (the protagonist 3d model) but it's very much in the artist's style. All 2D artwork will be made in a this style, which seems to me (a layman) to be a traditional/painted style.

I'm not very well versed on art terminology, but the in game style is perhaps leaning a little more towards realism. Here's a recent in-game shot, so you can judge for yourself : ) (It's worth noting that all the UI elements are placeholders, and will be replaced over the coming months)

Kilgore__Trout

Hello again.

Here's another illustration from the game. Was really, really happy with the way this one turned out:



And here's a very brief development video. The video looks at how firing from full cover is handled with pistols and rifles:

If you have any questions, comments or observations, I'll be checking in on the thread, and would be happy to talk to you.

Kilgore__Trout

Here's the most recent illustration, which will be used as a base for the main menu. Really happy with this one too, and there are some really nice neon light effects when you hover over the buttons. I'll post a video of that fairly soon, so you can see. Also, have settled on the name, Vigilantes : )