Waterford city boundary extension

kikel

road_high wrote: »

Arrogance beyond belief and if ever you wanted to see the attitude of Waterford towards Kilkenny and in general the rest of the S East one only has to read this absolute rubbish; you'd think if you were trying to rob another party of a county and subsume it into your own you'd at least try a little diplomacy, but no;
http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/home/202788/Waterford-goes-on-the-attack-and.html

I wouldn't see that as arrogant. If anything, I would see a lot of logic behind their points. Remember there are 2 sides to every story and somewhere in between lies the truth.

Have you seen Kilkenny video as part of the proposal? Worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN_BZ8pxu8I

There are lots of points in the video. Some valid. I'm only picking on the opening point though as it shows Kilkenny County Council have their heads up there arses.

"Significant District Shopping Centres draw from the city centre" Ahhh, That what the Ferrybank centre will do.... And it's currently lieing empty.

road_high

kikel wrote: »

I wouldn't see that as arrogant. If anything, I would see a lot of logic behind their points. Remember there are 2 sides to every story and somewhere in between lies the truth.

Have you seen Kilkenny video as part of the proposal? Worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN_BZ8pxu8I

There are lots of points in the video. Some valid. I'm only picking on the opening point though as it shows Kilkenny County Council have their heads up there arses.

"Significant District Shopping Centres draw from the city centre" Ahhh, That what the Ferrybank centre will do.... And it's currently lieing empty.

There are empty shopping centres all-over Ireland....does that mean we should we abolish all such county councils as well? This was a privately developed entity, Kilkenny county council didn't fund it- the developers took a risk, built it and the economy tanked soon after. In the case of Waterford I find it more than a little hypocritical seen as they promoted all development on the outer suburbs at the expense of the city centre which is now a shadow of it's former self; this has absolutely nothing to do with Kilkenny as the Ferrybank centre is unoccupied. They're hardly a beacon of good planning.
What about all the successes of Kilkenny local authority such as the development of port infrastructure and surrounding industries (the ones Waterford want to get their hand on the revenue from)? It's easy point out the odd failure to support a particular narrative.

kikel

The Kilkenny council are totally to blame for the shopping centre. It was a bad idea for Waterford. Yes I agree Waterford are just as bad re very similar planning decisions. My point is that KCC are using this bad planning against WCC when KCC are just as bad.

I would be sceptical about Kilkenny's involvement in the development of Waterford port. They got lucky in that the city port was no longer viable and need to move. The fact that Waterford council lost this port even though it is so close to Waterford city is a real sticky/sore point for them. One I personally understand from an independent viewpoint. I feel my viewpoint is a little bit more independent as I'm originally from Laois. Look at Gragicullen in Carlow. The same applies. That is more Carlow than Laois.

IMO, the council only want to hold on to south Kilkenny for Financial reasons. Belview is a major source of revenue to them. They will use/promote personal identity stuff to push their financial agenda.

Dunmoreroader

http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/en/media/BoundaryCommittee/Submission%20to%20Boundary%20Review%20Committee%2022%20January.pdf

Draw your own conclusions..........

comeraghs

The economic development of Waterford City & its suburbs & the South-East in its totality need to be prioritized & a coordinated and integrated development will be safeguarded by this change to the boundary.
The completely inappropriate planning approval & development of a huge shopping centre in Ferrybank & the inaction by Kilkenny County Council regarding the provision of recycling & flood prevention schemes & road infrastructure proves that they have no interest in Ferrybank & Slieverue & Waterford Port other than gathering revenue to invest in Kilkenny Town.
Kilkenny County Council will insist that cooperation is the way forward but their track-record of underinvestment currently & over several decades undermines this insistence.
Waterford presently suffers from unbalanced development with almost everything happening on the south of the River Suir. The only major move by Kilkenny County Council was a badly thoughout attempt to sabotage Waterford City Centre which backfired badly with Dunnes Stores realising that such an enormous development wasn't a commercial reality.

Kilkenny's attempts to hold onto the area under review despite the fact that the vast majority of people affected were born, educated, shop & socialise in Waterford is nothing but a revenue gathering exercise & something that the people living in the area deserve better than.

Making economic decisions in 2016 based on medieval borders & what hurling team you support is simply idiotic. This decision MUST be based on logic & rational & not on who shouts the loudest. It makes total sense that Waterford's suburbs & hinterland are administered from the City closest to it & not from 50 kms away.

WHY OPPOSE THE CHANGE?
I have seen two reasons given.
1 Up The Cats, Black & Amber, Blah Blah Blah! This really has nothing to do with the cold hard reality of life in 2016. St Mollerans GAA club in Carrickbeg play in the Waterford championship & provide players for Waterford as they are located in County Waterford, However as Carrickbeg is a suburb of Carrick-on-Suir town, similar to Ferrybank & Slieverue being suburbs of Waterford, services such as bins etc are administered by Tipperary CoCo. Doesn't that make sense?
2. We've always been Kilkenny, Times change, We were once all part of the British Empire & that changed, Some Kilkenny politicians remind me strongly of Ian Paisley with his NEVER NEVER NEVER, well he moved with the times eventually & the Kilkenny politicians will learn to live with the new realities also. Their self-interest should not trump the wishes & best interests of the majority.

comeraghs

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/decade-old-boundary-survey-worth-revisiting/


A decade ago, a majority of South Kilkenny residents surveyed in the area identified by the potential boundary change then proposed by Waterford City Council favoured such a realignment.
That unexpected conclusion was recalled by John Gilsenan of Inistioge-based Market Dynamics, just days before Waterford and Kilkenny clash ash in the All-Ireland Senior Hurling Semi-Final at Croke Park.
“We decided to conduct our own investigation expecting to find similar levels of outrage coming from the actual people who were, potentially, about to become residents of County Waterford,” said Mr Gilsenan.
The 2005 proposal by Waterford City Council accounted for 20 townlands north of the Suir – 5,000 acres and 5,000 residents – and led to accusations of “land grabbing” by some Kilkenny County Councillors in relation to the Waterford proposal.
This refrain has been repeated in recent weeks by some Kilkenny Councillors since the appointment of a Boundary Commission which will re-examine the issue and report back to cabinet by November.
“We did 150 face-to-face interviews with residents in the area that was supposedly under threat and to our surprise found that more people were in favour of the move than opposed it,” said Mr Gilsenan.
“This was because the majority of people living in the area were not from Kilkenny and therefore didn’t have an emotional attachment to the county.
“For this reason we found that 49 per cent of the people we interviewed supported the move, 33 per cent opposed it while a further 18 per cent had no opinion either way.”
Given that the surveyed area was largely urban and indistinguishable from the rest of Waterford city (i.e. Ferrybank) it is perhaps no surprise that two-thirds of residents weren’t from Kilkenny, said Mr Gilsenan.
“When asked ‘what county do you come from’, a total of 45 per cent claimed to be from Waterford while 22 per cent were from other counties,” he said.
“Those who were in favour of the plan were asked why they did so and about half (49 per cent) gave as one of their reasons the area’s proximity to Waterford.
“A significant proportion (28 per cent) said they thought that services would be better under the new regime while the same proportion felt the area had been neglected in recent years.”
But what of the Kilkenny-born and bred respondents? “Though many strongly opposed the plan, this view was by no means unanimous, with a significant number in favour of the proposed change. However, it is also clear from the research that many who opposed the plan did so with great vigour.”
Why so? “Their key objection to the plan was that they wanted to stay part of the county of their birth.”
John Gilsenan added: “In a final question we asked all respondents whether, if Waterford City & County Council’s plan went ahead, they thought services to residents would improve, 51 per cent thought they would.
“Overall, looking at the findings it is clear that the Waterford plan had considerable support from householders within the area in question.”
The 2005 interviews were conducted with a random sample of householders living in the area covered in the Waterford Boundary Extension Plan and it’s worth noting that the study wasn’t sponsored by any organisation.
Speaking to The Munster Express last week, John Gilsenan said Market Dynamics was considering “a similar and possibly a more comprehensive survey” on the boundary issue given the topic’s return to public prominence over the past two months.
“The fact that most of those we surveyed 10 years ago, and it’s worth repeating that these were residents in the area, were in favour of the proposal maybe got lost somewhat given the political utterances made at the time. And now that the discussion has re-opened since the Boundary Commission was appointed, we’re giving serious thought to conducting another survey on the issue.”

comeraghs

Sunday, January 17, 2016

SUBMISSION TO THE WATERFORD BOUNDARY REVIEW COMMISSION ON BEHALF OF WATERFORD INDEPENDENT COUNCILLORS MARY ROCHE, LAURENCE ‘CHA’ O’NEILL & DAVID DANIELS

The proposed extension of the Waterford boundary into Kilkenny which the committee is tasked with examining is undoubtedly the correct decision for the people currently living in that area and indeed for all the people of the wider region. A single authority, driving social, cultural and economic development with no boundary artificially limiting that focus and growth would deliver the best outcome across any matrix you care to examine in the South East Region.

We are aware that detailed demographics & financial details etc. will be contained in the submission by Waterford City & County Council. However we wish to make some general points to be considered by the commission.

In a nutshell the extension of the boundary would merely regularise an anomaly which has arisen whereby much of the population of Waterford CITY who live on the northern side of the city happen to live in a part which has expanded into South County Kilkenny. This means that the people of that area are on the extreme edges of the administrative area of Kilkenny county council when, if they were to be administered by Waterford City & County Council they would immediately be right at the centre of that administration. This would have huge benefits in terms of convenience, efficiency and visibility for the area under review.

Any cursory look at the area being examined would determine that in no way can it be said to be an example of effective or efficient local government. There has been virtually no investment by the local authority in the area over decades and indeed with its’ proximity to the city it could be argued that the suburb should have naturally developed to a far greater extent than it currently has. Kilkenny County Council, for example, has not built one social house in the area – ever. This, despite Ferrybank being the second largest urban area in the then Kilkenny County Council area after Callan. All Local Authority tenants in Ferrybank are tenants of Waterford Council, despite the fact that the Council cannot even sweep the streets in ‘their’ estates.

Placing the area into Waterford would ensure that any bias towards it as a result of being on the periphery would in time be addressed by local service delivery, increased centrality and increased political representation. Despite some (lately given) commitment from Kilkenny (to locate a playground in Ferrybank for example) it is obvious that Ferrybank and environs have been neglected for many years.

The Waterford Division of An Garda Siochana already covers the exact area being examined by the committee. A boundary extension would regularise the Garda/Local Authority boundary and it makes common sense to have the entire area out as far as the by-pass also covered by Waterford Council. The Department of Social Protection offices on the Cork Road in Waterford City also serve that area of South Kilkenny.

It would also, in time regularise the delivery of a myriad of services to that area by many organisations which run into difficulty with the current boundary alignment. Indeed there has been considerable complication for many Waterford organisations who work in the greater Ferrybank area if they happen to be physically located outside the current boundary. It is a ludicrous situation and pertains for example to two projects based just outside the current Waterford boundary run by Waterford Area Partnership and historically funded via FAS in Waterford. Both projects were initiated and continue to be managed by Waterford Area Partnership but are now funded via Kilkenny/Carlow Education Training Board because the rented space for the projects just happens to be outside the city boundary. This creates difficulties with sourcing funding, reporting lines, duplication, evaluation and accountability, for instance.

This in turn highlights another untenable situation whereby disadvantaged people and communities are supposed to access and source help from organisations other than the local authority, based an hour away in Kilkenny city rather than from their ‘local’ city centre, which is on their doorstep in Waterford. This is surely a factor in hindering communities, especially already disadvantaged and excluded communities, from accessing adequate or fair assistance.

When the then Waterford City sought a boundary extension back in 2005 the rate base in the relevant area of South Kilkenny was circa €1.5 million. The rate base currently stands at circa €1.8 million from our information. If the distribution of funds in South Kilkenny was fairly allocated, all of this would be spent on the area, plus a portion of the local government fund as well as any separate grant funding. I don’t think anyone would, or could, claim that this is the case – meaning that South Kilkenny is severely disadvantaged in terms of getting its fair share within the county. Interestingly, even those who advocate against the boundary extension will admit that Ferrybank and environs do not get a fair share of the Kilkenny financial cake or economic development pie.

The Port of Waterford with its economic potential also rests within the area. Interesting in terms of maximising the economic potential of the port, to note that not one cent of their own money was invested in the access road to the port by Kilkenny County Council - a situation which is telling in its own right. That necessitated the National Roads Authority having to build the road – the shortest primary route in the country – even with its own number, the N29. We have no doubt that the Port of Waterford at Bellview which historically was the City’s port and is the very reason for the City’s existence and the adjoining economic zone would be much greater priorities for Waterford City & County Council – which already has a major water treatment plant for the city located there. Kilkenny County Council has always and no doubt continues to focus the majority of its development on Kilkenny city where it is headquartered.

Kilkenny County Council persisted for decades in refusing to upgrade or improve the main Dublin Waterford Road or at least the portion from Kilkenny City to Waterford which was commonly acknowledged as the worst inter-city route in the Country. (The part which is north of Kilkenny City was heavily invested in by comparison.) Indeed it could easily be argued that it was as a result of this type of action that the delivery of national inter-city routes had to be taken from the remit of Local Authorities and placed with an independent body where local rivalries would no longer be a decider in persisting with not developing national primary routes merely to disadvantage ones’ neighbours!

Another prime and much more recent example of the antipathy of Kilkenny County Council towards Waterford is the white elephant of the Ferrybank Shopping Centre. A monstrosity built (inexplicably) directly adjacent to one of the busiest commuter routes in the country. The fact that the centre came to be located where it is, stands as an example of the worst practices in both strategic planning and planning that persisted in any County or beyond. A centre which is demonstrably far too large for a location with approximately 5,000-6,000 people can only have been conceived and implemented by a Council with not just no interest in what damage it might do to the retail product of the immediately adjacent Waterford City Centre but indeed little care for what consequences it might have for the local community – which lost viable neighbourhood centres as a result of its implementation. It now stands, practically empty, as a monument to the madness of some planning decisions which were badly (or maliciously?) conceived and implemented.

That the anchor tenant would persist in fighting an expensive legal action rather than open there is informative. It is probable that without the then Minister at the Department of the Environment providing the money to the local authority for the opening and staffing of a local area office in the shopping centre it would remain entirely empty to this day (while a national staffing embargo was in place for all Councils!) .

We relate these anecdotes to indicate the damage which has been done and/or attempted to be done to Waterford City to hamper its growth and potential in recent decades and to indicate that despite any claimed conversion to co-operation, we do not expect any change in the culture, as demonstrated by the policies, whether stated or not, of recent decades. Any words to the contrary lately echo very hollow when judged in the light of those actions.

We would also respectfully suggest that, despite the rhetoric, there remains a very significant and sizable - though perhaps subdued in light of the tone of some of the debate - cohort of residents who would favour a boundary extension (or who are indifferent). Perhaps their view should be established in a verifiable manner.

We have no doubt whatsoever that the area under review in South Kilkenny would be better served, better planned and more coherently developed if it was administered by Waterford City & County Council. We also have no doubt that Waterford would deliver much more if it were not curtailed by out dated boundaries which have caused unbalanced development whereby it has almost reached the maximum extent of development to the south of the River Suir while north of the river remains under-developed.

Finally we are convinced that this arrangement would be a far more efficient and cost effective method for delivering local government in the area. While it would not cost any less, especially in light of historic under investment.

The people of South Kilkenny could certainly expect a warm welcome from the people of Waterford as well as a far better delivery of services with vastly improved ease of access. There is far more that unites us than divides us and I am sure that arrangements could be made by other bodies (sporting or otherwise) to facilitate people’s preferred loyalties!

screamer

Truth be told the areas in the peripheries of counties the councils couldn't care less about. It's no man's land. As poster above said graiguecullen in Carlow prime example.
Living in the northern border periphery of kilkenny I see here even the lack of ownership when it comes to gritting the roads. I think many a county border could be redrawn. We're 12 miles from Carlow athy 15 to portlaoise and almost 20 to kilkenny. We'd be better off not in kilkenny tbh. We're too far away to matter. Let bellview move to Waterford it makes sense.

jelutong

What a load of rubbish.

pegasus1

On another note...Dublin is restricted of growth by the town of Bray...

road_high

This thing isn't even binding, it's a recommendation NO government is going to touch with a bargepole, especially with things so marginal for all parties. I thought myself it was binding but not at all. With Paudie Coffey gone, there's another nail in the coffin.
"south Kilkenny can expect a warm welcome from Waterford.." did you ever read such patronising, childish stuff? LOL
Very poorly written like something copy and pasted from Cllr Mary Roche in another of her anti Kilkenny rants...anecdotes about old roads, they clearly met in the pub to cobble this together.

Time to rebuild and work together as JP Phelan TD has said.

jelutong

Delighted that Coffey wasn't re-elected. Some of his supporters stuck an election at Aldi on the Belmont Road on the night the election was called. Karma.

road_high

jelutong wrote: »

Delighted that Coffey wasn't re-elected. Some of his supporters stuck an election at Aldi on the Belmont Road on the night the election was called. Karma.

Is that in Waterford for voting? I understand further in is, but perhaps not there? Sounds like rubbing salt in wounds/territory marking and would have done the FG vote no favours at all in south Kilkenny.
FF/SF were making hay on this from what I heard, another own goal FG had on a local issue. It definitely dented JP Phelan's vote and in Roscommon the same issue seriously undermined the chances of Maura Hopkins for them as it was even bigger up there. Few tears for Paudie in FG I'd say.

road_high

I read JP Phelan saying he reckons the committee may recommend some kind of cooperative committee for the area. So reading between lines I wonder will that be the outcome. I think most people would be fine with that as I don't think
anyone is saying Waterford city should have no input at all.

Dunmoreroader

road_high wrote: »

I read JP Phelan saying he reckons the committee may recommend some kind of cooperative committee for the area. So reading between lines I wonder will that be the outcome. I think most people would be fine with that as I don't think
anyone is saying Waterford city should have no input at all.

Good grief; A cooperative committee is it? Maybe they should apply the D'Hondt method and they could reconvene the de Chastelain Commission to decommission all of those incendiary election posters. I noticed one of Ann Phelan's posters staring at me from a lamppost at the bottom of the Rockshire Road so serious wrongs have been committed on both sides of the border.
Cue theme music from Harry's Game. :rolleyes:

Squidvicious

road_high wrote: »

This thing isn't even binding, it's a recommendation NO government is going to touch with a bargepole, especially with things so marginal for all parties. I thought myself it was binding but not at all. With Paudie Coffey gone, there's another nail in the coffin.
"south Kilkenny can expect a warm welcome from Waterford.." did you ever read such patronising, childish stuff? LOL
Very poorly written like something copy and pasted from Cllr Mary Roche in another of her anti Kilkenny rants...anecdotes about old roads, they clearly met in the pub to cobble this together.

Time to rebuild and work together as JP Phelan TD has said.

I think that's the key as well as the fact that Kelly is gone. There's nobody to push for it now and everyone else is likely to more cautious. When you had a minister nicknamed AK47, radical measures were always more likely. I think that we've seen off the boundary extension for now. Of course, it's only a matter of time before the next one. They'll probably win eventually....

road_high

Squidvicious wrote: »

I think that's the key as well as the fact that Kelly is gone. There's nobody to push for it now and everyone else is likely to more cautious. When you had a minister nicknamed AK47, radical measures were always more likely. I think that we've seen off the boundary extension for now. Of course, it's only a matter of time before the next one. They'll probably win eventually....

Nah...nothing will change, it's totally against the wishes of the people there and wider Kilkenny, there's no appetite for this in the wider country bar a few Waterford fanatics, unless there was a single party govt with a huge indefinite majority then maybe it could happen...with the way the Irish political landscape is now. There was 20,000 or more submissions against this, nothing is going to change that.

road_high

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

Good grief; A cooperative committee is it? Maybe they should apply the D'Hondt method and they could reconvene the de Chastelain Commission to decommission all of those incendiary election posters. I noticed one of Ann Phelan's posters staring at me from a lamppost at the bottom of the Rockshire Road so serious wrongs have been committed on both sides of the border.
Cue theme music from Harry's Game. :rolleyes:

Or maybe not...I'd imagine it'll be Kilkenny's perogative and given the bullish and arrogant attidude of Waterford to this whole thing I can't see them being in much mood for this either. Too many cooks and all that...plus I doubt anyone in South KK will be in any rush given the amazing job WCC have made of their own city...

road_high

screamer wrote: »

Truth be told the areas in the peripheries of counties the councils couldn't care less about. It's no man's land. As poster above said graiguecullen in Carlow prime example.
Living in the northern border periphery of kilkenny I see here even the lack of ownership when it comes to gritting the roads. I think many a county border could be redrawn. We're 12 miles from Carlow athy 15 to portlaoise and almost 20 to kilkenny. We'd be better off not in kilkenny tbh. We're too far away to matter. Let bellview move to Waterford it makes sense.

Well are you proposing we get rid of all counties altogether then? Because that's what you are saying, we should have District/Municipal areas based around local towns like Portlaoise, Athy, Carlow, Kilkenny and so on and each surrounding area...no matter how much people scoff at it to suit their agenda, County allegiance is still huge in this country and I could confidently say it would be the will of most Irish people that this should remain so.

Squidvicious

road_high wrote: »

Well are you proposing we get rid of all counties altogether then? Because that's what you are saying, we should have District/Municipal areas based around local towns like Portlaoise, Athy, Carlow, Kilkenny and so on and each surrounding area...no matter how much people scoff at it to suit their agenda, County allegiance is still huge in this country and I could confidently say it would be the will of most Irish people that this should remain so.

I agree with you there. I'm on the border, but I really don't want to be moved in to Waterford. However, as I've said on the Waterford discussion on this topic, I'd have no difficulty with a wholesale redraw of boundaries nationally. By that I mean have either municipal areas or even better, regions. That way, you've got sensible modern boundaries, lower costs(with fewer councils) and the traditional county boundaries remain. If we have a united South-East, there'll be some fight to decide where the headquarters would be!

I really couldn't see a redraw of the boundary by a couple of miles making any difference to Waterford economically. It'll make no difference to the big issues for Waterford i.e. university upgrade, IDA investment, hospital etc.. None at all. At most, it MIGHT mean a couple of thousand houses being built North of the river instead of South over the next 10/20 years. The pro side claimed that we, on the black and amber side, were "pulling on the county jersey" by opposing the move. If they're honest, however, that's exactly what most on the Waterford side were doing also in trying to expand their county.

I hope you're right that we've seen an end to it.

Dunmoreroader

road_high wrote: »

Well are you proposing we get rid of all counties altogether then? Because that's what you are saying, we should have District/Municipal areas based around local towns like Portlaoise, Athy, Carlow, Kilkenny and so on and each surrounding area...no matter how much people scoff at it to suit their agenda, County allegiance is still huge in this country and I could confidently say it would be the will of most Irish people that this should remain so.

At the risk of repeating myself; hold plebiscites in each towns-land under review and we'll find out how many of the 5000 approx. affected favour arcane county lines over logical local government. No need to abandon county system but city/town boundaries should reflect the urban footprint otherwise Loughboy would still be in county Kilkenny rather than Kilkenny City, Salthill in County Galway rather than Galway City, Douglas would still be county cork, Ferrybank would still all be in Co. Kilkenny
The alternative is Luddism masqurading as county pride. Cities expand all the time all over the world; get over it.

road_high

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

At the risk of repeating myself; hold plebiscites in each towns-land under review and we'll find out how many of the 5000 approx. affected favour arcane county lines over logical local government. No need to abandon county system but city/town boundaries should reflect the urban footprint otherwise Loughboy would still be in county Kilkenny rather than Kilkenny City, Salthill in County Galway rather than Galway City, Douglas would still be county cork, Ferrybank would still all be in Co. Kilkenny
The alternative is Luddism masqurading as county pride. Cities expand all the time all over the world; get over it.

And who said anything is stopping it? If anything that area is doing very nicely indeed, attracting new industry beside the Port (hence Waterford push via Paudie Coffey to take it over-rates), which has all been actively supported by the relevant local authority i.e. Kilkenny. Sticking a Waterford over the name plate is not going to change this, if anything it's potentially risky as Waterford local authorities are hardly a shining light for all in terms of planning and development. I think what Waterford people need to "get over" is this is in Co. Kilkenny as it has been for hundreds of years, that's not going to change no matter how many underhand ways you can think of changing it. I suggest they'd be far better served working with the confines of what is already rather than wasting energy trying to changing things that won't be changed.

Squidvicious

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

At the risk of repeating myself; hold plebiscites in each towns-land under review and we'll find out how many of the 5000 approx. affected favour arcane county lines over logical local government. No need to abandon county system but city/town boundaries should reflect the urban footprint otherwise Loughboy would still be in county Kilkenny rather than Kilkenny City, Salthill in County Galway rather than Galway City, Douglas would still be county cork, Ferrybank would still all be in Co. Kilkenny
The alternative is Luddism masqurading as county pride. Cities expand all the time all over the world; get over it.

Fair point. Let's move the boundary back to the river where it was originally;):p

kikel

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

At the risk of repeating myself; hold plebiscites in each towns-land under review and we'll find out how many of the 5000 approx. affected favour arcane county lines over logical local government. No need to abandon county system but city/town boundaries should reflect the urban footprint otherwise Loughboy would still be in county Kilkenny rather than Kilkenny City, Salthill in County Galway rather than Galway City, Douglas would still be county cork, Ferrybank would still all be in Co. Kilkenny
The alternative is Luddism masqurading as county pride. Cities expand all the time all over the world; get over it.

Sensible logic is not allowed.

Squidvicious

kikel wrote: »

Sensible logic is not allowed.

I'll give you sensible logic. If the extension goes ahead, business rates in Kilkenny are estimated to rise by 15%. It's all very saying you're not bothered about Ferrybank but Ferrybank would be a financial loss to Kilkenny. It's a little patronising to suggest that all the sensible logic is on the Waterford side.

road_high

kikel wrote: »

Sensible logic is not allowed.

Well you can't just railroad over the views and wishes of others just because something seems sensible from your own view point. That's just arrogant and presumptive. There's no evidence that this would have brought any positives over and above the status quo.

questionmark?

Squidvicious wrote: »

I'll give you sensible logic. If the extension goes ahead, business rates in Kilkenny are estimated to rise by 15%. It's all very saying you're not bothered about Ferrybank but Ferrybank would be a financial loss to Kilkenny. It's a little patronising to suggest that all the sensible logic is on the Waterford side.

The sensible logic is to get rid of the county system as it in no way reflects modern Ireland. By all means keep it for GAA purposes but the fact remains the whole county fiasco makes no sense in a modern economy. Waterford should be the hub in that part of the country and the local government of that district should be taken care of Waterford City and all towns and villages in an agreed radius instead we get county jersey rubbish going on. In turn KK should be a hub region joined with Carlow promoting the two main population centres and surrounding towns and villages.

Squidvicious

questionmark? wrote: »

The sensible logic is to get rid of the county system as it in no way reflects modern Ireland. By all means keep it for GAA purposes but the fact remains the whole county fiasco makes no sense in a modern economy. Waterford should be the hub in that part of the country and the local government of that district should be taken care of Waterford City and all towns and villages in an agreed radius instead we get county jersey rubbish going on. In turn KK should be a hub region joined with Carlow promoting the two main population centres and surrounding towns and villages.

Personally, I'd be more in favour of regional boundaries. I reckon that would be more of a money saver. Whatever solution you propose, however, the current suggestion of moving the boundary by a couple of miles makes very little sense. As you say, county divisions as they exist today don't reflect modern Ireland. However, a boundary extension which would put Slieverue for example, within a county boundary which would runs practically to Youghal, but yet would be in a different county to it's hinterland to the North makes absolutely no sense either.

road_high

questionmark? wrote: »

The sensible logic is to get rid of the county system as it in no way reflects modern Ireland. By all means keep it for GAA purposes but the fact remains the whole county fiasco makes no sense in a modern economy. Waterford should be the hub in that part of the country and the local government of that district should be taken care of Waterford City and all towns and villages in an agreed radius instead we get county jersey rubbish going on. In turn KK should be a hub region joined with Carlow promoting the two main population centres and surrounding towns and villages.

It's easy dismiss the county thing if you are not on the perceived loosing side. There's no appetite anywhere to change the status quo because you'd soon find each and every county in the state would be up in arms. We are stuck with the counties, we are a very small country, no reason why cooperation can't work. Current counties are here to stay, they're engrained in the physche of the nation, Waterford included. If people were more honest too and admitted it, there was a huge amount of that at play here from that side masquerading behind supposed effective planning to which there is no evidence to back up.

Squidvicious

road_high wrote: »

It's easy dismiss the county thing if you are not on the perceived loosing side. There's no appetite anywhere to change the status quo because you'd soon find each and every county in the state would be up in arms. We are stuck with the counties, we are a very small country, no reason why cooperation can't work. Current counties are here to stay, they're engrained in the physche of the nation, Waterford included. If people were more honest too and admitted it, there was a huge amount of that at play here from that side masquerading behind supposed effective planning to which there is no evidence to back up.

While I think I might differ a little from you in so far as I have no huge problem with changing administrative boundaries (without changing traditional counties outside of that), provided it's done nationally and as part of a wholesale reorganisation of our system of local government. By all means, update current administrative divisions but do it rationally and not on a "beggar my neighbour" basis.
However I think you're quite on the money about the lack of honesty from some on the blue and white side.