Overreacting or the right thing to do.

end of the road

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Watched it. Seems like a 100% legit and reasonable use of force. Fraction of a second to react. People complaining about an hysterical reaction are talking through their hats.

they aren't. they are telling the truth.

end of the road

Canis Lupus wrote: »

And captain 'predictable response' has arrived. This is such a cut and dry case of justified shooting and yet you still can't be happy. It's such a shame the guy wasn't black so you could harp on about that as well :rolleyes:

no, a case of typical hysterical over reaction as per usual with murika

DEFTLEFTHAND

Looks like it could be a case of 'suicide by cop'. People do genuinely use this as a suicide method.

end of the road

Sierra 117 wrote: »

It was definitely the right thing to do. The man pulled out a gun. Real gun or no, you don't do that. The police were completely justified in shooting him.

it was definitely the wrong thing to do. he pulled out a bb gun. differences can easily be told if your of a high standard which other police forces require. the police were completely unjustified in murdering him, so now hopefully they will shove off to another job.

DEFTLEFTHAND

end of the road wrote: »

it was definitely the wrong thing to do. he pulled out a bb gun. differences can easily be told if your of a high standard which other police forces require. the police were completely unjustified in murdering him, so now hopefully they will shove off to another job.

You'd imagine even for a person well versed in firearms that it is very difficult to identify a weapon in a split second at night. Their training tells them to shoot in such a situation. The dead man would also have known that.

It wasn't me!

I'm very well versed in firearms. The differences are not at all apparent in low light in a split second high stress situation. Some are utterly realistic even in good light and would require an examination to differentiate. In any case, it's reasonable to expect that anyone pointing what appears to be a weapon at you represents a threat. If there's an apparent gun pointed at you you do not have time to debate with yourself about whether it's real.

mynamejeff

end of the road wrote: »

it was definitely the wrong thing to do. he pulled out a bb gun. differences can easily be told if your of a high standard which other police forces require. the police were completely unjustified in murdering him, so now hopefully they will shove off to another job.

what standerd of training allows you to spot the difference between a bb gun and a live fire arm in the dark in a couple of tenths of a second ?

once again EODR you are talking complete nonsense.

from the second that man reached for a supposed fire arm he was dead . no other armed police force in the world would have reacted differently.

you obviously have some problem with authority or are just a nasty little under bridge dwelling troll

MadDog76

The officers should have searched him immediately upon finding him in the bathroom .......... but wtf was he thinking pulling that out and pointing it at them!!??!! I would have shot him too.

B.A._Baracus

Of course it's sad that a life ended. I mean he did only steal a beer. But he made a very foolish mistake and he ultimately paid for it.

Cops were in the right. But from the looks of it he either (A,) wanted to die or (B,) which is more likely that he just watched one two many movies. Like the way you see someone get the drop on the cops and they throw their guns to the ground. But thats fantasy. This is reality.

mynamejeff

MadDog76 wrote: »

The officers should have searched him immediately upon finding him in the bathroom .......... but wtf was he thinking pulling that out and pointing it at them!!??!! I would have shot him too.

and have him draw the gun in the toilet? on the slippy tiles were there was less room to move and more innocents if he started firing? might be more than on one them in the restaurant . when he pulls it outside the male cop grabs him and throws him away from him and his partner so there's greater separation and less chance of some one else getting hurt. also if you watch them walking him out , one in front one behind. the one in front keeps turning around to keep and eye on him and moves knifes on a table out of reach as he passes.

not a good situation for anyone but the only possible error was the one extra shot the female cop fires however its fairly understandable and excusable in the circumstances.

salamanca22

The officers are 100% in the right here in my opinion. The perp drew what looked like a real firearm and pointed it in the direction of the officers. The officers then made a decision to apply lethal force, the officer drew his gun amazingly fast and if he did not draw as fast as he did and the perp really did have a gun then it was goodnight for the officer.

This is definitely, in my eyes a case of suicide by cop though, the guy was going through a divorce and was homeless sleeping on his brothers couch. He had to have been severely depressed. This way out though is really just so selfish, those cops will now have the emotional strain of having killed a person. They will have to go through therapy and may never be the same again.

Also, that male cop when going through the restaurant, when he moves the cutlery out of reach, what a pro.

Cops have already been found not at fault.

MadDog76

mynamejeff wrote: »

and have him draw the gun in the toilet? on the slippy tiles were there was less room to move and more innocents if he started firing? might be more than on one them in the restaurant . when he pulls it outside the male cop grabs him and throws him away from him and his partner so there's greater separation and less chance of some one else getting hurt. also if you watch them walking him out , one in front one behind. the one in front keeps turning around to keep and eye on him and moves knifes on a table out of reach as he passes.

not a good situation for anyone but the only possible error was the one extra shot the female cop fires however its fairly understandable and excusable in the circumstances.

So it was better to have him walking behind an officer through a crowded restaurant with a loaded handgun which he could have pulled out at any time during his journey from the bathroom to the front door and start blasting away wildly!?!! :rolleyes:

mynamejeff

MadDog76 wrote: »

So it was better to have him walking behind an officer through a crowded restaurant with a loaded handgun which he could have pulled out at any time during his journey from the bathroom to the front door and start blasting away wildly!?!! :rolleyes:

with the officer in front keeping a eye on him (as can plainly be seen) and the female cop directly behind him with her hand on her gun ( given the speed which she draws it at) controlling the environment of the exit (moving the possible weapons. being outside removes the potential for some accomplish or other person interfering with the arrest ( cops aren't popular in america right now). As well as this there is the legal ramifications of searching someone before arrest ,reasonable cause etc that could get the cop in trouble.

hynesie08

end of the road wrote: »

it was definitely the wrong thing to do. he pulled out a bb gun. differences can easily be told if your of a high standard which other police forces require. the police were completely unjustified in murdering him, so now hopefully they will shove off to another job.

Yes there are, when they're on a table in front of you. But how are you supposed to when someone is pulling it on you? "oh I noticed as he raised the gun towards me that the serial number started with ez6, which a real 45 wouldn't..." cop on.

Both officers should be commended for the way they managed to control the situation, not get **** on because they didn't notice the barrel was .37 of an inch shorter than it should be.

Raging_Ninja

MadDog76 wrote: »

So it was better to have him walking behind an officer through a crowded restaurant with a loaded handgun which he could have pulled out at any time during his journey from the bathroom to the front door and start blasting away wildly!?!! :rolleyes:

They mightn't have had probable cause to search him.

SummerRebel

They should have unloaded another clip into him. Total idiot.

MadDog76

mynamejeff wrote: »

with the officer in front keeping a eye on him (as can plainly be seen) and the female cop directly behind him with her hand on her gun ( given the speed which she draws it at) controlling the environment of the exit (moving the possible weapons. being outside removes the potential for some accomplish or other person interfering with the arrest ( cops aren't popular in america right now). As well as this there is the legal ramifications of searching someone before arrest ,reasonable cause etc that could get the cop in trouble.

That's all b******s!

"Keeping an eye on him" while walking in front of him!!!

The truth is, they didn't perceive him as a threat which resulted in him getting the drop on them outside .......... if they had searched him inside the bathroom where he was contained (no where to run like he tried to outside) then he would be alive today ........ he's dead because all three of the individuals involved made bad decisions.

agent graves

their actions were totally justified but fcuk me there was no need for the amount of shots.. they were even unloading into him when he was'nt moving on the ground..

MadDog76

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

They mightn't have had probable cause to search him.

Reasonable grounds to believe he had committed a crime?

They had probable cause ...........

Raging_Ninja

MadDog76 wrote: »

That's all b******s!

"Keeping an eye on him" while walking in front of him!!!

The truth is, they didn't perceive him as a threat which resulted in him getting the drop on them outside .......... if they had searched him inside the bathroom where he was contained (no where to run like he tried to outside) then he would be alive today ........ he's dead because all three of the individuals involved made bad decisions.

They can only search him without a warrant when arresting him. He wasn't under arrest, so searching him would have been a breach of his rights.

http://atkinsonlawoffices.com/uncategorized/when-can-a-police-officer-search-i-e-frisk-me/

The United States Supreme Court has held that a police officer must have additional reasonable articulable suspicion that the individual to be searched is armed with a dangerous weapon and is presently dangerous. In other words, not only must the officer have a reasonable articulable suspicion that the individual is armed with a weapon, but must also have a reasonable articulable suspicion that the individual may use that weapon.

The US Supreme Court struck down the NY stop & frisk policy as unconstitutional.

MadDog76

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

They can only search him without a warrant when arresting him. He wasn't under arrest, so searching him would have been a breach of his rights.

http://atkinsonlawoffices.com/uncategorized/when-can-a-police-officer-search-i-e-frisk-me/



Like how the US Supreme Court struck down the NY stop & frisk policy as unconstitutional.

So you believe the officers actions (which resulted in the death of a petty thief) was the way to go?

Raging_Ninja

MadDog76 wrote: »

So you believe the officers actions (which resulted in the death of a petty thief) was the way to go?

You are expecting them to breach a person's civil rights. It would have invalidated any arrest they made or evidence they collected during the search, and could have cost them their jobs. You can't have it both ways.

They seem to have acted correctly and reasonably, obeying the laws and regulations.

Besides, it was the petty thief's actions which escalated the situation to a shooting. He pulled what looks like a real firearm. He could have just done nothing, and everything would have worked out, but he decided to pull the weapon and point it at them.

frozenfrozen

agent graves wrote: »

their actions were totally justified but fcuk me there was no need for the amount of shots.. they were even unloading into him when he was'nt moving on the ground..

At what point should they have stopped shooting in the video? If we're applying hind sight then the female office shot one extra time. I've said it a good few times on this thread now but the guy was holding the gun up until the second to last shot was fired after which he dropped it and rolled over.

I'm not sure what you mean by unloading into him when he wasn't moving on the ground because the majority of shots were fired while he was still standing facing them and holding the gun up high.

Maybe watch the video a couple more times carefully

hynesie08

MadDog76 wrote: »

So you believe the officers actions (which resulted in the death of a petty thief) was the way to go?

Only one man's actions resulted in his death, and it wasn't the police officers.

mynamejeff

MadDog76 wrote: »

That's all b******s!

"Keeping an eye on him" while walking in front of him!!!

The truth is, they didn't perceive him as a threat which resulted in him getting the drop on them outside .......... if they had searched him inside the bathroom where he was contained (no where to run like he tried to outside) then he would be alive today ........ he's dead because all three of the individuals involved made bad decisions.

did you learn that during your years in SWAT ??:pac::pac:

you did see him walking backwards and keeping looking over his shoulder ?

Why does he move the knifes out of his reach if he didn't think there was a threat from the man ? training perhaps ?

Might be in reality that he didn't fancy getting into a brawl with a unknown man on a slippy toilet floor in unfamiliar conditions with only a female office for back up. If yer man produced a blade instead of a gun the bathroom would have been a nightmare to tackle him in.

Containment has its benefits in some situations however not always. Sometimes distance and separation is better as shown when he shoves he man away and gives himself time and space to draw his weapon.

I agree with you that the situation could have been deescalate and a life saved assuming that the man hadn't decided to suicide by cop.

MadDog76

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

You are expecting them to breach a person's civil rights. It would have invalidated any arrest they made or evidence they collected during the search, and could have cost them their jobs. You can't have it both ways.

Well as long as the officers don't lose their jobs :rolleyes:

MadDog76

hynesie08 wrote: »

Only one man's actions resulted in his death, and it wasn't the police officers.

Not true but if thinking that makes you feel better then by all means

MadDog76

mynamejeff wrote: »

did you learn that during your years in SWAT ??:pac::pac:

you did see him walking backwards and keeping looking over his shoulder ?

Why does he move the knifes out of his reach if he didn't think there was a threat from the man ? training perhaps ?

Might be in reality that he didn't fancy getting into a brawl with a unknown man on a slippy toilet floor in unfamiliar conditions with only a female office for back up. If yer man produced a blade instead of a gun the bathroom would have been a nightmare to tackle him in.

Containment has its benefits in some situations however not always. Sometimes distance and separation is better as shown when he shoves he man away and gives himself time and space to draw his weapon.

I agree with you that the situation would have been deescalate and a life saved assuming that the man hadn't decided to suicide by cop.

So the best possible outcome was achieved by their actions?

mynamejeff

MadDog76 wrote: »

So the best possible outcome was achieved by their actions?

Can you read ? read the last line of my post again.

MadDog76

mynamejeff wrote: »

Can you read ? read the last line of my post again.

So what would you have done differently to de-escalate the situation and avoid such a tragic outcome?

Raging_Ninja

MadDog76 wrote: »

So the best possible outcome was achieved by their actions?

Would you prefer they acted like jackbooted fascist thugs and violated his civil rights?

SummerRebel

MadDog76 wrote: »

So what would you have done differently to de-escalate the situation and avoid such a tragic outcome?

The police should have taken out a daisy and put it down the barrel of his gun. Peace and love man.

hynesie08

MadDog76 wrote: »

Not true but if thinking that makes you feel better then by all means

True, but if thinking otherwise makes you feel better go ahead

MadDog76

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Would you prefer they acted like jackbooted fascist thugs and violated his civil rights?

Meaning he would be alive today to complain about his Civil Rights being violated .......... is that a serious question???

mynamejeff

MadDog76 wrote: »

So what would you have done differently to de-escalate the situation and avoid such a tragic outcome?

Well not having the benefit of police training and years of experience its hard to say but a bit more patience might have helped.

then again i dont know the full circumstances and or history of the situation and the people involved and neither do you.
nor to I or you have first hand experience of this or a similar situation , unless you want to tell me that you do ?

however after the point where the man produce a supposed firearm there wasnt really any other outcome was there ?

MadDog76

SummerRebel wrote: »

The police should have taken out a daisy and put it down the barrel of his gun. Peace and love man.

Did you read my first post on this thread? I'll answer that for you ...... no.

Raging_Ninja

MadDog76 wrote: »

Meaning he would be alive today to complain about his Civil Rights being violated .......... is that a serious question???

You're expecting people to commit crimes "for the greater good"...

MadDog76

mynamejeff wrote: »

Well not having the benefit of police training and years of experience its hard to say but a bit more patience might have helped.

then again i dont know the full circumstances and or history of the situation and the people involved and neither do you.
nor to I or you have first hand experience of this or a similar situation , unless you want to tell me that you do ?

however after the point where the man produce a supposed firearm there wasnt really any other outcome was there ?

I actually do have experience of similar situations but that's neither here nor there for the purpose of this discussion ............. once the suspect pulled the weapon there absolutely was no other outcome possible .......... but I've already stated that........ the question is how/why the officers allowed themselves be in that final situation.

MadDog76

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

You're expecting people to commit crimes "for the greater good"...

And what are your expectations in order to avoid death in similar circumstances in the future .......... or are you happy for this to happen repeatedly?

mynamejeff

MadDog76 wrote: »

I actually do have experience of similar situations but that's neither here nor there for the purpose of this discussion ............. once the suspect pulled the weapon there absolutely was no other outcome possible .......... but I've already stated that........ the question is how/why the officers allowed themselves be in that final situation.

actually this is exactly the place and for the purpose of this discussion, Lets hear you war story Rambo ?

moc moc a moc

SummerRebel wrote: »

They should have unloaded another clip into him. Total idiot.

You don't put "clips" in a pistol, dumbass.

salamanca22

MadDog76 wrote: »

I actually do have experience of similar situations but that's neither here nor there for the purpose of this discussion ............. once the suspect pulled the weapon there absolutely was no other outcome possible .......... but I've already stated that........ the question is how/why the officers allowed themselves be in that final situation.

The officers could not have known that he would pull a firearm, imitation or not. They had no right to search him on the premises without arresting him. To do so would have broken his civil rights which so many people have died to protect over the last few hundred years.

You seem to think the officers should have some sort of algorithmic AI that can calculate the outcome from any situation. Should officers search every person they come in contact with in case they have a firearm on them?

It's a sad situation, but there is no one to blame here but the man himself.

MadDog76

mynamejeff wrote: »

actually this is exactly the place and for the purpose of this discussion, Lets hear you war story Rambo ?

You expect me to engage in adult meaningful discussion on a topic as serious as this whilst sharing my own personal life experiences with an individual, such as yourself, who decides to take on a name-calling/sarcastic slant???

Or would you prefer the expected (and warranted) f**k you reply?

Raging_Ninja

MadDog76 wrote: »

And what are your expectations in order to avoid death in similar circumstances in the future .......... or are you happy for this to happen repeatedly?

Would you prefer that every time police have to interact with the public that they carry out a strip search before talking to them? That seems to be where your line of reasoning is going.

SummerRebel

moc moc a moc wrote: »

You don't put "clips" in a pistol, dumbass.

I didn't say pistol, did I?

mynamejeff

MadDog76 wrote: »

You expect me to engage in adult meaningful discussion on a topic as serious as this whilst sharing my own personal life experiences with an individual, such as yourself, who decides to take on a name-calling/sarcastic slant???

Or would you prefer the expected (and warranted) f**k you reply?

lol Beep Beep Beep is that the sould of MadDog backing up :pac::pac::pac:

scamalert

before watching the video i thought like all the rest here-but after watching it,its clear the guy was unstable,even when he puled out the gun he didn't aim,and once pushed away you could see he didn't have a f^^&ing clue what he was doing himself.

now that not excuse for being retarded on his side,since we wont know what the hell was going in his mind to act so stupid.But all considered officers failed to search him,since usually that would be first priority to do,and officer who had him could of easily taken him down since he was behind him yet tossed him in front of the bitch like an open season.

all things considered the person went on suicide mission,but cop womans reaction was pathetic,to empty whole clip into the guy.

Senna

If the gun was real, would anyone be having this debate?
The guy was a moron who deserved what he got. Police officers arent robots, they have family's and life's outside of their job, once a gun is produced they have the right to shoot that person until they are no longer a threat.

Samaris

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's not gore, or lack of it, that I reacted to. I just find it disquieting to unexpectedly see a person shot, fall over, and their life evaporate.

I've no doubt most people consider such a reaction a bit precious; until now, I didn't think it was unusual to react to a fatal shooting of a human in that way.

I'm with you there, and I don't think it's at all "precious". Seeing someone killed violently -is- awful and it's even more disturbing to not be disturbed by it any more. I've only watched one of those and that was a few months ago and I don't particularly want to see any more.

inforfun

end of the road wrote: »

it was definitely the wrong thing to do. he pulled out a bb gun. differences can easily be told if your of a high standard which other police forces require. the police were completely unjustified in murdering him, so now hopefully they will shove off to another job.

Here... go ahead.

Which is the real one, which is the bb gun?