Overreacting or the right thing to do.

Heckler

http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2015/03/can_you_tell_a_real_gun_from_a.html#0

I shoot and I got most of them wrong and tbh the ones I got right were lucky guesses. Thats taking my time looking at photos. To suggest a police officer in the situation in this thread should have been able to tell the difference is laughable.

MadDog76

mynamejeff wrote: »

lol Beep Beep Beep is that the sould of MadDog backing up :pac::pac::pac:

You have no idea what you're talking about ......... but, in fairness to you, you have admitted that yourself.

MadDog76

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Would you prefer that every time police have to interact with the public that they carry out a strip search before talking to them? That seems to be where your line of reasoning is going.

When dealing with likely suspects I think a quick "I'm going to pat you down for any concealed weapons for your safety and ours" is a reasonable approach.

MadDog76

Senna wrote: »

If the gun was real, would anyone be having this debate?
The guy was a moron who deserved what he got. Police officers arent robots, they have family's and life's outside of their job, once a gun is produced they have the right to shoot that person until they are no longer a threat.

Whether the gun was real or not is irrelevant .......... once the "gun" was produced the outcome was inevitable ........ the debate is, could the officers have taken steps to prevent the situation escalating to the point were deadly force became necessary?

Samaris

MadDog76 wrote: »

When dealing with likely suspects I think a quick "I'm going to pat you down for any concealed weapons for your safety and ours" is a reasonable approach.

Can you imagine the fury that would come from that? "Police can stop and frisk without needing to prove suspicion". There'd be riots.

salamanca22

MadDog76 wrote: »

Whether the gun was real or not is irrelevant .......... once the "gun" was produced the outcome was inevitable ........ the debate is, could the officers have taken steps to prevent the situation escalating to the point were deadly force became necessary?

Yes of course they could have, they could have searched him there and then but would it have been prudent? Not at all, violating ones civil rights is a direct insult to all the souls that died over the years to protect them.

It is unreasonable to expect an officer to search suspects as soon as they come upon them without just cause. When they came upon the man I am sure they did not believe he held a firearm, otherwise they would have searched him.

The man died of his own volition. He pulled a replica weapon on armed police officers and paid the ultimate price for it. He is dead because of his own actions. The police were cleared and are back on duty.

Rory Gallagher

I honestly question the effectiveness of the training in the police force's in the United States.
A police officer should show that they can been a collected, calm mentality in a tense or otherwise aggressive scenario, the police officer in this video would react like any random person handed a gun, and not 'protecting the peace'.

I feel the quality of policing in the US is substandard and the apologists for the actions of incidents such as the one in the OP are mentally deficient.
There should be a greater emphasis placed on training the cops with being able to cope in difficult circumstances, otherwise more unjustified murders will crop up.

hynesie08

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

I honestly question the effectiveness of the training in the police force's in the United States.
A police officer should show that they can been a collected, calm mentality in a tense or otherwise aggressive scenario, the police officer in this video would react like any random person handed a gun, and not 'protecting the peace'.

I feel the quality of policing in the US is substandard and the apologists for the actions of incidents such as the one in the OP are mentally deficient.
There should be a greater emphasis placed on training the cops with being able to cope in difficult circumstances, otherwise more unjustified murders will crop up.

So, How should he have reacted when the guy pulled out the weapon? Because the way they did react potentially saved both their and civilians lives?

Rory Gallagher

hynesie08 wrote: »

So, How should he have reacted when the guy pulled out the weapon? Because the way they did react potentially saved both their and civilians lives?

All this resulted in was the death of one man, just because he's an idiot does not justify his death.
The police in US must now begin to make altercations in the training of their forces.
If either of those officers knew basic CQC and how to handgun disarm then they wouldn't have to resort to the laziest,lowest way to preserve justice, by shooting a man,

They're not qualified, I could dress up in a uniform and shoot when confronted or placed in tension and it'd be fine because the law is obviously on my side(don't kid yourself if you think errors in policing aren't absolved by the law with little repercussion)
I'd expect an officer to have a level headed response in these situations.

MadsL

Interesting how some of the first reactions to this incident present the opportunity for certain posters to post comments about "murika". About as intellectually bright as someone saying "Darby O'Gill" or talking about potatoes when you say you are Irish. Oh ha ha.

I thought as a community we had enough of this silly casual racism and no longer tolerated it, oh wait, only certain nations qualify. I've been away from boards for a while, not sure it has improved.

"Murika" - grow the fuck up people.

challengemaster

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

If either of those officers knew basic CQC and how to handgun disarm then they wouldn't have to resort to the laziest,lowest way to preserve justice, by shooting a man,

Go on back to playing Metal Gear Solid there lad.

salamanca22

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

If either of those officers knew basic CQC and how to handgun disarm then they wouldn't have to resort to the laziest,lowest way to preserve justice, by shooting a man,

You are kidding me right?

There is no 100% effective way to disarm a person. Any person can pull the trigger of a pistol much faster that you can get your hands on their wrist to disarm them, even if you did manage to get your hands on the wrist, in the process of disarming you have changed the trajectory of any bullet that may be fired which can easily end up in an innocent bystander.

Shooting this person was the best choice in the situation.

Rory Gallagher

challengemaster wrote: »

Go on back to playing Metal Gear Solid there lad.

F*ck off back to secondary school with the one liners ... lad.

MadsL

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

F*ck off back to secondary school with the one liners ... lad.

Lol. Said the poster one month out of it.

Rory Gallagher

MadsL wrote: »

Lol. Said the poster one month out of it.

Yes I'm only shortly out of school, that doesn't absolve the other guy from sounding like he'd be at his most adapt in a secondary school environment 'having the bant lad huhuhuh'

punisher5112

It is actually very simple.....

Guy pulls out a gun runs and turns while raising his hand with gun in it.

What an absolute idiot and selfish fool to force the cops to shoot.

Suicide by cop is what it looks like from the footage.

MadsL

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

Yes I'm only shortly out of school, that doesn't absolve the other guy from sounding like he'd be at his most adapt in a secondary school environment 'having the bant lad huhuhuh'

The first poster provided a rational reason why close quarter grabbling with a handgun is ill-advised. You got scolded by another for living in fantasy land. You told him to f*ck off. Posters can draw thier own conclusions.

Care to address the fact that there were two officers here, now as both owe a duty of care to other, this is no place for fancy armlocks.

Rory Gallagher

MadsL wrote: »

The first poster provided a rational reason why close quarter grabbling with a handgun is ill-advised. You got scolded by another for living in fantasy land. You told him to f*ck off. Posters can draw thier own conclusions.

Care to address the fact that there were two officers here, now as both owe a duty of care to other, this is no place for fancy armlocks.

Yes he really excelled in his logic and rationale by telling me to play a video game.Excellent argument tactic right.

Indeed both officers were bound to protect one another, but that's only one element of policing.
They should have been able to apprehend the guy waving the BB gun, not blasted him to death.

If anything the comments that justify his death just show how some people value life initself.

MadsL

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

Yes he really excelled in his logic and rationale by telling me to play a video game.Excellent argument tactic right.

Indeed both officers were bound to protect one another, but that's only one element of policing.
They should have been able to apprehend the guy waving the BB gun, not blasted him to death.

If anything the comments that justify his death just show how some people value life initself.

Describe how they would do that especially without endangering the patrons of the restaurant 5 feet behind them or each other.

"Should" indeed.

triggermortis

Can't see what all the fuss is about. Two cops doing their jobs, idiot challenges their professionalism and loses.

Rory Gallagher

triggermortis wrote: »

Can't see what all the fuss is about. Two cops doing their jobs, idiot challenges their professionalism and loses.

How the **** is there any 'professionalism' in shooting down a man that yields a BB gun?

Regarding MadsL comment, I think that a much more efficient and less animal-like way to for the police to have conducted their business would be, subsequent to apprehending them, would have been to check for weapons or any other material which may prove harmful to either the cops or the customers.

MadsL

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

How the **** is there any 'professionalism' in shooting down a man that yields a BB gun?

Regarding MadsL comment, I think that a much more efficient and less animal-like way to for the police to have conducted their business would be, subsequent to apprehending them, would have been to check for weapons or any other material which may prove harmful to either the cops or the customers.

How? Search him INSIDE the restaurant? Assume the same scenario unfolds. Not good.

The logical place to do that is away from the public.

Any more wishful thinking?

Edit: Anyone who knows anything about firearms assumes that it IS a gun until it is proven NOT to be a gun. I made that mistake a couple of weeks ago, thank god to no consequences.

Canis Lupus

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

How the **** is there any 'professionalism' in shooting down a man that yields a BB gun?

Regarding MadsL comment, I think that a much more efficient and less animal-like way to for the police to have conducted their business would be, subsequent to apprehending them, would have been to check for weapons or any other material which may prove harmful to either the cops or the customers.

How dare they just treat him like a petty shoplifter. I suppose to be safe they should have hogtied him and searched all his cavities.

Rory Gallagher

Canis Lupus wrote: »

How dare they just treat him like a petty shoplifter. I suppose to be safe they should have hogtied him and searched all his cavities.

No, you're right, I was overreacting.

They should have realised he was an idiot, brought him to an S & M dungeon, raped him and shoved a spindle up his hole.
Slowly drag a well sharpened kitchen knife across his throat, commit deviant acts of necrophilia and finally find his family and blow their letterbox up and stuff a lambs heart into his spouses mouth.

Justice muthaphukka! Deter crime for the centuries.

MadsL

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

No, you're right, I was overreacting.

They should have realised he was an idiot, brought him to an S & M dungeon, raped him and shoved a spindle up his hole.
Slowly drag a well sharpened kitchen knife across his throat, commit deviant acts of necrophilia and finally find his family and blow their letterbox up and stuff a lambs heart into his spouses mouth.

Justice muthaphukka! Deter crime for the centuries.

Good way to dodge my question. In case you forgot: Where should this search, even if illegal, have taken place?

bolopapa

jasus!!!...that dude just died!!! is it for real?

pmasterson95

Why do a search? This is Murica. Best to shoot first then ask questions later while labelled a "hero"

MadsL

pmasterson95 wrote: »

This is Murica.

Is your autocorrect set to this?

pmasterson95

MadsL wrote: »

Is your autocorrect set to this?

No its not?

pmasterson95

MadsL wrote: »

Is your autocorrect set to this?

No its not?

MadsL

pmasterson95 wrote: »

No its not?

Wonder why you keep using it then?

pmasterson95

MadsL wrote: »

Wonder why you keep using it then?

Because its is a well know term for when America decides to be utterly braindead and moronic. Give idiots a gun and then wonder why theres shootings? Shoot someone to death to "save" lives? Yep thats Murica logic.

galljga1

triggermortis wrote: »

Can't see what all the fuss is about. Two cops doing their jobs, idiot challenges their professionalism and loses.

Agreed. Given your username, I couldn't but agree.

CruelCoin

kjl wrote: »

I think the guy is a bit of an idiot, but did he deserve to die? I don't think so.

Was he a thief? Yes?

Maybe he didn't deserve to die, but i don't think the world has lost anything here.

Rory Gallagher

CruelCoin wrote: »

Was he a thief? Yes?

Maybe he didn't deserve to die, but i don't think the world has lost anything here.

Maybe a grain of integrity and a sense of justice?

MadsL

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Because its is a well know term for when America decides to be utterly braindead and moronic. Give idiots a gun and then wonder why theres shootings? Shoot someone to death to "save" lives? Yep thats Murica logic.

OK. Logic.

What actions would you suggest these officers failed to take? Which ones were "braindead and moronic"?

Perhaps rather than repeatedly spouting meaningless and entirely inappropiate memes, you could post your insights. I mean if you can. But maybe you just prefer insults.

MadsL

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

Maybe a grain of integrity and a sense of justice?

Are you still struggling with my question? Where is this search or "CQC" happening in your armchair analysis of this incident?

Still waiting.....

Jeez the poor guy. RIP

In my opinion it looks like suicide. I also think the guy looks a bit "funny" as in not the full ticket....based on his facial expressions at the beginning of the clip.

I think everyone in the US knows that if you pull a gun when questioned by police you will get shot. Surely the guy knew this too.

Being honest, if I was in either officer's shoes I'd have responded the same way. It could just as easily been a real gun which lets face it has happened to officers there before.

MadsL

Watch 0.47 onwards in slowmotion on youtube. [settings]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSiqfM2GR4E

The guy holds the gun out in his right hand whilst the male officer is behind him and the female officer is on his left. The male officer attempts to control the gun hand but the guy moves it out of his reach, then the male officer grabs him by the back of the neck and swings him away (presumably to try to put him on the ground) The guy then turns around and POINTS the gun at the officer.

CQC my arse. They only have one choice at this point.

CruelCoin

Oh wow, i just spotted (0:45) that his cap says "Walking Dead". :pac:

CruelCoin

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

Maybe a grain of integrity and a sense of justice?

Should i feel sorry for thieves? Perhaps you'd like to be the first to leave the front door open tonight for the poor lambs.

What perceived lack of justice are you on about? He pulled a gun (bb/fake/whatever)..

Look at the video. There is a very simple rule about firearms: "never pass the barrel over anything you don't intend to destroy". At 0:48 he waves the gun at the police. At 0:51 he turns around and points it at the other officer. The only reason why he stops doing so is when he flinches from the first bullet at 0:52.

The police were absolutely correct to shoot him, given the above timeline.

Do you have any idea what a bb gun feels like? They are heavy, and the new ones are made of a full metal body and look very, very real. There was no way that the police could have recognised this. Short of pulling the clip out, you wouldn't know.

Rory Gallagher

MadsL wrote: »

Watch 0.47 onwards in slowmotion on youtube. [settings]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSiqfM2GR4E

The guy holds the gun out in his right hand whilst the male officer is behind him and the female officer is on his left. The male officer attempts to control the gun hand but the guy moves it out of his reach, then the male officer grabs him by the back of the neck and swings him away (presumably to try to put him on the ground) The guy then turns around and POINTS the gun at the officer.

CQC my arse. They only have one choice at this point.

Hmm, I have no political agenda so I have an objective look in this.
I've taken a look at it in slow motion as per thou suggestion and if you go to 0:44 they could have simply asked for a check(as you rightly put it, it would have been cumbersome and potentially dangerous if done so in the restaurant) and found the weapon,observed it and found out what the man's intentions were.Also, it would have meant he'd still be alive.
Now I'm fully aware that what I'm saying is given with the benefit of hindsight but any halfway decent police officer would have made sure that any danger element would be eliminated immediately.

Now if they were much more adapt at combat in a close quarters situation then this would have aided them greatly I reckon.
Look at how the female officer is tugging at his shirt! she is pulling down at his shirt whilst the male officer makes a haphazard attempt to physically apprehend him before throwing him and shooting him down.
If police had greater training in CQC and psychological training then a mess like this could be avoided.
I'm adamant that this man's death is unjustifiable.

Canis Lupus

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

Now if they were much more adapt at combat in a close quarters situation then this would have aided them greatly I reckon.
Look at how the female officer is tugging at his shirt! she is pulling down at his shirt whilst the male officer makes a haphazard attempt to physically apprehend him before throwing him and shooting him down.
If police had greater training in CQC and psychological training then a mess like this could be avoided.
I'm adamant that this man's death is unjustifiable.

I think you've watched too many Steven Seagal movies....

punisher5112

Sure why don't the cops ask to see any weapon real or fake so they can see for themselves before the absolute lunatic kills them and leaves there family without a father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter.

Cops have a terribly difficult job to do and glad these had body cams to show what actually happened.

I would hope if they were given the same situation it would end the same way as this guy was a robber and god knows what else.

Don't pull a weapon don't get shot its actually quite simple.

MadsL

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

Hmm, I have no political agenda so I have an objective look in this.
I've taken a look at it in slow motion as per thou suggestion and if you go to 0:44 they could have simply asked for a check(as you rightly put it, it would have been cumbersome and potentially dangerous if done so in the restaurant) and found the weapon,observed it and found out what the man's intentions were.Also, it would have meant he'd still be alive.
Now I'm fully aware that what I'm saying is given with the benefit of hindsight but any halfway decent police officer would have made sure that any danger element would be eliminated immediately.

Now if they were much more adapt at combat in a close quarters situation then this would have aided them greatly I reckon.
Look at how the female officer is tugging at his shirt! she is pulling down at his shirt whilst the male officer makes a haphazard attempt to physically apprehend him before throwing him and shooting him down.
If police had greater training in CQC and psychological training then a mess like this could be avoided.
I'm adamant that this man's death is unjustifiable.

He points the gun at officers twice, and the female officer tries to taser him before realising that he is on the ground within reach of his gun that is still in his hand towards her. That's why she fires three shots.

Given the body positions of all three, CQC is impossible. Had the guy gone to the ground when the male officer tackles him, he would still be alive. But things don't always go to plan - especially with split second reaction times.

A search IN the restaurant would simply be dangerous for staff, patrons and the officers. Too many distractions and steak knives around!! You don't know if he has a buddy sitting at a table. Taking him outside is the correct move, as the female office reinforces.

Being a cop in the US is dangerous enough, without bull**** expectations of martial arts style grappling.

CruelCoin

Rory Gallagher wrote: »

If police had greater training in CQC and psychological training then a mess like this could be avoided.

Train them like ninjas and we'd get these for ban-gardai.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/t4bwezAizezexvhvh9OkfAKJo1_500.jpg

Yes please! :pac:

MadsL

CruelCoin wrote: »

Train them like ninjas and we'd get these for ban-gardai.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/t4bwezAizezexvhvh9OkfAKJo1_500.jpg

Yes please! :pac:

Hijab porn?

Rory Gallagher

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I think you've watched too many Steven Seagal movies....

I can assure you I've never watched a Steven Seagal film before.
I can also remind you that at this hour in the morning, very few people are like to give a **** about your pitiful attempt at wit and humour.

A search IN the restaurant would simply be dangerous for staff, patrons and the officers. Too many distractions and steak knives around!! You don't know if he has a buddy sitting at a table. Taking him outside is the correct move, as the female office reinforces.

Being a cop in the US is dangerous enough, without bull**** expectations of martial arts style grappling.

If being a police officer in the US is considered highly dangerous then that demands expectation, it demands the need for the training system there to be supplemented with face to face combat(when needed, of course there are still going to be shootings, I know I'm young but I'm not that idealistic) and also psychological aspects are to be given a greater examination to ensure that every single officer remains level headed whilst out performing his duty.

inforfun

Will not be long before the Netherlands have an incident like this. (thought there was already a few years ago but cant find anything about it)
There have been several people shot by the police already when they showed, what later appeared to be a bb gun.
Difference is that all these people were not close to police men or innocent bystanders and not really threatening with the gun, just showing.
A bit like that idiot in january did on Dutch national tv.

Only last month some fool walked into a police station in Rotterdam, saying he had a gun in his trousers. He only lifted his shirt and didnt grab it.
But i guarantee you if he had taken the gun out he would have ended up like the guy in the OP.

What else do you expect when you point something that really looks like a deadly weapon at an armed police officer?
Tea with a cookie?

CruelCoin

MadsL wrote: »

Hijab porn?

Excuse me, thats a ninja mask :mad:

(anyway, she's fully clothed, moving on)