Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 - Mod Post in OP 23/07

RobertKK

But would you want to be smelling Rooney's socks, compared to Rafael's? Rafael would win as he wouldn't be playing so less likely to be sweaty.
That is all I have to add on the Rooney debate.

Cookiemunster

Tugboats wrote: »

That would make him the 3rd top scorer in Spain and 1st in Germany. Why were no clubs in these leagues interested in him when it looked like he was available?

Because they didn't need him at the time? Just because a player is available doesn't mean that everyone tries to buy him.

bucketybuck

Coat22 wrote: »

This tells me (although doubtless I'm wrong) that if United are to win things then they have needed someone else leading the line with Rooney making his contribution playing behind the main striker.

And why does your logic dismiss the idea that if United are to win things they needed Rooney leading the line with somebody else making a contribution playing behind the main striker?

Tugboats

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Because they didn't need him at the time? Just because a player is available doesn't mean that everyone tries to buy him.

Nonsense. If a player can score 25 goals per season with ease there will be interest

Alf Veedersane

Coat22 wrote: »

I posted something last week which showed that only once in his United career did he finish top scorer and United won the league (the year him and Ronaldo bagged 34 each)

This tells me (although doubtless I'm wrong) that if United are to win things then they have needed someone else leading the line with Rooney making his contribution playing behind the main striker.

By that logic, Alan Shearer should have played behind a main striker.

Coat22

The Rooney love does get personal on here.

Don't think anyone doubts his class or ability or that the £25M spent on him was a snip or that he's been great for United.

I think what some people (such as me) doubt is whether he can be relied upon to get us 20+ goals in a season. He's only done this 3 time in his career so its a very valid argument. Yes he's been asked to do other stuff and yes he's been messed around but 20 goals from a player of his ability should be something he gets every season regardless of whether he spent a few big European games out on the wing or not. Mata got 10 in 35 last season without playing upfront - Rooney should be well capable of hitting 20 consistently.

pmasterson95

Tugboats wrote: »

Nonsense. If a player can score 25 goals per season with ease there will be interest

Like Afonso Alves is it?

Nalz

Mason Holgate???

The Moldy Gowl

Rooney has probably cost the club about 150 million if you want to include transfer and wages and Christmas bonuses.
Surprised no one brought that up.

bangkok

Tugboats wrote: »

Nonsense. If a player can score 25 goals per season with ease there will be interest

no club in Germany could afford rooney.

Barcelona don't need him and neither did Madrid as they already had players who could score 25 goals with ease. No other club in spain could afford him

Maximus Alexander

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Rooney has probably cost the club about 150 million if you want to include transfer and wages and Christmas bonuses.
Surprised no one brought that up.

Isn't that only about half of what Falcao cost last season?

Alf Veedersane

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Rooney has probably cost the club about 150 million if you want to include transfer and wages and Christmas bonuses.
Surprised no one brought that up.

Probably some expensive background PR after Granny Gate as well.

The Moldy Gowl

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Isn't that only about half of what Falcao cost last season?

True.
The incompetence of the club led to an embarrassing moment as ed signed of on falcaos wages of 265 million a week.

The incompetent boss of the most embarrassing club added a few zeros thinking they added no value

Adamocovic

adox wrote: »

While disappointment may not be the correct word, there is no doubt in my mind that Rooney never reached his full potential. I``m not talking about a 17 year old kid that burst onto the scene and was over hyped. Im talking about a player who, in his early to mid 20s had a season or two where he was being debated alongside Ronaldo and Messi as the best player on the planet. He never sustained that and has fallen back down the pecking order since.

Rooney had all the tools and talent to go on and become one of the greats. I always thought his natural position was a no 10 or at least in a deeper role in a 2 man strike force. He had physicality, pace, vision and a great range of passing and also had a great engine and work rate on him. He had imo the potential to be one of the great players of all time and of those high standards he has fallen short.

He will still go on to become Utds all time goal scorer but there is no doubt in my mind that he just hasnt lived up to his real potential and I dont think that is in any way an outrageous view to hold.

Well disappointed means to be sad or displeased that someone or something did not meet expectations or potential.

Maybe people aren't disappointed in his career but when they post complaining that he didn't reach his potential that to me certainly indicates they wre disappointed.

Something I find a bit daft. Despite how much better people feel he was capable of being it does not take away from the fact that he is and has been on of the best players for our club and will go down a complete legend.

Because Rooney didn't reach the same level of Ronaldo or Messi who are easily two of the greatest footballers of all time and will always be up there with the likes of Maradona and Pele, doesn't mean he deserves the criticism he gets at times in my view.

With all the good he has done for us and continues to people bring up his potential saying he should have been better, he has been brilliant still and to criticise him and suggest disappointment is strange.

I can imagine in 10-20 years talking about Rooney and it will sound something like
"Dad what was Rooney like as a player?"
"Ah yeah son he is Man Uniteds top scorer, captain us and won a rake of trophies for himself and us and was a heavily important part of his team...but he never lived up to his potential compared to Ronaldo or Messi"

To me that sounds crazy and realistic as to what some people will say, when in terms of his own achievements and contribution to our club he has been outstanding, I wonder if he played during a period where Ronaldo or Messi weren't around would people change their opinions of him underachieving.

If you threw those two into any period of football no doubt they would overshadow (statistically) some of the strikers we now consider greats, to criticise Rooney and question his desire because he isn't at the level or Ronaldo and Messi is ridiculous in my eyes considering not many footballers in the history of the sport would be at their level!

Tugboats

bangkok wrote: »

no club in Germany could afford rooney.

Barcelona don't need him and neither did Madrid as they already had players who could score 25 goals with ease. No other club in spain could afford him

When Rooney was available Benzama failed to score 25 goals. Even now Barca and Real forwards apart from Messi and Ronaldo struggle to score 25 goals. Should Bayern not try and break the bank and wage structure to get Rooney? They struggle to hit targets that Rooney could do with ease. They could give us cash + Muller or Lewandowski. I'm sure a deal could be done

Rossi IRL

Trilla wrote: »

Mason Holgate???

young english center back from barnsley

twinex

World class Rooney= fire in his belly
Present day Rooney= curry chip in his belly

Seriously though I believe that's all that's missing from Rooneys game. His touch, pace, range of passing and physical condition look good. he just needs to take off those comfortable pair of slippers......

The Moldy Gowl

twinex wrote: »

World class Rooney= fire in his belly
Present day Rooney= curry chip in his belly

Seriously though I believe that's all that's missing from Rooneys game. His touch, pace, range of passing and physical condition look good. he just needs to take off those comfortable pair of slippers......

Top lad banter

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Which is exactly the reasoning I was using to justify a potential move for Ings, for example. To fulfil the role he is likely going to have at Liverpool now.

Its also why I reckon a player who can play the wide role or through the centre (Muller, Bale, Ronaldo) is who the club really wants - whether they can get them or not.

I was actually quietly touting Ings. A name many would feel is below our calibre, but felt he would be a player happy to wait in the wings for a bit learning his trade at a higher level, great experience and quality around him, and gently coming into the fold. If he was good enough then bang we have a prime, English striker ready to go, if not, it was relatively low risk.

but all this stuff about Cavani, Benzema, Lacazzete etc is nonsense. No striker of quality is coming to United where it's blatantly obvious (before Guardians fluffer pieces of last week) that Rooney is number one and any incoming striker will be playing second fiddle.

Adamocovic

Coat22 wrote: »

The Rooney love does get personal on here.

Don't think anyone doubts his class or ability or that the £25M spent on him was a snip or that he's been great for United.

I think what some people (such as me) doubt is whether he can be relied upon to get us 20+ goals in a season. He's only done this 3 time in his career so its a very valid argument. Yes he's been asked to do other stuff and yes he's been messed around but 20 goals from a player of his ability should be something he gets every season regardless of whether he spent a few big European games out on the wing or not. Mata got 10 in 35 last season without playing upfront - Rooney should be well capable of hitting 20 consistently.

Ah now, don't bring out the "<Insert player> name love" sort of argument.
His class and ability have been questioned here many times, and will be again.

People constantly question his ability to get 20+ goals, his dribbling ability, control, ability to play as a striker. A lot of people don't rate him as a top striker or goalscorer.

The Rooney debate will always go on and of course opinions will be divided into people who think he could have been better, people who were/are satisfied with his contribution and then people who don't rate him as a top striker. And I'm sure most already now where I stand so I think I'll try move on

UnitedIrishman

So a lot of what peoples gripes about are that he didn't fulfil his ability like Messi or Ronaldo did - you're talking about the best two players to play the game. Not every player can develop like they did. It's just not possible between genetics and a whole load of different other parameters.

Using his goalscoring record against him is completely nonsensical. When he's up front, he scores. When he plays off the striker or on the wing or in midfield then obviously his record will not be as prolific.

Has Rooney fulfilled the potential of say comparable players like the abilities of Raul or Totti - I would say yes, most definitely and he still has a lot of time to play. Both exceptional footballers at the highest level and club legends. Just because he wasn't Ronnie or Messi, that shouldn't detract from what he has done and will continue to do.

Maximus Alexander

TheDoc wrote: »

I was actually quietly touting Ings. A name many would feel is below our calibre, but felt he would be a player happy to wait in the wings

Ah here, last thing we need to to sign another striker and play him out in the wings :pac:

Adamocovic

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Rooney has probably cost the club about 150 million if you want to include transfer and wages and Christmas bonuses.
Surprised no one brought that up.

Wonder how much he has contributed in terms of goals, awards, jersey sales and media

bangkok

Tugboats wrote: »

When Rooney was available Benzama failed to score 25 goals. Even now Barca and Real forwards apart from Messi and Ronaldo struggle to score 25 goals. Should Bayern not try and break the bank and wage structure to get Rooney? They struggle to hit targets that Rooney could do with ease. They could give us cash + Muller or Lewandowski. I'm sure a deal could be done

what part of they don't need him do you not get?

Barca have their system, messi suarez neymar, all to suit messi. It works, they won everything last year, why would they need rooney?

Real Madrid have Ronaldo, Bale, Rodriguez, Benzema, they all score bag loads of goals, they don't need rooney.

Why would Bayern smash their wage structure to sign rooney when they don't need him? they nearly always win the league and are always competing for champ league.

"They could give us cash + Muller or Lewandowski. I'm sure a deal could be done"

Not sure if you were serious on that one

Tugboats

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Just because he wasn't Ronnie or Messi, that shouldn't detract from what he has done and will continue to do.

What do you think he will continue to do?

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

He will still go on to become Utds all time goal scorer but there is no doubt in my mind that he just hasnt lived up to his real potential and I dont think that is in any way an outrageous view to hold.

I don't think that is being viewed as outragous. It's a view shared by everyone, and to be honest it's probably the only view to have, there is no alternative.

I think however the debating point is that this disappointment being skewered into labelling Rooney a failure, or not good enough for United.

People saying Rooney is not good enough, or cant lead a line in a title winning team, is a massive twist and distortion of someones annoyance at how Rooney isn't the worlds greatest striker.

Bangkok was somewhat right. If Rooney played elsewhere, we would be ooing and ahhing a lot of the time. but because he is with us, we scrutinise him more. Probably also aided by his two contract ransoms where fans will look for any excuse to critique.

I'd share your view that Rooney didn't live up to his initial potential. And a large part of the blame needs to go on Ferguson for that. But then we are also expressing disappointment at something that rarely happens, someone harnessing their REAL potential and power. It's rare enough if we think about it.

What would a Rooney, who harnessed his full potential and power look like? In my head, probably someone scoring 30-40 goals a season, destroying defences, frequent balon dor nominee, and would have shattered the records a few seasons ago.

But when I think about what I envision Rooney "should be", I then realise that it's a bit of an unfair assessment and pressure to lay at his feet. We essentially expected him to become one of the greatest strikers of all time, if we are honest about what we expected from him. Which maybe from the get go, was an unrealistic expectation on our part.

UnitedIrishman

Tugboats wrote: »

What do you think he will continue to do?

Work hard, score goals, provide for the wingers, perform up front.

What do you expect him to do - unicycle on a tight rope?

Adamocovic

Tugboats wrote: »

What do you think he will continue to do?

I imagine he will continue to be a hugely important part of our team and his performances will heavily affect whether we are successful or not.

Tugboats

bangkok wrote: »

"They could give us cash + Muller or Lewandowski. I'm sure a deal could be done"

Not sure if you were serious on that one

It's worth a try. Rooney can do things with ease that they can't do in Germany

pmasterson95

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Work hard, score goals, provide for the wingers, perform up front.

What do you expect him to do - unicycle on a tight rope?

At the very least Rooney should be blindfolded and the rope on fire.

Adamocovic

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't think that is being viewed as outragous. It's a view shared by everyone, and to be honest it's probably the only view to have, there is no alternative.

I think however the debating point is that this disappointment being skewered into labelling Rooney a failure, or not good enough for United.

People saying Rooney is not good enough, or cant lead a line in a title winning team, is a massive twist and distortion of someones annoyance at how Rooney isn't the worlds greatest striker.

Bangkok was somewhat right. If Rooney played elsewhere, we would be ooing and ahhing a lot of the time. but because he is with us, we scrutinise him more. Probably also aided by his two contract ransoms where fans will look for any excuse to critique.

I'd share your view that Rooney didn't live up to his initial potential. And a large part of the blame needs to go on Ferguson for that. But then we are also expressing disappointment at something that rarely happens, someone harnessing their REAL potential and power. It's rare enough if we think about it.

What would a Rooney, who harnessed his full potential and power look like? In my head, probably someone scoring 30-40 goals a season, destroying defences, frequent balon dor nominee, and would have shattered the records a few seasons ago.

But when I think about what I envision Rooney "should be", I then realise that it's a bit of an unfair assessment and pressure to lay at his feet. We essentially expected him to become one of the greatest strikers of all time, if we are honest about what we expected from him. Which maybe from the get go, was an unrealistic expectation on our part.

Probably the fairest and most accurate description of the whole Rooney thing. Great post.

pmasterson95

Tugboats wrote: »

It's worth a try. Rooney can do things with ease that they can't do in Germany

I dont get this at all. What are you even trying to make up now?

TheDoc

Tugboats wrote: »

Nonsense. If a player can score 25 goals per season with ease there will be interest

At the times in question, none of the big clubs really needed a new striker.

With the transfer fee and the wage demands Rooney would command, it wasn't exactly something that was enticing to clubs immediately.

Numerous clubs made the soundings out, Mourinho being a little tease in the press. But Madrid, Barca and Bayern, the only three conceivable clubs that Rooney could move to and not step down, had no issues with scoring goals, and investment was best placed elsewhere.

Barca had Pedro, villa and Messi blasting in the goals, and an extravagant moved for Rooney made no sense. Madrid had Benzema operating in a lone striker role, and doing it well, for Mourinho.

Chelsea were in dire need of a striker, but United were not going to sell to Chelsea. And they weren't going to sell to City either. The only viable moves for Rooney were domestically, which United were going to ensure didn't happen.

Coat22

Soooo.......anyway.......United have bid €100MM for Mueller - seems a bit nuts. Really like him but he's hardly worth that or is he? And I think he's too similar to Rooney in style of play - couldn't see both playing together.

Cookiemunster

Tugboats wrote: »

It's worth a try. Rooney can do things with ease that they can't do in Germany

Doc never said that. He said Rooney would easily score 25 goals in those leagues, not that nobody else could do it. But I suppose the facts don't suit your argument/agenda.

stephenl15

Coat22 wrote: »

Soooo.......anyway.......United have bid €100MM for Mueller - seems a bit nuts. Really like him but he's hardly worth that or is he? And I think he's too similar to Rooney in style of play - couldn't see both playing together.

The future all time record goalscorer in World cups :P

Nalz

Rossi IRL wrote: »

young english center back from barnsley

We're signing him apparently

Tugboats

pmasterson95 wrote: »

I dont get this at all. What are you even trying to make up now?

TheDoc said Rooney would score 25 goals in the German league with ease. Muller and Lewandowski struggle to do that. Do you not think we should open dialogue with Bayern and work out a deal?

Lord TSC

Coat22 wrote: »

Soooo.......anyway.......United have bid €100MM for Mueller - seems a bit nuts. Really like him but he's hardly worth that or is he? And I think he's too similar to Rooney in style of play - couldn't see both playing together.

Tbh, we've an abundance of money. If LVG wants him and sees him as a key player going forward, then "worth" becomes entirely relative....

pmasterson95

Tugboats Jason Byrne has scored more LOI goals with ease than Rooney has.

Does that mean we should sign Jason Byrne?

PhlegmyMoses

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

True.
The incompetence of the club led to an embarrassing moment as ed signed of on falcaos wages of 265 million a week.

The incompetent boss of the most embarrassing club added a few zeros thinking they added no value

It was even worse when we paid Monaco 50m to sign Falcao last summer and did a loan deal to make the money go into this year's accounts. Then Monaco were still able to loan him to Chelsea this year. So embarrassing. We're terrible at doing deals.

The_Kew_Tour

In fairness we have got 4 very good players for 50m. We have improved in there

Coat22

Lord TSC wrote: »

Tbh, we've an abundance of money. If LVG wants him and sees him as a key player going forward, then "worth" becomes entirely relative....

True (and if ADM Goes all the more so) atill wouldn't have struck me as a player in that price bracket (although along with Schweinsteiger is one we should have broke the bank for years ago)

....as you say its all relative - I swap you 3 Bentekes for your Mueller

pmasterson95

Tugboats wrote: »

TheDoc said Rooney would score 25 goals in the German league with ease. Muller and Lewandowski struggle to do that. Do you not think we should open dialogue with Bayern and work out a deal?

Well considering TheDoc never actually said that in this thread this is moot. You'll have to ask TheDoc that you are hearing in your brain that question. Unfortunately you seem to have become lost in the realm between reality and dreams. That scenario has only happened in your head not reality.

bangkok

Rooney was never going to be a Ronaldo or a Messi though.



Rooney was brought up in Croxteth, probably a poor upbringing, cant imagine his diet as a kid was good, probably a lot of oven/fried food and plenty of chips no doubt. he struggles with his weight. Came back one summer over weight and was quickly sent over to America to get fit. Likes his beer and the odd cigarette.



Ronaldo doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, loves his body, loves the gym. messi I presume is the same



but the fact rooney has gone on to do what he has done deserves respect.



Probably the most naturally gifted English player of the last 30 years.



soon to be the highest scorer in Manchester United and Englands history.



Won everything in the game, still has the same appetite for the game. He has hunger, desire, wants to win at everything, gets sent off the odd time for stupid things but his desire is infectious.



If he plays up front this season and remains injury free I have no doubt he will score 20+ goals this season

Rayne Wooney

It's hard to judge Rooney as a CF when he hasn't played a season there in 4 years and he scored 27 goals that season

His goal record from further back since then indicates he would still score north of 20 goals played up front

Tugboats

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Tugboats Jason Byrne has scored more LOI goals with ease than Rooney has.

Does that mean we should sign Jason Byrne?

What are you talking about? According to some here we have a player who could improve Bayern. He would score more goals than Muller and Lewandowski. If this is true we should explore the possibility of a deal

Adamocovic

Wheeeh, got that out of my system anyway.

Now that the big player debate of the day seems to be winding to an end :pac: time to move on...

What was the game like today? Got up to watch it before work and fell back asleep within the first 10 minutes! By the time I woke up there were a few minutes left but I had to rush to get ready for work (I was planning to do so during half time :P)

How'd all the new boys do? Also heard Pereira did well, I know a lot of us were tipping him and Lingard to be the two young players to make a push for first team this season, sounds like Pereira is on the right track

Maximus Alexander

Tugboats wrote: »

What are you talking about? According to some here we have a player who could improve Bayern. He would score more goals than Muller and Lewandowski. If this is true we should explore the possibility of a deal

Why? We want to keep him.

Adamocovic

bangkok wrote: »

Rooney was brought up in Croxteth, probably a poor upbringing, cant imagine his diet as a kid was good, probably a lot of oven/fried food and plenty of chips no doubt.

I don't care if it is serious or not but that sentence alone attracted the attention of my surrounding colleagues from me just laughing to myself.

I mean I've read it a few times, and I shouldn't, but I can't stop laughing at it. The "no doubt" makes it haha :pac::pac: