Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 - Mod Post in OP 23/07

kippy

Tugboats wrote: »

I have no interest in the excuses about injuries, suspensions or being played out of position. He scores 20PL goals or he doesnt

They are not excuses.
You can't expect him to score the same number of goals as players who play in closer to the goal more consistently than he does/did.

He'll score 20+ if played up front consistently.

Mitch Connor

JamboMac wrote: »

I see that out position excuse as no real argument.

But this is just insane. While I think RVN and Aguero are more deadly strikers than him - to suggest playing in midfield or out wide, or primarily in a creative and defensive role should have no effect on your scoring stats is just insane.

You think if Aguero played right back he would get as many goals?

Tugboats

kippy wrote: »

They are not excuses.
You can't expect him to score the same number of goals as players who play in closer to the goal more consistently than he does/did.

He'll score 20+ if played up front consistently.

I have already taken a bet about Rooney and 20 goals with another poster that has no clauses. I'm not having a debate all season about the bet being off because Rooney played in a different position against Norwich

PhlegmyMoses

Tugboats wrote: »

18-20 goals in a title winning team i would be happy. Im not as demanding as most fans on here. We will have goals coming from others on the pitch so we don't need one man to score all the goals. Sadly Rooney wont contribute his fair share so we should be looking elsewhere

He scored 12 last year in what looks like a worse team with minimum a 3rd of his games in midfield. He only needs to do 6 more for you to be happy. I'm confident he'll do that this year if he is played up top.

KombuchaMshroom

Tugboats wrote: »

I have no interest in the excuses about injuries, suspensions or being played out of position. He scores 20PL goals or he doesnt

So Rooney breaks his leg tomorrow and all of a sudden you are proven right for the coming season?

Maximus Alexander

If Rooney plays 38 PL games here there's pretty much no doubt he'd score 20+.



He probably won't play 38 games there though, because he never does.

What a stupid, exhausting discussion.

Tugboats

KombuchaMshroom wrote: »

So Rooney breaks his leg tomorrow and all of a sudden you are proven right for the coming season?

do you get your top goalscorer money back from a bookie if a player only plays 10 games?

bangkok

also regarding aguero v rooney and by the way aguero is my favourite non Utd player in the league, but Aguero struggles playing up top by himself. You only ever see aguero excel when he has a strike partner..dzeko. One of the reasons city also signed Bony

Rooney is a much better lone striker than aguero is, in fact he is probably one of the best in the world playing the lone striking position

py2006

Jesus can we get over Rooney for now. Lets all assume he is crap so then we call get to enjoy a good season from him.

Now lets get back to the signings we have so far and dream of the potential future ones....

Pro. F

Tugboats wrote: »

18-20 goals in a title winning team i would be happy. Im not as demanding as most fans on here. We will have goals coming from others on the pitch so we don't need one man to score all the goals. Sadly Rooney wont contribute his fair share so we should be looking elsewhere

Again, that is not what I asked you. I asked "What is your range of acceptable goal return for a first choice striker at a team looking to win the EPL?" but you answered regarding a title winning team. That gives you the room to subsequently argue that Rooney was the problem if he "only" scores 18 goals but the team don't win the title.

The way you have couched your argument the only way you can be proven wrong is if Rooney scores 18+ goals and United win the title. But winning the title obviously comes down to a lot more than whether or not your CF scored enough goals.

kippy

Tugboats wrote: »

I have already taken a bet about Rooney and 20 goals with another poster that has no clauses. I'm not having a debate all season about the bet being off because Rooney played in a different position against Norwich

I am speaking PAST TENSE, in that the comparisons with Ruud, RVP,Aguero over the years are not in any way fair based on where Rooney has been asked to play.

As I said, if he is going to be played up top (which based on facts available so far, he should be) then he will score 20+ goals.

bangkok

Tugboats wrote: »

do you get your top goalscorer money back from a bookie if a player only plays 10 games?

no.

Sure Messi or Ronaldo could score 25 goals in 10 games!!

Adamocovic

keane2097 wrote: »

If someone went to the trouble of verifying Rooney's goals per minute ratio when playing up front I'd be shocked if his number wasn't at least comparable to the likes of Aguerro & RVP.

If you don't rate Rooney I feel bad for you son.

Trying to stay out of it as was involved yesterday but using whoscored.com history and search engine you can show his stats based on position.

Sadly only from 2009/2010 season onwards. I selected FW as the position, total goals, goal situations, player ratings and total appearances as the stats.
After removing England and European Competition (can add if wanted but only including PL) it reads as:

From 2009/2010- PL Record

Total Stats:
183 appearances and 105 goals. *Goal ratio: 1.74

Just FW/ST appearancs:
104 appearances and 74 goals. Goal ratio: 1.41

Other position appearances (midfield):
79 appearances and 31 goals. Goal ratio: 2.55

As for assists:

Total Assists:
43 assists, assist ratio of 4.26

FW/ST:
20 assists, assist ratio of 5.20

Other Positions (midfield):
23 assists, assist ratio of 3.43

Now I shall duck my head, I like stats and am just supplying them. (Could be slight mistakes but generally whoscored.com is very good for detailed stats) I know more detailed stats into more amount of games is prefered but the database only goes back as far as 2009/2010

*goal ratio refering to how many games per goal

source for stats: http://www.whoscored.com/Players/3859/History/Wayne-Rooney

EDIT: Also based on past stats better than RVN and Agueros ratios but I do not know how many games they played only at FW/ST and the stats for Rooney is only for 2009 onwards

Adamocovic

Tugboats wrote: »

I have no interest in the excuses about injuries, suspensions or being played out of position. He scores 20PL goals or he doesnt

Surely if he got injured and is out for a lengthy time the bet would be void :P

I'd like to bet on it but if you cant agree with the minimum amount of games he has to play to count towards the bet then i'm out, football is a game where he could be injured in the first month and out for some time. Saying that he has never played less than 27 but a bet without rules and conditions is not a smart bet

EDIT: Also said nothing about his position, just 27 games minimum. But fair enough. Just thought be fun

Tugboats

Pro. F wrote: »

Again, that is not what I asked you. I asked "What is your range of acceptable goal return for a first choice striker at a team looking to win the EPL?" but you answered regarding a title winning team. That gives you the room to subsequently argue that Rooney was the problem if he "only" scores 18 goals but the team don't win the title.

The way you have couched your argument the only way you can be proven wrong is if Rooney scores 18+ goals and United win the title. But winning the title obviously comes down to a lot more than whether or not your CF scored enough goals.

sorry thought you said title winning team not looking to win it. 18-20 is still my answer anyway. I think Rooney himself has set a target of 20. He wont achieve it this season or any season we're stuck with him. He may do it in the MLS if he goes

Adamocovic

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Make it 16/17 sure 15/16 will be over

Yeah don't mind (could have saved some money in the sales..dammit:pac:)

bangkok

"Sometimes you look in a field and you see a cow and you think it's a better cow than the one you've got in your own field. It's a fact. Right? And it never really works out that way."

Sir Alex Ferguson

Korat

You just know he's going to get injured and be out til X-mas now. :P

jayo26

feel the love for our captain guys

Adamocovic

Korat wrote: »

You just know he's going to get injured and be out til X-mas now. :P

Then we'll all be back here arguing again :pac::pac:

Pro. F

Tugboats wrote: »

sorry thought you said title winning team not looking to win it. 18-20 is still my answer anyway. I think Rooney himself has set a target of 20. He wont achieve it this season or any season we're stuck with him. He may do it in the MLS if he goes

Cool. So if Rooney scores 18 goals in the PL this season you will have been proven wrong about him not being good enough to be first choice striker for a team with PL winning aspirations.

Lithium93_

Just for ****s & giggles, i'd love it if Rooney scored 20+ goals this season just to spite Tugboats.

Tugboats

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Just for ****s & giggles, i'd love it if Rooney scored 20+ goals this season just to spite Tugboats.

So would I. Do you think I will enjoy watching Rooney struggle and the club finishing 4th

jayo26

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Just for ****s & giggles, i'd love it if Rooney scored 20+ goals this season just to spite Tugboats.

He will probably be well gone before we can rub it in his face.

Lithium93_

Tugboats wrote: »

So would I. Do you think I will enjoy watching Rooney struggle and the club finishing 4th

Everyone would love it, nobody would like to see Rooney struggle because on his good days he's just as good as any other striker, and for god's sake UNITED ARE NOT GOING TO FINISH 4TH..

Your Airbag

People doubting Rooneys quality.

Sigh

No transfer news

Sigh

This thread the past few days

Sigh

UnitedIrishman

I think I enjoyed the Welbeck and Nani discussions more than this.

It's funny, it's real modern day fan stuff when a player can score 19 goals and be a failure and score 20 goals and be a success. Such arbitrary arguments going on.

keane2097

JamboMac wrote: »

I'd say solskjaer would probably beat them easily but he was never our main striker or a player we depended on to score all the goals, I rate Rooney as a player but not as consistent goalscorer.

If we don get a top class striker during the summer their will be a mad scramble in January for one.

Wat?

You posted the goals per game stat yourself like you thought it was meaningful.

Look, here it is:

JamboMac wrote: »

Rooneys record for united 479 apps 230 goals every 2.08 games

Ruud van nistelrooy 219 app 150 goals every 1.46 games

Aguero 120 apps 78 goals every 1.53 games

So compare the strikers.

My issue isn't his wages it's his lack of being consistent goal threat.

There, you posted it like it meant something, now it doesn't mean anything after all.

This is daft. At best.

bangkok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOYcn0_fKHk

greatest goal in premier league history??

tastyt

Amazes me that some don't appreciate Rooney.

He's been United's best consistently. Aguero has the best ever goals to games played in the premiership as far as I know and is quality but is left in or around the box with the likes of Silva and toure providing to him. Rooney would flourish with that service. Mourinho tried everything to get him, Costa was only Jose's second choice when he couldn't get Rooney.

He has been ****ed around for years in terms of position but always puts in a shift when countless others would sulk on the pitch. It's a weird kind of thing with supporters when it comes to Rooney and Gerrard. Two players who briefly may have thought a couple of times about leaving their clubs and get absolutely slaughtered for it by some supporters, even after showing loyalty and staying.

Yet Ronaldo, Beckham, Schmeichel, Alonso, mascherano and the likes are treated and talked about as legends and heroes ( which they are ) but they all ****ed off when they felt like it.

Rooney is greatly underappreciated. This time next year he will be England's and United top ever scorer despite being asked to play all over the place. Every other team in Europe would take him in the morning of he was for sale, besides barca maybe

The_Kew_Tour

And a minority were pished off with us on about the Positivity Train.

You asked for it!!!!

Trigger

Your Airbag wrote: »

People doubting Rooneys quality.

Sigh

No transfer news

Sigh

This thread the past few days

Sigh

Id say even Pro F agrees with you on this one :pac:

Giggsy11

bangkok wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOYcn0_fKHk

greatest goal in premier league history??

Nope.

Tugboats

tastyt wrote: »

. It's a weird kind of thing with supporters when it comes to Rooney and Gerrard. Two players who briefly may have thought a couple of times about leaving their clubs

How can you compare Rooney to Gerrard?. Rooney did leave his club

Fúckin Summer holidays.

pmasterson95

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Adamocovic

stankratz wrote: »

Fúckin Summer holidays.

Oh just wait for the heated debate when the new kit is confirmed!

You need to dress like a champion to be a champion, we've got no chance this year in that kit

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Brendan Flowers

Slightly off topic (is that any harm!) but what ever happened with the person who lost a bet a few weeks ago and the forfeit was something like they had to strip in the window of Browne Thomas? I'm guessing that poster was just full of it and didnt actually have the balls (pun intended) to honour the bet!?

UnitedIrishman

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

And a minority were pished off with us on about the Positivity Train.

You asked for it!!!!

16 days til the start of the season! Choo choo!

Ashley Young will sign a new contract soon. Talks on going.

Romero to be unveiled soon too.

If I have to push this train down the track I will do it! :pac:

bangkok

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Nope.

been lots of brilliant goals over the years but for me its no1.

Live on Sky sports, Super Sunday, Manchester Derby, game tied at 1-1 and to produce that in a game of that magnitude wins it for me. It was an unbelievable goal.

Trigger

Brendan Flowers wrote: »

Slightly off topic (is that any harm!) but what ever happened with the person who lost a bet a few weeks ago and the forfeit was something like they had to strip in the window of Browne Thomas? I'm guessing that poster was just full of it and didnt actually have the balls (pun intended) to honour the bet!?

He tried to play it off as a joke.. Get ProF on his case

pmasterson95

Brendan Flowers wrote: »

Slightly off topic (is that any harm!) but what ever happened with the person who lost a bet a few weeks ago and the forfeit was something like they had to strip in the window of Browne Thomas? I'm guessing that poster was just full of it and didnt actually have the balls (pun intended) to honour the bet!?

Coat22 hes around still. Not worth making bets with.

Adamocovic

astradave wrote: »

He tried to play it off as a joke.. Get ProF on his case

I vaguely remember a post recently in AH asking have people got naked for bets where a poster had lost a bet and needed to get naked, not sure if it was the same (cant remember name of the AH poster) but maybe he was doing research into the legal ramifications :P

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/FutbolSergi/status/624214565983653888

Adamocovic

zerks wrote: »

https://twitter.com/FutbolSergi/status/624214565983653888

Woodward floating around the Barca bench on Saturday while VG flies over paper planes with wage offers scribbled on them?

:pac:

Tugboats

zerks wrote: »

https://twitter.com/FutbolSergi/status/624214565983653888

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT2yeV4VCkw

im in

jayo26

Adamocovic wrote: »

Woodward floating around the Barca bench on Saturday while VG flies over paper planes with wage offers scribbled on them?

:pac:

Haha good one.

Quandary

bangkok wrote: »

been lots of brilliant goals over the years but for me its no1.

Live on Sky sports, Super Sunday, Manchester Derby, game tied at 1-1 and to produce that in a game of that magnitude wins it for me. It was an unbelievable goal.

I understand why people might think that when you take the game and opponent into account but for me, purely judging the goal on its own I think it's hard to beat Cantona's goal against Sunderland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1uOZbH2qNg

jayo26

Quandary wrote: »

I understand why people might think that when you take the game and opponent into account but for me, purely judging the goal on its own I think it's hard to beat Cantona's goal against Sunderland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1uOZbH2qNg

Hard to beat his celebration too.

Tugboats

My first game at Old Trafford and my hero. Will always be my greatest goal:P