Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 - Mod Post in OP 23/07

jayo26

RVN10 wrote: »

Totally agree with most of the things you are saying , but its the ones where the likes "Adm has signed a 5yr contract with psg" with absolutely no concrete info.

I read it to get me through the day in work but it turns people in to a frenzy altogether here when some random Joe Bloggs says Messi is signing for us.(obviously I know this hasnt been mentioned.):D

Its a bit like watching a programme on tv you watch it because you know its not real but its a source of entertainment and a bit of what if... But then you have people that will watch it and take it as fact and real life

Leroy42

RVN10 wrote: »

some random Joe Bloggs says Messi is signing for us.:D

OMG, Messi signed for us, thats brilliant, but where will he slot in?

Mars Bar

I noticed a serious amount of United jerseys being worn around town today. Lots of happy fans out there!

homerjay2005

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Why pay so much for Di Maria to let him go after 1 season. Not fitting into LvG's system doesn't make sense considering he bought him. No chance he's going.

i think there is an element of truth into the notion that we bought Di Maria without alot of thinking.

i mean, in one sense a world class player is a no brainer, everybody was happy we signed him.

however, i think we did so perhaps a little bit to please the fans or show our power after other things didnt work out. it does honestly look like DI maria didnt fully want to be at the club last season.

Leroy42

^Yeah, I think ADM was a power play rather than a thought out purchase, bt like Falcao.
United had to be seen to be still the big boys, new manager and have the ability to attract world class talent.

homerjay2005

Samuel Luckhurst ‏@samuelluckhurst 3m3 minutes ago
From what I've been told about Valdes since the players returned to training, not surprised he was excluded from #MUtour. #mufc

becoming a side show in itself! sounds like he came back and acted the b*llix so he has been dropped off the squad.

hufpc8w3adnk65

homerjay2005 wrote: »

becoming a side show in itself! sounds like he came back and acted the b*llix so he has been dropped off the squad.

Could be he came back 2/3 stone over weight?

IamtheWalrus

Leroy42 wrote: »

^Yeah, I think ADM was a power play rather than a thought out purchase, bt like Falcao.
United had to be seen to be still the big boys, new manager and have the ability to attract world class talent.

Di Maria leaving after one season doesn't paint Manchester in a very appealing light regarding future Latin recruits.

Rossi IRL

Liam O wrote: »

Mata should be playing off Rooney with the 2 wingers providing penetration and space for them.

Thats all well and good but LVG's system is 1 defensive mid, 2 cemter mids , 2 wingers and 1 striker.

Playing mata off rooney is no longer LVG's 433 system , it becomes a 4231 which i dont think he plays.

TheDoc

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Di Maria leaving after one season doesn't paint Manchester in a very appealing light regarding future Latin recruits.

In fairness they hardly paint themselves in a great light as adaptable to the Premier League.

Aguero the resounding the success among a few others, the majority of Brazilians, South Americans and Argentinians that come to the premier league struggle massively.

I'd see it as more a reflection on the culture of the players rather then the club. I am normally skeptical as **** when we sign players from Brazil, Argentina or South America. Di MAria I didn't really worry about considering his stature, but it goes to show.

JamboMac

What if this happened instead, di Maria and de gea to Madrid and bale and ronaldo to United.

Mitch Connor

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Thats all well and good but LVG's system is 1 defensive mid, 2 cemter mids , 2 wingers and 1 striker.

Playing mata off rooney is no longer LVG's 433 system , it becomes a 4231 which i dont think he plays.

Not true.

LVG has two 433 systems.

One is defensive, with the triangle inverted (a DM), one is offensive with a more traditional triangle in midfield comprising of a number 10 supporting the striker.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/1victorvaldes/status/620911741547974657

UnitedIrishman

homerjay2005 wrote: »

becoming a side show in itself! sounds like he came back and acted the b*llix so he has been dropped off the squad.

I'd imagine it's more to do with his performance since he came back rather than his behaviour.

keane2097

NB - most people (including Pro. F) should probably skip this post as it is essentially a treatise on epistemology that should be interesting to no one.

Pro. F wrote: »

I get that it can be very hubristic to be overly critical of a manager's decisions. And I certainly agree that without all the information that the manager has available to him it is quite likely that from time to time we will be mistaken about what is really going on. But I also think that many people show far too much blind faith in managers. That just because any particular manager has a history of success that every decision they make is a good one.

I think for the vast, vast majority of people, showing far more "blind faith" to people like Woodward and LVG would make them less dumb by far, but I digress.

You may consider this a point of pedantry, but I certainly don't - "blind faith" based on a long history of exceptional performance is not actually "blind faith" at all. It's an eminently sensible nod to the fact that past excellence over a long period is a decent indicator of ongoing competence and ability.

If your analysis leads you to a conclusion that someone who has appeared to be an elite level expert has suddenly become an idiot at precisely the same moment they started to do things you don't approve of... well, then...

You're obviously correct that people like LVG and Woodward probably make sub-optimal decisions all the time, but it's probably impossible to know which ones they are because of things being observed through the media/from 90 minutes a week on the pitch. The conclusions being arrived at from viewing this amount of evidence are almost certainly false, or at best true by accident.

Whenever I see a series of events that look strange, my reaction is to try to think of plausible reasons for them. Plausible reasons do not include things like "Ed Woodward hasn't got a clue", "LVG eventually blundered into a formation that worked" or "LVG couldn't see that Rooney was worse in midfield than Herrera, but I and everyone else on the United thread on boards could".

To my mind, there are maybe three main reasons a person could have for opinions as extreme as the above -

1. the person is an idiot
2. the person derives some satisfaction from believing themselves more correct than the person they are lampooning, or derives some displeasure from the idea that someone else may be as smart as or smarter than them
3. the person has failed to consider plausible alternatives and/or the existence of additional factors in the decision making process that have a material effect.

Pro. F wrote: »

With regards to LVG's performance last season. Firstly, the potential problems with the selections and formations weren't obvious to everybody. There were only a few of us pointing them out. Most people were fawning over the superstar names and assuming that formations and line-ups that Van Gaal was choosing were going to work.

Secondly, I've always said that there could be factors we're unaware of shaping Van Gaal's decisions. I have also been looking for and quick to acknowledge whenever I've seen possible glimpses at the reasoning behind his decisions (like Rooney's work-rate at 10 being a possible reason as to why he would be picked there ahead of Mata in the narrow formations).

Most importantly, I've been open to looking at possible explanations for why Van Gaal did what he did. But nobody has provided any.

I agree and agreed that there were issues of squad balance. I'm also certain that if we could see that LVG and Woodward could.

Arguments went on constantly between those who thought they were just building a squad really badly and those who thought they filled as many positions as possible with decent players, added star quality to the squad in an attempt to maintain/increase the caché of the club and did deals that would improve relationships with important power brokers inside the game etc.

In fact this whole section of your reply is nearly very sensible, but in the last line you betray the entire problem you are having. Nobody, but nobody, is ever going to provide you with the explanations you are looking for.

Your reaction to that is to, rightly, take the information we have as all the information we'll ever have. Where you go wrong is to decide that the appropriate thing to then do is make a firm judgement based on the info you have and allow that to become reality in your mind.

That leads you to unbelievably pompous statements like the following that are just laughable:

I was always interested in seeing Rooney playing in midfield and I've always argued that he has the attributes for it, but, unlike Van Gaal, it didn't take months for me to realise that it wasn't going to work once Rooney went in there this season. Van Gaal doesn't get a pass on that one because he was far too slow to see that it needed changing.

In my wildest dreams I could never countenance making a statement like the above, because the assumptions needed to make it are so much more outlandish than making what you have called an "appeal to authority" by saying "there are bound to be factors at play that we are unaware of" that it becomes a pure absurdity to hold the former position.

Pro. F wrote: »

The conversation does end up becoming overly black and white because of the constant back and forth of differing opinions, but your "loose" description of my side of that conversation is not fair or accurate.

Based on your stated opinions that LVG was unable to see things that many ordinary Joe Soaps could in terms of squad building, player performance, selection etc and your constant references to LVG happening upon a working formation by pure luck I don't agree that I'm being particularly unfair. For eg.,

The best performances were because Carrick was in midfield and LVG had finally chanced on a functioning formation

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96064360&postcount=9149

If I'm actually being unfair then I've wasted a lot of time, although much of the above is applicable to the thread in general.

Again, I don't consider anything wrong with the discussions in the slightest and mostly enjoy them. Most of the best discussions to be had are on unknowables from existence of god to dark energy, but the way conclusions are arrived at and the force with which they're put forward on this particular set of topics are grating and silly.

If you're still reading and the posts/opinions I have taken issue with (i.e. LVG didn't see the same issue with Rooney we all saw, last seasons transfers were terrible with no reasoning, LVG just blundered into a working formation etc.) are unrepresentative shorthand for other things all of the above is obviously baseless on my part.

TheDoc

JamboMac wrote: »

What if this happened instead, di Maria and de gea to Madrid and bale and ronaldo to United.

You know what would happen, but why would Madrid take Di Maria back : /

Was hoping De Gea could be used as a bargaining chip for Bale this summer, but appears he is not for sale and Ramos is who we focused in on.

So many people still think Di Maria was a winger. He is a CM. If he went and we near recouped our fee, while already having brought in Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlan could be a good move. Would provide more funds to strengthen elsewhere, make a marquee singing, or just put it in the bank.

Schweinsteiger operates strongest as a LCM. He has operated as a DM or part of a DM pairing, but he does his best work on that left of midfield. I envisage that is where he will play, in that slot Fellaini was occupying, as Di Maria did before him. Scheiderlan and Schweinsteiger provide options, both being able to play in DM and both being able to play as part of a CM two or three. So couple with Herrera and Fellaini there is good options there.

I have to assume that a new CB is coming in to sort out that requirement.
I have to assume either DDG stays, or a new keeper comes to replace him sorting that requirement.

The other possible improvements to be made are up front, and out on the right. I think we will play with one striker and Rooney will be number 1. But I think there should be some good backup there for when Rooney hits his inevitable barren spell. Trick is finding someone good enough to play second fiddle.

I like Mata and think he is excellent and provides something unique. While there is every possability he can turn into a inside forward playing from the right, a big fee for Di Maria could allow United really test Bayern for Muller, or look into other options like out of favour Gotze, release clause bound Reus etc.

Quandary

If Di Maria leaves then I think it will be because he has asked to leave. If his family hate life in Manchester then I can't imagine his head not being turned by the likes of a move to Paris.

It would be a real shame to lose him though. A settled and happy Di Maria could easily be our player of the season next year. Let's hope Herrera and Mata can extend their positivity shields around him

Love Herrera, I hope he is one of the first names on the team sheet in every match next season.

DARK-KNIGHT

Leroy42 wrote: »

OMG, Messi signed for us, thats brilliant, but where will he slot in?

CB

stephenl15

Hahaha this is too funny! Every --- is a different persons comment under the original :P http://www.the42.ie/bastian-schweinsteiger-morgan-schneiderlin-manchester-united-tactics-2214390-Jul2015/

Kris Ertz
13 hours ago # 16 151 Jaysus United can’t win with the analysts. Last season they’d too few midfielders and were over reliant on Carrick. Now they’ve addressed that by signing two quality midfielders and there’s ‘not enough room’. More games this season and injuries will mean Carrick, Herrera, Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlin will all get plenty of game time. Mata will get some games in the centre and Fellaini and Blind will play their parts too.

---

Jaysus United:

Gandhi (GK)

Pope JP
M Teresa
Matthew
Desmond our bishop

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John

Moses
Jesus of Nazareth (C)

---

Matthew is so good I named him twice
----
Will he play the Djemba-Djemba role then?
----
The team was never the same after the Judas transfer. 30 pieces of silver was great money to get, but reinvested badly.

---

Jesus struggles up front. He can turn water in to wine but can’t turn chances in to goals.

---

And you’d swear he was afraid of every cross
----
and the lads are nailing the crosses perfectly.

Vic Vinegar

It wasn't actually funny at all.

Pinturicchio

As things stand, what would ye expect to be your starting XI this season?

Something like this?

Not De Gea?
Darmian Smalling Rojo Shaw
Herrera Schneiderlin Schweinsteiger
Di Maria/Mata Rooney Depay

The Moldy Gowl

Vic Vinegar wrote: »

It wasn't actually funny at all.

Why would a Hindu be playing for a Christian team?
Not to mention playing a frail woman at center back.

Mitch Connor

Pinturicchio wrote: »

As things stand, what would ye expect to be your starting XI this season?

---

Lloris
Darmian-Otamendi-Smalling-Shaw

---

Schneiderlin

---

Herrera--Schweinstieger
Mata

---

Depay

---

Rooney

De Gea gone.
Valdes gone.
Di Maria gone.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

---

Lloris
Darmian-Otamendi-Smalling-Shaw

---

Schneiderlin

---

Herrera--Schweinstieger
Mata

---

Depay

---

Rooney

De Gea gone.
Valdes gone.
Di Maria gone.

he said as things stand, so I don't think you can include lloris or otamendi.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/Fenerbahce_EN/status/620944924662497280

TheDoc

As things stand, ie with our current personal?

GK: De Gea
RB: Darmian
LB: Blind
CB: Smalling
CB: Rojo
DM: Carrick
LCM: Schweinsteiger
RCM: Herrera
LWF: Depay
RWF: Mata
ST: Rooney

I think Shaw is going to have to impress pre-season and train hard to get in the team ahead of Blind, who I feel has the managers trust right now. Not a make or break season for Shaw, but he needs to stay injury free, impress, and keep his head down if he wants to get a regular place. Even Rojo looks a more reliable option.

I think Carrick will probably start in the DM role, and probably be rested a fair bit with Schneiderlan coming in there. Probably Carricks last season as a no brainer starter, and if injuries appear Schneiderlan could be quickly in there as a first team regular.

I think Schneiderlan will for a time be plugging the holes left by Schweinsteiger and Carrick due to rest and or injury

The rest is self explanatory. Obviously additional signings will change it, but from the current squad as it stands, that's what I anticipate, all injuries aside.

Form dependant, Di Maria could take up Mata's spot to provide further pace and penetration on the flanks. But Di Maria very much needs to come back strong from this latest injury, and really up his game. He is nowhere near a guaranteed starter at present.

homerjay2005

zerks wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Fenerbahce_EN/status/620944924662497280

the wages him and Nani are getting in Turkey are insane.....two of the best paid players in Europe outside of the big players at the elite clubs.

Mitch Connor

bangkok wrote: »

he said as things stand, so I don't think you can include lloris or otamendi.

As things stand, this is my prediction of what will happen. His post also says not ddg so you are wrong.

TheDoc

keane2097 wrote: »

Big post dissecting ProF post with multiquote

dave_o_brien

I think Schweinsteiger was a brilliant buy; the thought of Herrera, Schneiderlin and Blind maturing with Carrick and Schweinsteiger in the squad is comforting. Shouldn't be soft centred again for another decade or so.

Polo_Mint

zerks wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Fenerbahce_EN/status/620944924662497280

Farewell Sweet Prince

Cantona's Collars

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the wages him and Nani are getting in Turkey are insane.....two of the best paid players in Europe outside of the big players at the elite clubs.

15% tax rate there and clubs usually pay that too.

223vmax

With Lloris' broken wrist and Di Maria hamstring how would they pass the medical?

Pinturicchio

Thanks for the replies.

For what it's worth, from an outsider's perspective, I think letting Di Maria leave would be a huge mistake. One underwhelming season doesn't change the fact that he was brilliant for several years before that, far better than Mata.

How do you think this season will go? Is this the year you're expecting to be "back"? Do you expect to be really challenging for title and in the latter stages of the Champions League?

I don't think that's a back four that'll get you to the business end of the Champions League. Top teams could make bits of the likes of Smalling and Rojo.

Mitch Connor

While I like the ruthless streak LVG has to some extent, give the free ride palyers have had hear over the years - I can't help but be a little disappointed at the ending of Rafaels and RVPs time here. Obviously stuff may be going on behind the scenes that means they need to go - but from the outside looking in they are players I think can still contribute significantly to united if given the chance.

Lovely Bloke

223vmax wrote: »

With Lloris' broken wrist and Di Maria hamstring how would they pass the medical?

Same way Hargreaves did with no knees.

TheDoc

Disappointed that Van Persie has taken the move to Turkey. Can understand why, but feel it's beneath him. he maintains he still has years left to go, and when he is sharp and on form he is one of the best in the world.

Was bought for a very specific purpose, win the league and ensure City don't do a back to back, and he achieved this with some gusto. That season will long stick in the memory for a standout individual, he was incredible.

That Fergusons retirement hit him badly, and he went the way he did under Moyes was extremely disappointing to see. Watching him last year struggle at times, and with injury, probably just cemented for me he was struggling to maintain his level.

There are those in vocal disagreement when I state Van Persie for me hasn't been good enough the last two seasons, but all that is irrelevant now that I can look back on that one season, which made him worth every penny.

Again another world class star that arrived at the tail end of his career, that I only wish we had a few years earlier.

I've a video saved on youtube that is a highlight reel of his first season at the club. Must watch it about once a week, it's incredible as was he.

Polo_Mint

223vmax wrote: »

With Lloris' broken wrist and Di Maria hamstring how would they pass the medical?

Many players are bought with injuries

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

While I like the ruthless streak LVG has to some extent, give the free ride palyers have had hear over the years - I can't help but be a little disappointed at the ending of Rafaels and RVPs time here. Obviously stuff may be going on behind the scenes that means they need to go - but from the outside looking in they are players I think can still contribute significantly to united if given the chance.

While a lot of it is being put down to LVG being ruthless, I would get the impression he can be quit compassionate and honest when dealing with players in this regard.

Van Persie is starting to figure on the fringes for Holland. He has one more big tournament left in him, and that comes around next year(if they qualify) A new Holland coach might have new ideas, so don't be surprised if Van Persie went for some assurances to see if he figured as the main striker.

He will need to be playing and scoring to figure in that Euro squad as a first team striker. Not overly surprised to see him move. While I'd have liked him to stay, he would have been a second choice striker, which someone in his situation most likely can't settle with.

And argueably someone with this reputation shouldn't be settling for.

Mitch Connor

Pinturicchio wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

For what it's worth, from an outsider's perspective, I think letting Di Maria leave would be a huge mistake. One underwhelming season doesn't change the fact that he was brilliant for several years before that, far better than Mata.

How do you think this season will go? Is this the year you're expecting to be "back"? Do you expect to be really challenging for title and in the latter stages of the Champions League?

I don't think that's a back four that'll get you to the business end of the Champions League. Top teams could make bits of the likes of Smalling and Rojo.

When we add another forward option, and a centre back and I think we will be well placed to compete for the league and I think we should do well in the CL as I believe the CL will suit LVGs style and tactical set up near perfectly. While the type of football he has us playing may not suit the PL all the time, and we need to change things up from it, I think it is perfect for European football - and I reckon LVG will have us set up tactically very well if/when we play the big sides. At that point we are hoping our players can follow though on the plans - and I have a growing confidence in this playing squad to do so.

I would expect us to challenge for the title, and finish top 3 - with only a few points seperating us from the top. In the CL, it depends on the draw but I would expect us out of the group and into the quaters at least.

As for Di Maria - unless he is kicking up a fuss that we aren't seeing in public, i'd not consider selling him. We lacked creativity and pace last season, selling him would only bring us back to the same problem (having brought in Memphis).

Mitch Connor

223vmax wrote: »

With Lloris' broken wrist and Di Maria hamstring how would they pass the medical?

You don't need to be 100% fit to pass a medical. If the doctor examines the injury and decides it won't impact long term fitness and will be dealt with shortly, the medical will be passed. Most of it is static stuff - checking heart conditions etc.

Coat22

Mitch Connor wrote: »

While I like the ruthless streak LVG has to some extent, give the free ride palyers have had hear over the years - I can't help but be a little disappointed at the ending of Rafaels and RVPs time here. Obviously stuff may be going on behind the scenes that means they need to go - but from the outside looking in they are players I think can still contribute significantly to united if given the chance.

RVP was on £240k a week to do what? Come on for 15 minutes and grab the fourth goal in a 4-1 win against Bournemouth? ITs exactly the move Feruson used to be able to make 10 years ago, "you've been great but now you don't have it any more, move on. "

Rafael never had it to begin with. Like Jones and Smalling he was brought in on promise that never materialised. One good season but not got what it takes to be an elite FB. Turkish football about his level.

Only need Evans now to be shipped out, Jones on his last chance and Smalling needing to continue to show his form of the last few months to cement his place in the squad.

Outstanding clear out job by VG.

Liam O

TheDoc wrote: »

Disappointed that Van Persie has taken the move to Turkey. Can understand why, but feel it's beneath him. he maintains he still has years left to go, and when he is sharp and on form he is one of the best in the world.

Was bought for a very specific purpose, win the league and ensure City don't do a back to back, and he achieved this with some gusto. That season will long stick in the memory for a standout individual, he was incredible.

That Fergusons retirement hit him badly, and he went the way he did under Moyes was extremely disappointing to see. Watching him last year struggle at times, and with injury, probably just cemented for me he was struggling to maintain his level.

There are those in vocal disagreement when I state Van Persie for me hasn't been good enough the last two seasons, but all that is irrelevant now that I can look back on that one season, which made him worth every penny.

Again another world class star that arrived at the tail end of his career, that I only wish we had a few years earlier.

I've a video saved on youtube that is a highlight reel of his first season at the club. Must watch it about once a week, it's incredible as was he.

Look at the squad Fenerbahce have now is all I'll say. They just got 2 serious players for about £12m up front, their wage bill will be big but they have money and it'll still be dwarfed by the big teams. They may have a tough draw in the CL qualifiers but if they make it they have the potential to ruffle a few feathers.

Trigger

223vmax wrote: »

With Lloris' broken wrist and Di Maria hamstring how would they pass the medical?

https://twitter.com/GFN_France/status/620886501535129600

If Utd can get a big transfer fee for Di Maria I think they should take it.

Aside from the cash it frees up a big chunk of wages, and I think it's a risk to keep him anyway. With Depay signed the squad is fine without him.

The Moldy Gowl

Coat22 wrote: »

RVP was on £240k a week to do what? Come on for 15 minutes and grab the fourth goal in a 4-1 win against Bournemouth? ITs exactly the move Feruson used to be able to make 10 years ago, "you've been great but now you don't have it any more, move on. "

Rafael never had it to begin with. Like Jones and Smalling he was brought in on promise that never materialised. One good season but not got what it takes to be an elite FB. Turkish football about his level.

Only need Evans now to be shipped out, Jones on his last chance and Smalling needing to continue to show his form of the last few months to cement his place in the squad.

Outstanding clear out job by VG.

Jones is one of the best young defenders in Europe. Can you name 5 better defenders under 25?
You know he is 23 ya?

Coat22

Ernesto Juicy Popgun wrote: »

If Utd can get a big transfer fee for Di Maria I think they should take it.

Aside from the cash it frees up a big chunk of wages, and I think it's a risk to keep him anyway. With Depay signed the squad is fine without him.

I agree - if he has another 'mare of a season they'll struggle to get £20M for him in a years time. Few clubs that seriously could take him so if PSG are offering we should cut our losses.

Coat22

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Jones is one of the best young defenders in Europe. Can you name 5 better defenders under 25?
You know he is 23 ya?

Squad player

Mitch Connor

Ernesto Juicy Popgun wrote: »

If Utd can get a big transfer fee for Di Maria I think they should take it.

Aside from the cash it frees up a big chunk of wages, and I think it's a risk to keep him anyway. With Depay signed the squad is fine without him.

Disagree. ADM is one of the few players in the squad you can look at to change a game with a bit of skill and pace. Him and Depay. Januzaj you could hope for but nothing last season suggests he will offer it. We have some nice creative players, such as Herrera and Mata, but the pace to really stretch teams is sparse at United and he is one of the players we should be looking to to provide it.

Granted if he continued as he did for the season half of last season we'd be on a hiding to nothing there but I'd be very disappointed if we didn't even try to find out if he can be the world class player, imo, we bought.

magnumbud

don't know if it was put in here yet but marca are claiming that otamendi is refusing to return to spain from his holiday and insisting a transfer is pushed through. wasnt there a similar thing with rojo last year?