Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 - Mod Post in OP 23/07

Liam O

Ernesto Juicy Popgun wrote: »

If Utd can get a big transfer fee for Di Maria I think they should take it.

Aside from the cash it frees up a big chunk of wages, and I think it's a risk to keep him anyway. With Depay signed the squad is fine without him.

If you like Ashley Young and Valencia getting significant games on the wing it is. One injury to Mata away from Valencia on the right and one to Depay from Young on the left. Young is sufficient for a backup player but with Depay's youth and versatility could be first choice a lot again which he's not good enough for.

sky88

With the current squad id like to see

de gea

darmian smalling rojo shaw

bastian morgan ander cant spell any of there second names

mata rooney depay


but if nothing changed i think fellani would be in for van gaal instead of ander think he really likes the big guy

DARK-KNIGHT

have any of you seen dimaria in action for argies? in matches i seen recently he was brilliant you dont lose world class ability madness to sell adm

Your Airbag

Only way I'd like to see ADM going to PSG is if Verratti comes to us as part of the deal.

homerjay2005

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Jones is one of the best young defenders in Europe.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

UnitedIrishman

Coat22 wrote: »

Squad player

Still didn't answer the question though. If Jones was 27 or 28 and he was performing poorly, that'd be one thing. Young CB's tend to take a long time and a lot of learning before they are fully comfortable.

Mitch Connor

Your Airbag wrote: »

Only way I'd like to see ADM going to PSG is if Verratti comes to us as part of the deal.

Prior to signing Schweinstieger and Schneiderlin I'd have agreed - at this point I wouldn't sell ADM at all.

The Moldy Gowl

Coat22 wrote: »

Squad player

Well yes. Ideal he would be, any 23 year old defender for a top team would.

But unfortunately we are not in a situation like that so we got to see what any other young player does. Making mistakes.
Defending starts from the front.

Nalz

Did one of my posts just get liked by Wheresmejumpa?

Holy fluck is this 2007-2008? We're gonna do the double!

Exciteballs!

The Moldy Gowl

homerjay2005 wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Any other better under 25s??

2/3?

homerjay2005

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Well yes. Ideal he would be, any 23 year old defender for a top team would.

But unfortunately we are not in a situation like that so we got to see what any other young player does. Making mistakes.
Defending starts from the front.

if/when we get Otamendi, Jones is 4th choice of 4. LVG and his staff have worked magic on DDG, maybe he can do the same but im not so confident.

Jones is a back up squad defender who can do a job against the midtable teams likeWest Ham, Liverpool and Stoke.

The Moldy Gowl

Trilla wrote: »

Did one of my posts just get liked by Wheresmejumpa?

Holy fluck is this 2007-2008? We're gonna do the double!

Exciteballs!

A mardy bum thanked mine earlier.
Back to 2006 we go.

bangkok

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Jones is one of the best young defenders in Europe. Can you name 5 better defenders under 25?
You know he is 23 ya?

varane
gaya
Bernat
marquinhos
luke shaw

phil jones 6th

The Moldy Gowl

homerjay2005 wrote: »

if/when we get Otamendi, Jones is 4th choice of 4. LVG and his staff have worked magic on DDG, maybe he can do the same but im not so confident.

Jones is a back up squad defender who can do a job against the midtable teams likeWest Ham, Liverpool and Stoke.

Ha oh you....


Yeah, I agree. Smalling is better, rojo is slightly better. Otamendi is better.
Dosent take away the fact jones is one of the best young defenders in Europe.
He is a young player still learning and will make mistakes like any other.

homerjay2005

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Any other better under 25s??

2/3?

2/3?? i could name 23, 33, 43....here is just a small sample.

Varane.
Chambers.
Carvajal
Shaw.
Clyne.
Barnat.
Marquinhos
Dier
Rojo, smalling & Darmian are all 25.

the list is endless - Jones is at a level slightly above Carl Jenkinson and that type of player.

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

varane
gaya
Bernat
marquinhos
luke shaw

phil jones 6th

And that's still not bad, could argue for 3rd or 4th or take out the wing backs becuase he is a cb.

But yeah my point still stands.
He won't be a Ferdinand or a vidic. But he will be a dam good defender in a few years.

Coat22

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Still didn't answer the question though. If Jones was 27 or 28 and he was performing poorly, that'd be one thing. Young CB's tend to take a long time and a lot of learning before they are fully comfortable.

Well off the top of my head, Marquinhos, Varane, Hummels is 26 but has been doing it at the highest level for at least 3 years, similarly Otamendi.

Agree the best defenders don't peak until they're 27/28 but they show signs of getting there by 23 and have established themselves as first team regulars. If Jones is to be a first team CB at Man Utd this is the level he's got to get to and I've certainly seen nothing to suggest over the past 3 or 4 seasons that he will.

To say he is one of the best young defenders in Europe is laughable

bangkok

Coat22 wrote: »

Well off the top of my head, Marquinhos, Varane, Hummels is 26 but has been doing it at the highest level for at least 3 years, similarly Otamendi.

Agree the best defenders don't peak until they're 27/28 but they show signs of getting there by 23 and have established themselves as first team regulars. If Jones is to be a first team CB at Man Utd this is the level he's got to get to and I've certainly seen nothing to suggest over the past 3 or 4 seasons that he will.

To say he is one of the best young defenders in Europe is laughable

I would say he is, but I would also say the standard of defenders is a lot different to what it was 10-20 years ago.

v3ttel

Coat22 wrote: »

Well off the top of my head, Marquinhos, Varane, Hummels is 26 but has been doing it at the highest level for at least 3 years, similarly Otamendi.

Agree the best defenders don't peak until they're 27/28 but they show signs of getting there by 23 and have established themselves as first team regulars. If Jones is to be a first team CB at Man Utd this is the level he's got to get to and I've certainly seen nothing to suggest over the past 3 or 4 seasons that he will.

To say he is one of the best young defenders in Europe is laughable

The challenge was to name name 5 CBs under 25 who are better.

You named 4, and 2 of them are over 25.

If it was so laughable, then it should have been an easy ask, no? Not that I agree with the OP either, but Jones is worth hanging on to, and with the right guidance under LVG, he could be an important player in the future.

UnitedIrishman

Coat22 wrote: »

Well off the top of my head, Marquinhos, Varane, Hummels is 26 but has been doing it at the highest level for at least 3 years, similarly Otamendi.

Agree the best defenders don't peak until they're 27/28 but they show signs of getting there by 23 and have established themselves as first team regulars. If Jones is to be a first team CB at Man Utd this is the level he's got to get to and I've certainly seen nothing to suggest over the past 3 or 4 seasons that he will.

To say he is one of the best young defenders in Europe is laughable

So you can name 2 or 3 CB's at a push who are better than him at his age right now and then say that saying he's one of the best young defenders is laughable. That doesn't compute. Just because he isn't world class right now people are writing him off already.

I wonder how much people have watched Marquinhos either given he played 20 games last year in a largely inferior league.

Someone mentioned great center halfs like Stam, Ferdinand, Vidic etc - have a look at where they were at 23 and come back to me. Very few reach a decent level until 25 or 26.

DARK-KNIGHT

no need sorry

Liam O

Smalling has had one half a good season in 3 or 4 years and everyone is happy to think he's good enough now, Jones gets injured a lot but has had good periods in every season and is better on the ball too imo, though Smalling looked very good at times the last few months of the season there were still a few dodgy moments with him. Smalling also got the most time in his preferred position than Jones(and Evans fwiw), rarely playing on the left side of CB. In an LVG system where the full backs push forward it demands a lot from the CBs with regards using the side they're playing on and Jones looked good on his weaker side in the latter stages. As did Evans but everyone was on a witchhunt with him so it doesn't really matter what I say.

J. Marston

https://twitter.com/ManUtdMEN/status/620962975197761536

Coat22

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

So you can name 2 or 3 CB's at a push who are better than him at his age right now and then say that saying he's one of the best young defenders is laughable. That doesn't compute. Just because he isn't world class right now people are writing him off already.

I wonder how much people have watched Marquinhos either given he played 20 games last year in a largely inferior league.

Someone mentioned great center halfs like Stam, Ferdinand, Vidic etc - have a look at where they were at 23 and come back to me. Very few reach a decent level until 25 or 26.

See this is the problem on here - if you think someone isn't good enough for United you are "writing them off". I'm not "writing him off" what I said was he had one more season to prove he could make it at united. United shouldn't be grooming players to be squad players, they should have a pipeline of serious talent coming through that can have a genuine chance of becoming first time regulars. Jones can still be a top class defender but just not at a CL level. Similar to Phil Neville, O'Shea and Brown - all found their level away from OT and did well.

Ask yourself the question - can you really see Jones as a first choice CB for united in 3 years or just a s a "good option to have"?

RichFTW

homerjay2005 wrote: »

2/3?? i could name 23, 33, 43....here is just a small sample.

Varane.
Chambers.
Carvajal
Shaw.
Clyne.
Barnat.
Marquinhos
Dier
Rojo, smalling & Darmian are all 25.

the list is endless - Jones is at a level slightly above Carl Jenkinson and that type of player.

Can you name the 43 so? I'd even be happy with 23. Curious to see at what point you realise you are clutching at straws with that statement. Chambers, Clyne and Dier are not better than Jones for a start anyway.

kippy

RichFTW wrote: »

Can you name the 43 so? I'd even be happy with 23. Curious to see at what point you realise you are clutching at straws with that statement. Chambers, Clyne and Dier are not better than Jones for a start anyway.

What exactly are we talking about here?
How do you propose to measure all of these guys "better defender" score?

A lot of these conversations are pointless. They are rarely based on fact and the protagonists will rarely if ever change their opinion no matter how solid the evidence that is put forward.

Nalz

RichFTW wrote: »

..Chambers, Clyne and Dier are not better than Jones for a start anyway.

They're as good as him in my opinion, but how will we measure this!?

Edit: Actually just take Kippys point below

TheDoc

kippy wrote: »

A lot of these conversations are pointless. They are rarely based on fact and the protagonists will rarely if ever change their opinion no matter how solid the evidence that is put forward.

Then football discussion wouldn't exist.

The whole world of football discussions is based of the premise that two people can look at the same thing, and come away with two varying opinions.

The heated discussion, is that you can't fathom how the other person could interpret the situation so horribly wrong(and that other person is doing the same thing to you)

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/ManUtdMEN/status/620962975197761536

RichFTW

kippy wrote: »

What exactly are we talking about here?
How do you propose to measure all of these guys "better defender" score?

A lot of these conversations are pointless. They are rarely based on fact and the protagonists will rarely if ever change their opinion no matter how solid the evidence that is put forward.

I know that. I was going to wait for the list and ask how someone could know all these players are better than Jones without having seen most of them. I'd imagine only top level professional scouts would have seen all of them (a list of 23 or 43) to make such a judgement. That's why I only mentioned PL players that I would be familiar enough with to say that Jones is better.

How about how many defenders under 25 would you rather have in the team before Jones?

Liam O

Putting Jones down because he's not as good as Shaw or Clyne or whoever(not saying I agree btw) is silly considering they don't play the same position. I would ask everyone if they could stop that please.

Cantona's Collars

Marca say Otamendi has informed Valencia that he will not be at training when it starts again on July 27.

They also say he's asked family members to start making arrangements and prepare to leave Spain.

Dacelonid

To me, this looks like our best 11

---

De Gea

---

Darmian -- Smalling -- Rojo -- Shaw

---

Herrera

---

Schweini

---

Depay

---

Mata

---

Di Maria

---

Rooney

---

With a second string of

---

Valdez

---

Tony V -- Blackett -- Jones -- Blind

---

Felleini

---

Carrick

---

Jan

---

?????

---

Young

---

Chico

---

Not sure who to put in place of Mata, Pereira maybe

Or possibly move Felleini up with Blind beside Carrick and McNair/Blackett etc at LB

Coat22

Liam O wrote: »

Smalling has had one half a good season in 3 or 4 years and everyone is happy to think he's good enough now, Jones gets injured a lot but has had good periods in every season and is better on the ball too imo, though Smalling looked very good at times the last few months of the season there were still a few dodgy moments with him. Smalling also got the most time in his preferred position than Jones(and Evans fwiw), rarely playing on the left side of CB. In an LVG system where the full backs push forward it demands a lot from the CBs with regards using the side they're playing on and Jones looked good on his weaker side in the latter stages. As did Evans but everyone was on a witchhunt with him so it doesn't really matter what I say.

I'd say Smalling is still on probation with VG. He impressed for a couple of months but he's got to push on, John O'Shea looked great in 2003/4 but then went away on holidays and forgot to come back the same player. I'd say VG remains sceptical on him also but if he continues in the form he showed since Christmas then he should keep his place (although can't see him playing alongside Ramos - if (big if) he comes in Smalling could struggle)

UnitedIrishman

Coat22 wrote: »

See this is the problem on here - if you think someone isn't good enough for United you are "writing them off". I'm not "writing him off" what I said was he had one more season to prove he could make it at united. United shouldn't be grooming players to be squad players, they should have a pipeline of serious talent coming through that can have a genuine chance of becoming first time regulars. Jones can still be a top class defender but just not at a CL level. Similar to Phil Neville, O'Shea and Brown - all found their level away from OT and did well.

Ask yourself the question - can you really see Jones as a first choice CB for united in 3 years or just a s a "good option to have"?

One more season? That's nonsense for a start given we have just handed him a new contract. Given the right guidance and game time I could see him being a starter for us in 3 years time. Obviously the club sees the same.

Really don't know what your expecting of a young center half who has proven himself competent at the highest level already. You also named three players who played their majority of their careers at OT and included Wes Brown who was arguably man of the match in a Champions League semi final. Don't get that one.

Also you say you aren't 'writing him off' - you just said that we shouldn't be developing a player who will just be a squad player.. if that's not writing him off as a United player then I don't know what is.

bangkok

Dacelonid wrote: »

To me, this looks like our best 11

---

De Gea

---

Darmian -- Smalling -- Rojo -- Shaw

---

Herrera

---

Schweini

---

Depay

---

Mata

---

Di Maria

---

Rooney

---

With a second string of

---

Valdez

---

Tony V -- Blackett -- Jones -- Blind

---

Felleini

---

Carrick

---

Jan

---

?????

---

Young

---

Chico

---

Not sure who to put in place of Mata, Pereira maybe

Or possibly move Felleini up with Blind beside Carrick and McNair/Blackett etc at LB

schneiderlain made neither team :eek:

Adamocovic

kippy wrote: »

What exactly are we talking about here?
How do you propose to measure all of these guys "better defender" score?

A lot of these conversations are pointless. They are rarely based on fact and the protagonists will rarely if ever change their opinion no matter how solid the evidence that is put forward.

Well for defender score the only real website I use for stats would be whoscored. A lot of times people use personal opinions on the matter and like you say don't change them. You can argue the relevance in stats because of so many variability that affect them but really it's one of the few things available for comparing players.

Personally I (and I've said it a lot) feel Jones gets a lot of undeserved criticism. This time last year the majority were calling for Smalling to get packing and now they are all including him in their starting squad. Based on the previous season I don't see why people completely changed their opinion on him but still feel Jones isnt good enough.

I remember recently seeing based on stats (tackles, interceptions, clearances etc) Jones was our best player last year and also the best defender in the premiership, as hard as some might find that to believe.

I said before that although you might argue the accuracy of that system for Man City Aguero was best, Arsenal Sanchez, Chelsea Hazard and Liverpool Coutinho all using the same system to determine their best player so it isn't the craziest of methods.

My overall point is a lot of people seem to have a personal preference to think Jones is not at the level needed. Fair enough. I certainly think he is good enough to start for us.

RichFTW

Liam O wrote: »

Putting Jones down because he's not as good as Shaw or Clyne or whoever(not saying I agree btw) is silly considering they don't play the same position. I would ask everyone if they could stop that please.

If you think that's bad, cast your mind back to when people were listing goalkeepers better than Welbeck :pac:

Still the most ridiculous thing I have read in these threads!

JamboMac

Liam O wrote: »

Putting Jones down because he's not as good as Shaw or Clyne or whoever(not saying I agree btw) is silly considering they don't play the same position. I would ask everyone if they could stop that please.

The reality is for less then probably the majority Jones would be seen as a massive liability as a Cb and that's why consistently he's played in different positions rather then Cb. I don't think he has the ability to read game which you need to do as a Cb and I'm not saying as cannavaro, I'm saying he's worse at reading situations than McNair and Evans and I'm not saying McNair is the finished article but he shows more promise at his age then Jones does. Jones will only be a utility player for injuries.

The Moldy Gowl

homerjay2005 wrote: »

2/3?? i could name 23, 33, 43....here is just a small sample.

Varane.
Chambers.
Carvajal
Shaw.
Clyne.
Barnat.
Marquinhos
Dier
Rojo, smalling & Darmian are all 25.

the list is endless - Jones is at a level slightly above Carl Jenkinson and that type of player.

And how many of them play center back? 2/3.
I would wager they all make the same amount of mistakes as jones, but jones is extenuated because we see all his games and maybe a handful of the others.

I'll admit my little analysis of best is Europe is a bit skewed because there isn't that many great defenders coming through.
But we should Definetely be hanging onto him until he is 28 or so and seeing what happens.

Maximus Alexander

zerks wrote: »

Marca say

Coat22

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

One more season? That's nonsense for a start given we have just handed him a new contract. Given the right guidance and game time I could see him being a starter for us in 3 years time. Obviously the club sees the same.

Really don't know what your expecting of a young center half who has proven himself competent at the highest level already. You also named three players who played their majority of their careers at OT and included Wes Brown who was arguably man of the match in a Champions League semi final. Don't get that one.

His contract was out next season so of course they would protect their investment by giving him a new one. He's not worthless - he'll be worth 15/20M to somebody.

And those 3 players were good squad players, as Jones could be but won't by a first choice unless he gets lucky like O'Shea did when Rio forgot to have a piss.

The Moldy Gowl

Adamocovic wrote: »

Well for defender score the only real website I use for stats would be whoscored. A lot of times people use personal opinions on the matter and like you say don't change them. You can argue the relevance in stats because of so many variability that affect them but really it's one of the few things available for comparing players.

Personally I (and I've said it a lot) feel Jones gets a lot of undeserved criticism. This time last year the majority were calling for Smalling to get packing and now they are all including him in their starting squad. Based on the previous season I don't see why people completely changed their opinion on him but still feel Jones isnt good enough.

I remember recently seeing based on stats (tackles, interceptions, clearances etc) Jones was our best player last year and also the best defender in the premiership, as hard as some might find that to believe.

I said before that although you might argue the accuracy of that system for Man City Aguero was best, Arsenal Sanchez, Chelsea Hazard and Liverpool Coutinho all using the same system to determine their best player so it isn't the craziest of methods.

My overall point is a lot of people seem to have a personal preference to think Jones is not at the level needed. Fair enough. I certainly think he is good enough to start for us.

Think that was the article I read and that's were I'm getting my notions from.

bangkok

where is that Valencia supporter who said Balague is full of sh1t and there is no way Otamendi will leave Valencia... I wonder is he still as confident now?

Adamocovic

JamboMac wrote: »

The reality is for less then probably the majority Jones would be seen as a massive liability as a Cb and that's why consistently he's played in different positions rather then Cb. I don't think he has the ability to read game which you need to do as a Cb and I'm not saying as cannavaro, I'm saying he's worse at reading situations than McNair and Evans and I'm not saying McNair is the finished article but he shows more promise at his age then Jones does. Jones will only be a utility player for injuries.

The season Jones joined us was he not McNairs age? (20 or so) And did he not go on to play a total of 25+ games for us that season where we finished second in the league. He picked up a good bit of yellow cards, something he has reduced a lot through time but I wouldn't feel McNair has shown more potential than Jones did back in 2011 or so.

homerjay2005

Fake Rio account, but I did chuckle

"For Chelsea fans wondering who the new Leicester manager is, he is the guy who used to manage your club before you started supporting it."

The Moldy Gowl

McNair is over rated because of people's romantic cliche of developing youth prospects
He has a long way to go, sane with Blackett.

Dacelonid

bangkok wrote: »

schneiderlain made neither team :eek:

I knew something was wrong
I couldn't figure out how to get Herrera, Mata, DiMaria and Depay in, so when I did I didn't notice I left someone else out.

JamboMac

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

McNair is over rated because of people's romantic cliche of developing youth prospects
He has a long way to go, sane with Blackett.

Where do you think footballers come from?

Their isn't a farm in Brazil where they hatch them.

Hococop

Dacelonid wrote: »

I knew something was wrong
I couldn't figure out how to get Herrera, Mata, DiMaria and Depay in, so when I did I didn't notice I left someone else out.

That's a great thing, its been a while since we had to try and fit a quality MF in the team