Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 - Mod Post in OP 23/07

J. Marston

Remember this?

Van Persie today: "From my side, there are no hard feelings with how it went. It's part of football, it's part of life. I had a good moment with the players the day before I came to Istanbul so that was special. Then you see that everyone really appreciated my time there, that was important for me.

"I highly appreciate the work of Ed Woodward, the CEO of Manchester United. The way he dealt with this transfer is from a high level, it's very classy, he proved he's a true gentlemen in the way he dealt with the whole situation. Ed, if you're listening, thank you!"

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/transfer-window/i-could-see-manchester-united-exit-coming-robin-van-persie-joins-fenerbahce-31377265.html

Nice one, David McDonnell. Ya numpty.

RobertKK

Andy Mitten on Newstalk said Van Persie was sold as he was earning so much money and given his injury record and not scoring enough, he was sold so United can buy a world class striker, someone younger with a good fitness record.

United talked to Cavani during the Moyes days, but Cavani wanted too much money. So will have to see if he is still wanted.
I missed most of the conversation.

Mitch Connor

RobertKK wrote: »

Andy Mitten on Newstalk said Van Persie was sold as he was earning so much money and given his injury record and not scoring enough, he was sold so United can buy a world class striker, someone younger with a good fitness record.

United talked to Cavani during the Moyes days, but Cavani wanted too much money. So will have to see if he is still wanted.
I missed most of the conservation.

Here is an article from him today speaking on parts of that:

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/sport/sport-opinion/manchester-united-ramos-bale-cavani-9656197

Also says the line coming out of United is that they want to keep ADM.

The_Kew_Tour

Basically said after striker, CB and another defender.

Mitch Connor

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Basically said after striker, CB and another defender.

its an odd one - seemingly a GK, CB and striker if DDG leaves, and 2 CBs and a striker if he stays. Wonder who the two are - casue there isn't a hope of getting Ramos if DDG doesn't go to madrid.

The_Kew_Tour

I have no idea. I still think we will get 1 big name. After that I reckon 2 good players.

Reckon we will buy 3 more players. I think DDG will stay.

Mitch Connor

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I have no idea. I still think we will get 1 big name. After that I reckon 2 good players.

Reckon we will buy 3 more players. I think DDG will stay.

I reckon one of the three is Otamendi, and if DDG leaves it will be Oblak or Lloris that replace him. If DDG stays, i've no idea who the two other targets will be.

I do reckon the forward signing could be late in the window, as I reckon Woodward is going to try go for Bale/Ronaldo for the front line and come to another target if we can't get them in by the time the CL games are starting.

The_Kew_Tour

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I reckon one of the three is Otamendi, and if DDG leaves it will be Oblak or Lloris that replace him. If DDG stays, i've no idea who the two other targets will be.

I do reckon the forward signing could be late in the window, as I reckon Woodward is going to try go for Bale/Ronaldo for the front line and come to another target if we can't get them in by the time the CL games are starting.

Yep I do seeing us trying to get Bale or bring Rinaldo back.

I am more confident then ever that deals will be done.

Otamendi would be lovely purchase.

Mitch Connor

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Yep I do seeing us trying to get Bale or bring Rinaldo back.

I am more confident then ever that deals will be done.

Otamendi would be lovely purchase.

Yeah, i've no doubt we will get a centre back in and I would be surprised if Otamendi isn't signed within the next two weeks. I've also no doubt that we will get a foward player, no idea whom it will be though. Cavani, Kane, Benteke, Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Lacazete - I can see United trying to sign all of them (obviously not actually sign all of them...to be clear)

RobertKK

If one reads the rumours, Ramos has a lot of incentive to force a move. RM pay him a net €6 million a year, United are reported to be offering €10m/€11 million net depending on where you read.

This is going to drag on, Ramos will be all out when he returns from the Real Madrid tour to get his move. It was reported that Madrid said United would need to pay €90 million for him, which is around £63 million.


Otamendi suppose to be leaving Spain if one reads the latest twitter rumours, with United being the destination. His price is suppose to be around £35 million.


Then a world class striker...

The_Kew_Tour

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Yeah, i've no doubt we will get a centre back in and I would be surprised if Otamendi isn't signed within the next two weeks. I've also no doubt that we will get a foward player, no idea whom it will be though. Cavani, Kane, Benteke, Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Lacazete - I can see United trying to sign all of them (obviously not actually sign all of them...to be clear)

I be very happy with Benteke although few who aint so keen on him.

The wage bill is much lighter after selling RVP and Nani too so I can see personal terms etc taking less time and just getting the deals done, no fuss.

With the recent signings United is a attraction again I would say and that is welcome.

DM_7

In May I thought reports were Otamendi, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin and Kane were the main targets for van Gaal?

If remember correctly then the reports were pretty accurate, Kane as he is English and seems to read the game well would fit the bill. Muller would be the ideal signing but Kane could play a similar role. With the solid low risk signings already made United may fancy a more risky signing.

yabadabado

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Yeah, i've no doubt we will get a centre back in and I would be surprised if Otamendi isn't signed within the next two weeks. I've also no doubt that we will get a foward player, no idea whom it will be though. Cavani, Kane, Benteke, Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Lacazete - I can see United trying to sign all of them (obviously not actually sign all of them...to be clear)

Of all those listed I think Lacazette could be the best buy for CF.I cant see Real selling any of their trio and I would have doubts about Kane/Benteke.

Lacazette is young with huge potential.He seems to tick all the boxes and has played on the wings in a front three which may be required of him if he joined.I think Lyon chairman has stated he would be costing €50m which isnt too bad.

Mitch Connor

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I be very happy with Benteke although few who aint so keen on him.

The wage bill is much lighter after selling RVP and Nani too so I can see personal terms etc taking less time and just getting the deals done, no fuss.

With the recent signings United is a attraction again I would say and that is welcome.

As a side comment to all this, and something I've chatted to mates about - were forwards better in years gone by or is it a mixture of nostalgia and a lack of knowledge of the better players that were around at the time.

Looking for a top level striker now? Aguero - and who? United are apparently looking for one and the names being thrown around are those listed above. None of them are awe inspiring imo. None bad players, mind, but you'd not being going WOW (apart from Ronaldo/Bale).

Thinking back to when I first started watching football in England alone you had quality strikers like Shearer, Fowler and Cole. Ferdinand and Wright were handy out too. Were they up there with the best you would have now, or just up against worse defenses? Batistuta, Vialli, Ravenelli, Ronaldo, Romario, Salas - i'm sure there are a load of others not coming to mind right now. Are the top strikers better or worse than those?

Similarly, I reckon centre backs were better around 2000 too. I would say there is maybe a better collection of centre mids and a crap load more 'number 10s' in the last few years.

RobertKK

Ùnited have banned the word 'Kraut'. A word Rooney used when talking to Schweinsteiger.

http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/from-germany-man-united-panic-over-schweinsteiger-kraut-reference

It seems the Bild in Germany found it funny how United are bending over backwards not to offend Germans.

The_Kew_Tour

Mitch Connor wrote: »

As a side comment to all this, and something I've chatted to mates about - were forwards better in years gone by or is it a mixture of nostalgia and a lack of knowledge of the better players that were around at the time.

Looking for a top level striker now? Aguero - and who? United are apparently looking for one and the names being thrown around are those listed above. None of them are awe inspiring imo. None bad players, mind, but you'd not being going WOW (apart from Ronaldo/Bale).

Thinking back to when I first started watching football in England alone you had quality strikers like Shearer, Fowler and Cole. Ferdinand and Wright were handy out too. Were they up there with the best you would have now, or just up against worse defenses? Batistuta, Vialli, Ravenelli, Ronaldo, Romario, Salas - i'm sure there are a load of others not coming to mind right now. Are the top strikers better or worse than those?

Similarly, I reckon centre backs were better around 2000 too. I would say there is maybe a better collection of centre mids and a crap load more 'number 10s' in the last few years.

I do agree with you on CB that's for sure. The lack of real top class CB is not there as it used to be.

As for strikers. I think strikers today are asked to do more, be more team player. Only Andy Cole of any striker United had from 1992-2007 would be comfortable in today's set up as he was comfortable in different positions and was terrible underrated as a playmaker or assist machine.

Sand

DM_7 wrote: »

In May I thought reports were Otamendi, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin and Kane were the main targets for van Gaal?

If remember correctly then the reports were pretty accurate, Kane as he is English and seems to read the game well would fit the bill. Muller would be the ideal signing but Kane could play a similar role. With the solid low risk signings already made United may fancy a more risky signing.

Kane is a bit overpriced for a gamble though and given he is a hometown hero around there he would be very hard to pry out of Spurs to sit on the bench watching Rooney play. His only comment so far has been to say thanks but no thanks when he could have said nothing if his head was turned. I think he's one for the future, if he keeps developing and if he decides to try force a move out of Spurs to win things.

I wouldn't be surprised to see another striker join but I'm coming around to the view that its not an absolute necessity, *if* LVG remains confident in Wilsons ability to progress and *if* Depay can play as a striker when needed.

homerjay2005

One thing is for sure, if we do get Otamendi and a top class striker, while keeping DDG and Di Maria, there are no excuses left for van Gaal, he has to deliver as last season ultimately while we got 4th, it wasn't good enough.

adox

RobertKK wrote: »

Ùnited have banned the word 'Kraut'. A word Rooney used when talking to Schweinsteiger.

I thought it was the other way around?

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

You may consider this a point of pedantry, but I certainly don't - "blind faith" based on a long history of exceptional performance is not actually "blind faith" at all. It's an eminently sensible nod to the fact that past excellence over a long period is a decent indicator of ongoing competence and ability.

That's a very good point. What I'll say then is that people often show too much faith in managers based on their successes, not paying enough attention to their failures and not acknowledging that they make mistakes.

keane2097 wrote: »

If your analysis leads you to a conclusion that someone who has appeared to be an elite level expert has suddenly become an idiot at precisely the same moment they started to do things you don't approve of... well, then...

But that is not what is happening. That is just a silly, hyperbolic misrepresentation of what is happening.

It's possible to say that you think the manager has picked a poor formation, team, whatever, without thinking that he is an idiot. It's possible to disagree with a manager's methods while still acknowledging that they can work.

And it's possible to say that some particular decision by the manager is not the best way of doing things while acknowledging that there may be something forcing the manager's hand that we're unaware of (like a personal issue going on with a player, or pressure from the money men, or an injury or whatever). But always including those caveats is beyond tedious, especially when the opposite side of the discussion rarely involves people using those particular reasons to justify the manager's decisions, but rather are usually justifying his decisions based on purely tactical and player quality reasoning.

keane2097 wrote: »

You're obviously correct that people like LVG and Woodward probably make sub-optimal decisions all the time, but it's probably impossible to know which ones they are because of things being observed through the media/from 90 minutes a week on the pitch. The conclusions being arrived at from viewing this amount of evidence are almost certainly false, or at best true by accident.

By this logic there is no point to discussing strategy, tactics or player selections at all, because we could never draw any conclusions.

keane2097 wrote: »

Arguments went on constantly between those who thought they were just building a squad really badly and those who thought they filled as many positions as possible with decent players, added star quality to the squad in an attempt to maintain/increase the caché of the club and did deals that would improve relationships with important power brokers inside the game etc.

And I would argue that filling as many positions as possible without due regard for how they all fit together, doing deals to improve relationships with power brokers and signing star players to increase the profile of the club are not the best way for building towards success. I'd say that that is just a difference of opinion rather than a lack of acknowledgement of the factors at play that you are outlining.

keane2097 wrote: »

Whenever I see a series of events that look strange, my reaction is to try to think of plausible reasons for them. Plausible reasons do not include things like "Ed Woodward hasn't got a clue", "LVG eventually blundered into a formation that worked" or "LVG couldn't see that Rooney was worse in midfield than Herrera, but I and everyone else on the United thread on boards could".

To my mind, there are maybe three main reasons a person could have for opinions as extreme as the above -

1. the person is an idiot
2. the person derives some satisfaction from believing themselves more correct than the person they are lampooning, or derives some displeasure from the idea that someone else may be as smart as or smarter than them
3. the person has failed to consider plausible alternatives and/or the existence of additional factors in the decision making process that have a material effect.

I agree and agreed that there were issues of squad balance. I'm also certain that if we could see that LVG and Woodward could.
...
In fact this whole section of your reply is nearly very sensible, but in the last line you betray the entire problem you are having. Nobody, but nobody, is ever going to provide you with the explanations you are looking for.

Your reaction to that is to, rightly, take the information we have as all the information we'll ever have. Where you go wrong is to decide that the appropriate thing to then do is make a firm judgement based on the info you have and allow that to become reality in your mind.

That leads you to unbelievably pompous statements like the following that are just laughable:

"I was always interested in seeing Rooney playing in midfield and I've always argued that he has the attributes for it, but, unlike Van Gaal, it didn't take months for me to realise that it wasn't going to work once Rooney went in there this season. Van Gaal doesn't get a pass on that one because he was far too slow to see that it needed changing."

In my wildest dreams I could never countenance making a statement like the above, because the assumptions needed to make it are so much more outlandish than making what you have called an "appeal to authority" by saying "there are bound to be factors at play that we are unaware of" that it becomes a pure absurdity to hold the former position.

First of all, that quote was in response to somebody arguing that we couldn't criticise Van Gaal for picking Rooney in midfield because plenty of us had been interested in seeing him playing there.

But more importantly, I really don't think acknowledging that Van Gaal's obsessiveness with player tactical discipline can mean he sometimes ends up making awkward player selections and that our summer transfer strategy might have been a bit flawed is outlandish at all.

Based on Van Gaal's previous managerial traits I had been saying from the start that we could well see a tactically disciplined player in midfield at the expense of more skilful one. So it is hardly absurd to continue with that reasoning when we then saw Rooney (who was working extremely hard defensively) being picked ahead of Herrera (who had shown a bit of positional indiscipline and hot-headedness up to that point).

Overall, your representation of my response to Van Gaal's choice of Rooney in midfield over Herrera is quite false. There is a solid line of reasoning that can be used to read Van Gaal's standard managerial thinking behind the choice, and my reaction to that was not the "zOh my god, he's an idiot! Everybody knows Herrera is better!" that you are portraying it as.

keane2097 wrote: »

Based on your stated opinions that LVG was unable to see things that many ordinary Joe Soaps could in terms of squad building, player performance, selection etc and your constant references to LVG happening upon a working formation by pure luck I don't agree that I'm being particularly unfair. For eg.,

"The best performances were because Carrick was in midfield and LVG had finally chanced on a functioning formation. Blind was very poor defensively at left-back. Maybe not his fault since he didn't get a lot of games there, but still he was poor."

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96064360&postcount=9149

I stand by that "chanced on a functioning formation" statement. I think it is a ridiculous reach to think that Van Gaal set out with that 4141 formation and line-up - or something close to them - in mind when he was conducting his transfers during the summer and subsequently changing formations every few weeks for the first two thirds of the season. There was clearly loads of experimentation going on and when we finally arrived at a formation that worked it was one which the squad (with it's lack of depth in CM and abundance of strikers) had not been built towards the previous summer. That, to me, fits the description of chancing on a functioning formation and line-up. Although I wouldn't describe it as "blundering into" the formation and line-up, because that might imply that he wasn't experimenting with the specific aim of finding something that worked.

Mitch Connor

whats up with the official twitter account not acknowledging RVP leaving?

Wouldn't have got #20 without him.

THANKS ROB!

gosplan

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I do agree with you on CB that's for sure. The lack of real top class CB is not there as it used to be.

As for strikers. I think strikers today are asked to do more, be more team player. Only Andy Cole of any striker United had from 1992-2007 would be comfortable in today's set up as he was comfortable in different positions and was terrible underrated as a playmaker or assist machine.

I think teams have gotten canny in terms of isolating good forwards ad cutting off the supply to them.

I think a lot of the great midfielders around today would have been played up front from a younger age in the past.

homerjay2005

Mitch Connor wrote: »

whats up with the official twitter account not acknowledging RVP leaving?

Wouldn't have got #20 without him.

THANKS ROB!

They are 8 hours time zone away and have more important things to be doing over there???

Don't think they announce every deal by the way.

Kerrydude1981

adox wrote: »

I thought it was the other way around?

He mentioned the joke he had with Wayne in his interview yesterday,

Schwiiing

Mitch Connor wrote: »

As a side comment to all this, and something I've chatted to mates about - were forwards better in years gone by or is it a mixture of nostalgia and a lack of knowledge of the better players that were around at the time.

Looking for a top level striker now? Aguero - and who? United are apparently looking for one and the names being thrown around are those listed above. None of them are awe inspiring imo. None bad players, mind, but you'd not being going WOW (apart from Ronaldo/Bale).

Thinking back to when I first started watching football in England alone you had quality strikers like Shearer, Fowler and Cole. Ferdinand and Wright were handy out too. Were they up there with the best you would have now, or just up against worse defenses? Batistuta, Vialli, Ravenelli, Ronaldo, Romario, Salas - i'm sure there are a load of others not coming to mind right now. Are the top strikers better or worse than those?

Similarly, I reckon centre backs were better around 2000 too. I would say there is maybe a better collection of centre mids and a crap load more 'number 10s' in the last few years.

Slightly OT but I think football in general is suffering a loss in terms of talent. If you compare the Argentina and Holland sides from the 2014 World Cup against the sides from the 1998 World Cup there aren't many 2014 players who would make it into the 1998 sides. Maybe Messi and Mascherano.

Are kids too rigidly coaches from a young age these days? Thierry Henry said he learned his close control skills from playing on concrete against older kids packed into an inner city car park, not doing dribbling drills around cones.

kippy

Schwiiing wrote: »

Slightly OT but I think football in general is suffering a loss in terms of talent. If you compare the Argentina and Holland sides from the 2014 World Cup against the sides from the 1998 World Cup there aren't many 2014 players who would make it into the 1998 sides. Maybe Messi and Mascherano.

Are kids too rigidly coaches from a young age these days? Thierry Henry said he learned his close control skills from playing on concrete against older kids packed into an inner city car park, not doing dribbling drills around cones.

They get paid and looked after far too well from a young age. Simple as.

twinex

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Thinking back to when I first started watching football in England alone you had quality strikers like Shearer, Fowler and Cole. Ferdinand and Wright were handy out too. Were they up there with the best you would have now, or just up against worse defenses? Batistuta, Vialli, Ravenelli, Ronaldo, Romario, Salas - i'm sure there are a load of others not coming to mind right now. Are the top strikers better or worse than those?

.........Baggio, Signori, Lombardo, young Totti, George Weah vs Baresi, Maldini, Cannavaro, Zambrotta. Channel 4, Sunday afternoons. The Best of the best

Roquentin

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

He mentioned the joke he had with Wayne in his interview yesterday,

dont mention the war

bangkok

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I be very happy with Benteke although few who aint so keen on him.

The wage bill is much lighter after selling RVP and Nani too so I can see personal terms etc taking less time and just getting the deals done, no fuss.

With the recent signings United is a attraction again I would say and that is welcome.

Id say the wage bill is the same or a bit higher. Van Persie, falcao and Nani all gone frees up around 500k a week but the 4 new signings plus Phil Jones and Chris smelling new contract I'd say there's not much difference

Maximus Alexander

Pro. F wrote: »

But always including those caveats is beyond tedious, especially when the opposite side of the discussion rarely involves people using those particular reasons to justify the manager's decisions

Without wanting to get involved in a lengthy back and forth, it's worth pointing out that the opposite side can't use those particular reasons to justify the manager's decisions, because as keane mentioned himself, they are often unknowns. And I think it's fairly safe to say that you'd be quick to shoot someone down if they posited a reason for a managerial decision that they couldn't support as anything more than an assumption or a reasoned inference.

Lord TSC

https://twitter.com/UltraSuristic/status/621059613425733633

Marca: United offering €35m for Otimendi. His non-EU status would make a transfer to Real difficult.

The Moldy Gowl

kippy wrote: »

They get paid and looked after far too well from a young age. Simple as.

That's a lazy answer, with a smudge of begrudgery thrown in.

The_Kew_Tour

Lord TSC wrote: »

https://twitter.com/UltraSuristic/status/621059613425733633

Marca: United offering €35m for Otimendi. His non-EU status would make a transfer to Real difficult.

Give them 40m to be sure.

sky88

Lord TSC wrote: »

https://twitter.com/UltraSuristic/status/621059613425733633

Marca: United offering €35m for Otimendi. His non-EU status would make a transfer to Real difficult.

Hopefully agent Phil Neville can get them to do the deal

The_Kew_Tour

sky88 wrote: »

Hopefully agent Phil Neville can get them to do the deal

I forgot totally about him and Valencia.

aligator_am

All this transfer madness gets me hankering to start playing football manager again

Fakman87

aligator_am wrote: »

All this transfer madness gets me hankering to start playing football manager again

Don't do it man! Only bad can come of it :P

dahat

Di Marizo reporting we are in talks with Sergio Romero( free agent) ,Roma are also.

Ties on with cash + Valdes for Otamendi as per latest rumours on Twatter.

TheBunk1

twinex wrote: »

.........Baggio, Signori, Lombardo, young Totti, George Weah vs Baresi, Maldini, Cannavaro, Zambrotta. Channel 4, Sunday afternoons. The Best of the best

I read that in the voice of Ron Manager from the Fast Show.



"Oh, those Brazilians, you know? Circa 1970? Broke the mould. Theory out the window. Free expression of football. Uncategorisable. Is that a word? It is now! You know? Far cry from small boys in the park, jumpers for goalposts. Rush goalie. Two at the back, three in the middle, four up front, one's gone home for his tea. Beans on toast? Possibly, don't quote me on that. Marvellous."

Mitch Connor

Lord TSC wrote: »

https://twitter.com/UltraSuristic/status/621059613425733633

Marca: United offering €35m for Otimendi. His non-EU status would make a transfer to Real difficult.

considering how insistent they have been on the €50million figure, I can't see us getting him for €15million under that.

Would still reckon we will get him, but probably for around €40million.

Leroy42

What are peoples thoughts on Chico, particularly the rumour about him going to Liverpool?

I always think he is a nice option to have, change of pace in last 20 minutes of a game

kippy

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

That's a lazy answer, with a smudge of begrudgery thrown in.

Do you think so?
Do you not think the treatment, lifestyle and income of these top players from (generally) a very young age will have a major impact on their motivations and levels of interest later down the line? Not of course all of them of course but it is a major change from years gone by.

As far as begrudgery goes, who am I to begrudge a 19/20 year old who works his socks off 365 days a year in the worst conditions possible on his 100K per week plus benefits for the improvement of human kind.....


To be fair to the poster I was replying too, there are definitely major changes in the way and the environment in which kids start and continue to play the game now than back then so there may be some merit in it.

JamboMac

Mitch Connor wrote: »

considering how insistent they have been on the €50million figure, I can't see us getting him for €15million under that.

Would still reckon we will get him, but probably for around €40million.

Have a feeling we might have to wait till the end of the tour before anything happens or at least near the end, gonna be loads of speculation until then.

keith16

Pro. F wrote: »

It's possible to say that you think the manager has picked a poor formation, team, whatever, without thinking that he is an idiot. It's possible to disagree with a manager's methods while still acknowledging that they can work.

By this logic there is no point to discussing strategy, tactics or player selections at all, because we could never draw any conclusions.

I stand by that "chanced on a functioning formation" statement.

Although I wouldn't describe it as "blundering into" the formation and line-up, because that might imply that he wasn't experimenting with the specific aim of finding something that worked.

You contradict yourself a lot here.

Firstly, disagree all you want with tactics. Discussing these and what you may have done differently is very engaging and a valid thing to do.

But saying "he got lucky" or "couldn't see something obvious" comes across as arrogant and implies there is some idiot at the controls.


So he came upon it by chance but didn't blunder into it? What's the difference?

What exactly is the problem here? What exactly are your expectations for the club in it's first season with a new manager and a squad in need of surgery and major rejuvenation?

Would you rather we still had Moyes persisting with the same turgid stuff week in, week out?

Pro. F

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Without wanting to get involved in a lengthy back and forth, it's worth pointing out that the opposite side can't use those particular reasons to justify the manager's decisions, because as keane mentioned himself, they are often unknowns. And I think it's fairly safe to say that you'd be quick to shoot someone down if they posited a reason for a managerial decision that they couldn't support as anything more than an assumption or a reasoned inference.

You can still use the hidden reasons argument without knowing what those reasons are. I think you're wrong to assume that I'd immediately shoot such an argument down every time, it would depend on the context. And in fact I have acknowledged the validity of this issue plenty of times in the past.

However, cutting off the end of my sentence there changes the message too much I think. The point I was making is that there are loads of people who will argue for any given manager decision based on purely tactical and player selection reasoning. Mentioning the caveat - that maybe there may be significant things going on behind the scenes forcing the manager's hand and thus rendering the whole conversation pointless - every time you take part in these discussions is not realistic.

SK1979

I agree with Mitchs post a few hours back, I'm really struggling to think of a centre forward, who's potentially available, that I'd be ecstatic about signing.

On that basis, would you go short term and try get Zlatan? He has two good years left in him at least. Sure, he's going to cost a reasonable transfer fee still (even at 33), and he'll be on massive wages, but I'd be very confident in him contributing 25 goals.

Rossi IRL

Watching the u21s match from last night.

Iv got to say ashley fletcher has turned into a unit of a chap.

Maybe he is just surrounded by small people

kippy

SK1979 wrote: »

I agree with Mitchs post a few hours back, I'm really struggling to think of a centre forward, who's potentially available, that I'd be ecstatic about signing.

On that basis, would you go short term and try get Zlatan? He has two good years left in him at least. Sure, he's going to cost a reasonable transfer fee still (even at 33), and he'll be on massive wages, but I'd be very confident in him contributing 25 goals.

Zlatan does not get on with LvG.

Benteke is the most likely option.

keith16

Pro. F wrote: »

rendering the whole conversation pointless - every time you take part in these discussions is not realistic.

I don't think it becomes pointless at all. You use the clues at your disposal or try and read between the lines. It's not a game of championship manager based purely on player availability and pitching their stats against the oppositions and declaring a winner on paper.

Cos then the whole sport becomes pointless.

Pro. F

keith16 wrote: »

But saying "he got lucky" or "couldn't see something obvious" comes across as arrogant and implies there is some idiot at the controls.

I didn't say either of those things.

keith16 wrote: »

So he came upon it by chance but didn't blunder into it? What's the difference?

I explained the difference.

keith16 wrote: »

What exactly is the problem here? What exactly are your expectations for the club in it's first season with a new manager and a squad in need of surgery and major rejuvenation?

I expected the manager to buy players and pick formations that could have reasonably been expected to work well together.

keith16 wrote: »

Would you rather we still had Moyes persisting with the same turgid stuff week in, week out?

No, and inferring that I would because of some reasoned criticisms of Van Gaal is utterly stupid.