Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Cash for contents - at what point is it wrong?

Options
  • 02-07-2015 9:44pm
    #1
    yellow hen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭


    We were recently bidding on a house and it was suggested that the owner would like cash for the contents. Last I heard, the contents (worth no more than 2k) had a bid of 16k on. Clearly the vendor is trying to hide income from the sale but at what point is illegal or is it?


Comments

  • Options
    #2
    bohsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭bohsfan


    yellow hen wrote: »
    We were recently bidding on a house and it was suggested that the owner would like cash for the contents. Last I heard, the contents (worth no more than 2k) had a bid of 16k on. Clearly the vendor is trying to hide income from the sale but at what point is illegal or is it?

    Encountered this recently when looking to buy. Seller was looking for x amount for the house plus 20k for 'contents'. The contents of the house we worth nowhere near that. Turned out the sellers house was being sold at the banks consent for 'x' and the seller just wanted some cash for their back pocket. We were very uncomfortable about handing over 20k in cash to the EA, with no legal receipt. We pulled out. We were also worried about being seen as evading stamp duty.

    Be very careful would be my advice.


  • Options
    #3
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,423 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Report them to Revenue. And if you have the bank details, the bank.


  • Options
    #4
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    It's fraud.

    It's to avoid stamp duty and to keep the value lower for property tax.


  • Options
    #5
    yellow hen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭yellow hen


    bohsfan wrote: »
    Encountered this recently when looking to buy. Seller was looking for x amount for the house plus 20k for 'contents'. The contents of the house we worth nowhere near that. Turned out the sellers house was being sold at the banks consent for 'x' and the seller just wanted some cash for their back pocket. We were very uncomfortable about handing over 20k in cash to the EA, with no legal receipt. We pulled out. We were also worried about being seen as evading stamp duty.

    Be very careful would be my advice.

    I asked our solicitor but apparently it has become very normal of late. It's incredible that there's no clear line of legality. Annoying thing is that we really wanted this house but like you, I'm uncomfortable with this arrangement.


  • Options
    #6
    yellow hen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭yellow hen


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    It's fraud.

    It's to avoid stamp duty and to keep the value lower for property tax.

    Well in their case im guessing it's avoiding capital gains. I know nothing more about the vendor so I definitely will not be reporting them.

    Would you all avoid this like the plague? I'm torn in our desire for this house.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    yellow hen wrote: »
    Well in their case im guessing it's avoiding capital gains. I know nothing more about the vendor so I definitely will not be reporting them.

    Would you all avoid this like the plague? I'm torn in our desire for this house.

    Yep, you're the one Revenue will chase re property tax and stamp duty.


  • Options
    #8
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    I'm curious as to when the cash is handed over - before or after contracts?


  • Options
    #9
    yellow hen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭yellow hen


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    Yep, you're the one Revenue will chase re property tax and stamp duty.

    i completely understand what you're saying and the moral inappropriateness BUT is giving cash for some contents wrong? And if not, even though €16k is obscene, who is to say the contents were not worth that? E.g couldn't I technically be purchasing plasma screens, hi-Tec kitchen appliances, handmade curtains etc.


  • Options
    #10
    yellow hen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭yellow hen


    3DataModem wrote: »
    I'm curious as to when the cash is handed over - before or after contracts?

    I'm not sure. We have pulled out so never got to those questions.


  • Options
    #11
    Senecio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 971 ✭✭✭Senecio


    It's wrong when the cash amount exceeds the value of the contents. Simple.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    yellow hen wrote: »
    i completely understand what you're saying and the moral inappropriateness BUT is giving cash for some contents wrong? And if not, even though €16k is obscene, who is to say the contents were not worth that? E.g couldn't I technically be purchasing plasma screens, hi-Rex kitchen appliances, handmade curtains etc.

    And if you were, that 16k should have been included in the sale price and an inventory of included contents provided. It cannot be a separate transaction simultaneous or close to the property purchase.


  • Options
    #13
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    yellow hen wrote: »
    i completely understand what you're saying and the moral inappropriateness BUT is giving cash for some contents wrong? And if not, even though €16k is obscene, who is to say the contents were not worth that? E.g couldn't I technically be purchasing plasma screens, hi-Tec kitchen appliances, handmade curtains etc.

    You said the contents were worth 2k


  • Options
    #14
    yellow hen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭yellow hen


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    You said the contents were worth 2k

    I know that but how do revenue know that and then chase the purchaser for defrauding them on stamp?


  • Options
    #15
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    yellow hen wrote: »
    I know that but how do revenue know that and then chase the purchaser for defrauding them on stamp?

    Because there is an inventory and a receipt.


  • Options
    #16
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    yellow hen wrote: »
    I know that but how do revenue know that and then chase the purchaser for defrauding them on stamp?

    All it takes is one disgruntled would be purchaser to make a call or send an email and the can of worms is opened.


  • Options
    #17
    yellow hen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭yellow hen


    athtrasna wrote: »
    And if you were, that 16k should have been included in the sale price and an inventory of included contents provided. It cannot be a separate transaction simultaneous or close to the property purchase.

    That's the answer I'm after, thank you. Ok much as it pains me, I think it's time to give this wide berth.


  • Options
    #18
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,423 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    yellow hen wrote: »
    Well in their case im guessing it's avoiding capital gains. I know nothing more about the vendor so I definitely will not be reporting them.

    Would you all avoid this like the plague? I'm torn in our desire for this house.
    It's to defraud the bank where the property is in negative equity.

    It's to defraud the Revenue of stamp duty and capital gains tax, possibly others.

    It's to defraud the Local Government Fund of Local Property Tax.

    When you sell the property, you may face an increased bill for Capital Gains Tax.

    How does prison time sound?


  • Options
    #19
    yellow hen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭yellow hen


    athtrasna wrote: »
    All it takes is one disgruntled would be purchaser to make a call or send an email and the can of worms is opened.

    I would love to shop the estate agent who facilitates this but I'm guessing he would legally have no guilt or liability


  • Options
    #20
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    It costs you nothing to send an email to Revenue. It's up to them to then decide whether the agent is worth keeping an eye on or not.


  • Options
    #21
    Millem
    Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    Is the bid under the market value?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Victor wrote:
    How does prison time sound?

    Especially for offences involving the revenue. Remember the garlic importer?


  • Options
    #23
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    This type of thing was really common in Spain a few years ago. It is the first time, I, have heard of something similar here.


  • Options
    #24
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    This type of thing was really common in Spain a few years ago. It is the first time, I, have heard of something similar here.
    I heard of it - and encountered it - 40 years ago.


  • Options
    #25
    Millem
    Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I heard of it - and encountered it - 40 years ago.

    My parents bought the contents on both their places in Spain Over 20 years ago.


  • Options
    #26
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,344 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    athtrasna wrote: »
    And if you were, that 16k should have been included in the sale price and an inventory of included contents provided. It cannot be a separate transaction simultaneous or close to the property purchase.

    Of course it can be simultaneous as the transaction under Law Soc docs doesn't have to include contents. However, the sale needs to be disclosed to all parties involved, principally the buyers and sellers solicitors.


Advertisement