Punished financially for getting promoted Public Sector

Zipppy

Monife wrote:

I just found out from people in my own (public not civil) department that even if you get another job in the public or civil service at the same grade, you go back to the first point of the scale even if you're art the top, now that's f*cked up!

I think that's the general rule but, AFAIK, exceptions can be made if DEPR agree...

Lux23

There's a very odd situation developing in my place of work, none of the EOs most of whom have worked at that level for 7 or 8 years want to apply for the HEO roles so they are probably going to hire people outside of the organisation who will have less experience than the people they will be managing.

It might suit me though as I am only here since February, but then again it might be years before a promotion comes up.

billyhead

If your a serving civil servant say at CO level and you are on the top rate of the scale and get promotion to EO you cannot drop down to the lowest payscale of EO if it is less then your current salary. You will start as an EO on the nearest salary scale to your current salary. I presume moving from the public service i.e semi state body to the civil service works differently but I know that CWOs who moved from the HSE to the Dept of Social Protection did not lose out in that they were automatically promoted to a HEO grade.

Zipppy

Lux23 wrote:

There's a very odd situation developing in my place of work, none of the EOs most of whom have worked at that level for 7 or 8 years want to apply for the HEO roles so they are probably going to hire people outside of the organisation who will have less experience than the people they will be managing.

Is HEO not an internal promotion grade ?

open competition. nuff said

Lux23

Zipppy wrote: »

Is HEO not an internal promotion grade ?

No, they are advertising a position at the moment so don't think so.

Zipppy

Any updates on this?
Not looking good for me....LA to Civil service and I have to start on min? What madness is this?

Slydice

Zipppy wrote: »

It's being clarified

Sounds like they said no?

Cakerbaker

Do you have the conditions of service info booklet that was put up when the competition was advertised? (A friend of mine saved a copy so I have it). In this it states "Different pay and conditions may apply, if, immediately prior to appointment, the appointee is already a serving Civil Servant or Public Servant". I'm a Civil Servant so will be relying on Circular 34/1977. While this may not apply to Public Servants, you've to wonder why they stated different conditions "may" also apply to public servants if you're now being told you have to start at the bottom?

Zipppy

Slydice wrote: »

Sounds like they said no?

DPER have said no....I'm going to try unions in both sectors before I refuse anything..don't wish to go setting a precedent :rolleyes:

Zipppy

Cakerbaker wrote: »

Do you have the conditions of service info booklet that was put up when the competition was advertised? (A friend of mine saved a copy so I have it). In this it states "Different pay and conditions may apply, if, immediately prior to appointment, the appointee is already a serving Civil Servant or Public Servant". I'm a Civil Servant so will be relying on Circular 34/1977. While this may not apply to Public Servants, you've to wonder why they stated different conditions "may" also apply to public servants if you're now being told you have to start at the bottom?

Exactly...misleading...

I wouldn't have bothered with all the hassle and stress of the competition if I'd known this at the outset....I'm not letting go yet though :cool:

AprilMayJune

If you search online there's a list of public services departments that you can bring incremental credit over from. In general you can't from any commercial semi state body not sure if that's an area your coming from.

Edited to add its circular 40/2007

Won't let me add url

Zipppy

Just had a look at that circular
..not sure if its relevant... I'm coming from local authority btw.
It appears that croke park changed the rules....but I'm investigating
If this the case it severely limits movement between wider PS and CS .. which is something croke pk was to strengthen....

beauf

Seems like a tactic to stop people coming in and jumping past them for promotion.

Zipppy

beauf wrote: »

Seems like a tactic to stop people coming in and jumping past them for promotion.

I don't see the connection?

Jonathan

beauf wrote: »

Seems like a tactic to stop people coming in and jumping past them for promotion.

Not really. Just D/PER trying to keep costs down by any means possible.

martingriff

Zipppy wrote: »

Just had a look at that circular
..not sure if its relevant... I'm coming from local authority btw.
It appears that croke park changed the rules....but I'm investigating
If this the case it severely limits movement between wider PS and CS .. which is something croke pk was to strengthen....

If its an internal promotion job then you would start at a higher scale however as I see it as it is an external job interview it a job interview for x job NOT a promotion no matter where you are.

Zipppy

Jonathan wrote: »

Not really. Just D/PER trying to keep costs down by any means possible.

So now we will have a situation where public servants won't have any interest in open CS AO HEO EO competitions....so only existing CS or private sector might have interest...excluding PS and bringing in private sector employees only serves to increase overall PS pay bill (existing PS would most likely not be replaced)

Yup...madness...

martingriff

Zipppy wrote: »

So now we will have a situation where public servants won't have any interest in open CS AO HEO EO competitions....so only existing CS or private sector might have interest...excluding PS and bringing in private sector employees only serves to increase overall PS pay bill (existing PS would most likely not be replaced)

Yup...madness...

But an external posts are a job interview not a promotional interview. If you were in a job in the private sector and earned x amount and then went for a job interview in another company would you expect to get over your current wage because you seem to be going up in the world

Zipppy

martingriff wrote: »

But an external posts are a job interview not a promotional interview. If you were in a job in the private sector and earned x amount and then went for a job interview in another company would you expect to get over your current wage because you seem to be going up in the world

Yes
You'd hardly be going for a job paying less

martingriff

Zipppy wrote: »

Yes
You'd hardly be going for a job paying less

Okay if the job paid more that was advertised I agree but lets say you worked in a job for say 35,000 euros and you went for a job that said pay scale between 30,000 euro and 50,000 would you expect they start you at 35,000 euros.

Zipppy

martingriff wrote: »

Okay if the job paid more that was advertised I agree but lets say you worked in a job for say 35,000 euros and you went for a job that said pay scale between 30,000 euro and 50,000 would you expect they start you at 35,000 euros.

Well in the private sector you could negotiate that.....

In this case it's states existing PS and CS may have different starting salary (ie not be on min scale)
I'm assuming existing CS would start on existing pay scale so why include PS in that statement when it's clearly not the case...it's misleading and needs to be challenged....which I intend doing..

martingriff

Zipppy wrote: »

Well in the private sector you could negotiate that.....

In this case it's states existing PS and CS may have different starting salary (ie not be on min scale)
I'm assuming existing CS would start on existing pay scale so why include PS in that statement when it's clearly not the case...it's misleading and needs to be challenged....which I intend doing..

I wish you all the best in that and it is a bit misleading and shows you should always read everthing. Hey I work in the civil service but by going through an external interview you did not get promoted you got a new job.

Zipppy

martingriff wrote: »

Hey I work in the civil service but by going through an external interview you did not get promoted you got a new job.

So you start at min pay scale ? :eek:

beauf

Jonathan wrote: »

Not really. Just D/PER trying to keep costs down by any means possible.

Sure. But the effect is that IMO its discourages PS people from applying to CS roles at the same grade if they lose money and time in grade that took a long time to acquire. You'd really have to try and jump a grade to switch to the CS for it to be worthwhile.

Unless it was a lateral career move, for some other reason.

I would be surprised if this hadn't been agreed in advance with the unions. As such they're likely to favor which ever side has the larger membership. So I would expect you'd be fighting a battle that's already lost.

I'd also consider how a lateral move from PS to CS at the same grade, effects promotion opportunities. It might be a bigger pond, more opportunities but negated by increased competition. If you are blocked where you are, it might be worth it.

martingriff

Zipppy wrote: »

So you start at min pay scale ? :eek:

If I had to yes if it serves me in the long run.

Jonathan

martingriff wrote: »

If I had to yes if it serves me in the long run.

You'd be retired before you'd make it back. Take for example the AO scale, the difference between point 1 and point 12 (LSI2) is €28,372.

Zipppy

Jonathan wrote: »

You'd be retired before you'd make it back. Take for example the AO scale, the difference between point 1 and point 12 (LSI2) is €28,372.

In my case it would take me 8 years to get back to where I was and lose €58000 in the meantime :eek:

Monife

Why is it that if you move from the CS to the PS and have more than 3 years service, you can get incremental credit but not the other way round?

It's about time the whole thing was merged. The PS and CS are all Public Service and should be treated as such. The differences are so messy at this stage.

Zipppy

Monife wrote: »

Why is it that if you move from the CS to the PS and have more than 3 years service, you can get incremental credit but not the other way round?

It's about time the whole thing was merged. The PS and CS are all Public Service and should be treated as such. The differences are so messy at this stage.

if you run for election, I'll vote for you