UFC 189 - McGregor v Mendes *READ MOD WARNING IN 1st POST*

walshb

Saipanne wrote: »

He did ok with striking, but most of his time standing up was spent pinned back to the cage because of McGregors pressure. You can even hear the commentators saying that Mendes can't continue like this.

True. He juts couldn't compete on an even field whilst standing, but he still tried very hard to, and had a fair few success moments. Credit to Conor's chin, because Chad nailed him clean several times with short and hard shots.

Pulse8

DrPhilG wrote: »

That was me. I'll add it again tomorrow when I'm in work.

That'd be great man, thx a mil

Ken Shamrock

Mellor wrote: »

What do you mean "Gracie style"?
It's a bit much to attribute all BJJ to the Gracies at this stage. Conor source of BJJ wasn't the Gracies.

I don't think he was attributing all of BJJ to the gracie's. The gracies have their own form of BJJ(or at least they think they do), as do brazil, as do Japan. I'm sure you're well aware.

walshb wrote: »

As Conor said Mendes is a bantamweight. Maybe 135 lbs is a bit too low for him, but 145 seems too high for him given his physical make up.

Well Mendes has been doing quite well in the featherweight division for a Bantamweight. McGregor is the one fighting in the wrong division. He's very tall for 145, he makes crazy weight cuts and everyone he's in the octagon with is smaller than him. It Is an advantage but guys like Jose,Mendes,Edgar shouldn't have a problem fighting someone because they have 3 inches on them.

slicus ricus

walshb wrote: »

True. He juts couldn't compete on an even field whilst standing, but he still tried very hard to, and had a fair few success moments. Credit to Conor's chin, because Chad nailed him clean several times with short and hard shots.

Both of them had distinct advantages in their strongest discipline, Chad in wrestling, Conor in striking. Their certainly wasn't an even playing field in either department. When it came to BJJ, it's hard to tell who is the stronger because we only got to see one dimension of each of their games - Chad on top, passing guard and going for guillotine and Conor defending in his guard and using excellent technique to avoid the guillotine.

The key point in the fight is that Conor was able to prevent Chad from using his advantage (wrestling) to finish the fight through his use of defensive grappling but Chad was not able to prevent Conor from using his advantage (striking) to finish the fight.

For someone to beat Conor, they are either going to have to be able to match him in the stand up department or will have to be able to avoid stand up exchanges with him.

Easy Rod

walshb wrote: »

All true. He is very blocky and muscular. This would see him find it hard to get to 135 lbs. The fight was won based off reach. Simple as that. p4p I thought Chad was every bit as good if not better than Conor.

That doesn't really make much sense. If the reach was even then Mendes wouldn't have the body type to control the wrestling aspect and get the takedowns and keep Conor on his back. It's like saying if Conor was 8ft tall he'd destroy everybody.

When two people fight at the same weight class you can't really bring p4p into it?

The old saying about aunties and testicles comes to mind.

Mellor

Ken Shamrock wrote: »

I don't think he was attributing all of BJJ to the gracie's. The gracies have their own form of BJJ(or at least they think they do), as do brazil, as do Japan. I'm sure you're well aware.

I'm honestly not aware what that's supposed to mean. Which is why I asked.

How does the gracie form of Bjj differ from the Brazilain form?
What's japanese form BJJ?
Are yous confusing japanese jiujutsu with BJJ?

MartyMcFly84

Brazilian Jiu jitsu is Brazlian jiu jitsu regardless what country you train it in.

The Gracies are credited with being the founding family of BJJ. However these days they hang onto "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" really for marketing purposes essentially.

I suppose one could argue that Gracies practised Jiu Jitsu as an effective self defence art.

Popular BJJ is often associated with sport BJJ which uses techniques within the modern rule set of BJJ. Which did not exist when the Gracie family first adapted the traditional Japanese art and trained/taught others.

Ken Shamrock

Mellor wrote: »

I'm honestly not aware what that's supposed to mean. Which is why I asked.

How does the gracie form of Bjj differ from the Brazilain form?
What's japanese BJJ?

Are you confusing japanese jiujutsu with BJJ?

Haha no I'm not confusing them I just forgot to take out the B, as I'm so used to referring to BJJ rather than JJ. As far as I know there is not much difference, I've watched a lot of the Gracies training, sparring, fighting etc and really it just seems to be a more ground based form of JJ as opposed to the high emphasis on Judo which Is used in BJJ.

slicus ricus

Here's a fairly basic breakdown of the origins of BJJ:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-ji:Dtsu#Origins

You could write a book about this and really only those who practice the sport will know the nuances of it but the above link covers the basics pretty well.

walshb

Easy Rod wrote: »

When two people fight at the same weight class you can't really bring p4p into it?

The old saying about aunties and testicles comes to mind.

True, and well spotted. I knew when using p4p I was incorrect. More that I was impressed with Mendes given the physical disadvantages he had in the stand up trading.

MartyMcFly84

I've watched a lot of the Gracies training, sparring, fighting etc and really it just seems to be a more ground based form of JJ as opposed to the high emphasis on Judo which Is used in BJJ.

There very little Judo used in BJJ. It is essentially 90% a ground based art.The take down is only worth 2 points, so its not always the deciding factor in matches.

Competitors can start off on the ground or jump guard. So there is little opportunity to effectively use Judo. That not say all Judo techniques cannot be used, but its rare enough that they are.

Mr. CooL ICE

I always though JJ was an unprotected term that didn't really specify anything. Depending on who you talk to, it's karate with grappling, grappling with strikes, etc.

If anything, I always thought BJJ was a misleading term and that Brazilian Judo would be more descriptive because of where it came from.

Ken Shamrock

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

There very little Judo used in BJJ. It is essentially 90% a ground based art.The take down is only worth 2 points, so its not always the deciding factor in matches.

Competitors can start off on the ground or jump guard. So there is little opportunity to effectively use Judo. That not say all Judo techniques cannot be used, but its rare enough that they are.

BJJ was founded upon the fundamentals of Judo, the idea that a smaller person can manipulate a larger one goes hand In hand with the philosophy of BJJ. Maybe in competitions there Is little Judo used. But in the teaching of the martial art Judo is effectively your stand up.

While BJJ is a ground based art form in the sport of MMA and indeed In the teachings of BJJ, Judo has definitely had a huge influence on the art I'm not sure why you would try and say otherwise?

Mellor

Ken Shamrock wrote: »

Haha no I'm not confusing them I just forgot to take out the B, as I'm so used to referring to BJJ rather than JJ. As far as I know there is not much difference, I've watched a lot of the Gracies training, sparring, fighting etc and really it just seems to be a more ground based form of JJ as opposed to the high emphasis on Judo which Is used in BJJ.

JJJ isn't very like BJJ at all from what I've seen.

And Gracie JIuJitsu isn't more ground based than BJJ, it's the same thing. Gracie JiuJitsu is just a marketing term really.

There are different styles of BJJ, but I don't think that it's a case of Gracie vrs Brazillian style. Two champions from the same area, even the same school could have different styles.
Even Gracie's vary. Kron Gracie has a very different style to Rener/Ryron (from Gracie breakdown).

Afaik SBG has nothing to do with a Gracie schools.
So I just found it strange to refer to it Gracie style BJJ.

MartyMcFly84

BJJ was founded upon the fundamentals of Judo, the idea that a smaller person can manipulate a larger one goes hand In hand with the philosophy of BJJ. Maybe in competitions there Is little Judo used. But in the teaching of the martial art Judo is effectively your stand up.

While BJJ is a ground based art form in the sport of MMA and indeed In the teachings of BJJ, Judo has definitely had a huge influence on the art I'm not sure why you would try and say otherwise?

Because I train both Judo and BJJ.

Mitsuyo Maeda the guy who taught Carlos and Helio Gracie had a very ground based Judo style. He was an expert in this area. At the time Judo was far less restrictive than it is now in terms of techniques that are allowed to be used.

Helio being small struggled with many of the typical Judo throws against bigger guys. He essentially cut a large part of Judo out of the game and dedicated almost totally to a ground based art where height and size advantages were less of a factor than getting thrown around by a big guy.

Modern Judo is very different to what was shown to Carlos and Helio

Modern BJJ is has evolved further from what the Gracies originally taught others. Essentially becoming its own martial art. I did not say Judo has not influenced the art. I am saying there is little opportunity to use many Judo techniques in modern BJJ.

Ken Shamrock

Mellor wrote: »

JJJ isn't very like BJJ at all from what I've seen.

And Gracie JIuJitsu isn't more ground based than BJJ, it's the same thing. Gracie JiuJitsu is just a marketing term really.

There are different styles of BJJ, but I don't think that it's a case of Gracie vrs Brazillian style. Two champions from the same area, even the same school could have different styles.
Even Gracie's vary. Kron Gracie has a very different style to Rener/Ryron (from Gracie breakdown).

Afaik SBG has nothing to do with a Gracie schools.
So I just found it strange to refer to it Gracie style BJJ.

When did I say JJJ was similar to BJJ? You asked about the different styles and said you didn't know much about It, I just listed a few styles, Gracie JiuJitsu is more ground based..."Sibling Hélio Gracie gradually further developed Gracie Jiu Jitsu as a softer, pragmatic adaptation from judo that focused on ground fighting"

You're just saying what Marty said now about Gracie JiuJitsu when a minute ago you knew nothing about It?

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Because I train both Judo and BJJ.

Mitsuyo Maeda the guy who taught Carlos and Helio Gracie had a very ground based Judo style. He was an expert in this area. At the time Judo was far less restrictive than it is now in terms of techniques that are allowed to be used.

Helio being small struggled with many of the typical Judo throws against bigger guys. He essentially cut a large part of Judo out of the game and dedicated almost totally to a ground based art where height and size advantages were less of a factor than getting thrown around by a big guy.

Modern Judo is very different to what was shown to Carlos and Helio

Modern BJJ is has evolved further from what the Gracies originally taught others. Essentially becoming its own martial art. I did not say Judo has not influenced the art. I am saying there is little opportunity to use many Judo techniques in modern BJJ.

Sorry, I misunderstood. Do you find the "ground game" submissions etc extremely similar training both styles? How long have you been doing them?

Mellor

Ken Shamrock wrote: »

When did I say JJJ was similar to BJJ?

I took that as your meaning here:

Ken Shamrock wrote: »

Haha no I'm not confusing them I just forgot to take out the B, as I'm so used to referring to BJJ rather than JJ. As far as I know there is not much difference

You asked about the different styles and said you didn't know much about It, I just listed a few styles, Gracie JiuJitsu is more ground based...

Where did I say I didn't know much about it?
I asked the other poster what he meant by "gracie style BJJ" because it was a means nothing imo, and becsuse Conor isn't from a Gracie lineage.

The styles you listed don't exist.
There's is no difference between Brazilian and Gracie Jiu jitsu.
There quote refers to it being a ground based form of judo, not BJJ.

You're just saying what Marty said now about Gracie JiuJitsu when a minute ago you knew nothing about It?

Lol,
If there are similarities between what I said and what Marty said, maybe that's because it's the truth.

Ken Shamrock

Mellor wrote: »

I took that as your meaning here:

I am very confused I thought here you were saying there Is no difference at all

Mellor wrote: »

JJJ isn't very like BJJ at all from what I've seen.

Mellor wrote: »

Where did I say I didn't know much about it?

Here

Mellor wrote: »

I'm honestly not aware what that's supposed to mean. Which is why I asked.

That was in response to me saying "I don't think he was attributing all of BJJ to the gracie's. The gracies have their own form of BJJ(or at least they think they do), as do brazil, as do Japan. I'm sure you're well aware."

Mellor wrote: »

The styles you listed don't exist.

Brazilian jiu Jitsu, Japanese Jiu Jitsu and "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" do not exist. Ok, I'll inform the world.

Mellor wrote: »

Lol,
If there are similarities between what I said and what Marty said, maybe that's because it's the truth.

Lol, The only similarity Is that you said Gracie Jiu Jitsu is only for marketing after Marty had just made that statement, where as before Marty came along you said you did not understand It... You'll notice I also said (At least they think they do) in reference to Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

I am not 100% sure of all of the differences between JJJ,BJJ and/or Gracie JJ If there any, nor did I ever claim to be an expert on the subject.

Davei141

Turns out Rory MacDonald doesn't get PPV points, so he could have potentially only earned 59k for putting on that performance. Doesn't seem right at all.

Zero-Cool

Davei141 wrote: »

Turns out Rory MacDonald doesn't get PPV points, so he could have potentially only earned 59k for putting on that performance. Doesn't seem right at all.

No need to worry about Rory, I'm 99% sure Dana had a big fat brown envelope waiting for him backstage plus the 50k FOTN bonus

walshb

The performance he put on should have nothing to do with his earnings. Maybe if he tidied up his defense he wouldn't have to take those beatings. Shouldn't get extra kudos or rewards just because he gets bloodied! 59 k is still a lot of money for 20 minutes work.

Davei141

sheehy83 wrote: »

No need to worry about Rory, I'm 99% sure Dana had a big fat brown envelope waiting for him backstage plus the 50k FOTN bonus

Yeah but add the 50k FoTN (which he had to look like a reanimated zombie for), along with the brown envelope hes probably getting 1/10th of what Conor gets, 1/3rd of Chads and probably half of Robbie's take home pay. It would want to be a very fat envelope.

Zero-Cool

Well UFC is a business first and rewards those who pull in views. Rory could have come out of that without a scratch and would be still getting the same bonus imo. It was a brilliant fight, no one would reward getting busted open if it was a crap fight.

Davei141

walshb wrote: »

The performance he put on should have nothing to do with his earnings. Maybe if he tidied up his defense he wouldn't have to take those beatings. Shouldn't get extra kudos or rewards just because he gets bloodied! 59 k is still a lot of money for 20 minutes work.

:rolleyes:

Point is he is in a championship fight on a card rumoured to make a fortune fighting one of the baddest guys on the planet and he is getting 59k.

CurryFlavoured

walshb wrote: »

The performance he put on should have nothing to do with his earnings. Maybe if he tidied up his defense he wouldn't have to take those beatings. Shouldn't get extra kudos or rewards just because he gets bloodied! 59 k is still a lot of money for 20 minutes work.

Oh come on, 59k for an athlete at the top of a popular sport isnt much considering they only fight 2-3 times a year generally. I'd imagine his next contract will be bigger though.

MartyMcFly84

Sorry, I misunderstood. Do you find the "ground game" submissions etc extremely similar training both styles? How long have you been doing them?

Roughly about 8 years. More BJJ than Judo, but I enjoy both.

BJJ allows a greater range of submission techniques than Judo in the modern rule set.

The amount of time spent on the ground in most Judo matches is very small. You are given a very limited amount of time to get a submission once the fight hits the matt.

In BJJ you could spend the whole match setting up one submission. The Submission game in BJJ is generally much more refined as players spend much more time on submissions and its the eventual goal of the art. In Judo the focus is on scoring an ippon (throwing your opponent flat on their back), the limited ground game really only comes in if you have failed to do this. So much more time is spent learning how to throw than refining submission technique, in my opinion in Judo submissions are often rushed and if you risk position its not a big issue as you will be shortly stood up if it doesn't work. In BJJ and MMA position is everything.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

The performance he put on should have nothing to do with his earnings. Maybe if he tidied up his defense he wouldn't have to take those beatings. Shouldn't get extra kudos or rewards just because he gets bloodied! 59 k is still a lot of money for 20 minutes work.

Oh yeah I forgot they just show up and fight. Not like there's months of training/promotion/media obligations/dieting/weight cutting before hand :rolleyes:

finatron

walshb wrote: »

The performance he put on should have nothing to do with his earnings. Maybe if he tidied up his defense he wouldn't have to take those beatings. Shouldn't get extra kudos or rewards just because he gets bloodied! 59 k is still a lot of money for 20 minutes work.

It's not 20minutes work do how long are they training for this 1 fight

Davei141

Hes just a boxing troll.

slicus ricus

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Oh come on, 59k for an athlete at the top of a popular sport isnt much considering they only fight 2-3 times a year generally. I'd imagine his next contract will be bigger though.

Exactly, this was his only fight so far this year and he probably won't fight again in 2015 due to his injuries. $59k is not that much when you consider his training expenses, the cost of setting up camps, etc.

In fairness, at least he got the $50k bonus which goes some way to reward him for the spectacle of a fight that he and Lawlor put on.

Overall, he should get more in my opinion.

Davei141

slicus ricus wrote: »

Exactly, this was his only fight so far this year and he probably won't fight again in 2015 due to his injuries. $59k is not that much when you consider his training expenses, the cost of setting up camps, etc.

In fairness, at least he got the $50k bonus which goes some way to reward him for the spectacle of a fight that he and Lawlor put on.

Add in tax and all of a sudden its withered down even further.

walshb

Was he ripped off or cheated? If not then that is what he deserves. The performance shouldn't come into it. They have FOTN for that.

walshb

Nobody gets paid for training. You get paid for your fight.

Davei141

There you have it, 59k for 20 minutes. If he fought for a few hours he would make a fortune!

Saipanne

Davei141 wrote: »

Hes just a boxing troll.

Boring and one dimensional... just like boxing!

slicus ricus

walshb wrote: »

Was he ripped off or cheated? If not then that is what he deserves. The performance shouldn't come into it. They have FOTN for that.

He was neither ripped off nor cheated, just not rewarded correctly given his position on the card and the fact that he and Lawlor put on the fight of the year. Mendes was the challenger in a title fight, he got 8 times more than MacDonald!

walshb wrote: »

Nobody gets paid for training. You get paid for your fight.

The level of title challenger in the UFC is the highest level possible in MMA, aside from being the champion obviously. For guys at that level to make very little profit in a year following training expenses is criminal, particularly when they perform like MacDonald did on Saturday night.

Mellor

Ken Shamrock wrote: »

Brazilian jiu Jitsu, Japanese Jiu Jitsu and "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" do not exist. Ok, I'll inform the world.

You said japanese, gracie, and Brazilian BJJ. Those aren't styles of BJJ, that was my point. You explained the typo afterwards, so thats fair enough.

The only similarity Is that you said Gracie Jiu Jitsu is only for marketing after Marty had just made that statement, where as before Marty came along you said you did not understand It...

I think you've misunderstood what I was asking. Hense the confusing posts on both sides

I was asking the OP was what he meant by Gracie style BJJ, in relation to Conor, that's all. I didn't need Marty to explain GJJ marketing (something they do quite well imo)

Ken Shamrock

I have a feeling Rory will be making a few more dollars in the years to come. He's an excellent talent and will go far, might even become champion if that bastard Lawler decides to retire :pac:

cowzerp

Davei141 wrote: »

Hes just a boxing troll.

That is out of order, His opinion is he got the contract he agreed to and that is a fact

The bonuses are there for brilliant fights

Boxers have died fighting for less so it's a silly debate really, you could argue that the overall wages are not good enough but the fact of the matter is they are what they are and they get what is agreed.

Davei141

cowzerp wrote: »

That is out of order, His opinion is he got the contract he agreed to and that is a fact

The bonuses are there for brilliant fights

Boxers have died fighting for less so it's a silly debate really, you could argue that the overall wages are not good enough but the fact of the matter is they are what they are and they get what is agreed.

Being they are what they are and they get what is agreed is not an argument against whether they deserve more or less. Most MMA fighters don't exactly have much leverage with the UFC so get screwed. Boxers that have died for less i doubt you would have walshb going on saying he was paid what he deserved, dying in the ring for peanuts.

Just watched it again with this commentary synced up to it. Interesting to hear as a complete MMA newbie. I didn't realise how bad Conor's ground game was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7genJXNfa6s

Ken Shamrock

Deleted User wrote: »

Just watched it again with this commentary synced up to it. Interesting to hear as a complete MMA newbie. I didn't realise how bad Conor's ground game was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7genJXNfa6s

Bad In what sense exactly?

Saipanne

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just watched it again with this commentary synced up to it. Interesting to hear as a complete MMA newbie. I didn't realise how bad Conor's ground game was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7genJXNfa6s

How was it bad? What did Mendes actually do with all that time on the ground?

Ken Shamrock

Saipanne wrote: »

How was it bad? What did Mendes actually do with all that time on the ground?

Wore McGregor out, disrupted his breathing, busted him open landed several hard elbows, controlled the fight, opened up the cut some more, exposed McGregor's take down defence, scored several points. Basically made life difficult for his opponent.

Well according to the people commentating on that, McGregor couldn't defend the takedowns very well. He went to ground too easily. Those elbows were doing a ton of damage. Honestly, I'm just parroting what those guys said. They were a lot more critical on Conor than Joe Rogan was. I'd have to watch it again to be more precise. Skip to 9:30.

walshb

Boxing is one of the oldest and most established sports on earth. Many many get in the ring for a lot less than what McDonald got into the ring for, and every bit as dangerous, if not more so. Outside of MMA circles nobody knows who he is. The argument of paying expenses is nonsense. That's life. We all have to pay expenses. 59 k for a nobody in the world of sport for 20 minutes work is decent enough. If and when he becomes a name and markets himself accordingly and creates a following then he may well deserve bigger bucks, and I would not in the slightest begrudge him that. They bloody well earn it.

Overall point stands. He shouldn't be getting extra, or automatically deserve extra because he gets bloodied up!

Maybe the forum could get rid of the whole troll nonsense when differing opinions are aired. It's stale, and tiring. That from a part time MMA fan!

Saipanne

Ken Shamrock wrote: »

Wore McGregor out, disrupted his breathing, busted him open landed several hard elbows, controlled the fight, opened up the cut some more, exposed McGregor's take down defence, scored several points. Basically made life difficult for his opponent.

The net effect of which was to wear himself out while McGregor didn't seem "wore out" at all.

Good strategy.

Ken Shamrock

Deleted User wrote: »

Well according to the people commentating on that, McGregor couldn't defend the takedowns very well. He went to ground too easily. Those elbows were doing a ton of damage. Honestly, I'm just parroting what those guys said. They were a lot more critical on Conor than Joe Rogan was. I'd have to watch it again to be more precise. Skip to 9:30.

His takedown defence wasn't great no, that said he was facing the best wrestler in the division. However, his ground game was good, take down defence and ground game are 2 different things.

He did very well from the bottom with his movement awareness positioning etc, Made It difficult for Chad to transition into any decent position, landed a few elbows of his own and executed and beautiful escape.

Mellor

Mendes has fantastic wrestling.
Him being able play his game doesn't mean Conor's ground game is poor. That guillotine escape was no fluke.

Saipanne

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well according to the people commentating on that, McGregor couldn't defend the takedowns very well. He went to ground too easily. Those elbows were doing a ton of damage. Honestly, I'm just parroting what those guys said. They were a lot more critical on Conor than Joe Rogan was. I'd have to watch it again to be more precise. Skip to 9:30.

Yes, he didn't defend the takedowns well. But once down there Mendes wasn't doing much. Half of those elbows weren't connecting cleanly, and McGregor returned more than his share of elbows. Then Mendes attempted submissions, but McGregor was more than a match for him.