World Matchplay 2015

mdwexford

ComfortKid wrote: »

Why don't people like MvG or Taylor? The 2 greatest darters ever!

I think Van Gerwen has become a knob since he started being successful.

Taylor can come across pompous and the celeb name dropping and stuff gets annoying but he's the goat so he can do what he likes.

Van Gerwen has a way to go before he's in that bracket also.
He's only been unreal for 2.5 years and has one world title.

Devastator

marklazarcovic wrote: »

hated the way wade reacted after beating taylor last ngt..almost apologising with his gestures..fcuk that shiiiit ..too much respect,shoulda got taylor to sign the board since its been 8 years since he last lost on that stage.

I seen that & was raging too! He did apologise, twice!! :mad: Anyone else I'd say ok but don't say it to the patronizer!!


I actually think its easy to hate Taylor lol loads of respect for his darts but he's a right ol' horrible c*** I don't agree he can do what he likes, f**k that, if he's going to spend years making opponents feel even more **** after the game by getting them to sign the board then he should take it when it happens(all of once!) to him and not spit his dummy out & try to start WW3

Johner

Pretty poor final so far, Wade has hit a bad patch here, hopefully MVG doesn't open up a big lead here.

Johner

No way back for Wade here, he just hasn't shown up.

marklazarcovic

not great from either player but mvg still too good

marklazarcovic

worthy winner

paulie21

They started that final way too early. Should of been on at 8

ComfortKid

mdwexford wrote:

Van Gerwen has a way to go before he's in that bracket also. He's only been unreal for 2.5 years and has one world title.

VanGerwen may never reach the trophy haul that Phil has but Michael is a better player than Taylor ever was. John o shea has more silver wear than Ronaldo you know what I mean?
Delited for a worthy winner, match was disappointing and the tournament itself was a bit of a let down, Roll on the Grand Prix :-)

Johner

ComfortKid wrote: »

VanGerwen may never reach the trophy haul that Phil has but Michael is a better player than Taylor ever was. John o shea has more silver wear than Ronaldo you know what I mean?
Delited for a worthy winner, match was disappointing and the tournament itself was a bit of a let down, Roll on the Grand Prix :-)

Not a chance, MVG doesn't have the consistency to be a better player than Taylor. He has spurts where he is unstoppable but it's the leg on leg consistency which sets Taylor apart. MVG is getting better but Taylor will always be the GOAT and there will never be another player like him or as good as him. Taylor is 54 and still well capable of beating MVG.

ComfortKid

Johner wrote:

Not a chance, MVG doesn't have the consistency to be a better player than Taylor. He has spurts where he is unstoppable but it's the leg on leg consistency which sets Taylor apart. MVG is getting better but Taylor will always be the GOAT and there will never be another player like him or as good as him. Taylor is 54 and still well capable of beating MVG.

He has shown his consistency through out his career. Won the world masters at 16 years of age. Youngest ever PDC World champion? 9 majors at 26, Tayor didnt win a pro tournament till he was 30. Only time will tell if he can win as much as Phil, but Taylor played in a different game altogether for 20 years, no one could keep up with him. Michael is winning everything in a time with much better standard.

Tiger Mcilroy

ComfortKid wrote: »

He has shown his consistency through out his career. Won the world masters at 16 years of age. Youngest ever PDC World champion? 9 majors at 26, Tayor didnt win a pro tournament till he was 30. Only time will tell if he can win as much as Phil, but Taylor played in a different game altogether for 20 years, no one could keep up with him. Michael is winning everything in a time with much better standard.

Consistency?.. his ranking dropped off big time from 2007 to 2012 and was consistently falling short in big tournaments. And the masters win was very much a one off for a good few years up to 2013 when he clearly started his rise to where he is now.

Taylor only really started taking darts seriously when was in his late twenties and Bristow backed him financially so im not sure the fact that he was 30 when he won his first pro event is a fair criticism is probably the opposite. And as much as i hate Taylor he is the one that brought darts to the level that everybody is operating at is the greatest of all time and no matter what sky sports says MVG is'nt and will never be in the same category.

ComfortKid

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

Consistency?.. his ranking dropped off big time from 2007 to 2012 and was consistently falling short in big tournaments. And the masters win was very much a one off for a good few years up to 2013 when he clearly started his rise to where he is now.

Taylor only really started taking darts seriously when was in his late twenties and Bristow backed him financially so im not sure the fact that he was 30 when he won his first pro event is a fair criticism is probably the opposite. And as much as i hate Taylor he is the one that brought darts to the level that everybody is operating at is the greatest of all time and no matter what sky sports says MVG is'nt and will never be in the same category.

Ya,When he switched over he had a few years without competing with the big boys on tv, but he was still winning and qualifing for majors as a teenager. he was in the youth tour for 2 years aswell,reaching the final both times. He won the holland open the same year as the World masters which qualified him for pdc events. The year after he won the masters he knocked out taylor and hit a 9 darter against Barney :rolleyes:

I didnt mean it as criticism that Taylor didnt win anything untill 30, but that Van Gerwen has more time to achieve it. I dont think anyone will ever win as many worlds or matchplays as Phil he is the goat, but i can see Michael breaking every other record. He is on course to beat Taylors best of 24 tournaments in a year, Michael has 12 and its only July

marklazarcovic

its not like mvg cannot get better either ..he so can,aidy lewis got worse,mvg has more drive imo

SlickRic

Sorry, but in what way is MVG better than Taylor ever was?

What an incredible statement. Mind blowing.

Taylor won all the time in the eras of Bristow, Lowe, Priestley, Barney AND today. His last Major was only last year FFS, so he's not past it. So he's still winning in this era too.

MVG isn't fit to lick Taylor's laces yet in terms of his standing in the game.

Kingp35

Devastator wrote: »

I use their live scores but it doesn't have head 2 head stats

It does do head to head stats. It's just a little hard to find.

http://www.dartsdatabase.co.uk/HeadToHeadList.aspx?playerKey=1

Devastator

Kingp35 wrote: »

It does do head to head stats. It's just a little hard to find.

http://www.dartsdatabase.co.uk/HeadToHeadList.aspx?playerKey=1

"
Phil Taylor Head To Head List


Only players who Phil Taylor has played more than once are listed here."

good try lol I've already looked and thats all I can find, unfortunately H2H against only Taylor doesn't help.


In terms of this Taylor Vs MVG debate, of course MVG has not won as much, he about 30 years the junior of Taylor. If you put them against each other when both playing at their peak I think MVG would win it because I feel his scoring & high checkouts nobody could live with. Obviously different formats suit different players and Taylor has consistency over a long game.

No doubt Taylor has moved the game on massively and all the top players I feel are better now than they were years ago. I don't think anyone, nevrmind MVG will catch Taylors 16 wold records but I think its harder to win now than 20 years ago but if MVG gets to 1/2 of Taylors then I'm going to enjoy watching him.

mdwexford

ComfortKid wrote: »

VanGerwen may never reach the trophy haul that Phil has but Michael is a better player than Taylor ever was. John o shea has more silver wear than Ronaldo you know what I mean?
Delited for a worthy winner, match was disappointing and the tournament itself was a bit of a let down, Roll on the Grand Prix :-)

Wow this may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Van Gerwen is nowhere close to being better than Taylor ever was. At their very best in a one off game it's a close run thing. Come back in 20 years and let's reassess.

That is the most stupid attempt at an analogy that's ever been written.
You are comparing the all conquering dominator of darts for the last 25 years who did it all single handidly to a football team fringe player who collected medals when he wasn't exactly an integral part of the first 11.

To answer your other post Van Gerwen hasn't been consistent for 3 years yet, he was patchy at best as a teenager and in his first 7 or so PDC years. If he keeps going the way he is who knows what he will have won in 20 years but that's all speculation, he may not keep at this level indefinitely.

ComfortKid

mdwexford wrote:

Wow this may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

mdwexford wrote:

Van Gerwen is nowhere close to being better than Taylor ever was. At their very best in a one off game it's a close run thing. Come back in 20 years and let's reassess.

So the most ridiculous thing you ever heard and it would be a close game? Not very ridiculous then is it?

I am not saying Taylor is passed it or doubting his achievements. He is the GOAT and there will never be anyone like him again. He is still playing the same darts he always did, same averages. He won 2 big tournaments last year but he just can't dominate anymore because the standard has risen.
Michael is able to dominate even with this high standard. He is on course to beat Phils record of most tournaments in a year! Phil did this against mainly very average players, yeah you had a few good players but now a days its a different game, players ranked as low as 50th hitting 9 darters ect.

In a one off game Taylor 08 v MvG 15, I think Michael would win, he can take out big checkouts, Phil doesn't all that often, and Michael is the best counter I've seen. This makes a massive difference, Taylor cant count but got away with it for years

ComfortKid

mdwexford wrote:

To answer your other post Van Gerwen hasn't been consistent for 3 years yet, he was patchy at best as a teenager and in his first 7 or so PDC years. If he keeps going the way he is who knows what he will have won in 20 years but that's all speculation, he may not keep at this level indefinitely.

So him getting to the 2010 and 2011 youth finals. PDC young player of the year 2011. World Grand Prix winner 2012, World Championship final 2013, Premier league champion 2013. World Champion 2014, 12 tournaments allready in 2015, that's over 5 years of consistency.

mdwexford

ComfortKid wrote: »

So the most ridiculous thing you ever heard and it would be a close game? Not very ridiculous then is it?

I am not saying Taylor is passed it or doubting his achievements. He is the GOAT and there will never be anyone like him again. He is still playing the same darts he always did, same averages. He won 2 big tournaments last year but he just can't dominate anymore because the standard has risen.
Michael is able to dominate even with this high standard. He is on course to beat Phils record of most tournaments in a year! Phil did this against mainly very average players, yeah you had a few good players but now a days its a different game, players ranked as low as 50th hitting 9 darters ect.

In a one off game Taylor 08 v MvG 15, I think Michael would win, he can take out big checkouts, Phil doesn't all that often, and Michael is the best counter I've seen. This makes a massive difference, Taylor cant count but got away with it for years

Your post as a a whole was ridiculous.

Taylor is not as consistent and taking out shots at the right times as much as he used to.

The strength in depth has improved a crazy amount.

Most tournaments in a year doesn't mean all that much, all these pro tour events weren't around years ago when Taylor was at his best. Same way Hendrys records are being broken in snooker, if there were more tournaments in his day his records would never be broken.

Part for one is a better counter than Van Gerwen, he does operate fast though even when he misses his intended target.

ComfortKid wrote: »

So him getting to the 2010 and 2011 youth finals. PDC young player of the year 2011. World Grand Prix winner 2012, World Championship final 2013, Premier league champion 2013. World Champion 2014, 12 tournaments allready in 2015, that's over 5 years of consistency.

You can win world youth titles with an 80 average, standard is fairly poor.
He's been consistent since the 2012 Grand Prix.

ComfortKid

Taylors best year was in 2008. Pro tour and Euro tour was going fine then, but with lower quality opponents. Michael has played in 1 tournament more than Taylor had at this stage in 2008. Michael has won the same amount of tournaments against much tougher opponents.

No one ever won the youth championship with an 80 average, MvG lost one with 95 average. Michael Smith holds the highest ever recorded average in the whole pdc, in a Youth match against MvG.
Eric Bristow won 2 World Championships with an 80 average?

You say Michael wasnt consistent untill 2012 grand prix despite reaching finals, qualifing for big tournaments and winning plenty of non tv tournaments. Remind me what Taylor won in his first 3 years as a professional?



My opinion is far from ridiculous. MvG is the 2nd most successful player of all time, He is 26.

ComfortKid

Saying all that, the 3 best games of darts I have ever seen involved Taylor. He still holds alot of the highest average records too

SlickRic

ComfortKid wrote: »

My opinion is far from ridiculous. MvG is the 2nd most successful player of all time, He is 26.

He's not.

You need the context of how many tournaments exist now compared to the past.

He may become the greatest or 2nd greatest ever, but he's just not yet. To say so is incredibly disrespectful to players like Barney, Bristow and the like.

ComfortKid

Michael has won the World Championship, Grand Prix, Matchplay,Uk open. all were around in Barneys time and Bristow played in 3 of them? You saying Bristow or Barney were better than MvG? He is a better player and has won more than them, even just counting the tournaments that were around back then, MvG is either the 1st or 2nd best player ever to be seen, that is unquestionable.

I never once said Michael was the greatest, infact I said THREE times that Phil is the greatest there ever will be!

I said on his current form MvG is playing better than anyone ever has.

ComfortKid

SlickRic wrote:

You need the context of how many tournaments exist now compared to the past.

And again, in Taylors most successful year, he played in 1 less tournament at this stage than Mvg has. Yet Michael is winning everything against better quality players.

mdwexford

ComfortKid wrote: »

Taylors best year was in 2008. Pro tour and Euro tour was going fine then, but with lower quality opponents. Michael has played in 1 tournament more than Taylor had at this stage in 2008. Michael has won the same amount of tournaments against much tougher opponents.

No one ever won the youth championship with an 80 average, MvG lost one with 95 average. Michael Smith holds the highest ever recorded average in the whole pdc, in a Youth match against MvG.
Eric Bristow won 2 World Championships with an 80 average?

You say Michael wasnt consistent untill 2012 grand prix despite reaching finals, qualifing for big tournaments and winning plenty of non tv tournaments. Remind me what Taylor won in his first 3 years as a professional?



My opinion is far from ridiculous. MvG is the 2nd most successful player of all time, He is 26.

Taylor didn't used to play many of the floor tournaments, still doesn't play as many as the others now.

Van Gerwen got beaten with a 92 average.
The finalists from the last few years have had

85 vs 79
89 vs 79
95 vs 92
84 vs 87

It's also a first to 6 legs short format, hardly a barometer used for consistency.

What has Bristows averages from the 80s got to do with Van Gerwen being consistent.

Did you even watch darts back then. Van Gerwen was nowhere near the player he is now. He was patchy and for every great game he would throw in 3 crap ones.

Why do you keep comparing him to Taylor when referencing his consistency over the last five years. Its got nothing to do with it. Your MVG nut huggery is strong.

He's not the second most successful player ever.
He has 8 TV majors, Barney and Bristow are obviously more successful.
Wade has the same amount of majors as well I think.

ComfortKid

You said the youth championship could be won with an 80 average, an 80 average did not win it the two years Michael was in it. Just stating Bristow won 2 with an 80 average so are you going to say he was no good?
Michael IS the second most successful player ever, that is a fact an cannot be disputed! He has 9 majors! Wade has 8 (7 technically) How can you say Barney is more successful??

Look over the previous darts threads and you will see that Phil Taylor is my favourite player, I would be shouting for Phil in any game against MvG so don't use the fanboy rubbish.

ArmaniJeanss

Generally tough to compare different generations in sports, though darts is easier than most as there hasn't been huge changes in equipment, training methods, diet, game theory etc.

I think there are definitely lots of ways of measuring it to get to the result you want and its a good if fruitless debate as few will change their mind.

Personally for me the "who is the best player you've ever seen?" question is 100% MVG. I acknowledge that he hasn't and will probably never win as much as Taylor or have the longevity of career of Taylor/RVB, but those aren't metrics I'm using or need to use.

ComfortKid

That's the thing, no one will ever win what Taylor has because the standard of player is much better now, but people will not accept anyone is better than Phil until they win more trophies.

ComfortKid

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

Generally tough to compare different generations in sports, though darts is easier than most as there hasn't been huge changes in equipment, training methods, diet, game theory etc.

Diet has actually changed, players are not aloud to drink or be drunk these days :-)