Now Ye're Talking to - an Orthodox Jewish Irish woman

Boards.ie: Niamh

I've removed some off-topic posts. Katydid, we've heard enough about your views on Judaism, please do not post in this thread again.

quickbeam

I'm an Orthodox Jewish Irish woman, AMA wrote: »

I think the biggest deal breaker for me was that Catholicism just doesn't encourage intellectual learning. It always felt like 'do it because the priest said so.' In Judaism, there's so much argument and so many questions- learning is a way of life. I go to classes on Judaism up to 5 times a week, because it's truly fascinating. My husband learns even more (although he is employed full time too). It's what we talk about at the kitchen table and it's what guides all of our decisions in life. If we're not sure on something, we can even text our rabbi- something that happens pretty frequently. If we're having issues in our marriage, we go to talk with him too. It's a very close community and truly a way of life.

I'm an Orthodox Jewish Irish woman, AMA wrote: »

Ahh but you see, this is the issue. If we decide to only follow the laws which seem logical and applicable to us, we're already not doing them for the sake of G-d. We're doing them because we feel that we're entitled to some underlying benefit, and if we don't benefit personally then we have the authority to cast them off. Science is continually unravelling reasons for the laws of kashrut and other Jewish practices which otherwise seemed bizarre and irrelevant. But finding reasons for these laws is unnecessary. We do these things because we're Jews and that's what G-d wants from us-- full stop. It doesn't matter how we feel about them or how inconvenient they are, someone with true fear of heaven will know that it is enough that this is what G-d has commanded.

I agree that life is too short. That's why I really wanted to invest in the short time I have here by complying 100% with all that G-d wants from me. Because who knows better than my creator what is best for me?

I find your two statements above interesting, and (to my mind) contradictory and I'd like to hear your opinion on how you reconcile them. On the one hand you say that Judaism encourages questioning, but then on the other you say that you need to comply 100% with the teachings no matter how inconvenient. When you question a teaching that seems illogical is it a satisfying enough answer for you to hear "that's just the way G-d told us to do it" ?


Another question, which may be a bit too close to the political side of things for you to answer, in which case, fair enough. But when you hear criticism of Israel do you take that as anti-Semitism, or can you separate in your head that anti-Israel only means people being against the current government's policies, and is not the same thing as anti-Israelis, or anti-Sematic?

Daisy 55

This is very interesting!
Could you tell us a little more about Shabat? Particularly what is not allowed.

uck51js9zml2yt

Thanks for your comprehensive answer to my question.
Sadly, it just confirms what Isaiah said, "Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not."

With regard to the misbelief that Christians believe in polytheism. It couldn't be further from the truth. While I disagree with the idolatry found in many branches of Christendom, even the Old Testament refers to the plurality of God. The very use of the name Elhoim is a plurality.

Indeed in the creation account in Genesis says "Let Us make man in Our image". When God judged Adam, He said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us....".
Also when God judged mankind at Babel , He said, "Let Us go down and confuse their language"down.

Daniel himself refers to the Son of Man and the Ancient of Days saying.... ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed."

Again the creation account says that it was the "Spirit of God moving over the surface of the waters". Then of course there are the numerous references to the "Spirit of God".

Joel even says that God would pour His "Spirit on all people" something I personally saw fulfilled over 30 years ago

As a Christian of over 30 years( I wasn't always) I can read the whole Bible and understand it in its completeness. Granted, you'll say I'm not reading it correctly or understanding the nuances of the original languages - most of my study is with reference to the original languages, but I can see the whole picture from creation through to His triumphant return and reign.

While its admirable that you have embraced the Jewish Faith, even breaking one law is breaking the law and a burden which even Israel cannot carry.
Yeshua came to fulfill the law not destroy it, He came as the ultimate Sacrifice to reconcile man with God, something the continuous temple sacrifices couldn't do. It all pointed to Him and having fulfilled the law in Himself, He ushered in an era of grace where it was possible for all to know Him.

Nekarsulm

Most of my understanding of Judaism comes from reading Jonathan Kellermans "The ritual bath". A crime thriller, so I may be sadly misinformed about many aspects........

Lucy8080

hi O.J.I.W,

great thread ,thanks for your candid opinions and sharing your experience with us. Fascinating thread.

I would imagine that living the orthodox life-style has many rewards ( community ,connection , built trust through shared experiences and more).

I can't help wondering about the punishments required for breaking the rules. Do you feel a little " insured" by the supremacy of the state laws?

For example, if the state afforded a town in which you could live and express your beliefs without interference, would you feel able to apply the required punishments for breaches of the laws that you feel duty bound to obey?

I'm an Orthodox Jewish Irish woman, AMA

I'd like to preface this general response with the following; I left Catholicism and Christianity. It is very obvious that one does not do this because they are satisfied with its tenants and teachings. If someone takes offence to my opinions about Christianity or Catholicism, then quite frankly I don't care. People are asking my perspective as a Jewish woman and I am giving it to them as honestly and as comprehensively as my time will allow. If it's leaving a bad taste in your mouth, then perhaps your interests would be better served by speaking to a Christian.

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I can't help wondering about the punishments required for breaking the rules. Do you feel a little " insured" by the supremacy of the state laws?

For example, if the state afforded a town in which you could live and express your beliefs without interference, would you feel able to apply the required punishments for breaches of the laws that you feel duty bound to obey?

Thanks for your question Lucy. All the punishments set out by G-d will only become applicable once the Temple will be rebuilt. So even if the State of Israel became a theocracy, it would still not be able to impose such punishments until the rebuilding of the Temple (which will happen when the Messiah comes and brings about perfection in the world in any case).

But even if we implemented of these laws, it was extremely rare for the 'harsher' punishments such as the death penalty to be carried out because of the many, many preconditions necessary. Harsh sentences require numerous witnesses to the sin itself and forewarning in advance by a number of individuals before a person can be found liable.

In the Mishnah it is stated that a Beit Din (Rabbinical court) which imposes the death penalty once in 70 years is considered 'bloody'. This really does show the Jewish outlook on the sanctity of human life- that even one execution in 70 years is enough to cause national trauma.

Kaylani Cool Peacock wrote: »

Thanks for your comprehensive answer to my question.
Sadly, it just confirms what Isaiah said, "Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not."

Ok, I understand that you think that I'm still ignorant, but I think this is the reason that you're a Christian and I'm a Jew. Personally I feel that Christianity has based a great deal of its beliefs on misquoting and misinterpreting the bible, in particular taking sentences out of context and twisting them to fit an overall agenda. At the end of the day, Yeshu basically told people that all the laws of the 'old' testament were null and void and that he was establishing a new covenant. This is the antithesis of what the Messiah will do, and a classic sign of a false prophet.

Kaylani Cool Peacock wrote: »

With regard to the misbelief that Christians believe in polytheism. It couldn't be further from the truth. While I disagree with the idolatry found in many branches of Christendom, even the Old Testament refers to the plurality of God. The very use of the name Elhoim is a plurality.

'Elohim' is one of the names of G-d (although not the most sacred name). It is indeed plural- as is the Hebrew word for 'water' and 'life'. Elohim, like all of the other names for G-d, represents a specific attribute He encompasses and a different way in which He manifests himself in the world. Like a woman can be a mother, wife, doctor and friend all at once, G-d can have many ways of revealing Himself to us. 'Elohim' is primarily used as G-d's name in Genesis and relates to how G-d has manifested Himself in nature - a place where he is found everywhere and His oneness is scattered among every part of creation.

Kaylani Cool Peacock wrote: »

Indeed in the creation account in Genesis says "Let Us make man in Our image". When God judged Adam, He said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us....".
Also when God judged mankind at Babel , He said, "Let Us go down and confuse their language"down.

I've lost you here. Yes, G-d gave various languages, but the language he gave us the Torah in is His sacred language and only by reading the original can one ever unveil the secrets of His works.
And yes, man is created in the image of G-d but this represents that each person has an inherent G-dliness and spark of G-d within him. This in no way relates to the creation of idols.

Kaylani Cool Peacock wrote: »

Daniel himself refers to the Son of Man and the Ancient of Days saying.... ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed."

Again the creation account says that it was the "Spirit of God moving over the surface of the waters". Then of course there are the numerous references to the "Spirit of God".

Joel even says that God would pour His "Spirit on all people" something I personally saw fulfilled over 30 years ago

As a Christian of over 30 years( I wasn't always) I can read the whole Bible and understand it in its completeness. Granted, you'll say I'm not reading it correctly or understanding the nuances of the original languages - most of my study is with reference to the original languages, but I can see the whole picture from creation through to His triumphant return and reign.

While its admirable that you have embraced the Jewish Faith, even breaking one law is breaking the law and a burden which even Israel cannot carry.
Yeshua came to fulfill the law not destroy it, He came as the ultimate Sacrifice to reconcile man with God, something the continuous temple sacrifices couldn't do. It all pointed to Him and having fulfilled the law in Himself, He ushered in an era of grace where it was possible for all to know Him.

Ultimately, this returns to my original statement- that a person who comes to create something new from G-d's word and reinvent His tenants is ultimately a false prophet. I believe that poor scholarship and misinterpretation is at the core of Christianity, and while I can continue to refute these quotes which have been taken out of their original context and translated (often poorly and by Christians with an agenda) into a foreign language, I think that the best thing any Christian seeking the truth can do is learn the original Hebrew and invest time in reading commentaries such as those of Rashi who provide rich and exact explanations of the original text.

Daisy 55 wrote: »

This is very interesting!
Could you tell us a little more about Shabat? Particularly what is not allowed.

On shabbat, we are forbidden from performing any of the 39 melachot (found here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/102032/jewish/The-39-Melachot.htm) which are the forms of work used when building the Mishkan. There are also additional prohibitions called 'toldot' which are different from the forms of work used to build the Mishkan, but basically achieve the same result. Then there are also prohibitions instated by the Rabbis, often to create a fence around the Torah and prevent people from coming close to breaking a biblical prohibition. The punishment for breaking a biblical prohibition is more severe than breaking a rabbinic prohibition. Practically speaking, on shabbat some of the prohibitions that directly affect me are that I can't use electricity, drive, cook, apply makeup, write, etc. Basically, these are all actions of creation in some form of another, and on Shabbat we remember that G-d is the ultimate creator by taking a break from all actions of creation and allowing Him to be the one creator.

quickbeam wrote: »

I find your two statements above interesting, and (to my mind) contradictory and I'd like to hear your opinion on how you reconcile them. On the one hand you say that Judaism encourages questioning, but then on the other you say that you need to comply 100% with the teachings no matter how inconvenient. When you question a teaching that seems illogical is it a satisfying enough answer for you to hear "that's just the way G-d told us to do it" ?

We continually question and argue about ideas in Judaism, but only to reach a higher truth and understanding, not to say "well, I think it's wrong so I won't do it." Ultimately we need to let go of our egos and admit that we don't know anything and G-d is beyond our understanding. This doesn't mean we should stop asking questions, but it does mean that I can't stop keeping shabbat simply because I don' agree with it. Great Jewish scholars and rabbis are constantly in disagreement with one another. The Talmud is basically one big long argument. But this is not intended to be blasphemous and they are arguing with one another on interpretation, not with G-d Himself.

quickbeam wrote: »

Another question, which may be a bit too close to the political side of things for you to answer, in which case, fair enough. But when you hear criticism of Israel do you take that as anti-Semitism, or can you separate in your head that anti-Israel only means people being against the current government's policies, and is not the same thing as anti-Israelis, or anti-Sematic?

As this is edging close to the political field, I will keep this short and to the point. It is clear to anyone that Israel receives much more criticism than a great deal of other countries. It has recently been quite clearly illustrated in this video about the Irish boycott on Israeli produce.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YynbsN3X4qQ&spfreload=10
Personally, I don't see how this blatant double standard can come from anywhere other than Antisemitism. While I agree that it is necessary to question the actions of the government etc, I believe that what is happening in the world today is completely disproportionate and reflective of the continuing reality of peoples' inexplicable hatred of the Jews, no matter where they are.

aloyisious wrote: »

@IAOJIW: re the use of the title-word GOD, is it OK for it to be spoken in English (or any language) by anyone of the Hebrew faith?

For sure! In English, we can say 'G-d' or 'Hashem' but we are just not allowed to use the four letter name of G-d.

the beer revolu wrote: »

Great thread.
In reference to my question as to whether you believed in creationism as taught in the old testament you, to be fair, sidestepped answering the question (which is your right to do) by saying that everything in the Torah is not to be taken literally.
As you believe that the Torah is the direct word of G-d and clearly take much of it very literally, who decides what parts G-d meant literally?

It seems like a very bold action for man to interpret some of G-d's words literally and others not so.

The Rabbis and great Torah scholars are in charge of interpreting the Torah. Sometimes the Torah employs poetic language such as in the Song of Songs, other times it provides a list of prohibitions such as in certain sections of Deuteronomy. It is usually clear by looking at the greater context of the work which is applicable.

Nekarsulm wrote: »

If I might ask a question about the Sabbath and it's observance. Certinly in bygone decades, amongst Protestant families, in farming circles,(1900's) Sunday would mean only the bare essentials of animal husbandry being carried out. Milking primarily. Feeding etc would be completed as far as possible on Saturday, etc. In my great grandfather's day they would walk to church as harnessing the horse/pony would be considered unnecessary work.
What is the situation amongst farmers of your branch of Judaism? And indeed amongst members of public services?

The Christian idea of Sunday as a day of rest is very different to that of the Jewish shabbat. I've included in this overall post an explanation of the Shabbat prohibitions, and while a number of the prohibitions you noted are true also for Jews, Christianity has overall decided that the biblical prohibitions that Jews abide by are null and void because Yeshu decided to basically scrap them.
Religious farmers cannot do any farming work on shabbat, although some lenient farmers employ means to milk cows without breaking prohibitions by using modern techniques. I don't drink this kind of milk, as we have stricter standards for kashrut. But when it comes to feeding animals, not only must a person feed their animals on shabbat (but only their animals and not those of others) but they're obliged to feed their animals before they feed themselves!
Those in the public services cannot work on shabbat unless it's for reasons of 'pikuah nefesh' (saving a life)- these are generally regarded as being those involved in administering medical treatment and also security (the police, army etc).

Whispered wrote: »

My questions; what are the religious and cultural expectations, requirements and norms when it comes to raising children?

Are there any traditions surrounding birth?

Have you got names picked or will you wait to meet your baby?

In some cultures, women are encouraged to stay in their home for a few weeks after childbirth. To fully recover and get to know their new baby. Is this the case for you? Will you have to observe any rituals or Practices immediately after birth?

How does your husband feel about you participating in this Q&A?

Very best of luck with the rest of your pregnancy.

Many thanks! Judaism has very beautiful traditions relating to the birth and raising of children.

When a baby boy is born, his father recites a blessing of thanksgiving. It is customary that the night before his Brit Milah (circumcision) children are invited to the home to recite the words of "Shema Yisrael" (the primary prayer of Judaism which attests G-d's oneness) in his presence. Children are, of course, encouraged to come by providing sweets for the occasion :P This is because of the purity of the prayers of children. It is also customary to study Torah in the home of the baby before the event. There are more customs for the Brit Milah than I have time to write about, but in short it's a very moving ceremony in which a baby boy is accepted into the covenant of Abraham.

For the birth of a girl, the father also recites a blessing of thanksgiving and the baby has a naming ceremony the following shabbat which includes a festive meal after prayers. The shabbat after a baby's birth is when their name is publicly announced and also, if the mother is well enough to come to the synagogue, she recites the 'Birkat HaGomel' which is said after one survives a life threatening experience (a danger which is more true of childbirth in the past than in modern days- thankfully!).

At the age of 3, a boy receives his first haircut and (particularly in hasidic circles) is left with short hair and payot (curls by the ears) based on the biblical prohibition of cutting the hairs on the corners of a man's face. He learns the alphabet and Torah for the first time at 3 years old and it's a very momentous occasion. Girls are continually encouraged to study the Torah, but they are not obliged to do so to the same extent as boys, for fear that obliging her in Torah study would interfere with her ability to raise her children and take care of her home.

I've been thinking about names, but ultimately people wait til the birth and even until the shabbat after the birth to publicly announce anything.

For birth itself, the husband cannot see the woman's opening (as is true when he has relations with her in general) but he can be there to support her (although not touch her, due to the prohibitions of 'taharat mishpacha' which I explained earlier in this thread). Birth is much the same as for anyone else, although there are some 'segulot' (auspicious practices) which are sometimes followed. There are prayers for an easy birth, and often women keep a prayer book or book of psalms under her pillow in the hospital. It is also believed that giving charity will help to progress the labour.

During pregnancy itself, a woman should give more charity, be even more strict in her observance of kashrut and go to more classes in Torah so that the baby will be influenced as well. In the 9th month it is common practice for her husband to open the 'aron kodesh' (place where the torah scrolls are kept) and for a woman to immerse in the mikveh (ritual bath).

Judaism doesn't specify a certain time for maternity leave (although the state of Israel has a 14 week minimum). However, women are encouraged to breastfeed for as long as possible, not just for reasons of health but also because it is believed that women can influence their child and his characteristics through her milk. A tradition (although not a rule or Halacha) is that women breastfeed until the child is 24 months old. However, if a woman is for any reason unable to breastfeed, there is absolutely no problem in her not doing so.

My husband doesn't feel strongly either way about my participation. While of course he wishes me to keep certain matters pertaining to us and his job private, he also acknowledged that these questions have been quite thought provoking, as we've been thinking about many things we usually took for granted. So it's really been a very positive thing in terms of solidifying our own beliefs.

Just heading off for a day in Jerusalem, wishing everyone the best and thanks for all the great questions!

Daisy 55

Thank you. That's fascinating.
But are these activities forbidden in all contexts? Smoothing for instance? Is it only forbidden in relation to work?
What about recreational activities? If a hobby includes a forbidden activity, is it allowed then?

Nekarsulm

Off topic, Daisy, but what is "Smoothing" ?
Surely no Jew is going to be plastering their house on the Sabbath anyway?

Daisy 55

I Don't know, but I thought of fabric, cloth or tablecloth?

Nekarsulm

Thanks for the reply, OJIW. I am forming the opinion that not so many Hasidic Jews would be farmers then? Or otherwise employ staff who would not be bound to observance of all the rules? In the Dairy industry, and indeed poultry and fruit and veg. production, operation of electrical equipment is unavoidable. Even Robot milking machines need human intervention continuously.
If I travel to Israel and visit dairy farms, will I find a largely non Jewish work force?
regards, Nec.

CaraMay

Op can I please refer you to your post #108 where you stated 'Of course, being pregnant, this condition no longer applies. Many feel that the quality of relations between husband and wife diminishes during this time as a result of being constantly 'available'- we've had to make more of an effort to keep our relationship fresh over the past few months.'

I don't understand why, given you are married 6/7/8 months that you already need to keep the relationship 'fresh'. I'm not trying to be smart but shouldn't this be the honeymoon period. Are there rules regard the 2 weeks in which the couple can touch? Is the woman (not asking about you personally) allowed refuse her husband intimacy?

Given that it was an 'arranged' marriage? If so did you have a choice of partners or could you refuse.

Whispered

You mentioned God as he manifests himself in nature. Could you tell me more about that? Do you involve nature in your worship in any way? Is there a belief in a life force or energy (I guess like chi)?

Sort of related to the above question, is there a belief in paranormal things? I assume biblical miracles are believed in? What about spirits, demons, omens, signs, witches, psychics etc.

Did I read earlier that there is no Jewish hell? If so how are sins punished?

Do Jews believe all non Jews will be punished?

What is the Jewish belief when it comes to reincarnation?

Thanks for answering my questions on birth and child rearing so comprehensively. I have one or two more on that subject too: is the Jewish home traditionally strict?

I have a 6 month old and I struggle with some advice people trot out. I find a lot of parents are discouraged from listening to their instincts and to listen to society instead. Don't bed share, get baby out of room at 6 months, leave baby to cry if you know he is clean/fed etc, feed to your schedule not theirs, withhold night feeds after 6 months etc. would it be similar there or are parents encouraged to be more instinctive?

the beer revolu

Continued thanks for your participation.
If you wish to refuse to answer my repeated question, I have no problem with that but I would be very interested in a direct answer or a direct refusal to answer.
Are people of your faith required to believe in creationism as portrayed in Genesis?
Do you believe in creationism as portrayed in Genesis?

I am genuinely curious about this matter.

Vojera

Why does Judaism pass from mother to child rather than just from parent to child?

If a child from a mixed marriage of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother is raised in the Jewish faith, does he or she have to convert since their mother is not Jewish?

Boards.ie: Niamh

It's time to close this one up ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much to our guest for answering so many questions and so thoroughly over the past week, it's been an education.

Thanks for all of the questions too