Greece Debt Crisis - Après Oxi

Quin_Dub

Quin_Dub wrote: »

But this happens only if the marker gets called in - This isn't happening right now , correct?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-04/will-greek-depositors-under-%E2%82%AC100000-be-spared-case-bail

We don't know what the haircut % is yet.

As soon as it gets to the % that impacts deposits, they must be used as collateral.

NorthStars

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Interesting that that piece of information from the IMF is never shown with the rest of the commentary..

Namely that they needed a write-down and an extra €50Bn because of the damage to the economy that Syriza have done in the last 6 months..

The very same report says that the plan was working right up to the point that Syriza took office..

Yet somehow Syriza are trying to spin this as justification for their actions....





As I said in another thread , being envious of any deal that Greece get now is like envying the homeless guy for being able to get free food from the soup kitchen when you can't...


Greece is MUCH worse of as a result of Syriza , not better...

Lets wait and see, shall we?
A debt writedown is a debt writedown.
BTW, it wasn't Syriza who got Greece into trouble.

Phoebas

NorthStars wrote: »

Lets wait and see, shall we?
A debt writedown is a debt writedown.
BTW, it wasn't Syriza who got Greece into trouble.

They played their part.

Namely that they needed a write-down and an extra €50Bn because of the damage to the economy that Syriza have done in the last 6 months..

MadYaker

NorthStars wrote: »

So, it'll be interesting to see how this pans out for Greece.
The IMF, only last week, were claiming that the Greek debt was unsustainable and a writedown of €50 billion or so was required with better terms for the remainder.
If this happens, it will show how weak Ireland is/was at the negotiating table.
Being proud of not asking for a writedown on the debts foisted on our country is not a good idea.

Seriously if you're only looking to use the Greek crisis as a stick to beat the irish government (and it hasn't even gotten that far yet!) there's no point posting in this thread.

NorthStars

MadYaker wrote: »

Seriously if you're only looking to use the Greek crisis as a stick to beat the irish government (and it hasn't even gotten that far yet!) there's no point posting in this thread.

The thread is about the Greek debt crisis.
Last week the Irish government was putting the boot in to Greece, and continue to do so for political reasons.
It's very relevant to the thread.
You can report my post if you think it's not.

Inquitus

Inquitus wrote: »

The ECB has raised the haircut on the collateral assets the Greek banks have posted for the ELA. I believe this means they are all now officially bankrupt / insolvent....

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/date/2015/html/pr150706.en.html

Next step would be a Cypriot style bail in of the banks resulting in a loss of deposits. If this is true then its game over for Greece unless a deal is signed imminently.

That's not what it means.

The ECB's use of the term haircut sounds more dramatic than it is. It refers to a higher discount rate on the assets it accepts from the Greek banking system as collateral for ELA. The value of this collateral has now fallen, and the ECB is naturally taking account of that.

A discount rate is just a financial term for interest rate. Central banks don't charge interest on these securities for practical reasons (expensive and cumbersome), so they just dock a value from the maturity value which diminishes as the security approaches maturity. The 'docked' value has now been increased, which the ECB is calling a haircut.

The two broad questions now will be

1. Whether this affects the Greek banks' abilities to honour customer deoposits? If so, which banks? Can the stronger banks provide interbank loans to the others?
2. How can the new banks be recapitalised, in order to preserve access to liquidity?

You really need a crystal ball to answer these questions. The bottom line is that it's bad news for Greece, but not fatal.

BoJack Horseman

What can the Greek government do (if anything) to improve that situation.

Ie: what does thecECB look for when assessing haircut criteria.

Is it the usual macroeconomic stuff?

@A

@A Tyrant ... - What other assets do the Greek banks have other than deposits?

Inquitus

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That's not what it means.

The ECB's use of the term haircut sounds more dramatic than it is. It refers to a new discount rate on the assets it accepts from the Greek banking system as collateral for ELA. The value of this collateral has now fallen, and the ECB is naturally taking account of that.

The two broad questions now will be

1. Whether this affects the Greek banks' abilities to honour customer deoposits? If so, which banks? Can the stronger banks provide interbank loans to the others?
2. How can the new banks be recapitalised, in order to preserve access to liquidity?

You really need a crystal ball to answer these questions. The bottom line is that it's bad news for Greece, but not fatal.

The banks have now been reduced to the point where they have no more collateral to provide, the ELA was frozen at 89bn and now cannot be increased due to the "haircut", the next step is the ELA is pulled or further haircuts are introduced requiring a bail in. 2 members of the ECB voted against the proposal as it didn't go far enough, the ECB will review the situation again on Weds, time is almost up, unless a deal is agreed imminently its all over for Greece.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

@A Tyrant ... - What other assets do the Greek banks have other than deposits?

Loanbooks, Greek government bonds, T-Bills, pillar 2 bonds. They're all ELA-eligible with various discounts applied.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

What can the Greek government do (if anything) to improve that situation.

Presumably agree to a bailout programme, since it's the lack of a programme that has led to this revision.

The ECB regularly revises its rates of discount for ELA collateral.

As Inquitus says, it's particularly serious for Greece though, because they cannot afford much higher discount rates if any, I presume.

Greek banks aren't officially insolvent but they're one step closer.

KingBrian2

NorthStars wrote: »

The thread is about the Greek debt crisis.
Last week the Irish government was putting the boot in to Greece, and continue to do so for political reasons.
It's very relevant to the thread.
You can report my post if you think it's not.

The Irish gvt has always been supporting Greece. We all want them to stay in the € with sustainable debts.

Crosswind

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Interesting that that piece of information from the IMF is never shown with the rest of the commentary..

Namely that they needed a write-down and an extra €50Bn because of the damage to the economy that Syriza have done in the last 6 months..

The very same report says that the plan was working right up to the point that Syriza took office..

Yet somehow Syriza are trying to spin this as justification for their actions....

What Syriza did so far was:
1) Re-hire the former national television employees as it was a decision from the supreme court
2) Pass a same-sex cohabitation law
3) Give electricity to several thousands of families that were beyond poor
4) Pass legislation for immigrants born in Greece to get citizenship

I fail to see how the above damaged the economy for 50bn. Also failing to see, in reality (not in paper), how the economy was doing well until Syriza came.

Greece is MUCH worse of as a result of Syriza , not better...

Quite the opposite in my humble opinion.

Inquitus

Crosswind wrote: »

Quite the opposite in my humble opinion.

Clearly not borne out by what is happening, Grexit on the cards, no chance of better terms from the EU, economy being devastated each day capital controls are in force, chance of bail in and loss of deposits, if not for Syriza this would not have happened.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Loanbooks, Greek government bonds, T-Bills, pillar 2 bonds. They're all ELA-eligible with various discounts applied.

Could you think of any reason at all that these aren't already being used as collateral?

KingBrian2

Crosswind wrote: »

What Syriza did so far was:
1) Re-hire the former national television employees as it was a decision from the supreme court
2) Pass a same-sex cohabitation law
3) Give electricity to several thousands of families that were beyond poor
4) Pass legislation for immigrants born in Greece to get citizenship

I fail to see how the above damaged the economy for 50bn. Also failing to see, in reality (not in paper), how the economy was doing well until Syriza came.





Quite the opposite in my humble opinion.

Greek politics is still dysfunctional. He went against rival political parties in the parliament sensing he could not rely on them to back him up. Paralysis in the banking sector is forcing Greek politicians to make unusual alliances. The Far left and right wing supported the no to austerity from Europe. The average Greek citizen is still worse off. Decisions have been delayed until an agreement is reached with the Eurogroup.

Phoebas

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you think of any reason at all that these aren't already being used as collateral?

My reading is that they are, but the value that the ECB put on them has been adjusted.

QuinDixie

K-9 wrote: »

I can't imagine multinationals and financial services being too happy either as us being in the Euro market is a big draw for them.

As for Greece, the meeting of the finance ministers tomorrow will set the tone. It's all guess work really until then.

large multinationals and financial services stay in Ireland has very little to do with us being in the EURO.
With them its the tax system and nothing else matters.

Quin_Dub

Crosswind wrote: »

What Syriza did so far was:
1) Re-hire the former national television employees as it was a decision from the supreme court
2) Pass a same-sex cohabitation law
3) Give electricity to several thousands of families that were beyond poor
4) Pass legislation for immigrants born in Greece to get citizenship

I fail to see how the above damaged the economy for 50bn. Also failing to see, in reality (not in paper), how the economy was doing well until Syriza came.

So in other words , they did nothing to help the economy - Not a single piece of legislation to make it easier to do business in Greece , nothing to root out Tax evasion/avoidance.

At the same time they were also busy destroying international confidence in the Greek economy through posturing and threats..

Allusions to Fascism , Calling your creditors Terrorists etc. etc. etc.

Those are the thing Syriza did to ruin the economy...

The Greek people played their part too by paying even less taxes in the last 6 months as they held back on taxes waiting to see if Syriza might cancel them...

Crosswind wrote: »

Quite the opposite in my humble opinion.

Do you truly believe that Greece is in a better position to work its way back to a functioning economy today then it was last December??

Set aside feelings of Nationalism, Patriotism etc....Do you believe that Greece is now a better place today than it was 6 months ago??

frankbrett

Crosswind wrote: »

What Syriza did so far was:
1) Re-hire the former national television employees as it was a decision from the supreme court
2) Pass a same-sex cohabitation law
3) Give electricity to several thousands of families that were beyond poor
4) Pass legislation for immigrants born in Greece to get citizenship

I fail to see how the above damaged the economy for 50bn. Also failing to see, in reality (not in paper), how the economy was doing well until Syriza came.





Quite the opposite in my humble opinion.

The cost of brinkmanship (before capital controls and closing the stock market)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-12/greece-counts-cost-of-one-man-s-gamble

Icepick

Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte has warned Greece it must decide whether it wants to remain in the eurozone, and accept the ‘deep reforms’ needed.

He told MPs tonight that Athens must deliver acceptable proposals to its creditors.
If things stay the way they are, then we’re at an impasse. There is no other choice, they must be ready to accept deep reforms.

so much for a deal in 24-48 hours

Icepick

Deleted User wrote: »

What other assets do the Greek banks have other than deposits?

loans and securities but their value is debatable of course
deposits are actually liabilities

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you think of any reason at all that these aren't already being used as collateral?

ELA requires the Greek Central Bank to with-hold a portion of the securities it holds as collateral as a financial cushion in case "haircuts" (i.e. increased discount rates) are imposed down the line. It's prudent. It's a sort of insurance policy.

The Greek financial system has already reached its ELA limit, and this increased discount rate will "merely" eat into the financial cushion, or 'insurance' that is held by the Central Bank of Greece for precisely this purpose.

frankbrett

T bill auction Wednesday of €1.25bn.
They've been able to roll these over with domestic institutions such as government agencies thus far so shouldn't pose a problem

Calahonda52

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I just don't see how the ECB can agree to any concessions that Greece ultimately wants. The Greek "negotiating position" boils down to debt forgiveness by the ECB at its core. I would imagine that this is just impossible for the ECB to agree to; I'd be livid with our government if Greece were given a debt haircut by the ECB and we weren't demanding a similar cut.

The ECB debt is not really the issue as they can just print it again, its the National Government (aka taxpayers) debt taken on when the 2010 bailout occurred, of which ourt bit is 350 mil

Calahonda52

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The ECB debt is not really the issue as they can just print it again, its the National Government (aka taxpayers) debt taken on when the 2010 bailout occurred, of which ourt bit is 350 mil

Under the Greek plans, and under other proposals, the Irish contribution is not in jeopardy.

Anyway I think the poster is referring to the Syriza proposal regarding the ECB's ability to buy up outstanding sovereign bonds and convert them into zero-coupon bonds. Although if so, he misunderstands the proposal.

chenwc

Greece claimed that "Voice of people" should be respected and it is all about democracy. Well, how about the voices from other EU countries? I think Greece's fate should be decided by all EU people not just Greece.
All the EU country should hold a referendum for Greece's fate.

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

Figured that we might attempt to 'pull' this topic back into the main forum from the café to try and keep the noise levels to a minimum.

Mod:
Request noted. This thread is for people interested in discussing ongoing developments on a mature, adult basis.

The cafe is available for those interested in freer debate, sloganeering, soap boxing.

Basically, if you've problems following lax rules and ight touch moderation in the cafe, I'd suggest not posting here at all, unless there's a marked upgrade in quality. Otherwise you're wasting your own time, and more importantly others who want a reasonable quality discussion.

Jelle1880

http://www.france24.com/en/20150706-eurozones-poorer-nations-take-hard-line-greece

As it stands any new proposal put forward by Greece will have to be very thorough, fair for all parties and strict enough since instead of 4 parliaments last time now all 18 other parliaments of the Eurozone countries will have to agree and all it takes is one No to destroy it.

I can't see it happening with the above link in mind, the Baltic states have already made it clear they have no interest in helping out Greece any more.

jimmycrackcorm

QuinDixie wrote:

The EURO was a dreadful decision by all involved. The sooner we are out the better. What we are living through at the moment is pure denial by everyone involved. All EURO countries, politicians and citizens, refuse to admit the obvious truth, the EURO is finished. Greece should be made leave for their own good, as I believe it will not be long before France and Italy will Ask to leave. the debt is unsustainable and growth is not there, 8 years of bad decisions by the troika and nations prove Its just a matter of time.

I can never understand why people say the Euro is a bad or dreadful decision. After all, on a basic level it simplifies trade and travel within the EU. Currency fluctuation and charges just added unnecessary expenses.

Why should the Euro be finished when it isn't the problem. As we've seen in Ireland, the problem has been a lack of fiscal responsibility. Previously the lazy solution was a currency devaluation.

And I think the EU has shown a willingness to bend over to support countries that are willing to make an effort. Greece haven't shown that willingness, whether it is retirement age, military spending, or public spend and tax evasion, they simply won't present the case that they are truly willing to reform. Even their last proposal including tax raises on wealth creation demonstrated their unwillingness to tackle the root core.

If they had that and a their no vote then the EU would have to listen because even the Germans appreciate genuine effort.

Bob24

Jelle1880 wrote: »

http://www.france24.com/en/20150706-eurozones-poorer-nations-take-hard-line-greece

As it stands any new proposal put forward by Greece will have to be very thorough, fair for all parties and strict enough since instead of 4 parliaments last time now all 18 other parliaments of the Eurozone countries will have to agree and all it takes is one No to destroy it.

I can't see it happening with the above link in mind, the Baltic states have already made it clear they have no interest in helping out Greece any more.

Pretty much my thoughs yes.

Given the situation the ECB wants to apply larger haircuts to collaterals and/or recall its assistance package, but they are waiting for a political decision and a green light from EU leaders as they don't want to be the ones pulling the plug due to a technical decision.

At the same time it is now being reported that only 2 EZ members are currently actively campaigning to keep Greece inside, many of the other having expressed they'd rather let the country go (and as you said since this would be a brand new help package it would take more work and approvals that extending the previous one)

So Tsipras actually is in a weaker position to get a deal than he was before the referendum. He would have to come up with some sweeteners to get support from a critical mass of counties; but the problem is those same sweeteners would also be a guarantee fro him not to be able to pass the deal through his own parliament.

We might finally see meeting of the last chance given to Greece that has been announced so many times in the past few months, and it will be difficult for Greece to take that chance.

Crosswind

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You can't compare Ireland with Greece (or any other EU country for that matter). The low corporate tax is always an incentive for a business to stay here. You really believe Ireland would recover if it wasn't for the corpo tax?

Crosswind

Crosswind wrote: »

You can't compare Ireland with Greece (or any other EU country for that matter). The low corporate tax is always an incentive for a business to stay here. You really believe Ireland would recover if it wasn't for the corpo tax?

Who can we compare Greece with?

Can we not compare with controls?

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No, you're making the same mistake again.

You're conflating internal devaluation with structural reform. This is an error. Neither internal nor external devaluations are synonymous with such reforms; after all, Greece has already undergone significant internal devaluation without having effected adequate structural reforms.

Can you expand on this please?
What are we counting as an internal devaluation? Just that GDP has decreased?

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In fact, some of the reforms demanded by the European 'partners' (such as increasing corporate income tax, and increasing employers' social security contributions) actually undermine the internal devaluation that has been achieved.

These were not Troika reforms. These were proposed by Syriza.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

On the other hand, following a Grexit and an external devaluation, the inability to borrow, and the need to maintain a primary surplus, would leave the Greeks with no options but to take a more business-friendly series of reform. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to retain a primary surplus.

There is no sense in your attempt to distinguish between internal and external devaluations by claiming that the latter kills Greece. Maybe it's time to abandon your shovel and think of a better criticism.

It's probably as simple as me not understanding quite what you mean by internal devaluation, but could you expand on this too please?

Thanks

Crosswind

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So in other words , they did nothing to help the economy - Not a single piece of legislation to make it easier to do business in Greece , nothing to root out Tax evasion/avoidance.

At the same time they were also busy destroying international confidence in the Greek economy through posturing and threats..

Allusions to Fascism , Calling your creditors Terrorists etc. etc. etc.

Those are the thing Syriza did to ruin the economy...

The primary concern of Syriza was to deal with the humanitarian crisis. On that they did well. Regarding economy, they passed the economy restart legislation which has quite a few things approved by the EU among other things. Part of it is here: (sorry but couldn't find an english link, google translate must be used)
http://www.opengov.gr/minfin/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2015/03/SXEDIO_NOMOU_NEW.pdf

Confidence of the economy was destroyed by the pro-austerity parties, domestic and foreign. No need to remind you that everyone was saying before the January elections we'll go to drachma, banks will collapse, the aliens will land on Acropolis and fight Cthulhu and other sci-fi scripts.

Besides, i assume it's fairly obvious by now that the reason the negotiations failed and the referendum was announced was the denial of the creditors to talk about the unsustainable debt restructuring. Tsipras had already agreed to most of the measures proposed by the creditors, despite being opposed by the more radicals of his party.

The Greek people played their part too by paying even less taxes in the last 6 months as they held back on taxes waiting to see if Syriza might cancel them...

Source?

Do you truly believe that Greece is in a better position to work its way back to a functioning economy today then it was last December??

Set aside feelings of Nationalism, Patriotism etc....Do you believe that Greece is now a better place today than it was 6 months ago??

You won't get any nationalism or patriotism from me, quite the opposite :P
Yes, i believe people is way better than before. They had two options:
1) Continue with a failed austerity plan (admitted by both IMF and EU) and lose everything inch by inch.
2) Say NO and expect a hard reset of the economy. Worse short-term, better long-term.

Crosswind

Crosswind wrote: »

http://www.opengov.gr/minfin/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2015/03/SXEDIO_NOMOU_NEW.pdf

Direct link to google translated doc here - https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opengov.gr%2Fminfin%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fdownloads%2F2015%2F03%2FSXEDIO_NOMOU_NEW.pdf&edit-text=&act=url

Crosswind

Deleted User wrote: »

Who can we compare Greece with?

Can we not compare with controls?

No one, same way you can't compare Iceland with Argentina.
Each country has unique economic attributes. What works well for one doesn't mean it will work the same for another.

Crosswind

Crosswind wrote: »

No one, same way you can't compare Iceland with Argentina.
Each country has unique economic attributes. What works well for one doesn't mean it will work the same for another.

We can.

We control for the variables (attributes). It's quite standard.

Crosswind

frankbrett wrote: »

The cost of brinkmanship (before capital controls and closing the stock market)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-12/greece-counts-cost-of-one-man-s-gamble

So, the economy started going down and unemployment up 5 months before syriza became government?

Crosswind

Deleted User wrote: »

We can.

We control for the variables (attributes). It's quite standard.

Reality says otherwise i'm afraid. It's either that or whoever did the math really fecked up.

K-9

Crosswind wrote: »

So, the economy started going down and unemployment up 5 months before syriza became government?

At least politics never changes no matter the country, nlame the other crowd. It does look like if but it has got worse under Syriza, something I doubt they campaigned, promised their supporters, or planned themselves.

Crosswind

K-9 wrote: »

At least politics never changes no matter the country, nlame the other crowd. It does look like if but it has got worse under Syriza, something I doubt they campaigned, promised their supporters, or planned themselves.

Not a fan of syriza, i blame everyone that played a role on this.
I commented on that because, so far, even in this thread, the most popular opinion is that Greece was doing well with the previous government and as soon as syriza came, everything collapsed. The numbers say something different though.

Thomas_.

K-9 wrote: »

At least politics never changes no matter the country, nlame the other crowd. It does look like if but it has got worse under Syriza, something I doubt they campaigned, promised their supporters, or planned themselves.

That´s the result of the game this Greek govt. is playing with the EU/ECB/IMF for months since they came into power. It looks like as if this result of the last Sundays Referendum was all well planned and aimed for but it could be the case that it´ll backfire on them and make all things even more worse than they were before.

That´s the politics of radical left-wing Socialist government acting like amateurs in times of crisis. But there you go, that´s what the people wanted cos they voted them in.

Crosswind

Crosswind wrote: »

Not a fan of syriza, i blame everyone that played a role on this.
I commented on that because, so far, even in this thread, the most popular opinion is that Greece was doing well with the previous government and as soon as syriza came, everything collapsed. The numbers say something different though.

Have you read this piece?

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's an article from the Economist on just this

Crosswind

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you read this piece?

I did. Have you read the reforms wanted by IMF?

Grandpa Hassan

Crosswind wrote: »

No one, same way you can't compare Iceland with Argentina.
Each country has unique economic attributes. What works well for one doesn't mean it will work the same for another.

Try telling the Eurocrats that. If the model worked for Ireland it must work for Greece, right? And if it doesnt then it is the 100% Greek's fault and they have to go....the troika being blameless of course.

The lack of pragmatism and the clinging to an austerity dogma that must work the same for everyone at all costs now defines for me what the Euro is all about.

Crosswind

Crosswind wrote: »

I did. Have you read the reforms wanted by IMF?

The originals or the most recent ones?

That the reforms have had to be revised cannot easily be untangled from the effects of Syriza's reign.

Crosswind

Deleted User wrote: »

The originals or the most recent ones?

That the reforms have had to be revised cannot easily be untangled from the effects of Syriza's reign.

Whichever ones you want. We can go one by one and see if they would indeed help the economy recover.

Thomas_.

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Try telling the Eurocrats that. If the model worked for Ireland it must work for Greece, right? And if it doesnt then it is the 100% Greek's fault and they have to go....the troika being blameless of course.

The lack of pragmatism and the clinging to an austerity dogma that must work the same for everyone at all costs now defines for me what the Euro is all about.

I wonder why it is so often omitted that the Greek State never made much efforts to get hold of those of her citizens that are cunning and eager enough to avoid paying taxes and transfer their money abroad.

I´ve not just once read about the attitude of the Greeks regarding paying taxes where it was stated that is "common sense" to either avoid paying taxes or if that´s not possible, to pay as less one can. So where shall the Money come from to consolidate the finances of that Country?

Solidarity is a good thing and I´m all for it, but solidarity doesn´t mean to have others acting the nanny and paying for the faults of the State who is responsible for its own doing in the first place. Still, there is no sign from the Tsipras govt. to get a grip on that one, always putting the blame for all the wrongs on the EU. One should not forget that it turned out that the Greeks fooled the whole of the EU when applying to enter the Euro Zone. The lack of more scrutiny by the EU on the figures that were put forward to the EU and ECB by the Greek govt. to join the Euro is of course the failure of the EU and ECB together. But again, the Greek State has her share in the blame for it, given that in hindsight, they tricked the "Club".

We´ll see how this Greek "Dramas" will continue and how much Money for them will be thrown out of the window for nothing because whatever the proposals are they are coming up with, as Long as they can´t bring about a Change on the tax pay mentality of their own People, there will be no cure to it. Just pay and pay and pay and I think that many people across the EU are already fed up with that "faul Play" by Tsipras and his Comerades.

Greece isn´t the only country that had to cope with austerities, others had to do as well but they weren´t that incapable like this current and their precessors governments altogether.

Crosswind

Thomas_. wrote: »

I wonder why it is so often omitted that the Greek State never made much efforts to get hold of those of her citizens that are cunning and eager enough to avoid paying taxes and transfer their money abroad.

I´ve not just once read about the attitude of the Greeks regarding paying taxes where it was stated that is "common sense" to either avoid paying taxes or if that´s not possible, to pay as less one can. So where shall the Money come from to consolidate the finances of that Country?

Solidarity is a good thing and I´m all for it, but solidarity doesn´t mean to have others acting the nanny and paying for the faults of the State who is responsible for its own doing in the first place. Still, there is no sign from the Tsipras govt. to get a grip on that one, always putting the blame for all the wrongs on the EU. One should not forget that it turned out that the Greeks fooled the whole of the EU when applying to enter the Euro Zone. The lack of more scrutiny by the EU on the figures that were put forward to the EU and ECB by the Greek govt. to join the Euro is of course the failure of the EU and ECB together. But again, the Greek State has her share in the blame for it, given that in hindsight, they tricked the "Club".

We´ll see how this Greek "Dramas" will continue and how much Money for them will be thrown out of the window for nothing because whatever the proposals are they are coming up with, as Long as they can´t bring about a Change on the tax pay mentality of their own People, there will be no cure to it. Just pay and pay and pay and I think that many people across the EU are already fed up with that "faul Play" by Tsipras and his Comerades.

Greece isn´t the only country that had to cope with austerities, others had to do as well but they weren´t that incapable like this current and their precessors governments altogether.

Ah yes, the good old tax evasion...
https://ideas.repec.org/p/ces/ceswps/_4004.html

Shall we bring tax avoidance to the table as well and how much it affects the countries where the corp tax should go to in the first place?

Thomas_.

Crosswind wrote: »

Ah yes, the good old tax evasion...
https://ideas.repec.org/p/ces/ceswps/_4004.html

Shall we bring tax avoidance to the table as well and how much it affects the countries where the corp tax should go to in the first place?

Why not?