Greece Debt Crisis - Après Oxi

Akrasia

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Syriza's coalition partners in the Greek government, ANEL, are right wing nationalists.

Syriza could have chosen to form a coalition with To Potami, a moderate Greek party that's pro-European.

Instead they chose to form a government with their fellow nationalists.

Fact, not sh1t-stirring.

It is sh1t stirring to say that Syriza are right wing nationalists because they were forced by real politik to form a coalition with a minority partner that have very different political beliefs to them.

The Tories went into bed with the liberal democrats, does that make the tories liberals? Fine Gael are in coalition with Labour, does that make Fine Gael Socialists?

Repeating tweets from right wing nationalists who are happy at the potential break-up of the Euro does not mean that these groups are allies of Syriza.

Bob24

Akrasia wrote: »

It is sh1t stirring to say that Syriza are right wing nationalists because they were forced by real politik to form a coalition with a minority partner that have very different political beliefs to them.

The Tories went into bed with the liberal democrats, does that make the tories liberals? Fine Gael are in coalition with Labour, does that make Fine Gael Socialists?

Repeating tweets from right wing nationalists who are happy at the potential break-up of the Euro does not mean that these groups are allies of Syriza.

Except people are not saying that ... they are saying Syriza is allied to right wing nationalist. Which is a fact as marmurr1916 explained.

marmurr1916

All this uncertainty isn't doing the Greek tourism industry any favours:

Holger Zschaepitz ‏@Schuldensuehner 8 mins8 minutes ago

#Greece Travel Bookings From Germany Collapsed 39%, Amadeus Says. http://bloom.bg/1NRUnLX

BoJack Horseman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Greece does need investment to spur growth. This is absolutely clear.
However it also does not need bad investment, which is what a stimulus package without reform might turn any investment into.

The idea is (in a normal world)....
Invest money
Create businesses
Stimulate demand
Grow business, grow jobs
Return profit & payroll taxes to gov....
And repeat..

But if Greece allows the status quo of a vast under declaration of income by their massive (30%) self employed sector, with a civil service too bent to care..... Then your & mine money is just being pissed away.

Utterly unacceptable.

Mindsets change free of charge & don't require bribery via our taxes.
That comes first.

marmurr1916

Akrasia wrote: »

It is sh1t stirring to say that Syriza are right wing nationalists because they were forced by real politik to form a coalition with a minority partner that have very different political beliefs to them.

The Tories went into bed with the liberal democrats, does that make the tories liberals? Fine Gael are in coalition with Labour, does that make Fine Gael Socialists?

Repeating tweets from right wing nationalists who are happy at the potential break-up of the Euro does not mean that these groups are allies of Syriza.

They were not forced to form a coalition with ANEL. To Potami have enough MPs in the Greek parliament to allow for a successful coalition with Syriza, if Syriza had chosen to form a coalition with To Potami.

Syriza are left-wing populist nationalists, not much different to right-wing populist nationalists at heart.

Worth repeating: Syriza chose to form a government with a right wing populist nationalist party. At least one of these groups of right wing nationalists are allies of Syriza, by Syriza's choosing.

The Greek parliament has 300 seats. Syriza have 149 seats, leaving them two seats short of a majority. To Potami have 17 seats, compared with ANEL's 13 seats. A coalition with To Potami would have a larger majority in the Greek parliament than the current coalition between Syriza and ANEL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_2015

marmurr1916

This article perhaps explains why the rest of the EZ/EU is anxious for the Greek problem to be dealt with asap, one way or the other:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/11725236/The-really-worrying-financial-crisis-is-happening-in-China-not-Greece.html

Akrasia

Bob24 wrote: »

Except people are not saying that ... they are saying Syriza is allied to right wing nationalist. Which is a fact as marmurr1916 explained.

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

marmurr1916 wrote: »

A supposed left-winger whose chief supporters in the EP so far have been Nigel Farage and Marine Le Pen?

As I've said elsewhere, Syriza is not a left-wing party - it's a party of xenophobic nationalists.

And that's why the likes of Farage and Le Pen are fans.

BoJack Horseman

Akrasia wrote: »

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

Communists can be ultra nationalist too.

Nationalism isn't a monopoly for either extreme.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

That's not what they've said, nor does the quote you've posted suggest that at all

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Hoagy

Slightly off topic, but isn't this a really uninspiring meeting room for such important business?

swampgas

marmurr1916 wrote: »

This article perhaps explains why the rest of the EZ/EU is anxious for the Greek problem to be dealt with asap, one way or the other:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/11725236/The-really-worrying-financial-crisis-is-happening-in-China-not-Greece.html

Yep, there are a lot of other issues that the EU leaders would rather be focusing on right now.

Greece has managed to chew up big chunks of time and energy of large numbers of senior politicians in the EU. Senior people don't have a lot of free time in their schedules, there will have been a lot of knock-on disruption in terms of scheduled meetings. The way Tsipras has dragged everybody to the negotiating table only to have nothing new to show, or to flounce off without warning, must be wearing very thin.

I can see how the EU leaders might be tempted to go for Grexit just so they could get back to work!

marmurr1916

Akrasia wrote: »

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

Are you a mind reader now? Syriza, as I've said above, are left-wing populist nationalists - with a current emphasis on populist nationalism. Is it any wonder that they've formed a coalition with another populist nationalist party and that they attract support from other populist nationalists? Have a look at the figures for seats in the current Greek parliament - a coalition with To Potami (a pro-European, pre-euro centre-left party) would have given the current Greek government an extra four MPs to rely on compared to the coalition with ANEL.

To Potami offered to enter a coalition with Syriza during the Greek general election campaign in January:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_River_%28Greece%29

In his public rhetoric, Tsipras keeps emphasising how pro-European he is and how he's determined to keep Greece in the euro (a huge change from Syriza's previous policy of ditching the euro). Unless he's dissembling, To Potami would have been a better fit for Syriza as a coalition partner than ANEL.

However, Syriza's choice of ANEL as coalition partners proves that they're populist nationalists, which is why they've got on so well with ANEL over the past five months.

ESM application

marmurr1916

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Bingo! That's precisely my point. Let's not forget that for years Syriza opposed Greek membership of the euro until they realised that this was a vote loser. I don't think their apparent commitment to the EZ is anything more than a tactic which they'll happily abandon at the first excuse.

marmurr1916

Deleted User wrote: »

ESM application

"Greece is committed to honor its financial obligations to all of its creditors in a full and timely manner" - apart from that minor €1.6 billion default last week!

BoJack Horseman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

ESM application

The chap forgot to state the amount of extra money he's looking for.

Akrasia

marmurr1916 wrote: »

They were not forced to form a coalition with ANEL. To Potami have enough MPs in the Greek parliament to allow for a successful coalition with Syriza, if Syriza had chosen to form a coalition with To Potami.

Syriza are left-wing populist nationalists, not much different to right-wing populist nationalists at heart.

Worth repeating: Syriza chose to form a government with a right wing populist nationalist party. At least one of these groups of right wing nationalists are allies of Syriza, by Syriza's choosing.

The Greek parliament has 300 seats. Syriza have 149 seats, leaving them two seats short of a majority. To Potami have 17 seats, compared with ANEL's 13 seats. A coalition with To Potami would have a larger majority in the Greek parliament than the current coalition between Syriza and ANEL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_2015

ANEL are in the same European Parliamentary group as the Tories and Fianna Fail. Does this make David Cameron a right wing extremist nationalist politician? Because he 'chose' to be in a European Parliamentary group with these kinds of parties?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Conservatives_and_Reformists#Eighth_European_Parliament

Syriza was elected with the mandate of ending the austerity program. Potami would have gotten in the way of fulfilling what they believe to have been their primary mandate, so they were forced into a choice. They could have entered a party that would have betrayed the mandate that they feel they had, or they could have entered into a coalition with ANEL and have a much greater chance of achieving their primary aim.

That's politics. This is a time of crisis for the Greeks. It is very unfair to use this coalition as some kind of evidence that Syriza's true colours are aligned with the radical right instead of the radical left.

marmurr1916

marmurr1916 wrote: »

"Greece is committed to honor its financial obligations to all of its creditors in a full and timely manner" - apart from that minor €1.6 billion default last week!

I actually think that that might be a bit of humour. Didn't Dijsselbloem reference that exact sentence which was in their statement in February?

Eugene Norman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Of course.

Reform is another way of saying: 'passing bills'.
It only requires will.

It isn't hard, it just takes a mindset that embraces wealth creation,rather than one seeking to destroy it.

- No 37% corporation tax
- no increased employment taxes.
- maintain reduced VAT on hospitality sector.

All growth friendly, all will stimulate.

However to do this, they need the political will to actually bother collecting existing taxes.... (€5bn outstanding YTD).
Greece has plenty of wriggle room if it bothered to do its job.

Wasn't the increased vat a condition of the last rejected agreement? Are any of those free market reforms in the program from Europe?

Edit yes it was. The creditors demanded increases in VAT on hotels. The rest of your demands are anti- austerity too.

Bob24

Akrasia wrote: »

No, Marmurr1916 is trying to imply that Syriza are right wing nationalists on the basis that right wing nationalists support their current confrontation with the ECB

No offence but when you start claiming you know what other posters mean better than they know themselves, it is usually a sign that your ideology is taking over your rational thinking.

In the quote you listed he is absolutely not calling them right wing nationalists. He is calling them xenophobic nationalists which is different and is not incompatible with being a hard core socialist. I wouldn't agree with calling them xenophobic (though definitely agreed with calling them nationalists) but I don't see why Marmurr1916 couldn't be of that opinion without necessarily implying they are a right wing nationalists. Whether he thinks they are is for him to say, not you and me.

Eugene Norman

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Bingo! That's precisely my point. Let's not forget that for years Syriza opposed Greek membership of the euro until they realised that this was a vote loser. I don't think their apparent commitment to the EZ is anything more than a tactic which they'll happily abandon at the first excuse.

Significant parts of the Labour Party in Britain were anti-EEC. I'm not sure what that gets you exactly.

Permabear

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Eugene Norman

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

We won't know what they can meet or not until they flesh it out. Thursday.

Quin_Dub

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Every single thing that they have said in relation to the negotiations thus far has proven to be at best naively optimistic or at worst outright lies..

I sat reading the output from yesterdays machinations in Brussels and struggled to try to decide if Syriza were simply criminally incompetent or whether they were consciously acting out a series of pre-planned moves to achieve some kind of ultimate goal (not quite sure what it might be)..

I still haven't been able to decide..although I am heavily leaning toward the incompetent theory at present.

marmurr1916

Akrasia wrote: »

ANEL are in the same European Parliamentary group as the Tories and Fianna Fail. Does this make David Cameron a right wing extremist nationalist politician? Because he 'chose' to be in a European Parliamentary group with these kinds of parties?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Conservatives_and_Reformists#Eighth_European_Parliament

So what? ANEL are a right-wing populist nationalist party. I never stated they were extremist. As for the Tories, many Tory MEPs (and MPs) are right wing nationalists who want the UK to withdraw from the EU - Daniel Hannan MEP is probably the most well known of the Tory MEPs who want the UK out.

FF are not members of this EP group, although the right wing nationalist Flemish National Party and True Finns are. Brian Crowley lost the FF whip when he chose to join this EP grouping:

Ireland's main opposition party in the Dáil has withdrawn the whip from its only MEP after he allied himself with a Eurosceptic rightwing group in the European parliament.

Fianna Fáil said it had removed support for Brian Crowley because he had joined a "crowd of headbangers" in Brussels.

The MEP has allied himself to the European Conservatives and Reformist group, which includes parties that honour former members of the SS in Belgium.

Michael Martin, Fianna Fáil's leader, said Crowley had effectively removed himself from the party for unilaterally joining the rightwing bloc. Martin said he told Crowley the move was "totally unacceptable".

The group includes the Belgian Flemish National party, some of whose members attend commemorations for SS fighters recruited in Belgium during the Nazi occupation. It also incorporates the True Finns party, which has espoused anti-immigrant and radically rightwing policies.

Describing the group as "a crowd of headbangers", Fianna Fáil's chief whip supported the party leader's move against Crowley.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl said he was "reeling and bewildered" over Crowley's move. "Brian, unfortunately, had no discussion with the parliamentary party and there were no discussions about this particular unilateral action by him at national executive level either," Ó Fearghaíl said.

Fianna Fáil, once the most powerful force in Irish politics, was aligned to the Liberal ALDE alliance in the European parliament.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/24/fianna-fail-mep-brian-crowley-whip-withdrawn

Akrasia wrote: »

Syriza was elected with the mandate of ending the austerity program. Potami would have gotten in the way of fulfilling what they believe to have been their primary mandate, so they were forced into a choice. They could have entered a party that would have betrayed the mandate that they feel they had, or they could have entered into a coalition with ANEL and have a much greater chance of achieving their primary aim.

That's been working out well so far, hasn't it?

To Potami would have been a much better coalition partner for Syriza if Syriza were actually genuinely committed to getting a better deal rather than creating a situation where they have an excuse to withdraw Greece from the euro.

Akrasia wrote: »

That's politics. This is a time of crisis for the Greeks. It is very unfair to use this coalition as some kind of evidence that Syriza's true colours are aligned with the radical right instead of the radical left.

Syriza are left-wing populist nationalists. ANEL are right-wing populist nationalists. At present, they're both putting a lot more emphasis on populist nationalism than any kind of left or right policies.

Can you provide some information about a genuinely radical left policy that Syriza/ANEL have implemented (as opposed to talked about implementing) since taking office five months ago?

marmurr1916

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Significant parts of the Labour Party in Britain were anti-EEC. I'm not sure what that gets you exactly.

That radicals and populists of either wing have a lot more in common than they'd like to admit.

BoJack Horseman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

They are anti-austerity. Maybe you should change sides.

Im all for countries paying their way.
Hence my repeated statements for proper collection of existing taxes (especially the €5bn outstanding this year alone) & targeted reductions to stimulate and to bring in more tax.

Reduce key rates, enforce collection, deficit goes away, jobs are created.... This is easy for everyone bar Syriza seemingly.

Try reading more than every second line.

Akrasia

Bob24 wrote: »

No offence but when you start claiming you know what other posters mean better than they know themselves, it is usually a sign that your ideology is taking over your rational thinking.

In the quote you listed he is absolutely not calling them right wing nationalists. He is calling them xenophobic nationalists which is different and is not incompatible with being a hard core socialist. I wouldn't agree with calling them xenophobic (though definitely agreed with call them nationalists) but I don't see why Marmurr1916 couldn't be of that opinion without necessarily implayign they are a far right party.

When someone says 'supposedly left wing' this implies that they mean that they are not actually left wing at all.
If this is a misinterpretation then I apologise

It's a bit of a stretch to say that a party comprised of about a dozen communist and anti capitalist groups are not 'left wing'

It's also rather unfair to declare every political belief that is opposed to austerity or opposed to the types of capitalism that exist in greece as 'populist'

Syriza are a radical left party. They got elected in the last election because their position is popular amongst the Greek population who are worn out with un-ending austerity. 6 years of Troika bail-outs led to the election of Syriza.

After the 6 years of austerity the Greek economy collapsed by 30% and there was a glimmer of hope following a bumper tourist season when there was 1.7% growth (from a very low year on year base). The 'recovery program' even with the limited 'growth' forecast before Syriza took power still called for maintained austerity, further tax increases, further spending cuts, further pain and suffering for the Greek population. And yet it is the fault of the 'radical left' that 'populous' politics took power?

Populism is the idea that the people should have a say in how their countries are governed. The previous 6 years was elitism, the troika was running the country for the banks, and the people don't want that anymore. The elites had their chance, and they failed.

Eugene Norman

marmurr1916 wrote: »

That radicals and populists of either wing have a lot more in common than they'd like to admit.

That wasn't my point. The term nationalist is now a bad word, and with some modern exceptions like the SNP that's justified. However a nationalist opposed to a super national organisation like the EU, or EEC or Warsaw Pact is not really the same as the EDL. It's a legitimate ideology to believe sovereignty should be restricted to sovereign states rather that super national organisations.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Eugene Norman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Im all for countries paying their way.
Hence my repeated statements for proper collection of existing taxes (especially the €5bn outstanding this year alone) & targeted reductions to stimulate and to bring in more tax.

Reduce key rates, enforce collection, deficit goes away, jobs are created.... This is easy for everyone bar Syriza seemingly.

Try reading more than every second line.

Syrzia have in fact arrested people for tax dodging. Given the populist right clientelist parties have allowed the small business men and the middle class professional to dodge taxes for years this was always going to be a struggle. A left wing party is not ideologically opposed to tax collection.

Why don't you try and read what the creditors want from Greece, it isn't any kind of stimulus.

Bob24

Akrasia wrote: »

It's also rather unfair to declare every political belief that is opposed to austerity or opposed to the types of capitalism that exist in greece as 'populist'

Just to get back on this particular point, people who are using the word populist in a derogative way are actually victims (or promoters) of the newspeak part of the liberal elite is trying to impose (I have no problem in saying ideological manipulation is not just contained within "extremist" parties).

The original meaning of the word (Oxford dictionary) simply is:

Definition of populist in English:
noun
member or adherent of a political party seeking to represent the interests of ordinary people.

I don't see anything wrong about that and it even is a fairly honourable goal to defend the interests of the ordinary people.



So fair-play for not accepting that, but you should also look for the same trick within the camp you are supporting.

On my end, I would not hesitate to call Syriza dangerously demagogic.

molloyjh

Akrasia wrote: »

When someone says 'supposedly left wing' this implies that they mean that they are not actually left wing at all.
If this is a misinterpretation then I apologise

It's a bit of a stretch to say that a party comprised of about a dozen communist and anti capitalist groups are not 'left wing'

It's also rather unfair to declare every political belief that is opposed to austerity or opposed to the types of capitalism that exist in greece as 'populist'

Syriza are a radical left party. They got elected in the last election because their position is popular amongst the Greek population who are worn out with un-ending austerity. 6 years of Troika bail-outs led to the election of Syriza.

After the 6 years of austerity the Greek economy collapsed by 30% and there was a glimmer of hope following a bumper tourist season when there was 1.7% growth (from a very low year on year base). The 'recovery program' even with the limited 'growth' forecast before Syriza took power still called for maintained austerity, further tax increases, further spending cuts, further pain and suffering for the Greek population. And yet it is the fault of the 'radical left' that 'populous' politics took power?

Populism is the idea that the people should have a say in how their countries are governed. The previous 6 years was elitism, the troika was running the country for the banks, and the people don't want that anymore. The elites had their chance, and they failed.

Populism bankrupted Greece once already and is set to do so again. That is simple fact. Your rants about "elitism" and "un-ending austerity" are incredibly naive. It is simply not possible to bankrupt your country and not face harsh austerity in an attempt to get back on track. You reap what you sow, and while the EU has attempted (through loans of over €180bn) to soften the impact and speed up recovery there is simply no way to avoid the pain of rebuilding an economy from scratch.

The Greeks were so irresponsible that they ran their country straight into the ground and buried it 6ft under. Instead of learning from that they have decided to do it all over again. At this stage I'd be tempted to let them at it. Remember last year they were back borrowing from the markets, the IMF believed they wouldn't require any more debt relief and they had the strongest growth in the EU (albeit from a low base). Syriza and his colleagues have since pulled them right back into recession, ensured they cannot borrow from the markets, ensured they require at least another €50bn in loans and left the country on the verge of total and utter collapse. Yet somehow to some people these guys are heros? It would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

BoJack Horseman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Why don't you try and read what the creditors want from Greece, it isn't any kind of stimulus.

I did.

Fundamentally its lack of trust.
What the EU want is better than Syriza's counter offer of tax rises...

That cannot be trusted due to poor collection rates.

Just like Ireland, Spain & Portugal, the troika just want a primary surplus.... Once that's done, they don't really care how its done.

However Greek governments have shown repeatedly to be lacking in follow through, hence the EU being pretty hard on expenditure.
They know the Greeks won't deliver the bottom line on taxation.

And let's not forget, Syriza have pissed away the surplus.
So much for their 'efforts'.

Eugene Norman

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

But it's austerity that has failed. Both spending is down and taxes are up but debt to GDP has increased precisely because austerity reduces GDP. As most economists would, and did predict.

Specifically Bojack Horseman suggested a reform to keep VAT on hospitality low. Amongst others. Good idea. As a centrist pragmatist I applaud the idea

But the creditors don't.

From the telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11724924/Europe-is-blowing-itself-apart-over-Greece-and-nobody-can-stop-it.html

Instead they were confronted with a text from the creditors that upped the ante, demanding a rise in VAT on tourist hotels from 7pc (de facto) to 23pc at a single stroke.

Creditors insisted on further pension cuts of 1pc of GDP by next year and a phase out of welfare assistance (EKAS) for poorer pensioners, even though pensions have already been cut by 44pc.

They insisted on fiscal tightening equal to 2pc of GDP in an economy reeling from six years of depression and devastating hysteresis. They offered no debt relief. The Europeans intervened behind the scenes to suppress a report by the International Monetary Fund validating Greece's claim that its debt is "unsustainable". The IMF concluded that the country not only needs a 30pc haircut to restore viability, but also €52bn of fresh money to claw its way out of crisis

Eugene Norman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I did.

Fundamentally its lack of trust.
What the EU want is better than Syriza's counter offer of tax rises...

That cannot be trusted due to poor collection rates.

Just like Ireland, Spain & Portugal, the troika just want a primary surplus.... Once that's done, they don't really care how its done.

However Greek governments have shown repeatedly to be lacking in follow through, hence the EU being pretty hard on expenditure.
They know the Greeks won't deliver the bottom line on taxation.

And let's not forget, Syriza have pissed away the surplus.
So much for their 'efforts'.

But a primary surplus is lunacy in a recession. It's taking money of the economy.

You seem to be squirming away from the fact that you suggested a "reform" for Greece diametrically opposed to what the creditors demanded.

BoJack Horseman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

But a primary surplus is lunacy in a recession

The economy wasn't in recession till syriza gained power!

It's taking money of the economy.

No, its readjusting its distribution.
If a government taxes more from my pocket to spend elsewhere, there is no gain, just redistribution.... The converse is also true.

You seem to be squirming

I don't squirm pal, its you that's going in circles.

diametrically opposed to what the creditors demanded.

My suggestion for sensible tax reform is on the basis of a government collecting taxes & a people paying them.... When both are corrupt, the hammer falls on expenditure....
Its not ideal, but Greece has made that bed for itself.

Syriza have had 6 months to turn that around.

Instead they hired 600 cleaning ladies.
When 600 extra tax administrators, magistrates, inspectors & bailiffs would have done infinitely more to help the economy.

Feckless populism.

This being true, an argument for throwing further good money after bad seems ridiculous.

marmurr1916

Akrasia wrote: »

When someone says 'supposedly left wing' this implies that they mean that they are not actually left wing at all.
If this is a misinterpretation then I apologise

It's a bit of a stretch to say that a party comprised of about a dozen communist and anti capitalist groups are not 'left wing'

You're either not reading or you're failing to understand what you're reading.

I have never said Syriza weren't left-wing.

But populism and nationalism are not incompatible with being left-wing - Fidel Castro is a populist nationalist, as was Ho Chi Minh. A very large part of the appeal of Socialism/Communism in Cuba and Vietnam was its patriotic nationalism, defending the country against foreign occupiers and invaders.

A party which is left-wing can also be populist and nationalist. It's an uncomfortable challenge for many left-wing people to face up to.

Akrasia wrote: »

It's also rather unfair to declare every political belief that is opposed to austerity or opposed to the types of capitalism that exist in greece as 'populist'

True, but it's completely fair to describe parties which offer facile and glib solutions to the complex problems facing Greece as populist.

Akrasia wrote: »

Syriza are a radical left party. They got elected in the last election because their position is popular amongst the Greek population who are worn out with un-ending austerity. 6 years of Troika bail-outs led to the election of Syriza.

After the 6 years of austerity the Greek economy collapsed by 30% and there was a glimmer of hope following a bumper tourist season when there was 1.7% growth (from a very low year on year base). The 'recovery program' even with the limited 'growth' forecast before Syriza took power still called for maintained austerity, further tax increases, further spending cuts, further pain and suffering for the Greek population. And yet it is the fault of the 'radical left' that 'populous' politics took power?

Populism is the idea that the people should have a say in how their countries are governed. The previous 6 years was elitism, the troika was running the country for the banks, and the people don't want that anymore. The elites had their chance, and they failed.

Democracy is the idea that the people should have a say in how their countries are governed.

Populism is when politicians offer easy solutions to complex problems and blame 'out' groups, whether they be foreigners in general, Germans in particular, or Turks, for problems affecting a society. Perhaps a former Minister for Finance describing other EZ countries as 'terrorists' could be considered an example of populism? Perhaps a British journalist who supports Syriza calling a Greek opponent of Syriza a 'Nazi collaborator' is populist? Perhaps the widespread demonisation of Syriza's opposition in Greece as traitors or quislings or Germanophile sympathisers or Nazis is populist?

You may wish to read up on some of the more 'enthusiastic' pronouncements of the leader of ANEL if you think it's not populist.

And, in case you missed my edit of my earlier post, here's some information about FF and its non-relationship with the EP group that ANEL belong to:

Ireland's main opposition party in the Dáil has withdrawn the whip from its only MEP after he allied himself with a Eurosceptic rightwing group in the European parliament.

Fianna Fáil said it had removed support for Brian Crowley because he had joined a "crowd of headbangers" in Brussels.

The MEP has allied himself to the European Conservatives and Reformist group, which includes parties that honour former members of the SS in Belgium.

Michael Martin, Fianna Fáil's leader, said Crowley had effectively removed himself from the party for unilaterally joining the rightwing bloc. Martin said he told Crowley the move was "totally unacceptable".

The group includes the Belgian Flemish National party, some of whose members attend commemorations for SS fighters recruited in Belgium during the Nazi occupation. It also incorporates the True Finns party, which has espoused anti-immigrant and radically rightwing policies.

Describing the group as "a crowd of headbangers", Fianna Fáil's chief whip supported the party leader's move against Crowley.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl said he was "reeling and bewildered" over Crowley's move. "Brian, unfortunately, had no discussion with the parliamentary party and there were no discussions about this particular unilateral action by him at national executive level either," Ó Fearghaíl said.

Fianna Fáil, once the most powerful force in Irish politics, was aligned to the Liberal ALDE alliance in the European parliament.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/24/fianna-fail-mep-brian-crowley-whip-withdrawn

So the EP group that ANEL belongs to includes not just the Tories (many of whose MEPs are right wing nationalists who want the UK to leave the EU - e.g. Daniel Hannan) but also True Finns and the Flemish National Party.

And this is the party that Syriza chose deliberately to form a coalition government with.

Crosswind

marmurr1916 wrote: »

A supposed left-winger whose chief supporters in the EP so far have been Nigel Farage and Marine Le Pen?

As I've said elsewhere, Syriza is not a left-wing party - it's a party of xenophobic nationalists.

And that's why the likes of Farage and Le Pen are fans.

https://xaameriki.wordpress.com/2015/01/29/syriza-immigration-minister-we-will-give-citizenship-to-immigrants-who-were-born-or-grew-up-here/

Passed a couple of weeks ago. So much for the xenophobic nationalists...

Crosswind

Deleted User wrote: »

The debt was sustainable in December, and is now unsustainable. What has changed?

Says who? Not IMF or Merkel surely as they are the ones that admitted the project failed since 2011.

Crosswind

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Can you show me the original "plan" and point out where Greece has failed?

Crosswind

marmurr1916 wrote: »

They were not forced to form a coalition with ANEL. To Potami have enough MPs in the Greek parliament to allow for a successful coalition with Syriza, if Syriza had chosen to form a coalition with To Potami.

To Potami had completely different background. Its president is a former journalist funded by a specific oligarch (Alafouzos)

Syriza are left-wing populist nationalists, not much different to right-wing populist nationalists at heart.

As mentioned before, that's a lie.

Worth repeating: Syriza chose to form a government with a right wing populist nationalist party. At least one of these groups of right wing nationalists are allies of Syriza, by Syriza's choosing.

The Greek parliament has 300 seats. Syriza have 149 seats, leaving them two seats short of a majority. To Potami have 17 seats, compared with ANEL's 13 seats. A coalition with To Potami would have a larger majority in the Greek parliament than the current coalition between Syriza and ANEL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_2015

Worth mentioning that they allied with the only other anti-austerity party. Also proposed an alliance to the communist party, which was rejected.

marmurr1916

Greek banks will stay shut until at least Friday:

Manos Giakoumis ‏@ManosGiakoumis 18 mins18 minutes ago

#Greece banking holiday to be extended by 2 days until Fri w/o any change in capital controls & bank transactions (via @kathimerini_gr) #ecb

And Vladimir Putin isn't giving Greece any special treatment:

Holger Zschaepitz ‏@Schuldensuehner 22 mins22 minutes ago

More bad news for #Greece: #Russia doesn't plan to exempt Greece from import ban. (BBG)

Greece is not having a good week.

marmurr1916

Crosswind wrote: »

https://xaameriki.wordpress.com/2015/01/29/syriza-immigration-minister-we-will-give-citizenship-to-immigrants-who-were-born-or-grew-up-here/

Passed a couple of weeks ago. So much for the xenophobic nationalists...

The Greek constitution has been changed? When?

While under Greek constitutional law this is completely illegal(citizenship can only be obtained by Greek descent or strict naturalization after 10 years of legal residence), it won’t stop the corrupt regimes ruling Greece from trying to implement it, knowing that most Greeks are completely ignorant of what laws are in the Greek constitution.

By the way, linking to a website that uses the Golden Dawn symbol on its home page is perhaps not the best way of demonstrating a committment to combating xenophobic nationalism...



And this is that website's assessment of Kammenos, leader of ANEL, Syriza's coalition partners:

Where the once “far-right” patriot Kammenos will stand on this issue is an interesting question.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

micosoft

Austerity has worked in Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Italy.

Crosswind

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The Greek constitution has been changed? When?



By the way, linking to a website that uses the Golden Dawn symbol on its home page is perhaps not the best way of demonstrating a committment to combating xenophobic nationalism...



And this is that website's assessment of Kammenos, leader of ANEL, Syriza's coalition partners:

Yikes!!!Just the first result that popped up in Google. Have to disinfect my PC now
Trying to find a proper english link.

Btw, Kammenos voted against it.

EDIT: Here it is
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/06/25/greece-adopts-law-granting-nationality-to-immigrants-children-conditional-on/

BoJack Horseman

micosoft wrote: »

Austerity has worked in Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Italy.

And it was starting to deliver for Greece as Permabear eloquently states, until a bogus ideology that should have died with the Berlin wall ruined it.

Jawgap

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Greek banks will stay shut until at least Friday:



And Vladimir Putin isn't giving Greece any special treatment:



Greece is not having a good week.

There's also some suggestion that unless the ELA cap is lifted the capital controls will tighten overnight with ATM withdrawals being limited to €20 per day - difficult to feed a couple, never mind a family on that level of subsistence.

The other rumour is that the government is planning to pay public servants with IOUs - but that is being denied by the Ministry of Finance

Reuters says two sources close to Greece's financial system believe Greek banks could start to run out of cash over the next two days if creditors do not agree to a new aid deal.

Meanwhile, the finance ministry say a report in Greece's Kathimerini newspaper - that said the government was preparing IOUs to pay public service pensions and salaries as money runs out - was "baseless".