Dublin Bus 7/59/111 Changes

crushproof

Just saw this posted on Facebook.

The 7 bus is to stop serving Sallynoggin and Rochestown Avenue completely and instead go to Dún Laoghaire via the Sallyglen Road, leaving residents of Sallynoggin with no direct bus to the city centre and no link to St. Vincent's hospital.
Less no. 7's will serve Loughlinstown Park, instead half of all 7 buses will go to Cherrywood.
The 111 is to be completely axed.
The 59 is to be re routed and is proposed to serve Loughlinstown hospital (one positive).

As far as I can tell the 45A will still serve Sallynoggin?

Journey times on the 7 will massively increase with this change, no more turning and twisting through Sallynoggin. The writing has been on the wall for the 111 for a long time unfortunately.
59 seems to be constantly chopping and changing, it'll soon be serving the entire DLRCC at this rate.
There will be uproar, as always with efficient changes like this. But I'm sure the elderly are capable of switching buses in Dun Laoghaire. A more frequent 45A would cover the loss of the 111.

In regards to Cherrywood, the population is growing there and declining in Loughlinstown, so only natural to increase services to Cherrywood.

uch

Whatever about the 111, but redirecting the 7 away from the Noggin is ridiculous

OssianSmyth

I've uploaded the draft plan here:

http://www.ossiansmyth.ie/dublin-bus-proposes-route-changes-for-dun-laoghaire-sallynoggin-and-loughlinstown/

Fratton Fred

If the 8 goes, will they get rid of the ridiculous bus lane past park Pointe?

The 8am no 8 is very busy with school kids, but I'm not sure how busy the others are.

More busses to cherrywood seems pretty sensible, they just need to sort out the ridiculous positioning of the stop now and finally, we may have a joined up luas/bus service.

Stephen15

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The 8am no 8 is very busy with school kids, but I'm not sure how busy the others are.

I believe that the 8am 8 will be kept during the school term.

LXFlyer

uch wrote: »

Whatever about the 111, but redirecting the 7 away from the Noggin is ridiculous

It will only be a short walk away on Sallyglen Road.


The 45a will be re-routed to serve the current 7 route through Sallynoggin.


It is crazy having a major route such as the 7 going through a housing estate - it needs to be on the main road.

Larbre34

I can see both sides of the 7 Bus argument.

It will be just a 4 minute walk from the crescent shops in the Noggin to the new 7 bus stop on Sallyglen Road, or just 11 minutes from the furthest point of the existing 7 route at Pearse Villas. However, thats not counting elderly people or mobility impaired.

The 45A change will mean people in the Noggin can reconnect with the 7 on Glenageary Hill or in Dun Laoghaire, or get to the DART. But that probably means having to spend more money, two fares potentially instead of one. A leap card will probably reduce that, and in this case the elderly and mobility impaired will have travel passes anyway. It comes down to a frequency / timing issue.

Overall though, if they really want people to have a reliable, direct and reasonably swift alternative to travelling by car into the City or to the DART, changes like these will have to be enacted.

crushproof

Larbre34 wrote: »

The 45A change will mean people in the Noggin can reconnect with the 7 on Glenageary Hill or in Dun Laoghaire, or get to the DART. But that probably means having to spend more money, two fares potentially instead of one. A leap card will probably reduce that, and in this case the elderly and mobility impaired will have travel passes anyway. It comes down to a frequency / timing issue.

That's it, I'm sure they figured that the vast majority who would have get the 45A and then switch would be OAP/mobility impaired, and hence would have free travel anyway.
Hoping DB push ahead with the plan, unfortunately the moronic comments on facebook about "how dare they cut bus services to local schools" (for Holy Child it's the same distance from the current bus stop to the new stop on the new road).
People before Profit have jumped on board and you know who is right in there for a meeting next week. I've fired off an email to DB and few TD's, hopefully my voice will be heard above the loud mouths.

LXFlyer

Larbre34 wrote: »

I can see both sides of the 7 Bus argument.

It will be just a 4 minute walk from the crescent shops in the Noggin to the new 7 bus stop on Sallyglen Road, or just 11 minutes from the furthest point of the existing 7 route at Pearse Villas. However, thats not counting elderly people or mobility impaired.

The 45A change will mean people in the Noggin can reconnect with the 7 on Glenageary Hill or in Dun Laoghaire, or get to the DART. But that probably means having to spend more money, two fares potentially instead of one. A leap card will probably reduce that, and in this case the elderly and mobility impaired will have travel passes anyway. It comes down to a frequency / timing issue.

Overall though, if they really want people to have a reliable, direct and reasonably swift alternative to travelling by car into the City or to the DART, changes like these will have to be enacted.

If they can't walk to the Sallyglen Road then that would imply to me that they have free travel already, which means that they won't be charged twice.

Larbre34

Yeah I must say the nuclear outrage on Facebook, although typical, doesnt help anyone. Its just a reflex 'no' to any change without looking at the bigger picture, like keeping fares down and trying to move the most people in the fastest time, while making sure nobody is denied a predictable service.

In any case, it has never done any good, these network direct changes have come in eventually regardless. There were people sitting in the road at the end of Kill Avenue on the odd Saturday preventing the 46A and 75 from going up that road, and it did no good getting the routes back on to Monkstown Farm - with the result that its a very decent service overall.

patrickbrophy18

I'm very disappointed at the proposal to scrap the 8 as I do think Dalkey needs a semi-frequent service into town albeit, not one which more or less mirrors the DART. What I’m talking about is a proper 7 day a week, hourly service operating along the Stillorgan Road covering UCD, Donnybrook and St. Stephen’s Green. Now is the perfect time to merge the 7d and 8 for such a purpose. A possible extension on the Dalkey end up to Killiney Village could add more loadings by picking up the slack of the re-routed 59 service.

To better explain this, it could start off in Killiney Village and then work its way down Killiney Road. At the entrance to Killiney Hill, it would take a left turn down Saval Park Road. It would then turn right onto Barnhill Avenue covering the entire stretch. Then, another right would be taken onto Barnhill Road. From Dalkey, it could cover Ulverton/Hyde Road->Castlepark Road->Barnhill Road->Upper Glenageary Road->Kill Avenue->Abbey Road->Monkstown Ringroad->Stillorgan Village and then on into town.

On the topic of the 7, I heavily welcome the straightening out of it as it has the potential to shave up to 20 minutes off the overall journey length. However, I do feel bad for *those with moderate to severe mobility impairments who for sure will lose out in the process. Yes, the 45A will take up the slack in these areas but, the frequency needs to be increased even a small amount to better facilitate connectivity with the 7. It's a difficult one to solve given the multitude of roads in that area and the routing permutations that go with it. For *their sake, I hope they manage to workout something more attractive than what's on offer even if it's only a local bus service.

Anyway, these are just suggestions. What do you think?

SimonMaher

Whatever about the rights and wrongs of this particular batch of changes, I don't think it does the debate any favours to refer to peoples honestly held views as "moronic". As it happens, I think that the majority of the proposed changes are positive as long as they lead to an improvement in the often ropey service in the area currently.

You have to expect though that people impacted by the changes will react negatively to them and their views should be listened to. Once again, as it happens I think diverting the 45A through the area is a reasonable compromise but I can see too why residents will need reassurance with regard to interchange etc.

From personal experience, my worry wouldn't be the 2 fares (which has been dealt with above) but more that people are left standing in Dun Laoghaire or wherever waiting to interchange on to a 7 that currently is a frequent no-show or RTPI phantom! If the proposed changes make all the services in the area more reliable then I think that will put the minds of many at ease.

Simon

Stephen15

An idea would would be to run a Dun Laoghaire area circular service. Run it every 20 or 30 minutes on weekdays, have it go Dun Laoghaire Station-Glenageary Hill- Sallynoggin-Honeypark-Monkstown Farm-Monkstown Avenue and back to Dun Laoghaire. Have a €1 flat fare on leap card or €1.50 cash. It wouldn't require too much resources. It would only need one bus probably a mini bus and a driver this could even be run by the council rather than DB as they have made loads of money lately.

crushproof

Stephen15 wrote: »

An idea would would be to run a Dun Laoghaire area circular service. Run it every 20 or 30 minutes on weekdays, have it go Dun Laoghaire Station-Glenageary Hill- Sallynoggin-Honeypark-Monkstown Farm-Monkstown Avenue and back to Dun Laoghaire. Have a €1 flat fare on leap card or €1.50 cash. It wouldn't require too much resources. It would only need one bus probably a mini bus and a driver this could even be run by the council rather than DB as they have made loads of money lately.

To be fair Stephen, that's thinking outside the box. Doesn't go down too well in Ireland. And especially charging only a €1!!! :pac:

As Simon mentioned, a more reliable 7 is all that is required. And a slightly more frequent 45A would quell any fears of long waits etc.
It's quite funny to see the rational conversation here vs. the panic and moral outrage on Facebook.

schemingbohemia

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I'm very disappointed at the proposal to scrap the 8 as I do think Dalkey needs a semi-frequent service into town albeit, not one which more or less mirrors the DART. What I’m talking about is a proper 7 day a week, hourly service operating along the Stillorgan Road covering UCD, Donnybrook and St. Stephen’s Green. Now is the perfect time to merge the 7d and 8 for such a purpose. A possible extension on the Dalkey end up to Killiney Village could add more loadings by picking up the slack of the re-routed 59 service.

To better explain this, it could start off in Killiney Village and then work its way down Killiney Road. At the entrance to Killiney Hill, it would take a left turn down Saval Park Road. It would then turn right onto Barnhill Avenue covering the entire stretch. Then, another right would be taken onto Barnhill Road. From Dalkey, it could cover Ulverton/Hyde Road->Castlepark Road->Barnhill Road->Upper Glenageary Road->Kill Avenue->Abbey Road->Monkstown Ringroad->Stillorgan Village and then on into town.

On the topic of the 7, I heavily welcome the straightening out of it as it has the potential to shave up to 20 minutes off the overall journey length. However, I do feel bad for *those with moderate to severe mobility impairments who for sure will lose out in the process. Yes, the 45A will take up the slack in these areas but, the frequency needs to be increased even a small amount to better facilitate connectivity with the 7. It's a difficult one to solve given the multitude of roads in that area and the routing permutations that go with it. For *their sake, I hope they manage to workout something more attractive than what's on offer even if it's only a local bus service.

Anyway, these are just suggestions. What do you think?

Why does Dalkey need a town service when it already has the DART? If someone wants to get to the Stillorgan Road they can take a now quicker 59 and then switch to a 46a or 75. Really there are more important issues than keeping the 8 which (apart from the 8am one) doesn't carry many passengers until Monkstown.

LXFlyer

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Why does Dalkey need a town service when it already has the DART? If someone wants to get to the Stillorgan Road they can take a now quicker 59 and then switch to a 46a or 75. Really there are more important issues than keeping the 8 which (apart from the 8am one) doesn't carry many passengers until Monkstown.

I would entirely agree.

The N11 doesn't need another route - the 39a, 46a and 145 cover that corridor sufficiently. Adding another route would just be unnecessary duplication.

The 7b and 7d provide additional capacity at peak times from the Dalkey, Glenageary and Sallynoggin areas when it is most needed.

Outside of the peak periods demand for such a service as outlined by the previous poster would be very low indeed.

Anyone wanting to go to the N11 can use the 7, 45a or 59 and connect into the 46a, availing of LEAP90 discount or using their prepaid pass.

There are far more pressing demands for new services than this.

ted1

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Why does Dalkey need a town service when it already has the DART? If someone wants to get to the Stillorgan Road they can take a now quicker 59 and then switch to a 46a or 75. Really there are more important issues than keeping the 8 which (apart from the 8am one) doesn't carry many passengers until Monkstown.

exactly, and if you want to go to a different part of town, you can link up with busses along the way. e.g Blackrock has several busses outside the station

Having a bus to town from dalkey with take away from the DART and thus reduce its viability. What they need to do is to bring the cost inline with the busses.

patrickbrophy18

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Why does Dalkey need a town service when it already has the DART?

What I was saying is that Dalkey needs a bus service which covers the N11. To date, any attempt at this has been half-assed to put it mildly. Moreover, such a service would need to operate into town to more central locations such as St. Stephen's Green as opposed to Westland Row (Pearse Street) where the DART currently operates to and which is more or less next to Dublin 4.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

If someone wants to get to the Stillorgan Road they can take a now quicker 59 and then switch to a 46a or 75.

Sadly, these types of journey's are time consuming given the likelihood of waiting around between changes. I need to re-emphasize that if we are to take cars off the roads, we need to give would-be commuters a much better incentive to make a switch to public transport. It takes me twice as long to get up to Stillorgan or UCD by public transport as it would if I drove. Forget all of this bull**** of documents like the DMURS forcing the performance of car journey's down "inconveniencing drivers" to make it "faster :rolleyes:" by public transport. There needs to be a far greater incentive than that and one that is faster i.e. a step up from the driving experience.

Unfortunately, skepticism such as the last few posts coupled with the lack of effort to provide a decent service is just fodder for continuing to drive. In the private sector, people have to work for the customers business by being courteous, listening to their needs and generally putting customers first. In the public sector, a lot of political meddling and poor work ethic results in the state owned public transport operators earning a reputation of chronic unreliability and self serving.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Keeping the 8 which (apart from the 8am one) doesn't carry many passengers until Monkstown.

That is why I would suggest a complete reroute via the upper road i.e N11. It would give it a new purpose. Plus, UCD and Stillorgan are obvious locations which everywhere within the borough should have direct connections (i.e. no changes) to. I have to re-iterate that this comment is another one where viability is based on poor loadings of a skeleton route. Unfortunately, a route like the 8 is bound to fail if there is such a limited number of departures per day. Frequency sells, plain and simple.

Amalgam

The new stops for the 7 near the Killiney Shopping Center aren't going to be as convenient. That will have some effect on traders and people with mobility issues, having to cross over to the right side of the road for the shops.

Bah humbug. I can't visualise where they might have the stops, as the run up to the roundabout is constricted by walls on either side and a rather small grass verge. Drivers tend to barrel along that stretch of road at some speed as well.

Stephen15

I wonder will they still retain a few 59's a day in Kiliney Village

crushproof

Amalgam wrote: »

The new stops for the 7 near the Killiney Shopping Center aren't going to be as convenient. That will have some effect on traders and people with mobility issues, having to cross over to the right side of the road for the shops.

Bah humbug. I can't visualise where they might have the stops, as the run up to the roundabout is constricted by walls on either side and a rather small grass verge. Drivers tend to barrel along that stretch of road at some speed as well.

It's not that difficult to knock in the wall and create a couple of new bus stops and pedestrian lights. Really not much of a difference between the current stops and where the new ones would be located.
If anything, the new stops would be closer to SuperValu.

Awaaf

Stephen15 wrote: »

An idea would would be to run a Dun Laoghaire area circular service. Run it every 20 or 30 minutes on weekdays, have it go Dun Laoghaire Station-Glenageary Hill- Sallynoggin-Honeypark-Monkstown Farm-Monkstown Avenue and back to Dun Laoghaire. Have a €1 flat fare on leap card or €1.50 cash. It wouldn't require too much resources. It would only need one bus probably a mini bus and a driver this could even be run by the council rather than DB as they have made loads of money lately.

I always felt an outer DL service would be a good idea but the one I have in mind would shuttle between Dalkey and Blackrock via Killiney SC and Bakers Corner (maybe via Pottery Road). It could be circular but the Blackrock-DL corridor is well served as is. The corridor (midway between DART/7 Route and N11 Busses/Luas) has a gap in my opinion.

crushproof

Well a big throng of folk out today on the streets of DL, lead by bandwangoner RBB as usual.
I fear they are going to get their way, with no real progress on streamlining bus services in the area. Ridiculous that the most loudest and moronic voices as usual get their say.

Stephen15

crushproof wrote: »

Well a big throng of folk out today on the streets of DL, lead by bandwangoner RBB as usual.
I fear they are going to get their way, with no real progress on streamlining bus services in the area. Ridiculous that the most loudest and moronic voices as usual get their say.

Well they didnt their say when they were rerouting the 46a out of Monkstown Farm

ted1

crushproof wrote: »

Well a big throng of folk out today on the streets of DL, lead by bandwangoner RBB as usual.
I fear they are going to get their way, with no real progress on streamlining bus services in the area. Ridiculous that the most loudest and moronic voices as usual get their say.

At this stage their just white noise , same gang different day.
Apparently the weather is to change tomorrow , so they'll be out again

OssianSmyth

Dublin Bus will hold an open information day in Dún Laoghaire Shopping Centre on Friday 31 July 2015 between 1200 and 1600 hours.

Larbre34

Very significant number of older people on low incomes in Sallynoggin. Dublin Bus claim they want to improve journey times for commuters.

If they were being clever about it they should introduce more AM and PM 7X services using Sallyglen Road and leave the 10-4pm 7 and 45a services largely unchanged.

Streamlining services is all very well, but whats the point if it continually moves services away from customers, especially vulnerable ones.

patrickbrophy18

Larbre34 wrote: »

Very significant number of older people on low incomes in Sallynoggin. Dublin Bus claim they want to improve journey times for commuters.

If they were being clever about it they should introduce more AM and PM 7X services using Sallyglen Road and leave the 10-4pm 7 and 45a services largely unchanged.

Taking the 7 out of Sallynoggin isn't the end of the world given that the Sallyglen Road is well less then half a mile at it's most farthest point from current 7 stops. The way Richard Boyd Barrett is putting it, you'd swear Sallynoggin and the Sallyglen Road were miles apart. The proposed 45A is a fair compromise. The slight drawback is that Somerton and the north-western edge of Sallynoggin Road Upper will lose the 45A. However, it's not like the less then fifth of a mile walk is much to ask. It takes five minutes.

Another welcomed change is taking the bus out of Newtown Avenue. The installation of traffic calming and a cycle lane has narrowed that road significantly. The way I see it, if people want traffic calming on their roads, they can forget buses taking longer by continuing to serve them. I remember being on the 8 on this stretch numerous times and it was a nightmare taking 10-15 extra minutes. Besides, long-haul routes like the 7 should take the most direct path to their destinations.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Streamlining services is all very well, but whats the point if it continually moves services away from customers, especially vulnerable ones.

Anyone who I've talked to about using the 7 instead of taking the car has stated that the 7 takes too long to get anywhere. Shaving 20 minutes might actually reverse this trend.

ted1

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Besides, long-haul routes like the 7 should take the most direct path to their destinations.

Busses are not long haul. There destinations are not from A to B. they are from A to Z with numerous destinations along the way.
they don't just serve the terminating points.

Chinasea

Larbre34 wrote: »

Very significant number of older people on low incomes in Sallynoggin.
Streamlining services is all very well, but whats the point if it continually moves services away from customers, especially vulnerable ones.

I am ALL for people using public transport (as opposed to cars) but, imo, there are way too many people and their 'companions' entitled to free travel. We have one of the highest ageing population in Europe = free travel, the highest amount of people per capita in receipt of disability = free travel, so how is this all supposed to be afforded. Perhaps if they were to pay some charge all be it nominal this could help towards supplying said services.

LXFlyer

ted1 wrote: »

Busses are not long haul. There destinations are not from A to B. they are from A to Z with numerous destinations along the way.
they don't just serve the terminating points.

Of course not, but the 7 is the main route on the Rock Road QBC (in the same way that the 46a is the main route on the Stillorgan QBC).

It's not a local route as such. When there is a direct alternative (in this case Sallyglen Road) main core routes such as the 7 should take it, provided an alternative local route exists to serve the heart of communities.

Given that there are access points to the stops on Sallyglen Road from Sallynoggin, and the 45a will still serve current 7 route, I'd suggest that the points between A and Z are still being served.