Failing badly at this Dairy lark

Aska

whelan2 wrote: »

Have a few questions, do you have an overdraft? YoU say the merchant wont get anything this month and got nothing last month, how does this work? I have been there with feck all money but every month I write a list of who is owed what then beside it write how much i can realistically pay, food on the table,esb, loans, are the main priority . Then everyone gets a small bit. Then put a line through it when its gone out of my account.

Yes a 5k overdraft, maxed out.

I have talked to the two merchants (private owned co. not Glanbia) and they know the story and all is ok with them cause come the end of the year I will get it paid off if not almost paid off. So they do cut me some slack (no calls etc.), but they also know the father so that helped in their leniency as they know what I am dealing with. so this month they may not get anything due to oil and car tax and insurance, tractor repairs etc. so until I see what is in next weeks cheque I can't be certain of what will be left available.

whelan2 wrote: »

Who minds the child when your oh is working? You said in your op that the last guy you drove for was hard to get full time work etc, I dont know if this has changed since then, oh has his own lorry and apart from the last 2 days has done no work in the lorry for the last 3 weeks. Realistically where do you see you and your family in ten years time?.

Sorry I must have made a pervious reply confusing. before I came home I was working for one near by haulier for a few years, like everything in the country the work dried up but rather than let anyone off he insisted on holding on to everyone and in the process us drivers only got 1, 2 maybe 3 days a week. so after all the years driving I did have some savings however they diminished rather quickly when I had almost 5 months of that carry on happening, I had personal loans at the time and a mortgage so they ate away at my reserve, so when I came back to the farm I had very little in my own savings.


Her mother looks after the young one, that's 120 a week. the OH works irregular hours some weeks so a regular childminder wouldn't suit so the OH is left with around 200 most weeks and she sorts food etc. and has a small loan of her own too from when she was in OZ a number of years ago.

whelan2 wrote: »

Sorry for the long post, you said you had 45 euro to do you the month, there are plenty of deals on the internet , think maldron hotels have a good deal, milk early one evening off to a hotel for the night-one with a swimming pool for the kid and b&b included- and relax , cows will still be there the next day but the break would be good for all of you.

I know a break would be good, but.... haha


I know some have said I need counselling, maybe I am in denial but I am not seeing that, what I see is a place that has taken so much out of me over the past few years. Am I depressed? yea probably, a tear or 2 have been shed at regular periods but that's me not seeing an end in sight, yes it may be there and others can see it but at present I am not.

When I used the statement earlier about curling up and dying I wasn't referring to suicidal tendencies that I may have 'cause no matter how bad things are and may be I won't do that to herself or the child. I have an 'out' option, I could slap a for sale sign in the gates and move on, setting it maybe the better option but I know of no one who went down this route.

It's embarrassing when they go on holidays in May and you are there trying to find a few quid for them to have to spend.

Milked out

Sam Kade wrote: »

You can but buildings and machinery can only be offset against tax over a number of years 5 I think.

Buildings can be written off over 8 yrs i think and machinery over 7 afaik.

MickeyShtyles

" I could slap a for sale sign in the gates and move on, setting it maybe the better option but I know of no one who went down this route"
What do you mean by setting it?
Renting it out?

Milked out

Aska wrote: »

Yes a 5k overdraft, maxed out.

I have talked to the two merchants (private owned co. not Glanbia) and they know the story and all is ok with them cause come the end of the year I will get it paid off if not almost paid off. So they do cut me some slack (no calls etc.), but they also know the father so that helped in their leniency as they know what I am dealing with. so this month they may not get anything due to oil and car tax and insurance, tractor repairs etc. so until I see what is in next weeks cheque I can't be certain of what will be left available.




Sorry I must have made a pervious reply confusing. before I came home I was working for one near by haulier for a few years, like everything in the country the work dried up but rather than let anyone off he insisted on holding on to everyone and in the process us drivers only got 1, 2 maybe 3 days a week. so after all the years driving I did have some savings however they diminished rather quickly when I had almost 5 months of that carry on happening, I had personal loans at the time and a mortgage so they ate away at my reserve, so when I came back to the farm I had very little in my own savings.


Her mother looks after the young one, that's 120 a week. the OH works irregular hours some weeks so a regular childminder wouldn't suit so the OH is left with around 200 most weeks and she sorts food etc. and has a small loan of her own too from when she was in OZ a number of years ago.




I know a break would be good, but.... haha


I know some have said I need counselling, maybe I am in denial but I am not seeing that, what I see is a place that has taken so much out of me over the past few years. Am I depressed? yea probably, a tear or 2 have been shed at regular periods but that's me not seeing an end in sight, yes it may be there and others can see it but at present I am not.

When I used the statement earlier about curling up and dying I wasn't referring to suicidal tendencies that I may have 'cause no matter how bad things are and may be I won't do that to herself or the child. I have an 'out' option, I could slap a for sale sign in the gates and move on, setting it maybe the better option but I know of no one who went down this route.

It's embarrassing when they go on holidays in May and you are there trying to find a few quid for them to have to spend.

You have made progress in increasing numbers and keeping the place going, and you have also spoke to those you owe money too and there is know doubt they respect you for that. it could be the resentment of your father that could be making all that needs to be done seem much more impossible to get thru. most of us have been there at some point where days and months could be spent going thru stuff in your own head and it can really wear you out. i assume this is what most mean by a councillor being a good idea, not that there is anything wrong with you but just that they can be the person to vent and fcuk and blind to if you want, more a chance to blowout if nothing else.
On the farming front as others have said if you can put down on paper all debts owed and then talk to the bank about putting things over a longer period it will ease cash flow pressures and even in a few years when you get ahead of things you can always pay a bit extra off it if u want . Joining a discussion group as the lads said would be a massive gain as the majority will give you options you wont see yourself. Two people which may help you in making both farm and finances more manageable would be a good ag accountant and an ag advisor be it teagasc or private. They will have seen or dealt with cases similar worse and better than yours and are people you can trash things out wit in private on a business sense. You are doing a good job and just need a bit of direction and to get the resentment out of your head to think clearly

Timmaay

In general there is still a serious stigma against councilling etc, as far as I'm concerned seeing a councillor should be seen in the same light as visiting a dentist if you got a tooth ache or going to a physio for a sports injury, you wouldn't bat an eyelid about doing either of the 2nd two things there, but having to go see a councillor is seen as some sort of failure still.

whelan2

you probably dont need to go to a counsellor but by talking on here and not bottling it up it feels like its a problem shared. Not being smart here but whats stopping you looking after the kid and saving the 120 a week?

Timmaay

whelan2 wrote: »

you probably dont need to go to a counsellor but by talking on here and not bottling it up it feels like its a problem shared. Not being smart here but whats stopping you looking after the kid and saving the 120 a week?

Us men can't multi task ha

Panch18

Aska wrote: »

A lot of posters talking of consolidating loans, can I ask this then please. What about setting the place? has anyone done this before or been close to someone who has?

Maybe I am looking at it with rose tinted glasses but all I can nearly see is good from that scenario.

95 Acres
58 Cows
8 Maiden heifers
11 FR H calves
1 FR Bull.
(2 x sheepdogs ha)
Sheds
Machinery
SFP (10k)

Surely that would draw in some amount of money while then working (driving again) for 500 a week in the hand if in Ireland or 650 for UK Ireland. While also getting a life back

Aska - first things first - I have a neighbour with almost identical number of acres, cows etc. and he has paid 25k per annum in tax for the last few years - so the income is there to be made from your set up - so that should be your number 1 goal and gives you something to focus on

There are 2 separate but related issues here from what I can see, firstly there is a financial mess and secondly the farm could do with updating/improving. Be under no illusions that the financial side is by far your biggest problem, things like roadways etc. are only a side issue and will sort themselves out once the finances are sorted

So the first thing that you should do list all of your loans, how long is left on repayments of your loans. all of your amounts outstanding to creditors and how much your monthly repayments are. I would include your personal loans in this as well - because I have a feeling that they are draining you as much as anything

List them all and we can start from there

also you don't need a bloody counsellor - you need the best financial advice possible - because money is the cause of all of your problems and worries - sort that out and you won't give a damn about the father and his smart ass comments

lakill Farm

I have followed this thread since yesterday and only giving my opinion, a mix of professional opinion based on current experiences and my limited farming experience.

* 5 year farm plan if you had no financial constraints , listed in order of preference ( realistic items like more stock, or reseeding)
* cost benefit of each of the items in the plan to the enterprise. ie roadways or reseeding our housing etc
* sit down and complete a business plan with a professional
* go and refinance your remaining 3 year loan and the farm development into a 10 year loan . put a cap of 80-100k on the loan. it will be paid when your 50 and you will have 10 years of benefit from the investment now
* 80/100k loan over 10 years will be the single farm payment worst case and no other payments each month. Your cashflow will improve
* the investment can be offset against the tax. selling 7 cows (€7,000) killed your potential earning so set up a monthly direct debit.

other ways of financing
* milk cows on relief maybe to fit around your own milking. Boost your income
* rent a few acres to the veg lads? and as part of the plan they reseed with grass seed?
* keep bull calves till 10 months old and sell to boost your reduced winter income

just do it

OP

First and foremost fair f*cks for your honesty and getting it off your chest. Maybe this thread will be a great step on the road to recovery.

I also took over a few years ago and couldn't see the progress I'd made, rather the things I still needed to do. I too would have been embarrassed to have people visit. However now that I've visited plenty good well respected farms I'm realising it ain't that bad. What I'm trying to say is if you join a discussion group you'll suddenly realise the farms that you think are brilliant also have warts. You will also find most the lads will know you're scenario, be able to guess the financial straights you're in, and be very supportive. I reckon a few outings with them will give you back your mojo

In effect you've stood back and are looking at what is your next best move. You've stood outside the forest so you can see the trees. Decide on your strategy and go for it. What I see from the posts is a farm that is in transition and you are now on the brink of making a real go of it. Looking at your SR you still have room for expansion.

Best of luck.

just do it

Now a farming question. Are you paddock grazing and grass measuring? For dumbos like me that means pre-grazing height of 10cm and residual of 4cm. A few rotations of this and I bet your solids will improve

Miname

lakill Farm wrote: »

I have followed this thread since yesterday and only giving my opinion, a mix of professional opinion based on current experiences and my limited farming experience.

* 5 year farm plan if you had no financial constraints , listed in order of preference ( realistic items like more stock, or reseeding)
* cost benefit of each of the items in the plan to the enterprise. ie roadways or reseeding our housing etc
* sit down and complete a business plan with a professional
* go and refinance your remaining 3 year loan and the farm development into a 10 year loan . put a cap of 80-100k on the loan. it will be paid when your 50 and you will have 10 years of benefit from the investment now
* 80/100k loan over 10 years will be the single farm payment worst case and no other payments each month. Your cashflow will improve
* the investment can be offset against the tax. selling 7 cows (€7,000) killed your potential earning so set up a monthly direct debit.

other ways of financing
* milk cows on relief maybe to fit around your own milking. Boost your income
* rent a few acres to the veg lads? and as part of the plan they reseed with grass seed?
* keep bull calves till 10 months old and sell to boost your reduced winter income

I done a fair share of what lakill has said this year regarding the plans, my Teagasc advisor said I was over ambitious with them but it's surprising when it's written down and planned out that it actually falls into place fairly quickly. I've far surpassed what I'd expected to do and I genuinely don't know how I even managed to finance a lot of it. I've skipped into some stuff I'd planned for year five and over and back a bit but it seems to be working. It may also sound bad but I actually got a great sense of fulfilment and enjoyment out of it. I had the discussion group out for a meeting and it's great to have all their views whether that be good or bad or even the odd sneering ones that give you the kick to say "well I'll show that f**ker".

visatorro

most thanked opening post in farming and forestry?

Aska

just do it wrote: »

Now a farming question. Are you paddock grazing and grass measuring? For dumbos like me that means pre-grazing height of 10cm and residual of 4cm. A few rotations of this and I bet your solids will improve

Yes I am paddock grazing, however due to the poor state of things I wouldn't get close to a 21 day rotation, a little better at this moment in time as I have 34 acres back in the scheme since silage cutting, but some paddocks will be abused and they will be back on them way sooner than the 21 days. Also not all fields are paddocked off.

As for grass measuring, if there is a hint of green on the ground the wire opens, Ha. No never measured, find it useless for the rotation that's in place at present.

Sam Kade

Panch18 wrote: »

Aska - first things first - I have a neighbour with almost identical number of acres, cows etc. and he has paid 25k per annum in tax for the last few years - so the income is there to be made from your set up - so that should be your number 1 goal and gives you something to focus on

There are 2 separate but related issues here from what I can see, firstly there is a financial mess and secondly the farm could do with updating/improving. Be under no illusions that the financial side is by far your biggest problem, things like roadways etc. are only a side issue and will sort themselves out once the finances are sorted

So the first thing that you should do list all of your loans, how long is left on repayments of your loans. all of your amounts outstanding to creditors and how much your monthly repayments are. I would include your personal loans in this as well - because I have a feeling that they are draining you as much as anything

List them all and we can start from there

also you don't need a bloody counsellor - you need the best financial advice possible - because money is the cause of all of your problems and worries - sort that out and you won't give a damn about the father and his smart ass comments

Even with record milk prices over the last few years if he's paying 25k in tax with that size operation he might want to get a better accountant.

kevthegaff

Aska wrote: »

Yes I am paddock grazing, however due to the poor state of things I wouldn't get close to a 21 day rotation, a little better at this moment in time as I have 34 acres back in the scheme since silage cutting, but some paddocks will be abused and they will be back on them way sooner than the 21 days. Also not all fields are paddocked off.

As for grass measuring, if there is a hint of green on the ground the wire opens, Ha. No never measured, find it useless for the rotation that's in place at present.

Ur cows are still milking 20 litres? U have to look at the potential if paddocks were in place
, 21 day rotation, reseeding. Theres lots more in your cows solids and growth potential

just do it

Aska. It strikes me that your very close to having things right. Would you make enquiries as to a good teagasc or independent advisor in your area and get them to come in and do a full nuts and bolts assessment of your place with a view to drawing up a plan? They will offer a much more structured approach to what you can get on here.

Panch18

Sam Kade wrote: »

Even with record milk prices over the last few years if he's paying 25k in tax with that size operation he might want to get a better accountant.

Well not really no

He has fairly high yielding cows running at low costs on a place that has no borrowings, he's been at the game for 35 years at a high level

you'd expect him to be making fair profits and paying tax correspondingly - because if he wasn't making money at it then nobody would be

Farmer Pudsey

Sam Kade wrote: »

Even with record milk prices over the last few years if he's paying 25k in tax with that size operation he might want to get a better accountant.

Your accountant is only as good as yourself.

frazzledhome

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Your accountant is only as good as yourself.

That is so so true.

You don't need to know the tax codes but need to be informed enough to ask questions.

No point panicking when ROS form arrives and then blaming your accountant. Tax planning is a constant medium term decision process.

Your accountant needs to know what your plans and goals are re your business. If they don't there can't be a plan.

How many have their 2014 accounts finalised and how long ago?

td5man

frazzledhome wrote: »

That is so so true.

You don't need to know the tax codes but need to be informed enough to ask questions.

No point panicking when ROS form arrives and then blaming your accountant. Tax planning is a constant medium term decision process.

Your accountant needs to know what your plans and goals are re your business. If they don't there can't be a plan.

How many have their 2014 accounts finalised and how long ago?

Need to get the whip out.

darragh_haven

frazzledhome wrote: »

That is so so true.

You don't need to know the tax codes but need to be informed enough to ask questions.

No point panicking when ROS form arrives and then blaming your accountant. Tax planning is a constant medium term decision process.

Your accountant needs to know what your plans and goals are re your business. If they don't there can't be a plan.

How many have their 2014 accounts finalised and how long ago?

Submitted last week. Paperwork was always a strong point here. Have to give my dad credit for it.

jetfiremuck

Another way to look at it is if you add up all the outstanding debt and outgoings ....then apply that against the value of the land, would you go to a bank and take a mortgage out to buy it if you would consider it a good deal it's the layout of the outgoing and outstanding debts that's causing the hassle. As long as you are making payments to reduce the debt you are making progress. You are turning around a farm setup that has been badly run and managed for years. Some parents though blamed are helpless individuals. If you could muster some confidence in your mother (sounds like a good working grafter) in spite of her husband can give you help and maybe get your father excited about farming again. Keep at it it'll come right. I'd set a goal list and start clearing the easy stuff first to give you a boost. Good luck

kowtow

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Your accountant is only as good as yourself.

If he was, I think I'd pack it all in and take up basket weaving.

lakill Farm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Your accountant is only as good as yourself.

so true.

kerryjack

Interesting tread this looking in I think a lot of lads looking in are drooling at what you have got here no siblings nosing around the place looking for there share a good working farm with very modest debt per cow your ould lad certainly hsd a few problems but it was common enough for farmers back then to lash in to the porter on mart days or whatever day took there fancy but farming can be a very lonely occupation at times and I know back then the public houses would be hoping I know because I was there trying to get my ould lad home to milk the cows my ould lad is nearly 90 now so the porter didn't kill him my advice OP is forget about the past and look to the future some fine evening milk early have a BQ with family including your parents and don't talk farming

Markcheese

kerryjack wrote: »

Interesting tread this looking in I think a lot of lads looking in are drooling at what you have got here no siblings nosing around the place looking for there share a good working farm with very modest debt per cow your ould lad certainly hsd a few problems but it was common enough for farmers back then to lash in to the porter on mart days or whatever day took there fancy but farming can be a very lonely occupation at times and I know back then the public houses would be hoping I know because I was there trying to get my ould lad home to milk the cows my ould lad is nearly 90 now so the porter didn't kill him my advice OP is forget about the past and look to the future some fine evening milk early have a BQ with family including your parents and don't talk farming

That's all true but not as easy to see it that way when you're asset rich but very cash poor .
And lads telling you what a great job you've got when you're struggling to have cash to pay simple house hold bills- ain't gonna do much either..
But hang in there - a bit of effective planning -farm and business - possibly restructuring debt and maybe taking more to make life easier-

Aska

Well a lot of soul searching has gone on over the past few weeks (that wont put any cash in the account though!) and to be honest I was still on the fence, had an adviser out and he recommended that I get more cows before spending money on reseeding etc... he reckons I am understocked by approx. 30-35 cows, now the problem I have with that is, 30 odd cows will cost a fair chunk them factor in another shed will be required to house them and also the 6 unit parlour will be a challenge with almost 90 cows if that was to be come reality.

So I said to myself I would get the heard test this week out of the way first, well low and behold I had 7 inconclusives in the herd. 4 cows and 3 maiden heifers (bringing my grand total of maiden heifers to the mighty figure of 4 remaining for this year (remember the tax man already got a bunch of them these a few months back)

So after that bombshell I have decided to get shot of these and do the test again in 42 days and try and come clear then and ship all off then.

mahoney_j

Aska wrote: »

Well a lot of soul searching has gone on over the past few weeks (that wont put any cash in the account though!) and to be honest I was still on the fence, had an adviser out and he recommended that I get more cows before spending money on reseeding etc... he reckons I am understocked by approx. 30-35 cows, now the problem I have with that is, 30 odd cows will cost a fair chunk them factor in another shed will be required to house them and also the 6 unit parlour will be a challenge with almost 90 cows if that was to be come reality.

So I said to myself I would get the heard test this week out of the way first, well low and behold I had 7 inconclusives in the herd. 4 cows and 3 maiden heifers (bringing my grand total of maiden heifers to the mighty figure of 4 remaining for this year (remember the tax man already got a bunch of them these a few months back)

So after that bombshell I have decided to get shot of these and do the test again in 42 days and try and come clear then and ship all off then.

Aghh ****e ,sorry to hear that .try and stay positive anyway even though easier said than done I know

whelan2

Aska wrote: »

Well a lot of soul searching has gone on over the past few weeks (that wont put any cash in the account though!) and to be honest I was still on the fence, had an adviser out and he recommended that I get more cows before spending money on reseeding etc... he reckons I am understocked by approx. 30-35 cows, now the problem I have with that is, 30 odd cows will cost a fair chunk them factor in another shed will be required to house them and also the 6 unit parlour will be a challenge with almost 90 cows if that was to be come reality.

So I said to myself I would get the heard test this week out of the way first, well low and behold I had 7 inconclusives in the herd. 4 cows and 3 maiden heifers (bringing my grand total of maiden heifers to the mighty figure of 4 remaining for this year (remember the tax man already got a bunch of them these a few months back)

So after that bombshell I have decided to get shot of these and do the test again in 42 days and try and come clear then and ship all off then.

Did you ask the advisor what would you be paying for the 30 extra cows with?

Sam Kade

whelan2 wrote: »

Did you ask the advisor what would you be paying for the 30 extra cows with?

Get it off the money tree

Aska

whelan2 wrote: »

Did you ask the advisor what would you be paying for the 30 extra cows with?

I think he could see the flaws in his statement once he looked at the books.

I get his idea, it was that you want milk going out the gate which in turns brings a few quid back in but there's nothing I can sell to get such numbers in

Aska

mahoney_j wrote: »

Aghh ****e ,sorry to hear that .try and stay positive anyway even though easier said than done I know

feck off I had enough positives for one day haha

Bullocks

Aska wrote: »

feck off I had enough positives for one day haha

Fair play to you Aska, at least you can pick a joke out of it ! Hopefully you will go clear in the next test

Aska

Bullocks wrote: »

Fair play to you Aska, at least you can pick a joke out of it ! Hopefully you will go clear in the next test

You have to laugh at time, else you would go crazy, I was crazy earlier in the day but it's time to carry on now.

I am going down the official 'quick slaughter' route which will probably annoy some here, but that's my choice now and I will take the hit on them.

cute geoge

Aska wrote: »

You have to laugh at time, else you would go crazy, I was crazy earlier in the day but it's time to carry on now.

I am going down the official 'quick slaughter' route which will probably annoy some here, but that's my choice now and I will take the hit on them.

IT is probably the best bet with that no. of doubtfulls . You get the ball rolling so u get the herd tested again in 60 days and hopefully get all clear for next spring

Aska

cute geoge wrote: »

IT is probably the best bet with that no. of doubtfulls . You get the ball rolling so u get the herd tested again in 60 days and hopefully get all clear for next spring

No 42 days and if clear then all is good to sell.

The DVO said get the permit to slaughter and you have 3 options, one await valuation etc, another is slaughter and request they look at the glans and the last is tick the box not to check the glans. But those two ways I only get piss poor factory price but could be clear after one test.

Not sure why the 'don't check the glans' option is even available really, seems weird to me.

greysides

I've known seven inconclusives to come okay on a retest but it would be well against the odds. Getting rid is sensible from a TB point of view, although it's very poor help in the bigger scheme of things.

jimmy G M

Aska wrote: »

So after that bombshell I have decided to get shot of these and do the test again in 42 days and try and come clear then and ship all off then.

So you intend to sell all stock if clear?

cute geoge

What would be the worst case scenearo if you retested these cows and they went down , would you have to wait long to retest the herd after reactors being removed and would you have to test herd twice to get allclear
I had a couple of doubtfulls last year and got them retested clear after 42 days so it might be worth a gamble.
Its most important in spring to be clear to sell and buy so do your maths and work back from mid feburary the no. of days locked up if your cows show up with tb'
It is most convienent for dept. if you slaughter these doubffulls immediately

Bscan86

Aska believe it or not you're doing good, as others have mentioned could you gather all your debts into 1 long term loan? With the extra available money you wud have you could by degrees reseed field by field and starting from the yard lay an affordable amount of road year after year and in 5 years think of the work you would have done. I'm not for a minute saying its a piece of piss but there are options out there. Also and I could be wrong but maybe the justified anger you have towards your father is preventing you from seeing things ain't all bad. If you can be paying out over €4,000/month you must be doing something right! Quit the winter milking and go driving a lorry: dry warm conditions and guaranteed income which would keep the wolves from the door easily. Keep up the good work