Does it pay to do your own silage?

Miname

rock_face wrote: »

How do you find the mounted moco to work with?
A lot of people seem to be put off by the weight of them hanging out to the side compared to the trailed items.

It's heavy alright 820 kg . I haven't hit a field with it yet as I still have a half an hours work on it tomorrow evening. New blades, belts,change the oil, new bungs, a new cover and I hope to have it sorted tomorrow.

poor farmer

tomwaterford wrote: »

The only really possible to make it pay is if you can possibly put a value on the increased quality of the silage...as around here contractors who are realiable are rare (I do pay on the high side for a reliable contractor here...who I can count on when I'm away working)

Agreed ,you have more control at can do the job at the optimum time.But i probably end up with more bales because my baler wont pack a bale as well as a new one. meaning more net/ plastic /handling

Timmaay

frazzledhome wrote: »

That's all great but if you bought 15 milking cows you'd have an appreciating asset instead of a depreciating liability

Only an extra row in the parlour twice a day, (call it 20mins extra work a day on average), assuming them 15 cows return you 500e profit each on average per year, that's 7500e extra profit, for a rough guess of 72hrs extra work (20mins/day), that's paying you about 60euro/hour, against basically a drivers rate of 10e/hr if you spend the money on silage equipment instead. This sort of economics is the main reason I'm utterly allergic to buying machinery!

tomwaterford

poor farmer wrote: »

Agreed ,you have more control at can do the job at the optimum time.But i probably end up with more bales because my baler wont pack a bale as well as a new one. meaning more net/ plastic /handling

What price is a new baler (say welger type)..ordinary run of the mill.machine...or a 3-5 year one fully serviced and gaurenteed???

How many less bales would ya make??


Just curious?...I seen neighbours here who do baling for me have one they told me and all...but I'm fcuked if I remember


Do you have it insured for the bigger repairs (rollers)

Deepsouthwest

frazzledhome wrote: »

That's all great but if you bought 15 milking cows you'd have an appreciating asset instead of a depreciating liability

I don't see the relevance in this, it's about cutting silage, if it was about ROI I'd be confident we could find something better than cows as well!

frazzledhome

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

I don't see the relevance in this, it's about cutting silage, if it was about ROI I'd be confident we could find something better than cows as well!

I agree, I was only thinking out loud and questioning my self.

We mow, tedd and pit ourselves. I'm now asking very serious questions re the viability of a big tractor that mows silage, spreads slurry and fert and hauls cattle.

We have loader and that's not negotiable as it feeds everything.

I'm finding this thread interesting and making me look at things I've only glanced at heretofore.

On the mowing etc Ive no doubt it pays as you can go at the drop of a hat. In 2012 it was the reason we made good quality silage even with such small windows.

We've looked at adding a wagon to the operation but with the cost of them we can't stack it up.

We are getting silage raked and wagoned to the pit for <&40/acre so it wouldn't make sense for us to go down that route.

Farmer Pudsey

rock_face wrote: »

Agreed, but at the end of the five years you still have the moco (which would have only cut 650a in the intervening years - many contractors would cut double/triple that in a single season) worth at least €10k and with care it will last many more years.

Therefore, your cutting actually works out at:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €10k) / (130a x 5y) = €15/acre spread across the five years of payment.


Assuming the guy is capable, it should at least run for another 5 seasons at the end of which he has a fair machine worth approx €5000:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €5k) / (130a x 10y) = €11/acre

Over ten years you will have given the contractor: €20 x (130a x 10y) = €26,000

The mower initially cost €20k, so there is a 'saving' of €6k and you still have the €5k value of the mower. So, you have €11k of margin.

* Yes I appreciate that these figure miss out diesel and maintenance. However, it is intended to show things are not a clear yes/no. Plus initially purchasing a fresh second hand item makes the figures read even better.

It is then during this period that you start making the savings - when the capital has been paid off (and whatever tax relief you get too) - you are playing a long game here. The more mechanically sympathetic you are the longer the machine will last.

Also there is no reason to buy new, you can get good 2nd hand items for much less and this would move the numbers a lot closer. Get a good 2nd hand item from a brand like the Kuhn, check the welds and the bed and you should be good to go.

As the man is cutting 130a of silage, I assume a big farm and there would be a machine capable of driving it. Mowing is one of the hardest jobs on a tractor. Contractors go at full tilt all the time. When you are your own operator you can afford to go a bit easier and not force the grass.

However, as I said in my initial post if you are having to buy in drivers and mechanics then it is not as an attractive an option and you should leave the burden with them. No reason why they can't mow for you and then you finish the job yourself. If you pay your bills to them, they'll be back next year.

There is no right or wrong answer to the original question.

The devil can quote scripture for his own use. I am not being snotty but you are double accounting. Not allowing for diesel and maitenance, what about wear and tear on your tractor. The value of 20K is it worth 5%/year that is 1K in hidden costs.

You also need to factor in tax issue. You are paying out 2600 for cutting this is a straight line farm costs. 20K spend on machinery gives a capital allowance of 2500/year however it is only allowable again Tax and PRSI you have to pay USC on it at 5% that is another 125 gone west.

Mind you I bought a 2nd hand 8' disc mower however I will get contractor to do first cut with a mower conditioner, I will only do paddocks, 2nd and third cut from hybrids/red clover. Contractor was charging same as for heavy first cut cost to me was 4/bale as opposed to 2/bale

rock_face wrote: »

And cows can't be a liability!!!???

The thread is about buying silage equipment - not dairy cows.

One impacts on the other if I tie 20K+ of investment in machinery what impact will it have on other farm activity, how will it limit expansion is that money better spend else where. It amazes me lots of lads will spend 20K on machinery with out a blink but they will not spray the f@@king docks

rock_face wrote: »

How do you find the mounted moco to work with?
A lot of people seem to be put off by the weight of them hanging out to the side compared to the trailed items.

For a contractor these are the mojo faster on the road easier to get in and out of fields faster to operate.

tomwaterford wrote: »

The only really possible to make it pay is if you can possibly put a value on the increased quality of the silage...as around here contractors who are realiable are rare (I do pay on the high side for a reliable contractor here...who I can count on when I'm away working)

Most contractors will eat you for an extra 50c or euro/bale from poor farmers example he nearly still be better off with a contractor at that money.

tomwaterford

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The devil can quote scripture for his own use. I am not being snotty but you are double accounting. Not allowing for diesel and maitenance, what about wear and tear on your tractor. The value of 20K is it worth 5%/year that is 1K in hidden costs.

You also need to factor in tax issue. You are paying out 2600 for cutting this is a straight line farm costs. 20K spend on machinery gives a capital allowance of 2500/year however it is only allowable again Tax and PRSI you have to pay USC on it at 5% that is another 125 gone west.

Mind you I bought a 2nd hand 8' disc mower however I will get contractor to do first cut with a mower conditioner, I will only do paddocks, 2nd and third cut from hybrids/red clover. Contractor was charging same as for heavy first cut cost to me was 4/bale as opposed to 2/bale



One impacts on the other if I tie 20K+ of investment in machinery what impact will it have on other farm activity, how will it limit expansion is that money better spend else where. It amazes me lots of lads will spend 20K on machinery with out a blink but they will not spray the f@@king docks



For a contractor these are the mojo faster on the road easier to get in and out of fields faster to operate.



Most contractors will eat you for an extra 50c or euro/bale from poor farmers example he nearly still be better off with a contractor at that money.

I'm not doubting you (I've no intention of ever cutting my own silage here)....just saying I don't mind paying the extra bit here to have a job gaurenteed done and done right...as last thing you want in work is to be chasing up fellas and stress of it...worth the extra few quid IMO...as who wants to come away from work to stick up on a tractor....horrible places to spend the day.....would 200 times rather be at the sheep

Deepsouthwest

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

"The devil can quote scripture for his own use."That's some put down, remind me to never fcuk with u Pudsey

Deepsouthwest

Anyone care to put a cost on mowing their own silage vs a contractor at €25/acre?

frazzledhome

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Anyone care to put a cost on mowing their own silage vs a contractor at €25/acre?

14 litres per hr, aprox 7 acres. I don't know how much of the tractor costs to charge.

Farmer Pudsey

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Anyone care to put a cost on mowing their own silage vs a contractor at €25/acre?

It about the only place in contracting where there is a bit of fat. However for first cut I prefer a mower conditioner. I cut about 8 acres of Hybrids/ red clover and 10 acres of normal silage. This usually averages 11-12 bales/acre.

This year I have already cut 8 acres of paddocks and will cut hybrids and red clover twice. I will take another 3-5 acres of paddocks as well. Previously i could never justify taking out paddocks so some went too strong that is why I bought disc mower. If the same as this year it will cut about 25 acres/year and top another 8-12 acres. The 80 Hp 4WD will work it. The 25 acres would cost me 625 to cut/year. Throw in topping at 15/acre Disc mower cost 3200. so about a 5 year pay back period. Diesel 2-3/acre and about 20 minutes/acre to cut.

It will add about 8 hours work/year to the tractor however as I do low enough hours I only need to service once/year.

rock_face

I acknowledged that clearly in my post about diesel and wear etc. I was sticking with the maths used by the poster I was replying to.

However I also said that the second hand route would be better. A subsequent poster talked about mowing 160a for 6 years with one they bought for over €4100. Plug those figures in and it looks a lot better.

I don't advocate a new moco for that amount of grass.

Zr105

rock_face wrote: »

Agreed, but at the end of the five years you still have the moco (which would have only cut 650a in the intervening years - many contractors would cut double/triple that in a single season) worth at least €10k and with care it will last many more years.

Therefore, your cutting actually works out at:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €10k) / (130a x 5y) = €15/acre spread across the five years of payment.


Assuming the guy is capable, it should at least run for another 5 seasons at the end of which he has a fair machine worth approx €5000:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €5k) / (130a x 10y) = €11/acre

Over ten years you will have given the contractor: €20 x (130a x 10y) = €26,000

The mower initially cost €20k, so there is a 'saving' of €6k and you still have the €5k value of the mower. So, you have €11k of margin.

* Yes I appreciate that these figure miss out diesel and maintenance. However, it is intended to show things are not a clear yes/no. Plus initially purchasing a fresh second hand item makes the figures read even better.

It is then during this period that you start making the savings - when the capital has been paid off (and whatever tax relief you get too) - you are playing a long game here. The more mechanically sympathetic you are the longer the machine will last.

Also there is no reason to buy new, you can get good 2nd hand items for much less and this would move the numbers a lot closer. Get a good 2nd hand item from a brand like the Kuhn, check the welds and the bed and you should be good to go.

As the man is cutting 130a of silage, I assume a big farm and there would be a machine capable of driving it. Mowing is one of the hardest jobs on a tractor. Contractors go at full tilt all the time. When you are your own operator you can afford to go a bit easier and not force the grass.

However, as I said in my initial post if you are having to buy in drivers and mechanics then it is not as an attractive an option and you should leave the burden with them. No reason why they can't mow for you and then you finish the job yourself. If you pay your bills to them, they'll be back next year.

There is no right or wrong answer to the original question.

I certainly don't disagree with your figures either but I'd say we would both be thinking along the same lines in that for 130 acres a year there's no need to go to the expense of a new mower, and that for that a mount a tidy 2nd hand mower bought right will do the same work, be a long time wearing out and be returning money much much sooner.
The biggest problem with going all the way to 20k is that your having to put that all up front to make a potential saving in years down the line, I'd rather put say the half of it in and the other half else where that could make more financial sense/better roi....

As for running costs on a mower, roughly 3.5ltr/acre diesel first cut, 7acre/hr@say 40/hr tractor running+driver+maintenance/repairs works out what in or around €10/acre cost?

keep going

Its very hard to justify running a mower compared to contractor charges but it will pay for itself over and over again in grass management terms and its great to have a bit of control when cutting silage.on a straight sums basis contractor is away cheaper but for grass farmers I now cant see how you could do without one and it would pay for itself over and over again.as regards having all your own kit for silage, if you have enough acerage to justify it you havent time to do it

twin_beacon

good discussion.
we make around 350 bales a year, part time farm. We have our own drum mower that we really only use if we are making hay, it hasn't been used since 2013.

We dont make a pit, so I cant really comment on that end of things. For people making all bales like ourselves there are very few farms where it would be cost effective to make your own bales. There are many factors to consider, and not just the cost.
We are very lucky, we have a reliable contractor that makes very well packed bales. There is also competition between contractors, which is win win for the farmer.

Things to consider:
1. Cost of buying Baler + wrapper. Thats assuming you already own a mower and a tractor with enough horse power. Also, what can you get for your money.
2. What will the bales be like. A large contractor more than likely have a baler less than three years old, and know how to drive them correctly. They will also leave the swards in the condition they like when mowing to produce the best bale. Mchale balers seem to be everywhere now, they make a good well chopped, well packed bale if driven correctly. Can your baler with you at the controls make a bale as good as the contractor? will it be chopped as well? If not, you are in for a long winter for forking!
3. How many bales am I making to make it cost effective. this really depends on the gear you buy and how much you spend, and if you have to hire in extra labor. Don't forget to add in your own time here.
4. Knowledge of machinery. Do yo know the ins and outs of a mower, baler and wrapper? I'll throw my hands up and say I know nothing about them. If it goes wrong can you fix it, and how much will it cost?
5. Time management. This is the deciding factor for a lot of people, how long will it take to make the bales, and can they be made in a window without rain? If you are making bales over 2 days, the bales from day 1 have to be brought into the yard, this will delay the baling on day 2. However, that can be turned around, if your contractor is not reliable, you might well have a better chance of making your own bales before the rain!

In my local area, 2 medium/large farmers joined forces and bought a mower, baler and wrapper for their own use. Of course there are massive drawbacks to this too, but also advantages.

C0N0R

Kind of a related question, is there a massive advantage to using a conditionor mower or for surplus bales is a normal disc mower sufficient? If it's going to be tedded does that make a difference? What I'm thinking is a disc mower that can be used for topping instead of the dreaded topper and also can be used for mowing surplus paddocks. First cut silage will be mowed by contractor with moco and second cut can be done by me or contractor. What I'm asking is do I need a conditionor or not?

il gatto

C0N0R wrote: »

Kind of a related question, is there a massive advantage to using a conditionor mower or for surplus bales is a normal disc mower sufficient? If it's going to be tedded does that make a difference? What I'm thinking is a disc mower that can be used for topping instead of the dreaded topper and also can be used for mowing surplus paddocks. First cut silage will be mowed by contractor with moco and second cut can be done by me or contractor. What I'm asking is do I need a conditionor or not?

They're an expensive bit of kit. People used disc mowers for decades before conditioners arrived on the scene. So you don't need one. If it's going to be tedded anyway, the conditioner will save less time than if you were baling/harvesting immediately.
If you can get by with the disc mower, do. Save a few grand.

CloughCasey1

yellow50HX wrote: »

Picked up a disc mower for ourselves to cut silage and do some topping and forward mowing. Had looked into other equipment like a baler and wrapper too but the extra expense of maintaining them and the time of also of actually running them wouldn't be ideal for me. Might look at a trailer for drawing in the bales as at present I use a keltec. I might change the trailer here and get one that can be fitted with an extenstion that I could load with the digger and tip off in the yard for the wrapper stacker.

Is there a conditioner on the mower and how tight does it cut to the ground? Contractors seem to like not having to cut and it saves 3 euro a bale or so. They like the phone call with I have a few acres rowed up. You'd usually get a reply of I'll be passing later.

C0N0R

il gatto wrote: »

They're an expensive bit of kit. People used disc mowers for decades before conditioners arrived on the scene. So you don't need one. If it's going to be tedded anyway, the conditioner will save less time than if you were baling/harvesting immediately.
If you can get by with the disc mower, do. Save a few grand.

First cut will be tedded and second cut to but surplus paddocks won't, will just be mowed and raked but with the lightness of the crop a wilt and a rake would be sufficient I'd hope

mf240

C0N0R wrote: »

Kind of a related question, is there a massive advantage to using a conditionor mower or for surplus bales is a normal disc mower sufficient? If it's going to be tedded does that make a difference? What I'm thinking is a disc mower that can be used for topping instead of the dreaded topper and also can be used for mowing surplus paddocks. First cut silage will be mowed by contractor with moco and second cut can be done by me or contractor. What I'm asking is do I need a conditionor or not?

No youd get away grand with a ordinary mower. Thats what i have and then its either raked or tedded then raked.

The mower a slurry tank a smallish dung spreader and a few bits is all i have.

Havent a clue about repairs so it wouldnt pay me to do my own silage.

Jb1989

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Is there a conditioner on the mower and how tight does it cut to the ground? Contractors seem to like not having to cut and it saves 3 euro a bale or so. They like the phone call with I have a few acres rowed up. You'd usually get a reply of I'll be passing later.

Contractors round here seem to rather mow themselves as if farmer mowed it they would spend the time giveing out about not being mowed to there likeing, too wide, too narrow, awkward corners, turning plots etc, and don't mention, rows done after a haybob, drives them mad, man I have now doesn't complain and that's why I have him.

farmerjj

Sam Kade wrote: »

For that acreage you would want to be buying new. It's very hard to pick up a good secondhand mower.

What hp would you need to drive a 10ft trailed mower with conditioner and grouper, would 125hps be enough?

cute geoge

farmerjj wrote: »

What hp would you need to drive a 10ft trailed mower with conditioner and grouper, would 125hps be enough?

Some mowers are harder drive
I have heard a contractor mowing silage flat out for years with 398
I guess you would be comfortable enough with 125hp

Zr105

farmerjj wrote: »

What hp would you need to drive a 10ft trailed mower with conditioner and grouper, would 125hps be enough?

Plenty of power! We were driving a 3m mounted moco on a 100hp 4pot for a couple of seasons!

il gatto

farmerjj wrote: »

What hp would you need to drive a 10ft trailed mower with conditioner and grouper, would 125hps be enough?

Loads. A six cylinder tractor is better than a four with turbo for that power though. It runs smoother and under less stress. A six cylinder will run that all day.

Sam Kade

twin_beacon wrote: »

good discussion.
we make around 350 bales a year, part time farm. We have our own drum mower that we really only use if we are making hay, it hasn't been used since 2013.

We dont make a pit, so I cant really comment on that end of things. For people making all bales like ourselves there are very few farms where it would be cost effective to make your own bales. There are many factors to consider, and not just the cost.
We are very lucky, we have a reliable contractor that makes very well packed bales. There is also competition between contractors, which is win win for the farmer.

Things to consider:
1. Cost of buying Baler + wrapper. Thats assuming you already own a mower and a tractor with enough horse power. Also, what can you get for your money.
2. What will the bales be like. A large contractor more than likely have a baler less than three years old, and know how to drive them correctly. They will also leave the swards in the condition they like when mowing to produce the best bale. Mchale balers seem to be everywhere now, they make a good well chopped, well packed bale if driven correctly. Can your baler with you at the controls make a bale as good as the contractor? will it be chopped as well? If not, you are in for a long winter for forking!
3. How many bales am I making to make it cost effective. this really depends on the gear you buy and how much you spend, and if you have to hire in extra labor. Don't forget to add in your own time here.
4. Knowledge of machinery. Do yo know the ins and outs of a mower, baler and wrapper? I'll throw my hands up and say I know nothing about them. If it goes wrong can you fix it, and how much will it cost?
5. Time management. This is the deciding factor for a lot of people, how long will it take to make the bales, and can they be made in a window without rain? If you are making bales over 2 days, the bales from day 1 have to be brought into the yard, this will delay the baling on day 2. However, that can be turned around, if your contractor is not reliable, you might well have a better chance of making your own bales before the rain!

In my local area, 2 medium/large farmers joined forces and bought a mower, baler and wrapper for their own use. Of course there are massive drawbacks to this too, but also advantages.

Round baling isn't the rocket science you make it out to be also mchale balers are not the be all and end all of baling silage. I've an rp12 baler that makes bricks of bales. A few years ago I had to get a contractor to finish baling when a bearing went in the rp12. He had a new john Deere baler, when feeding the John Deere bales fell apart and the rp12 bales couldn't be pulled apart without a lot of effort. That was even after the contractor baling in a low gear.

White Clover

Sam Kade wrote: »

Round baling isn't the rocket science you make it out to be also mchale balers are not the be all and end all of baling silage. I've an rp12 baler that makes bricks of bales. A few years ago I had to get a contractor to finish baling when a bearing went in the rp12. He had a new john Deere baler, when feeding the John Deere bales fell apart and the rp12 bales couldn't be pulled apart without a lot of effort. That was even after the contractor baling in a low gear.

The Deere bales were chopped I bet. Thats why they fell apart. Surely you can't be saying that an rp12 is a better baler than a JD 578 or 644 ?

9935452

White Clover wrote: »

The Deere bales were chopped I bet. Thats why they fell apart. Surely you can't be saying that an rp12 is a better baler than a JD 578 or 644 ?

The only way of comparing them is to weigh them.
But i would agree a well chopped bale will fall apart .
The man driving the deere may not have had the density turned all the way up.

welton john

Sam Kade wrote: »

Round baling isn't the rocket science you make it out to be also mchale balers are not the be all and end all of baling silage. I've an rp12 baler that makes bricks of bales. A few years ago I had to get a contractor to finish baling when a bearing went in the rp12. He had a new john Deere baler, when feeding the John Deere bales fell apart and the rp12 bales couldn't be pulled apart without a lot of effort. That was even after the contractor baling in a low gear.

But for every 3 bales the rp12 makes a contractors baler will make two or less. What about all your extra expense drawing, plastic,stacking ect?