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Doubling of steel cost due to CE certification for extension

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  • 09-07-2015 11:04pm
    #1
    Martin Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭


    Hi

    I am having an extension done soon and recently the builder sent a mail containing the following.

    "This year a new regulation came out concerning welding, all welding must be done by a CE certified welder. The courses to get these certs can cost between 6,000 and 12,000 euros. Inevitably the few fabricators that have these certs are charging extortionate prices. Our current job jumped from 3400 to 6500. If you employ an engineer he will make us use a certified fabricator , which will increase the steel cost."

    It seems unrealistic as the steel its self surely is the bulk of the cost and the welder has only to weld a plate onto the end of one of the beams. Does anyone have knowledge of this?

    Thanks Martin


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    #2
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    It's the steel that needs to be de certified not the welder.


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    #3
    Martin Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭Martin Joe


    Thanks Brian. Thats pretty much what i gathered for the internet but i wasn't sure. Strange as the builder has a back story about expensive courses that welders are taking.

    Do you know if a doubling of price is typical of what is being changed? Also, are the dangers in using uncertified steel?


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    #4
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Martin Joe wrote: »
    ........ Also, are the dangers in using uncertified steel?

    probably less than using an uncerted welder ?


    d39a158a1dc34fefbba278f641ca6036.md.jpg


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    #5
    Jeju
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Jeju


    The steel, bolts, weld and fabricator all have to be certified, this is why a lot of small operators are not able to afford to stay in business.


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    #6
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    So everything up till now is uncertified?? Will it fall down?


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    #7
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    shedweller wrote: »
    So everything up till now is uncertified?? Will it fall down?

    Probably not, but it might do away with builder doing extensive works to homes without advice from an engineer. Pulling out walls left right and centre and saying "agh sure a 200mm bean will do there" and making no allowance for connections, bearing etc


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    #8
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    BryanF wrote: »
    It's the steel that needs to be de certified not the welder.

    Your welder had to be suitably qualified and certified too.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #9
    Tempersteel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Tempersteel


    Sound very fishy to me.
    If he has his own welders on the books and they already already know how to weld it should cost them no more that a few hundred quid (at most) could be as little as 70 to sit a weld test and get certified.
    If on the other hand he plucks some lad of the street and decides to train him from scratch in the craft of welding, then you could start talking big money, probably not tho as all fabricators go through apprenticeships and welders go through fas,which means the tax payer picks up the bill for the training ( im a certified pipe welder ),

    I don't have to deal with anything to do with the CE marking where i work because that kind of thing just isn't in my job description (engineers would deal with it) but i find it almost impossible to see how the cost could jump that much. Unless the uncertified crowd producing the steel he was going to use for the original price were cut price cowboys.

    Oh and uncertified welders are most certainly avoided, way two much that can go wrong


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    #10
    wirehairmax
    Registered Users Posts: 678 ✭✭✭wirehairmax


    kceire wrote: »
    Probably not, but it might do away with builder doing extensive works to homes without advice from an engineer. Pulling out walls left right and centre and saying "agh sure a 200mm bean will do there" and making no allowance for connections, bearing etc
    Or the clients who are too miserable, mean and thick to pay professional fees for proper design and supervision!


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    #11
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Tempersteel wrote: »
    Sound very fishy to me.
    If he has his own welders on the books and they already already know how to weld it should cost them no more that a few hundred quid (at most) could be as little as 70 to sit a weld test and get certified.


    Not while holly is green is that number correct. We've just had 4 welders qualified, and between test material, inspections and coupon testing, it has cost €15k. Now that's for more than just steel welding, so allowing for multiple materials you need to allow for approx. €1200 per welder per material to get welder quals.

    And that cost has to be added to the cost of work produced. And add in the cost of your Eng working to new CE standards and the paperwork, then yes, building is going up in price.

    Whether it 'doubles' it depends on the size of the job. Double sounds a bit much, but the smaller the job, the higher the cost, per kg produced.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #12
    SuperTortoise
    Registered Users Posts: 2,996 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    The rules and regulations described by the OP have been in existence for as long as I've been in the game, it's only recently that they have started to be enforced!

    It's up to the workshop producing the steel to ensure both the steel and the welder used to weld it are stamped and coded, it's the certs for the materials and the procedure that are expensive not the codings for the actual guy welding it.
    A coding for a fillet or butt weld can be got for ~€150 ish


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    #13
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    SuperTortoise wrote: »
    The rules and regulations described by the OP have been in existence for as long as I've been in the game, it's only recently that they have started to be enforced!

    It's up to the workshop producing the steel to ensure both the steel and the welder used to weld it are stamped and coded, it's the certs for the materials and the procedure that are expensive not the codings for the actual guy welding it.
    A coding for a fillet or butt weld can be got for ~€150 ish

    You have to have weld procedures written as part of FPC, inspected, traceable material bought, do the test - witnessed by a suitably qualified person - then have the test coupon tested to destruction by a Notified Body.

    Don't forget the steel had to be stamped and the design certified as well.

    €150 wouldn't pay for the diesel and phonecalls for the process...

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #14
    SuperTortoise
    Registered Users Posts: 2,996 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    galwaytt wrote: »
    You have to have weld procedures written as part of FPC, inspected, traceable material bought, do the test - witnessed by a suitably qualified person - then have the test coupon tested to destruction by a Notified Body.

    Don't forget the steel had to be stamped and the design certified as well.

    €150 wouldn't pay for the diesel and phonecalls for the process...

    I already said the procedures are expensive, the codings for the welder are not, I could walk into any number of test centres and sit a test that would qualify me to weld for the OP scenario, which sounds like a few plates welded to the end of a few beams.

    I don't see why a workshop would need to draw up an entirely new procedure for a job that sounds as simple as the OP, procedures can be reused so long as the materials and process remains the same can they not?
    I have no doubt that these procedures cost many thousands of euro but these costs are passed onto many different clients through the lifetime of the procedure not on every single job unless every job is bespoke.


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    #15
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    SuperTortoise wrote: »
    I already said the procedures are expensive, the codings for the welder are not, I could walk into any number of test centres and sit a test that would qualify me to weld for the OP scenario, which sounds like a few plates welded to the end of a few beams.

    I don't see why a workshop would need to draw up an entirely new procedure for a job that sounds as simple as the OP, procedures can be reused so long as the materials and process remains the same can they not?
    I have no doubt that these procedures cost many thousands of euro but these costs are passed onto many different clients through the lifetime of the procedure not on every single job unless every job is bespoke.


    "sounds like", "I dont' see why" - indeed.

    I don't doubt your ability to actually weld - that is not the issue at hand.

    As for amortising the cost over a number of jobs - yes, that's true. But can you tell me how much work is coming down the line, and when, and therefore when the cost will be recouped ?

    I've already said it shouldn't have doubled things, but there's no doubting it's increasing cost to the customer.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #16
    Tempersteel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Tempersteel


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Not while holly is green is that number correct. We've just had 4 welders qualified, and between test material, inspections and coupon testing, it has cost €15k. Now that's for more than just steel welding, so allowing for multiple materials you need to allow for approx. €1200 per welder per material to get welder quals.

    And that cost has to be added to the cost of work produced. And add in the cost of your Eng working to new CE standards and the paperwork, then yes, building is going up in price.

    Whether it 'doubles' it depends on the size of the job. Double sounds a bit much, but the smaller the job, the higher the cost, per kg produced.

    Well ya got ripped off then, Sry.


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    #17
    Tempersteel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Tempersteel


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Not while holly is green is that number correct. We've just had 4 welders qualified, and between test material, inspections and coupon testing, it has cost €15k. Now that's for more than just steel welding, so allowing for multiple materials you need to allow for approx. €1200 per welder per material to get welder quals.

    And that cost has to be added to the cost of work produced. And add in the cost of your Eng working to new CE standards and the paperwork, then yes, building is going up in price.

    Whether it 'doubles' it depends on the size of the job. Double sounds a bit much, but the smaller the job, the higher the cost, per kg produced.

    .


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    #18
    Miname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭Miname


    Job costs are rising fairly sharpish at the moment this lads probably trying to pull back a few quid and using this as a covering point. It's probably easier than turning around saying I need a tenner a day more per trade. I use two different coded welders and neithers prices were inflated since they became coded. It's regulation and if you want to stay welding you have to be coded simple as.


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    #19
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Tempersteel wrote: »
    Well ya got ripped off then, Sry.

    ....in your opinion. We've been doing this type of work for several generations here, and I also have a ASME certified weld inspector in the family, so I know exactly what I got, what was done for the money, and what value I got.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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