Suffering... explain yourself God.

indioblack

frag420 wrote: »

So what your saying is that the great God who created all we have before us both in the past and into the future has a get out of jail free card!!

Surely he should realise by now that he has made a mistake and time he grew a pair, admitted his mistake and corrected it. What if I left a few guns, knives and some poison in a school and a couple of teenagers got their hands on them and either killed themselves or each other? Can I just say that its their fault, they have there own free will and its nothing to do with me?

I would have more respect for a God that would admit their mistake and correct it than one that hides behind mystery and relies on humans to make up excuses on his behalf!!

This is the problem - the Christian God cannot make mistakes. Yet he gives his creation the capability of error.
A poster introduced me to Theodicy - I thought it had something to do with theodolites!(I did!)
As in the thread on atheism and the existence of God, I suspect that it comes down to speculation on the motivations of believers in believing - and the motivation of a creator as well.

antiskeptic

indioblack wrote: »

Even the operation of free will, if it can be explained against an omnipotent God, is functioning within the confines of God's creation.

God is responsible for permitting free will expression. But not for the actual acts perpetrated by those free wills - except in a one-step removed way.

Further, if the world has fallen away from God it has done so within the parameters God has set for existence.

Indeed. God made that a possible option so he holds a secondary, removed, responsibility. Primary responsibility falls the the wills directing events. Us.

Galway K9

From an official stand point, do christians believe in an interventionist god?

homer911

frag420 wrote: »

Does the truth hurt? Surely someone questioning gods lack of compassion to humans can't rock your strong faith in her......can it?

And so what if you have not seen some names here before, what is your point, are non Christian opinions not valid? Christians dont have the monopoly on morals, people were moral long before Christianity came along.

If you read the original post, it was directed at Christians. If posters emerge out of the woodwork to respond, there is no previous evidence to suggest that they are in fact Christians. Therefore my comment was completely relevant, especially when the comments could be viewed as questionable in a Christian context. The comment was not directed at any specific poster, nor did it state that posters were not Christians

frag420

homer911 wrote: »

If you read the original post, it was directed at Christians. If posters emerge out of the woodwork to respond, there is no previous evidence to suggest that they are in fact Christians. Therefore my comment was completely relevant, especially when the comments could be viewed as questionable in a Christian context. The comment was not directed at any specific poster, nor did it state that posters were not Christians

Fair enough. However I have not come out of the woodwork, I view this part of boards regularly as I have an interest in peoples beliefs and how they justify explain their belief and faith in a God that has a get out of jail free card when it comes to the behaviour of his apparent children on earth.

The OP also asked in his OP "Have you Christians any real answer that doesn't involve empty platitudes? "

I or anyone has yet to see a real answer without defending a defenceless God. Why can't God just step in and stop all the heartache happening around the world? If the leader of a country (and there are many examples, Gods fault??) allows their people to suffer and does nothing about it then they must be held accountable, surely God must beheld accountable?
When children commit a crime the parents are sometimes blamed as they are the perpetrators parents, but the children have free will don't they?

I call on God to man up and do something, if he really cared for his vast creation surely he should do something to make it right eh??

porsche boy

DunnoKiddo wrote: »

I work in the church. If questioning undermines faith, then that's a sad state of affairs for Christianity.

I would rather not know pleasure, if it means another person suffers.

Sorry about the world in general.

I fear Christianity is a lost cause in Ireland. A very generational devide has occurred with far more people acknowledging spiritual agnosticism as a replacement for actual god fearing Christianity.

Either way, what about the suffering the Church has caused over the last century in this country such as the Magdeline laundrys and the continued sexual abuse scandals or the Tuam babies scandal?

am946745

Deranged96 wrote: »

Religion soothes only the religious. But let's leave it to them, if it works for them, and try not to undermine their faith.

I'm sure a more intelligent answer to the question you pose, rather than "God has his reasons", would be that we only know pleasure by comparison to pain... We can only know paradise in heaven by suffering on earth.

Sorry about your friend.

Since this is posted in the Christianity forum, I give a Christian view.

We are not religious, We are Christians. We follow a person. Christ. Not an ideology or a concept. A Person. Alive today hundreds of Churchs around the world.

We will all Suffer in this work. There is no way of getting away from the suffering of this work. It is universal. We don't turn off the lights to suffering, we walk along with our Lord,.. with the Person we belief in . That is the Christian answer to suffering in THIS forum.

If you want the Atheist answer to suffer. then go to their forum.

J C

frag420 wrote: »

So what your saying is that the great God who created all we have before us both in the past and into the future has a get out of jail free card!!

Surely he should realise by now that he has made a mistake and time he grew a pair, admitted his mistake and corrected it. What if I left a few guns, knives and some poison in a school and a couple of teenagers got their hands on them and either killed themselves or each other? Can I just say that its their fault, they have there own free will and its nothing to do with me?

I would have more respect for a God that would admit their mistake and correct it than one that hides behind mystery and relies on humans to make up excuses on his behalf!!

God has given us free-will and its absolute ... unlike the very limited and highly circumscribed 'freedoms' accorded us by society, for example.

How would you propose that God would address evil whilst still granting us free will?
... or do you think He should simply lobotimise everyone and turn us into 'perfect' little robots incapable of either love or hate ... good or evil?

J C

indioblack wrote: »

This is the problem - the Christian God cannot make mistakes. Yet he gives his creation the capability of error.

He has given us the free will to choose good or evil ... love or hate.
True freedom allows us the ability to be wrong as well as right ... to do evil as well as good.

The alternative is to create a bunch of robots doing only good/right ... but they won't have any freedom.

The question comes down to whether we want freedom or not ... and God has decided this question for us ... in favour of freedom ... and I think He has made a good 'call' on this one.

J C

Galway K9 wrote: »

From an official stand point, do christians believe in an interventionist god?

God can intervene, when He deems it necessary ... but, in general, He restricts His interventions, as one would expect with an omnipotent God ... who has granted free-will.

indioblack

J C wrote: »

He has given us the free will to choose good or evil ... love or hate.
True freedom allows us the ability to be wrong as well as right ... to do evil as well as good.

The alternative is to create a bunch of robots doing only good/right ... but they won't have any freedom.

The question comes down to whether we want freedom or not ... and God has decided this question for us ... in favour of freedom ... and I think He has made a good 'call' on this one.

If we were robotic, in the sense you describe, we probably wouldn't know the difference between right and wrong. I should add "right and wrong" for whom? Sometimes it's subjective.
In the robotic example you made, I doubt if we would even know we were alive.
It's surely also the case that some people don't choose hate or evil - for some it just seems to come up with the rations.
In granting us this freedom God must surely be acknowledging either the existence of evil - or it's realisation in peoples exercise of free will.
As I've claimed in another forum, God must surely be reflected in his creation - all of it. Since, in the Christian tradition, he is the creator of everything, this must be true of all the consequences of his creation - including the consequences of granting us free will.

J C

indioblack wrote: »

If we were robotic, in the sense you describe, we probably wouldn't know the difference between right and wrong. I should add "right and wrong" for whom? Sometimes it's subjective.
In the robotic example you made, I doubt if we would even know we were alive.

... I agree ... and therin lies the rub ... you can't have love and goodness without the freedom to do the opposite.
... and without free-will we would cease to be alive in any menaingful sense of the word, as you have pointed out.

indioblack wrote: »

It's surely also the case that some people don't choose hate or evil - for some it just seems to come up with the rations.
In granting us this freedom God must surely be acknowledging either the existence of evil - or it's realisation in peoples exercise of free will.
As I've claimed in another forum, God must surely be reflected in his creation - all of it. Since, in the Christian tradition, he is the creator of everything, this must be true of all the consequences of his creation - including the consequences of granting us free will.

Dualism is a great heresy as it imputes both good and evil to an all-good God.
It is wrong because our all-good God has granted a good thing in free-will ... but how we use/abuse it may result in evil ... but also in good ... and which we do is our responsibility alone.

indioblack

J C wrote: »

... I agree ... and therin lies the rub ... you can't have love and goodness without the freedom to do the opposite.
... and without free-will we would cease to be alive in any menaingful sense of the word, as you have pointed out.


Dualism is a great heresy as it imputes both good and evil to an all-good God.
It is wrong because our all-good God has granted a good thing in free-will ... but how we use/abuse it may result in evil ... but also in good ... and which we do is our responsibility alone.

Not Dualism - simply the possible consequences of free will.
As you state you can't have the capability to choose "right" without having the freedom to choose "wrong".

J C

indioblack wrote: »

Not Dualism - simply the possible consequences of free will.
As you state you can't have the capability to choose "right" without having the freedom to choose "wrong".

I agree.
... and that's the expanation for the presence of evil in an all-good Creation by an all-good God.
... and that's the explantion for suffering ... that God doesn't need to explain Himself about.

indioblack

J C wrote: »

I agree.
... and that's the expanation for the presence of evil in an all-good Creation by an all-good God.
... and that's the explantion for suffering ... that God doesn't need to explain Himself about.

An interesting reply.
As an often uncomfortable agnostic, it occasionally occurs to me that if there is a God he's probably not in the business of explaining every occurrence in the world - and an omnipotent god would not justify his actions, (or non-interventions), otherwise he would probably be disqualifying himself as omnipotent!
The Christian tradition hold that God can intervene in the affairs of the world - and it would be another debate as to how often this happens.
The physical, mechanical world continues - with observable cause and effect.
If this is the realm of the Christian God, then all that we perceive has to be his doing. I am not referring to a God of good and evil here.
I simply say again that if there is a God it is for us to redefine our perception of him.
Or the question posed by this thread will be asked again.

J C

indioblack wrote: »

An interesting reply.
As an often uncomfortable agnostic, it occasionally occurs to me that if there is a God he's probably not in the business of explaining every occurrence in the world - and an omnipotent god would not justify his actions, (or non-interventions), otherwise he would probably be disqualifying himself as omnipotent!
The Christian tradition hold that God can intervene in the affairs of the world - and it would be another debate as to how often this happens.
The physical, mechanical world continues - with observable cause and effect.
If this is the realm of the Christian God, then all that we perceive has to be his doing. I am not referring to a God of good and evil here.
I simply say again that if there is a God it is for us to redefine our perception of him.
Or the question posed by this thread will be asked again.

A thoughtful and very insightful post.
Thanks indioblack.

noelfitz

I am interested in religion and appreciate being here.
The problem of suffering is huge, and there are no easy answers. But to discuss this issue I would like to hear less emotional and confrontational language.

Several partial answers may exist, but do they seem glib for one suffering? I have heard someone say the problems emerge since we view things for our own perspective, not that of God's.

It may be useful to realize we do not know everything. Cardinal Newman said we may not know things in this life, but we will in the next.

In summary the answer is not known, and we should treat others with respect.

frag420

J C wrote: »

God has given us free-will and its absolute ... unlike the very limited and highly circumscribed 'freedoms' accorded us by society, for example.

How would you propose that God would address evil whilst still granting us free will?
... or do you think He should simply lobotimise everyone and turn us into 'perfect' little robots incapable of either love or hate ... good or evil?

God can intervene, when He deems it necessary ... but, in general, He restricts His interventions, as one would expect with an omnipotent God ... who has granted free-will.

But surely the very limited free will you put at the feet of society are all part of Gods plan right as he gave us that free will? So in essence he has made a mistake!!

As for intervention? You say God can intervene when he deems it necessary but he restricts his interventions? Is that not just God chickening out? What must happen before God intervenes? How many wars must we endure, how many time must innocent children be raped, orphaned etc before the all loving God intervenes? Are you happy to support a God that lies back and watches a grown man sodomise a child or a man hacking the head of another human in the name of a God? Are you really comfortable with this?

God has not restricted his interventions at all because he has never intervened to help humanity, not once!! If you have proof to the contrary and I mean real physical proof then I am all ears....

antiskeptic

indioblack wrote: »

As an often uncomfortable agnostic, it occasionally occurs to me that if there is a God he's probably not in the business of explaining every occurrence in the world - and an omnipotent god would not justify his actions, (or non-interventions), otherwise he would probably be disqualifying himself as omnipotent!

My understanding is that we will come to see the justness and appropriateness of God's actions and interventions (and non-interventions). But not until the whole thing is wrapped up! The damned, for instance, will be accepting of their sentence being able to see how it was they came to earn the judgment handed down.

This position is based on faith (a faith founded both on an understanding of God's actions as revealed in the Bible and on personal experience as opposed to blind faith).

Justice seen to be done by all will vindicate God and God has an interest in being seen to be just.

If this is the realm of the Christian God, then all that we perceive has to be his doing. I am not referring to a God of good and evil here.
I simply say again that if there is a God it is for us to redefine our perception of him.

It is for God to aid us in coming to a correct perception of him. Otherwise we risk making a god in own image and likeness (witness, for example, folk decrying God's judgements as if he was just another person, beholden to obeying rules he sets for us (such as prohibiting the taking of life)

DunnoKiddo

J C wrote: »

God can intervene, when He deems it necessary ... but, in general, He restricts His interventions, as one would expect with an omnipotent God ... who has granted free-will.

Therein lies my dilemna... At what point does a "loving" deity deem it necessary to intervene in tragic circumstances or in an innocents suffering? Not soon enough, according to my empathetical heart. I am sure it was not my friends free-will to be cut-down in the cruel way they were.

Sorry, I am still looking at things thru the spectacles of heartache.

J C

DunnoKiddo wrote: »

Therein lies my dilemna... At what point does a "loving" deity deem it necessary to intervene in tragic circumstances or in an innocents suffering? Not soon enough, according to my empathetical heart. I am sure it was not my friends free-will to be cut-down in the cruel way they were.

Sorry, I am still looking at things thru the spectacles of heartache.

You have my absolute love and deep sorrow at your loss. You and your friends are in my thoughts and prayers.

Yes life can seem very tough sometimes ... and it is very Human to question God when terrible things happen to good people that we love.

I too dearly wish that God would intervene to prevent suffering and pain and death ... but who am I to question God ... I'm only in possession of a tiny fraction of the 'big picture' that He has access to.

For example, I'm very conscious of the dangers of physical immortality in the hands of a fallen Creation in which evil has irreversibly entered.

On the one hand, I would embrace the prospect of physical imortality for myself and the many honourable and good people in the World ... but then the prospect of immortality for a Hitler or a Stalin scares me to the core ... and we cannot have one without the other.

DunnoKiddo

J C wrote: »

You have my absolute love and deep sorrow at your loss. You and your friends are in my thoughts and prayers.

Yes life can seem very tough sometimes ... and it is very Human to question God when terrible things happen to good people that we love.

I too dearly wish that God would intervene to prevent suffering and pain and death ... but who am I to question God ... I'm only in possession of a tiny fraction of the 'big picture' that He has access to.

For example, I'm very conscious of the dangers of physical immortality in the hands of a fallen Creation in which evil has irreversibly entered.

On the one hand, I would embrace the prospect of physical imortality for myself and the many honourable and good people in the World ... but then the prospect of immortality for a Hitler or a Stalin scares me to the core ... and we cannot have one without the other.

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful perspective, JC.

Turtwig

Thread temporarily locked for review. Certain posts may be carded, deleted or moved.

Edit: reopened. A reminder this is not a thread for debating all aspects of Christianity. This certainly isn't a thread for creationism discussion (Thank you JC for steering clear of them ) Lord knows we've had enough of those! This most certainly isn't the thread for whataboutery (what about the magdalene laundries?). It most definitely isn't the thread for parody posts (Crom)

hinault

Galway K9 wrote: »

From an official stand point, do christians believe in an interventionist god?

The Life and Ministry of Jesus Christ suggests so.

J C

hinault wrote: »

The Life and Ministry of Jesus Christ suggests so.

The Old Testament indicates that God often directly intervened at that time ... but since Jesus Christ founded the Church and we enterd the Church era God's interaction with the World seem to be largely via the Church.

noelfitz

Some time ago I complained about 'glib' contributions here (# 68). But recently contributions here have been very considered and reflect deep thinking, as well as personal pain in some cases.
Thank you to those who have contributed with such sincerity and feeling.

hinault

J C wrote: »

The Old Testament indicates that God often directly intervened at that time ... but since Jesus Christ founded the Church and we enterd the Church era God's interaction with the World seem to be largely via the Church.

An interesting analysis.

Jesus instituted the earthly Church, with the Holy Trinity being at the centre of that Church.
Just before the end of His earthly ministry was completed, Jesus told humanity that the Holy Ghost - the third part of that Holy Trinity - would enter in to this existence.

takola

OP, I'm sorry for the suffering of yourself and your friend.

I spent quite a few years asking the same question, and I think it's necessary to do so. I lost my faith for a while there and became a rather bitter 'atheist' (or at least I liked to call myself that). I have found through some pretty painful reflection over the years that there are two kinds of suffering; the one caused by people and the other by nature or God or 'bad luck' or all the other myriad of names it would have. Of course, when we're angry it's all caused by God, right?

Most people have experience both kinds of suffering. I certainly have. So yes, we ask ourselves how would God allow a child to raped, or go hungry. Why do wars exist, people suffer starvation, concentration camps, mass genocide? Over time I've stopped thinking about suffering as being 'allowed' by God. It's allowed by people. That's not an easy answer, it doesn't comfort anyone, makes nothing better. But it's the answer I have. By accepting that answer, I can allow myself to rely on God as an ally in hard times. Whether that means that I need to scream at the sky with overwhelming rage or seek comfort in the idea that something or one cares for me, even when I'm at my worst.. either way, God can take it. If we can take the suffering then I figure he can take being the villain in the story for as long as we need him to. And when the rage subsides and we need rest or comfort, he can be that too. Because that's what God's love is, in my eyes anyway. Rather than a being that is going to actively reach into our lives to change things (which would completely negate 'free will', and even if he did, how does he choose who to favour if he loves everyone equally regardless of sinfulness? Isn't that the definition of the Christian God?). I figure God is the parent that sticks around to be whatever we need him to be. Even if that is non-existent for a time.

The other kind of suffering is less easy to explain away. My mother suffers from a rare form of dementia that meant by the time I was 17, she'd progressed past the point of familiarity and by 24 she'd lost the ability to walk or talk, her ability to swallow was impaired, her muscles were atrophying and she lived in a kind of vacancy that never quite let us know if she was conscious or recognised us any longer. The first time I visited her in a nursing home was particularly difficult for me. She was 52 years old, sat in a room with many elderly alzheimers patients who stared vacantly at the world around them. Nobody spoke, or tried to interact with each other. They just... sat and stared at the walls. And I remember telling my brother as we left and I was trying to control the tears that we must have done something horrific to deserve such a punishment from God. He said to me, 'No, you can't think of it like that. It's not a punishment. She was tired and it wasn't about punishment. It wasn't her time, but she was tired so this was the only way to he had to let her rest.' At the time I suggested that letting her walk under a bus would have been more compassionate. And perhaps it would have. But over the years I've come to appreciate perspective. Yes, my brothers take on things will, to some people, be utterly ridiculous. I know at the time, it seemed so to me. But it allowed him to deal with something beyond our understanding in a way that was comforting for him, and didn't make any enemies for him. I chose to look at my mother's illness in a way that encouraged my anger and despair, and he chose to take comfort in the idea that she was loved even if she was ill.

I'm sorry, this post is rambly, but hopefully my point is coherent. I like to think that God is what we want him to be and when looking at suffering, perspective is crucial... and changeable. If you need to be angry, he can play the villain. When you can't hold that anger any longer, he'll still be there to be what you need next.

I hope you find some comfort in your suffering, and some peace for yourself and for your friend.

DunnoKiddo

thank you for the thoughtful reply takola

dr.fuzzenstein

If there is a God, he/she/it (sticking with he from now on, simpler) just set up the pieces and pressed the start button. If we are here for a reason and if indeed we are eternal souls, then it would have to be to experience consciousness, time, mortality, friendship, loss and (above all) caring for each other.
We are kind of making a mess out of that last one. Just a disclaimer, I am not a Christian (as such), but also not an atheist entirely. The FSM in my sig is for entirely different reasons.
If there is a God and if our souls are eternal, our existence here is a blip, but far from meaningless. Now hold on, this next bit is a little out there. There are theories that we are fallen angels who fought on the side of Lucifer (an arch angel) and were cast into hell and we now have the chance to get back, but the way back is not easy. You will have to spend a few lifetimes as a mortal and eat large slices of humble pie. Did you know that a demon is a fallen angel, but also a demon is a soul that has not yet become human. That means that the difference between an angel, a demon and a human soul is-nothing. We are merely fallen angels working our way back to heaven. So far for the theory of why we are here and I think it is too magnificent not to be true.
BTW: I don't believe in eternal damnation, this would undermine the entire concept of love and forgiveness. This theory, whilst interesting, should not dictate anyone's life.
Very large disclaimer:
This does NOT mean that bad things happen to people because they are bad souls. Sometimes it is just the "luck" of the draw. What happens to you is a valuable learning experience. The pieces sometimes fall where they may and sometimes a hapless being gets in the way. You have to look past one single, brief lifetime.
Yes, the way we come into this world, our time spent here and the nature of our departure is sometimes not great. But in the grand scheme of things it is not all that entirely relevant. What IS relevant is what we learn and what we take with us, i.e. our experiences. Yes, bad things can happen to your body and God will not usually reach down from the sky and scoop you up to save you from bad things, but in the end it's your experiences, thoughts, memories and relationships to others that make you, not this crude bag of meat you're dragging around with you.
I think the problem is that we have focused on death way too much. We are scared to live, in case we die to soon. All we want to do is to live for as long as possible, scared that anything might happen to us or the people around us. God does not mollycoddle people, we are not pets, but we are here to experience something unique and important-mortality.

But the most important thing in this for me:
We are here to learn. (yes, I keep saying it). So don't be afraid to do this. We will always lose friends along the way and find new ones. I once had a very close and dear friend and I was just beginning to re-establish contact with him, I had just missed a phonecall from him and I kept meaning to ring him back until a few weeks later his wife rang me devastated, telling me he had died in a motorbike accident. It is very saddening and heartbreaking and I will never get back that chance to talk to him. But I'm afraid even though it's of little consolation and sounds cold, life goes on. It is another scar I have to bear, along with the many other people I have lost, but they wouldn't want me to be sad. If I go one day, I want the people to remember me with fondness, but then go on and live their lives.
My particular friend lived a very good life, he managed to pack a lot more into it than most people who live to be 90. His end was sudden and unfortunate and way too early, but he wouldn't and couldn't have done it any other way. It's not how long we live, it's how we live.
Losing my brother very early on nearly broke me and losing my father in very bad circumstances (dementia) was incredibly hard as well. But it taught me that no-one and nothing lasts forever. You have to appreciate it while it's there. The only constant is change. To me they are not gone, they have just moved on.
I don't subscribe to the notion that pleasure and pain have to balance each other out, but I can tell you now there's plenty of both. With a bit of luck there will be more pleasure than pain. And love, cake, pizza, sunsets, beach holidays and beer.
How can I take everything I said and square it up with my signature? Surely it is a contradiction? Absolutely not. I am a spiritual person, a lot of my theories are a bit out there (I have not even shared them under this alias so far, I will get some stick in motors), I'm still working on the answer to life, the universe and everything, so naturally I also believe to take spirituality and force it into the confines of organised religion is perverted and wrong.
Remember, everything you hear and read comes from humans, including this bit so skepticism is always the order of the day.
So, life and death may not be as serious as we think, but life is far from meaningless IMO. Remember your loved ones with fondness and realise they want you to have a good life.

And what if there is nothing, no God, no sense, no nothing? Well, then we can't blame him, it's all down to us and physics. We have to get back up and make the most of it.
Whatever the answer, we just have to soldier on. And appreciate the beauty of the world, with all it's beauty and ugliness. It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness (Yes, an old chestnut, but it happens to be true).
It doesn't always work, you can't be chirpy all the time (that would be just wrong) and I do sometimes get very heartily sick of it all and wish I could just either move on myself (I feel I've spend too many centuries here) or just move to a deserted island and never have to see another soul again. But we all get that.
An important trick: Don't wish for things you don't want. (i.e. I hope it's not going to rain today), but wish for things you do want (I hope there's going to be sunshine today)* You will attract the things you give energy to, so only give energy to the things you want.
In short, life is tough, but also beautiful. Keep the faith (whichever one) and hope it won't all be in vain.


*Disclaimer: May not work in Ireland

indioblack

DunnoKiddo wrote: »

That's the demand God will have to answer to the masses about.

Have you Christians any real answer that doesn't involve empty platitudes?

Fair warning, you're directing your opinions to an embittered soul who lost a friend in a most painful way... and in the past week has been preached at about denying marital equality, yet real issues like human and creature suffering exists enmasse 24-7, are summarily ignored and the only answers proffered are things like "God has his reasons" ...I don't wanna know a God that could possibly tolerate such inhumanity by and on his supposed children and creations. Shame on such a cold-hearted being! "Father" indeed - pushaw!

@SW... sorry for venting in your forum... ban me if you must, but I need some answers.

I came back to this thread because it troubled me that in my desire to pursue my agnostic hobby-horse I overlooked your loss.
So may I, belatedly, offer my sorrow at the death of your friend.
Your pain may serve a purpose - but, at the moment, I can't think what that purpose might be.
Hopefully the condolences of posters in this thread may alleviate your distress in some small way.

Call Me Jimmy

takola wrote: »

OP, I'm sorry for the suffering of yourself and your friend.

I spent quite a few years asking the same question, and I think it's necessary to do so. I lost my faith for a while there and became a rather bitter 'atheist' (or at least I liked to call myself that). I have found through some pretty painful reflection over the years that there are two kinds of suffering; the one caused by people and the other by nature or God or 'bad luck' or all the other myriad of names it would have. Of course, when we're angry it's all caused by God, right?

Most people have experience both kinds of suffering. I certainly have. So yes, we ask ourselves how would God allow a child to raped, or go hungry. Why do wars exist, people suffer starvation, concentration camps, mass genocide? Over time I've stopped thinking about suffering as being 'allowed' by God. It's allowed by people. That's not an easy answer, it doesn't comfort anyone, makes nothing better. But it's the answer I have. By accepting that answer, I can allow myself to rely on God as an ally in hard times. Whether that means that I need to scream at the sky with overwhelming rage or seek comfort in the idea that something or one cares for me, even when I'm at my worst.. either way, God can take it. If we can take the suffering then I figure he can take being the villain in the story for as long as we need him to. And when the rage subsides and we need rest or comfort, he can be that too. Because that's what God's love is, in my eyes anyway. Rather than a being that is going to actively reach into our lives to change things (which would completely negate 'free will', and even if he did, how does he choose who to favour if he loves everyone equally regardless of sinfulness? Isn't that the definition of the Christian God?). I figure God is the parent that sticks around to be whatever we need him to be. Even if that is non-existent for a time.

The other kind of suffering is less easy to explain away. My mother suffers from a rare form of dementia that meant by the time I was 17, she'd progressed past the point of familiarity and by 24 she'd lost the ability to walk or talk, her ability to swallow was impaired, her muscles were atrophying and she lived in a kind of vacancy that never quite let us know if she was conscious or recognised us any longer. The first time I visited her in a nursing home was particularly difficult for me. She was 52 years old, sat in a room with many elderly alzheimers patients who stared vacantly at the world around them. Nobody spoke, or tried to interact with each other. They just... sat and stared at the walls. And I remember telling my brother as we left and I was trying to control the tears that we must have done something horrific to deserve such a punishment from God. He said to me, 'No, you can't think of it like that. It's not a punishment. She was tired and it wasn't about punishment. It wasn't her time, but she was tired so this was the only way to he had to let her rest.' At the time I suggested that letting her walk under a bus would have been more compassionate. And perhaps it would have. But over the years I've come to appreciate perspective. Yes, my brothers take on things will, to some people, be utterly ridiculous. I know at the time, it seemed so to me. But it allowed him to deal with something beyond our understanding in a way that was comforting for him, and didn't make any enemies for him. I chose to look at my mother's illness in a way that encouraged my anger and despair, and he chose to take comfort in the idea that she was loved even if she was ill.

I'm sorry, this post is rambly, but hopefully my point is coherent. I like to think that God is what we want him to be and when looking at suffering, perspective is crucial... and changeable. If you need to be angry, he can play the villain. When you can't hold that anger any longer, he'll still be there to be what you need next.

I hope you find some comfort in your suffering, and some peace for yourself and for your friend.

Sorry for your suffering! I'm just wondering why you differentiated between people and nature in the first place?

takola

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Sorry for your suffering! I'm just wondering why you differentiated between people and nature in the first place?

I guess I'd consider nature beyond our control, yet people's actions are within their control and our reactions to them are within ours? Does that make sense?

Terrlock

We can try and blame God or anything else for the suffering going on in the World.

However much of the worlds suffering could be alleviated if instead of trying to find someone, or some being to blame. We faced the problems and worked together to solve them.

Much of the reason why their is so much suffering is because of how much people hate each other.

Not only that but there is so much greed, people like there rich lifestyles while the turn a blind eye towards those who can't afford to feed themselves.

Instead of looking to blame a problem on something can we not just start by helping others out.

It's People not God who are largely responsible for suffering of others.

indioblack

Terrlock wrote: »

We can try and blame God or anything else for the suffering going on in the World.

However much of the worlds suffering could be alleviated if instead of trying to find someone, or some being to blame. We faced the problems and worked together to solve them.

Much of the reason why their is so much suffering is because of how much people hate each other.

Not only that but there is so much greed, people like there rich lifestyles while the turn a blind eye towards those who can't afford to feed themselves.

Instead of looking to blame a problem on something can we not just start by helping others out.

It's People not God who are largely responsible for suffering of others.

I would say that there would still be suffering in this world even if people ceased to be greedy and stopped hating each other.
Unless you think that this world is "fallen" and it's workings are the result of man's behaviour/sin.
If that is so, and we someday reach a point where our negative impulses are eradicated/controlled - would existence return to it's state before the "fall"? Perhaps that's being too simplistic.
If there is a god creator, then we live within a system ordained by him.
We function within the parameters of the physical world - and since this involves both positive and negative actions, (as we perceive them), it's hardly surprising that we should exhibit these actions ourselves in our own lives.
On a positive note, this awareness of experience can guide us to what we should be doing. It can be no bad thing to accept that we should try to be less greedy and hateful.

DunnoKiddo

Maybe we are all just part of some massive experiment, or a bet some Gods made with one another... And all we can do is get thru whatever way we can, cus they are sure keeping quiet about the plan... then we die... and death forces us to move on, full stop.

Terrlock

Technically if there is life after death then we are living in a virtual reality.

Then what we experience is only virtual suffering not real suffering.

So then we die, we go all high and mighty to God and ask him to explain himself as to why you had to suffer so much....he then replies...well actually it's just a virtual test to see if you are on the Good side of Life, or on the Bad side of Life.

Do you Pass based on God's Standard?

antiskeptic

indioblack wrote: »

I would say that there would still be suffering in this world even if people ceased to be greedy and stopped hating each other.

Indeed, the Christian perspective being that the Fall spread like a cancer to all of man and all he had dominion over. Thus sickness, thus storms

If that is so, and we someday reach a point where our negative impulses are eradicated/controlled - would existence return to it's state before the "fall"? Perhaps that's being too simplistic.

The biblical account indicates that this world can't be made right. It's not in man's nature not to be greedy or hate and whatever about improvements that can be made, either through lost mans attempts to better himself or found mans being fashioned into better being through the work of the Holy Spirit, the trouble and strife will continue.

God's plan is to bring this world to an end as we know it and re-birth it and populate it with those who have, in this life, been reborn. The all new, singing/dancing Earth will be cured of all it's fallen ills.

As a side note, Christians won't be going to heaven as such, they'll be populating a new, redeemed Earth in which there will be no sin nor consequences of sin.

It can be no bad thing to accept that we should try to be less greedy and hateful.

Not that this in itself constitutes entry in the aforementioned new Earth. There is but one way.

indioblack

antiskeptic wrote: »

Indeed, the Christian perspective being that the Fall spread like a cancer to all of man and all he had dominion over. Thus sickness, thus storms




The biblical account indicates that this world can't be made right. It's not in man's nature not to be greedy or hate and whatever about improvements that can be made, either through lost mans attempts to better himself or found mans being fashioned into better being through the work of the Holy Spirit, the trouble and strife will continue.

God's plan is to bring this world to an end as we know it and re-birth it and populate it with those who have, in this life, been reborn. The all new, singing/dancing Earth will be cured of all it's fallen ills.

As a side note, Christians won't be going to heaven as such, they'll be populating a new, redeemed Earth in which there will be no sin nor consequences of sin.





Not that this in itself constitutes entry in the aforementioned new Earth. There is but one way.

You say the biblical account states that this world cannot be made right.
Why not? And, right for whom? God, presumably.
Therefore, God continues the world as it is - we are the result of that world - how many people would claim they were the cause of it?
The Biblical Fall happened millennia ago - so do we carry the burden of ancestral sin?
God is omnipotent. I'm not sure how he could be anything else in the Christian context.
Therefore he cannot err - only we can do that.
All the positive attributes belong to God - in the Christian tradition it can be no other way.
One of those attributes is justice.
God is just.
Therefore, the answer to suffering can only be that it is right and just.
The world is fallen - and we are the product of this world and we are therefore fallen too.
We obviously haven't consciously chosen to be fallen - we are simply the offspring of a sinful world.
Are we then as culpable as those who fell from grace millennia ago in the Bible story?
We have to be - else the error is God's - and, in the Christian belief, that cannot be.
So do we accept unmerited suffering?
Why not? In the New Testament story, Jesus did.
Just some thoughts that have been buzzing around in this old agnostic head of mine.
Incidentally, when I verbalised these thoughts to my Christian friend he agreed that God was just and therefore whatever happened to us in this world was also just.

King of the Hotcups

This week I had a real "Why God???" moment ... My sister who was 24 weeks pregnant gave birth to a still born little boy!

I felt myself starting to question God, but forced myself to stop! Everything has a reason, I just don't have the ability understand the reasons. I take solace in the fact that he never had to experience the cold harsh reality of living in a world that tries to do so without God. Instead, he is filing heaven with the sounds of his laughter!

2 Samuel 12:23 - But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.

bnt

This evening, the coast of Mexico - a predominantly Catholic country - is being lashed by a Category 5 Hurricane. Madre de Dios! :eek:

hinault

King of the Hotcups wrote: »

This week I had a real "Why God???" moment ... My sister who was 24 weeks pregnant gave birth to a still born little boy!

I felt myself starting to question God, but forced myself to stop! Everything has a reason, I just don't have the ability understand the reasons. I take solace in the fact that he never had to experience the cold harsh reality of living in a world that tries to do so without God. Instead, he is filing heaven with the sounds of his laughter!

2 Samuel 12:23 - But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.

I'm sorry for your loss and that of your sister.

My brother and his wife experienced a similar experience some years back.
Their baby daughter only managed to live 71 hours after she was born.
The child that they lost would be 7 now.

Her loss was like an earthquake for her parents and our family.

Your pain is raw now and that is understandable. However it may be a cliche but time brings healing and even some measure of understanding.

We can't know why these little ones are taken from us. There is an explanation but we can't see it. I know that in our case the little life that stayed with us for 71 hours brought great joy but terrible loss.

The priest at the service for her said something which made me think. He said that all parents want their little ones to be running around with them, but that this can't be in this case.
He went on to say that we have to try to trust that God has called these ones home because he wants them.

I don't know if this helps. It helped me to listen and meditate upon that thought.

brian_t

bnt wrote: »

This evening, the coast of Mexico - a predominantly Catholic country - is being lashed by a Category 5 Hurricane. Madre de Dios! :eek:

Just to update this:

The center of Patricia pushed inland on a track that spared Mexico's major cities from the worst damage.

Rainfall was heavy enough to cause flooding and mudslides, including a slide in the state of Michoacán that took a section of roadway out with it, injuring two people whose vehicle fell into the slide.

Patricia weakened even faster than it strengthened

From 4 p.m. Friday to 4 p.m. Saturday, Patricia's maximum sustained winds plummeted from 190 mph to 30 mph, a loss of 160 mph.

Perhaps even more jarring is the fact that Patricia went from a Category 5 hurricane at 7 p.m. CDT Friday to a remnant low only 21 hours later.

http://www.weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/hurricane-patricia-mexico-coast