Training cert. Requirements.

Cass

So the young lad turns 14 today. First thing he asks for is the FCA1 to apply for his training certificate. I already had it made out for him and now it's all signed up.

I'm used to doing my own FCA1 for both new and sub applications so i know what to fill in for each type of application. As i was doing it there were some sections where i thought "this doesn't need filling in" but done it anyway to avoid any delays or issues with the application. There were also things like the additional information sheet which reads much different to my own as there are not RFD sales receipts, and other factors normally attached to a full, "normal" application.


One thing has me, i suppose you could call it, concerned. The training license is by it's very nature designed for beginners. Whether they are young or older is somewhat irrelevant. However i've been talking to a few people over the last few weeks telling them how the young lad is excited to be getting his first license (albeit a training one). One lad told me when he done it he was told by his FO that he was "missing" his competency cert.

When he told me this my first thought was why. The idea of the cert is to allow an inexperienced or under 16 to train on a firearm, under the supervision of a competent person until such a time as they are old enough or competent enough to get their own license. So how and why in the hell would any Garda ask for a competency cert as it essentially negates the meaning of the training cert, and almost makes getting the license moot (not really but you get the idea of what i'[m saying).

IOW making someone under 16 (as anyone over 16 is more likely to go for the full license) do a competency course to apply for training cert, to me, seems redundant.


Was wondering have any of ye been through this, and if so were you asked for one, was it demanded of you, was the application refused until you got one. OR did you not bother with one, were never asked for one and got it fine?


Any opinions, guiding thoughts or advice welcomed.

Sparks

My best guess is that the super was never told from higher up the chain what the training cert actually is or what it was for; applicants are not supposed to be asked for proof of competency because the cert is inherently designed to be how you gain that competency...

Cass

Just back in from being with the FO.

As expected i was asked for the young lads competency course cert. I told him that asking for a competency cert for someone seeking a training cert goes against the very idea/meaning of the training cert. I explained that it was not him i was arguing with, as i know he is just asking for what the Super will no doubt demand.

He said he would send it on, but told me to expect it to come back seeking the cert. My reason for this thread, other than getting others experience, is to ask if there is some sort of precedent or law that i can cite as "here, this says so". Not so much a magic bullet, and not simply to be argumentative but this was slowly done to me whenever i was substituting firearms. More and more stuff was asked for until i eventually was submitting full applications for subs (rather than delay it by arguing my point). I then took a stance, and exercised what was needed as opposed to what they wanted and still got my sub.

IOW the first time they ask for it, it's an exception. Eventually the exception becomes the rule. Soon enough you are providing details that are not only unnecessary, but to a degree far outside the scope of what is needed for an application.

We've discussed before how the idea of a competency cert has become the rule instead of one option in a list of options to satisfy the criteria for competency. I thin a call to the FPU is in order come Monday.

meathstevie

Cass, I don't think there's any organisation involved in shooting sports in Ireland that will give any member or applicant member a competency reference without seeing and assessing their shooting. At under 14 that can't be done in a legal manner.

J.R.

Cass wrote: »

Just back in from being with the FO.

As expected i was asked for the young lads competency course cert. I told him that asking for a competency cert for someone seeking a training cert goes against the very idea/meaning of the training cert. I explained that it was not him i was arguing with, as i know he is just asking for what the Super will no doubt demand.

He said he would send it on, but told me to expect it to come back seeking the cert. My reason for this thread, other than getting others experience, is to ask if there is some sort of precedent or law that i can cite as "here, this says so". Not so much a magic bullet, and not simply to be argumentative but this was slowly done to me whenever i was substituting firearms. More and more stuff was asked for until i eventually was submitting full applications for subs (rather than delay it by arguing my point). I then took a stance, and exercised what was needed as opposed to what they wanted and still got my sub.

IOW the first time they ask for it, it's an exception. Eventually the exception becomes the rule. Soon enough you are providing details that are not only unnecessary, but to a degree far outside the scope of what is needed for an application.

We've discussed before how the idea of a competency cert has become the rule instead of one option in a list of options to satisfy the criteria for competency. I thin a call to the FPU is in order come Monday.

It doesn't say anything here about a competency test being a requirement

Ireland. 2006. ‘Part 5 Amendment of Firearms Act.’ Criminal Justice Act (2006); Section 28. Dublin: Irish Statute Book, Office of the Attorney General. 16 July.



Part 5 Amendment of Firearms Act

Section 28

(1) The Commissioner, on application and payment of the prescribed fee (if any), may issue to a person over 14 years of age a certificate (in this Act referred to as a "firearms training certificate") authorising the person to possess a firearm and ammunition (except a restricted firearm and restricted ammunition) only while --
(a) carrying and using the firearm for hunting or target shooting --
(i) under the supervision of a specified person over 18 years of age who holds a firearm certificate in respect of it, and
(ii) where the firearm is used for target shooting, on the premises of an authorised rifle or pistol club or at an authorised shooting range or other place that stands authorised under section 2(5) of this Act, and
(b) complying with such other conditions (if any) as the Commissioner may impose in the interests of public safety and security.

(2) Where the applicant is under 16 years of age, the application for a firearms training certificate shall be accompanied by the written consent of the applicant's parent or guardian.

Cass

Exactly my point JR.

The competency certs were meant for those without the ability to learn from others to complete a course and apply for a firearm cert. However due to it being the easy way out for An Gardaí it is now used 95% of the time and anyone without one is delayed or refused.

Now it has crept down to training certs which makes a mockery out of the cert itself. It's sole purpose is for a youth (mostly) to learn the safe handling skills they will need when they turn 16. I think i said it above but it's redundant and afaik not a requirement, hence cannot be used to refuse an application for a training certificate.

Heavy handed

My cousin wanted his first firearm albeit an air rifle and so at the age of 15 had all the relevant paper work filled and the compencecy course cert with parents consint, sent it in and was refused. I've held a firearms license for 10 years now so I'm not too familiar with the training cert side of things. Was the super right to refuse him or should he have had it granted

Cass

There is no guarantee to be granted a training certificate, however the training certificate "should" be easier because it's not a full license and the person seeking the training license must be under constant supervision of the fully licensed/competent person that owns the gun and should never have the gun on their own or at their own home.

Was a reason given as to why? Like a full license application a reason must be given in writing as to why it was refused. If you did not get this then i would seek it now.

Heavy handed

The reason for the refusal he got was he's too young to hold the training cert which makes no since because when he turns 16 he can apply for a full.

Cass

The training cert is for anyone, but is aimed at those over 14 and under 16 so the refusal is complete crap. Look at JR's post above. It's in law.

If he is still under 16 and wants it i'd re-apply. If this only happened recently then appeal the decision by first contacting the Super's office, explaining the error in the decision and see if they'll reconsider. If not then consider the full appeals process.

Heavy handed

Thanks cass I'll inform both him and his parents. We got a new super recently so that might explain the decision that was given.

Cass

Heavy handed wrote: »

We got a new super recently so that might explain the decision that was given.

Ignorance was the reason for the decision. Any Super that does not understand the most basic concept of a firearms training license is ignorant. Both for refusing on illegal grounds and for not taking the couple of minutes to research the decision before issuing it.

Witcher

Heavy handed wrote: »

The reason for the refusal he got was he's too young to hold the training cert which makes no since because when he turns 16 he can apply for a full.

Someone else, a parent or whoever presumably held a full licence for the rifle and he was trying to get a training licence on it too, correct?

BattleCorp

Heavy handed wrote: »

The reason for the refusal he got was he's too young to hold the training cert which makes no since because when he turns 16 he can apply for a full.

If he is over 14 or over, he is entitled to apply for a training cert. If he was refused a training cert on the grounds of being too young, then the Super made an error.

Maybe the Super didn't know the difference between a training certificate and a full licence.

If that is the case, then that's scandalous.

Heavy handed

He's going to reapply again next week. It's been 6 months since the last time he made the first application. That's for the info guys

Cass

If he is unsure of any aspect just post here. The lads will help out as they done for me above.

Heavy handed

Mush appreciated guys thanks for the help.